Vance Morris, business consultant and former Disney leader, shares expert insights on how brands can improve customer retention, form emotional connections with their audience, and sustainably grow through exceptional customer experience and loyalty strategies. Drawing from his unconventional journey and hands-on experience building businesses, he explains why many companies have a retention problem and are losing revenue after the first purchase due to weak or nonexistent post-purchase systems. He breaks down how Disney’s focus on emotional connection and repeat customers can be applied to businesses of any size. This episode highlights why discounts create false loyalty, how retention directly impacts profitability, and simple but powerful shifts that can turn one-time buyers into long-term advocates.
About Vance Morris
Vance Morris is a business consultant and customer experience expert who helps businesses stop losing revenue after the first sale by focusing on customer retention and loyalty. Vance comes from an unconventional background. From working as a security guard to becoming a leader at Disney and then rebuilding after bankruptcy, he brings a practical, experience-driven perspective to brand growth. He specializes in direct response marketing and engineered customer loyalty systems to turn one-time buyers into repeat, loyal customers, helping brands drive long-term profitability.
Most brands don’t have a traffic problem—they have a retention problem
Emotional connection is the key driver of repeat purchases and long-term loyalty
The post-purchase experience is where loyalty is either built or lost
Regular, non-salesy communication helps maintain valuable customer relationships
Retention is more cost-effective than acquisition and has a direct impact on profitability
Discounts create fake loyalty, while real loyalty comes from experience and consistent value over time
Interview Themes
How can I develop an emotional connection with my customers?
Emotional connections are created by showing the human side of your brand. Share your personality and your story through regular, non-salesy communication with your customers. The goal is to make customers feel like they know you personally instead of just perceiving you as a conventional ecommerce brand.
What are some practical ways to nurture relationships with existing customers?
After making a sale, stay in touch with your customers. The post-purchase experience is the perfect opportunity to leave a lasting impression on customers to make them want to come back for more. Follow up with helpful tips, how-to tutorials, testimonials, and other valuable content through email or even physical mail. Small, thoughtful touchpoints are what keeps your brand top of mind.
Why can discount offers be a harmful retention strategy?
Offering discounts is not a loyalty strategy—it’s bribery. If you train your customers to get used to regular promotions and discounted prices, they aren’t going to buy your products at a regular price. They’re going to wait until the next sale because they don’t associate your products with the full prices that you value them at. Although it may boost your short-term sales, discounts can hurt your profits in the long run.
What key metrics should I track to measure customer retention?
Focus on customer retention costs, customer acquisition costs, net promoter scores, and repeat purchase rates. These metrics will give you a good picture of how much it costs to attract customers and maintain strong relationships with them.
What are the benefits of having brand ambassadors?
Brand ambassadors help build trust between the brand and its customers because they are real users of your product. When customers see real people sharing their experiences with your product, it strengthens your brand’s credibility because it feels authentic and relatable. It builds social proof and pushes word-of-mouth growth. Overtime, brand ambassadors help expand a brand’s reach and drive growth.
Chapters
00:00 Understanding Customer Experience and Retention
06:34 The Disconnect in Customer Experience
11:41 The Importance of Emotional Connection
16:40 Retention as a Revenue Strategy
22:03 Building a Strong Response System
25:36 The Dangers of Discounting for Loyalty
27:46 Moment Zero: First Impressions Matter
29:52 Practical Steps for Improving Retention
31:47 Key Metrics for Tracking Retention
Transcript
Vance Morris
It’s the emotional connection and that's really what drives Disney. If you went to the park today, you went to Magic Kingdom, 80% of the people in the park right now have been there before. It's only 20% new. So I figure, if that ratio is good enough for Disney, it's good enough for me and for my clients. So that's the goal we're trying to hit is 80% customers.
You know, I mentioned this emotional connection thing and Disney does it very well. I mean, they have movies, they have characters, they have theme parks. I mean, when you drive into Disney World down in Orlando, there's the big arch over top and “Welcome to Walt Disney World”. And you know you've arrived and you start to get goosebumps and the kids get excited and all that stuff. That's the feeling we want people to have about our business. But we don't have Cinderella castles, we don't have characters and all that stuff. So how do small businesses create that emotional connection?
You really have to let your personality come out in this. Use stuff from your background, use stuff from your personality that is going to help create an emotional connection with your customers, not just a transactional one, because if the only time your customers ever hear from you is when you want money, that's not a relationship. You've got to have non-salesy communication going on with your customers. That’s where a lot of businesses miss.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams. I'm your host, Glynis Tao. With more than 20 years in the apparel industry and deep expertise in e-commerce SEO, I help fashion, beauty, and lifestyle brands build visibility strategies that drive long-term growth.
Now, most brands think they have a traffic problem. They think if they just get more people to their website, more clicks, more sessions, more reach, everything else will take care of itself. But what I've seen again and again is that it's not where the real problem is because you can have traffic coming in every single day and still not grow. And the reason is what happens after the first purchase. That's where most brands are quietly losing money. Customers buy once and then disappear. No second purchase, no loyalty, no referrals. Most brands don't even realize it. So today, we're breaking down what's actually happening and how to fix it.
I'm joined by Vance Morris. Vance has had one of the most unconventional journeys from working as a security guard to becoming a leader at Disney, to going through bankruptcy and then rebuilding into a successful entrepreneur. Today, he's the person businesses call when they're bleeding profit and can't figure out why. He specializes in customer experience and retention. What makes his approach different is that he blends direct response marketing with engineered customer loyalty systems. In simple terms, he helps businesses stop customers from quietly disappearing and stop money from leaking out the back door. Vance, welcome to the show.
Vance Morris
Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me. Hopefully we'll drop a few gold nuggets for everybody today.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Let's start here. You work with a lot of businesses that feel like something is off. They're getting customers, they're making sales, but growth isn't consistent. When you come in and look at businesses like that, what's usually actually happening?
Vance Morris
They're focused a lot on their widget—whatever the thing is that they're selling. So they worry about the packaging. I work with a luxury shampoo manufacturer and he's more worried about the bottle the stuff goes in than he is about the method of delivery, how it's delivered, what it’s delivered in. There's really no experience around receiving his product. And so really a lot what we look at is where do we start with kind of an unboxing experience? The only thing that separates you from every other commodity in your niche or in your industry is your personality and the experience you deliver. I mean, there's 10,000 shampoo companies out there. You know, he has a specific way that he can separate himself. We just need to be able to lean into that. And if you want to retain customers, you have to start with an incredible customer experience. Otherwise, you don't have a prayer of keeping customers around. What I see in most companies is that there is no system, no process for customer retention.
Glynis Tao
And so one thing that stood out to me when you reached out that you mentioned is that most brands are losing customers after the first purchase and they don't even know it yet. So why does that happen?
Vance Morris
There is no system, backend system for after the purchase or the experience of the purchase was not memorable. Because you got to remember it is not the customer's job to remember you. It's your job to remind the customer that you exist. And so having a customer existence system in place, you've got to be able to create this emotional connection with your customer when they first either visit your website or they open the box when they get it at home. I’ll give you a quick example. So when you order my book—this is not a shameless plug, don't worry—you can order my book on Amazon and it's going to show up in an Amazon box or a little baggy. Nothing exciting about that. We get those all the time. But if you order the book from my office and we are the ones that fulfill it, you get an unboxing experience. My book comes in a custom box, and then there's a nice bookmark in there with a little tassel on it. It's more of a workbook, so we've got a pen in there. I've included a nice thank you note. And there's other little gifts in the box so that when you open it and then that box is inside of another box. So it's like a little Christmas party. You know, when that box arrives, you're like, oh my God, one, somebody cared enough to look at the packaging, and two, somebody cared enough to create an experience out of opening up a box and inside was a book. So you can do that with really any product. That experience is really where you need to start.
Glynis Tao
That's a great example that you just mentioned with your book, which I love for you to tell us more about that at the end and where people can purchase it. So you gave an example of your book in terms of like, the previous question in terms of, where people are losing their customers after their first purchase. Where do you see the biggest disconnect between the experience brands think they're delivering and what customers are actually experiencing?
Vance Morris
Yeah, I mean, there's been studies on this. Right now, the last time I looked, which was at the end of last year, 80% of businesses think they're delivering a great experience. When they surveyed the customers of those businesses, only 8% say those companies are delivering a great experience. So there is a huge disconnect. You have to get into the mind of your customer and figure this out.
One of the unsexy things, and here's a tactic that everybody can use, and it's not, like I said, not very sexy, but you map out your customer journey. You do it from the point of view of your client. So every time your business interacts with a client, whether it's a phone call, a website, a box gets delivered, whatever it is, you map that out on your customer journey. More importantly is mapping out what happens after the purchase. What are the mailings? What are the emails? What are the videos, the postcards? What's happening after the purchase so that you stay in that person's life? And like I said, you do it from the point of view of the customer.
So let's say the customer goes to your website and buys your product. At this point, they are excited, right? Because they just spent money, the endorphins and dopamine and everything's flowing. And, okay, cool, I just bought something. Can't wait for it to get here. And then what's the next thing the customer does? It's not open the box. That's what everybody thinks. They now wait. So there's a period of time between the order and the package arriving. Now, your company's doing work, okay? This is why we do it from the client's point of view. You guys are packaging and getting stuff together, you know, postal service, UPS, whatever, getting ready to get the box to go out, but your customer is sitting there waiting. So you have to address that wait period. Okay, what can you do to entertain them while they're waiting? Because when they wait, they can second guess their purchase. They could have some buyer's remorse. Maybe they're thinking, okay, I'll find something else. Another competitor comes in.
So if you think of Disney, right, when you go to Disney, you wait, right? You wait for the rides, you wait for food, you wait for transportation. Disney's just figured out a way of making that wait not feel so bad. So they call it “linertainment”, where they entertain you in line and they have, you know, characters and interactive stuff and, you know, they might be selling food in line. So it doesn't feel that bad.
We need to do the same thing. So as soon as that order is placed, what can you send immediately before the package, which is probably going to have to be digital, but can you send a how-to video? Can you send a testimonial video? Can you, you know, all sorts of things you can do to keep them excited about their purchase until the box arrives. So I think that's really one of the first places you can plug the holes in keeping them excited and getting them ready to make a second purchase.
Glynis Tao
You mentioned businesses call you when they're bleeding profit but don't know why. What are the first one or two things that you typically look at?
Vance Morris
Sure. Well, the first number and every business should know this is how much does it cost to get a new customer or your client acquisition cost? Typically, that is the biggest number when it comes to your business as far as marketing. So in my business, I have some businesses here in Maryland and it cost me $136 to get a new customer in the front door. That's the pay-per-click ad. That's the guy answering the telephone and dispatching. One of our technicians. So when I go out and serve a new client, I had to buy them. It costs me $136. It only cost me $23 a year to retain a customer. So my marketing efforts that I do after our first sale are a heck of a lot less than the initial acquisition. So the second purchase that I get from one of my clients, I'm already $100 more profitable because they didn't have to go out and get that client again. So you can be really busy, I mean, getting new clients, new clients, new clients, new clients all the time, but if they're only doing a one-time purchase, you're not profiting. You're going broke very slowly. You just don't notice it because you feel busy. But at the end of the week, there's no money in the bank account.
When I work with folks, one of the questions I always ask is, you know, do you have a marketing budget? And most people will say yes. The ones that don't make me nervous. Then I asked the question, okay, how much of your marketing budget is for customer retention? And they all look at me like I got three heads, right? 99% of companies don't have a budget set aside for customer retention. And that's where all of the money is made at the lowest cost. I don't know if that example painted a bleak enough picture, but that’s the first thing I look at is customer acquisition costs versus cost of keeping a customer.
Glynis Tao
I just kind of wanted to go back to your experience working at Disney. You mentioned, you know, how they've thought of everything and entertaining people in line and stuff. So what do they understand about customer loyalty that most brands still completely miss?
Vance Morris
It’s the emotional connection and that's really what drives Disney. If you went to the park today, you went to Magic Kingdom, 80% of the people in the park right now have been there before. It's only 20% new. So I figure, if that ratio is good enough for Disney, it's good enough for me and for my clients. So that's the goal we're trying to hit is 80% customers.
You know, I mentioned this emotional connection thing and Disney does it very well. I mean, they have movies, they have characters, they have theme parks. I mean, when you drive into Disney World down in Orlando, there's the big arch over top and “Welcome to Walt Disney World”. And you know you've arrived and you start to get goosebumps and the kids get excited and all that stuff. That's the feeling we want people to have about our business. But we don't have Cinderella castles, we don't have characters and all that stuff. So how do small businesses create that emotional connection?
You really have to let your personality come out in this. So one of the things that I do is I shamelessly use my children in my marketing. I have no problem with it. And so my daughter, she's 18 now, but when she was younger, she did ballet. And at the recital every year, I would take a picture of her and her little tutu and I would put it in my print newsletter that I sent to all of my clients. So every year, there's little Emma growing up and her picture’s in the newsletter. She was probably about 10 or 11 years old. We're in the grocery store and this lady comes running up to us and asks my daughter, doesn't even talk to me, talks to my daughter. She goes, oh my God, Emma, how was your recital? We're looking at each other like, you know, should we go hide in the frozen food section? Who's this nutty lady? And then I had to think, she's one of my customers. She has watched my children grow up. This lady is never leaving me. She has to either move or die before she'll stop doing business with me because of that emotional connection. My kids have thousands of aunts and uncles that they'll never meet. They're all my customers, but they know exactly who my children are.
Do you have to use your children? No. Maybe you're into knitting or bowling or something along those lines. Use stuff from your background, use stuff from your personality that is going to help create an emotional connection with your customers, not just a transactional one, because if the only time your customers ever hear from you is when you want money, that's not a relationship. You've got to have non-salesy communication going on with your customers because it's a rotten feeling. I mean, you know, we all know when the mattress sales are coming out because the only time the mattress company sends it is on Labor Day and Memorial Day. And it's the only time you ever hear from a mattress company is when they want money. Well, where were you back in November when I could have used a nice little postcard on how to get a good night's sleep or something like that, adding value? That’s where a lot of businesses miss.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, because whenever we look at the marketing funnel, you know, we see this top of funnel, middle funnel, bottom conversion, then what happens after that?
Vance Morris
It's empty!
Glynis Tao
So for founders listening right now, how can they quickly audit their post-purchase experience without over complicating it?
Vance Morris
Well, first, are you doing anything? And so you want to really look at, what is the follow-up? Do you have somebody or a VA calling and doing a quality assurance check on the product? Hey, did it arrive well? Is it safe? I mean, today, you know, VA's are so inexpensive and nobody's using the telephone. Can you imagine if you sold somebody a bottle of shampoo, it got delivered and two days later you had somebody from that company calling you saying, hey, we saw that the shampoo was delivered. Did it arrive okay? Have you had a chance to use it? What do you think? People will be blown away by that. Otherwise, most companies they'll send you an email, and please rate us here, or they'll send you a text message. Pick up the phone and make a phone call. It's easy to do.
And then look at your communication. Like I said, if the only time you're communicating is when you want money, like you're doing a promotion, sending out a kind of coupon, you're not creating relationships that way. So you've got to be able to add value. So in your monthly marketing mix, what are the value messages that you're sending?
Just take the shampoo example. My guy now sends out a postcard once a month with haircare tips in it. Nothing to buy, no promotion, no sale, no coupon, just a postcard to his buyers saying, here's how to best use our product. And here are three other, you know, haircare tips that will help, you know, help you keep your hair, something like that. I don't have much hair, so this is not really my best subject. But yeah, it's how do you deliver value after the sale is where the repeat customers come in.
Glynis Tao
So let's shift into how to think about this strategically and how retention can be used as a revenue strategy, not just marketing tactic. So a lot of brands are still very focused on acquisition, as you said, ads, SEO, traffic, getting more people in the door. At what point does retention need to become the priority?
Vance Morris
Yesterday. It really does. Think about customers that are your raving fans. They’re like evangelists. They’ll scream from the rooftops how great you are. That's word of mouth marketing, right? That's viral marketing. While yes, I mean, don't get me wrong, you need a top of funnel. No doubt about it, okay?Whetheryou're doing online, offline, doesn't matter, pay-per-click ads, flakebook, I get it, you need it. But once you have this army of raving fans, now you start to have a referral source. Think about how easy it is to close somebody who's referred to you versus somebody cold off the street, right? A referral coming to you is about as hot a prospect as you can get. I mean, you got to work hard to screw that up and not get the sale because one of your customers has gone out and said, yep, Vance is the guy for you. You really need to use Vance. He's amazing. Yada, yada, yada. And then they come to you and they are ready to buy. Their wallet is out. But a new client coming in cold, cold traffic off the street who's never given you money, never experienced your service, never used your product, they're very skeptical, right? They haven't had the opportunity to meet you, to try your stuff and do it. So they're a much more difficult sell than somebody who's coming in as a referral. So that's also part of your retention plan is your referral strategy.
Glynis Tao
So can you actually break down and give us an example of how improving retention actually impacts revenue compared to just getting more traffic in the door?
Vance Morris
So I own some home service businesses here in Maryland. One of them is a carpet cleaning business. So I'm not one of those consultants or coaches that has never done anything else. I actually own real businesses. You know, when we were first starting out, we were spending so much money on getting new customers because we didn't have any. But what we did smartly, was as we got a customer, they immediately went into our CRM so that they would go into a reminder sequence or just a general mail sequence so that we would stay in touch with them. We would stay top of mind. When I first started, my customer acquisition cost was probably closer to $200. And now, thanks to a raving fanbase and the people that get referred to us, our acquisition cost is, as I said, is now about $136. So all of that money goes to our bottom line.
Between today and say 10 years ago, we're probably looking at somewhere between 75 and $100,000 in profit. Not sales, but profit because I'm not spending that money going out and getting new clients. I'm spending that money, a lot less money, on keeping existing ones who then refer.
Glynis Tao
You had talked about something that I think has been really overlooked and that's like missed messages, slow replies, broken communication. These feel like small things, but they're actually big revenue leaks. So where do you see this happening the most and how much of an impact does something like response time actually have on conversion and retention?
Vance Morris
It's huge. Take this kind of in two parts. The first part is really that attention to detail, right? Okay, well, maybe we had a coupon code that didn't work. No big deal. Or maybe we answered the phone in five rings instead of three rings. Okay, no big deal. And each one of those in a silo by itself, it's not the end of the world. But if you add up five or six of these little details that are missed, you know, okay, the coupon code didn't work. You're out of stock on the product. You know, I had to leave a voicemail. The chatty bot thing on online said people were out for the next two hours. These are all little things that just add up and you're like, forget it. I'll go buy my stuff from somebody else because those little things added up.
And yes, these days, sadly, we are in the “I want it now” kind of environment. It always reminds me of that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Veruca Salt, the little obnoxious girl. I want it now! And she ends up turning into a big blueberry. But that's what people want. I mean, and we've been brainwashed with this. I mean, Amazon now delivers in two hours or less in some places. You know, we want stuff delivered in our hands immediately. So we have to do that. We have to meet those expectations. Now, I get it. We don't have the purchasing power and the shipping power of an Amazon. But setting expectations and then exceeding them, say, okay, yep, we're typically, you know, four to five days in shipping when you know that it's three. Right. So now, they got the box a day early. Now they're excited. Those are some of the holes that you have to plug. And again, if you do that entertainment piece while they're waiting, you again, you captured them in that period and they're going to feel a lot better when the product actually shows up.
Glynis Tao
And my follow-up question to that would be then, what does a strong response system look like for a growing e-commerce brand, especially one that doesn't have a huge team?
Vance Morris
Well, certainly one, if you can afford it, get a virtual assistant. There are some phenomenal ones out there that are English speaking that are very low cost. So if you have a telephone number that's advertised, well, don't have it go to voicemail. Have somebody actually answer the phone. Usually, if they answer the phone, two or three times and get a sale, they pretty much paid for themselves. So you're ahead there. Certainly having immediate access to a real human. So if you have to have a bot doing your answering, answering, you know, having access to a human needs to be like the first option. You know, don't make me go to option like 16 and I got to listen to the first 15 before I get to a real human. Real human needs to be number one. And that's really the big separator with all these companies is they're all relying on AI, they're all relying on a bot or a something because, well, that's the way we do it. Well, no. Sometimes, most times, it's best to actually talk to a live person because you start that emotional connection. If you want to have a repeat sale, oh my God, actually talking to somebody almost guarantees it.
Glynis Tao
And so speaking of AI, I have a personal story of something that I had experienced recently with trying to book a massage appointment and the booking system. They used to have a person who answers the phone, but now it directs you straight to an AI Chatbot. They'll do the booking for you. And I ran into issue because I had a gift card that I wanted to use, but they kept asking me for my credit card and if I have a credit card on file. I was like, wait a second, I just want to give you my gift card number because that's how they used to handle it when I was talking to a real person. They would just take my gift and that was enough to hold the appointment. So then they followed up with a text message saying, please reply back with your credit card number. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Can I just talk to a real person here? So then I ended up calling them and luckily they had somebody answer the phone, but you know, they could have lost me there, right?
Vance Morris
Yeah. And you know, and if you didn't have a gift card, they probably would because you had the card. You wanted to redeem this thing.
Glynis Tao
I just wanted to use the card.
Vance Morris
Yeah, I get it. I get it completely. And you know, and that's where, you know, again, that's where a lot of businesses are going to fall down. Let me give you a quick example of this is for communication and how looking at what other people do and doing something different. In the fast food world, you have the drive thrus, right? And if you go to McDonald's, you’ve got the little squawk boxy thing that you order your food in. And sometimes you can understand what they're saying back to you. Sometimes not. You don't know if they got the order right or anything like that. But if you go to Chick-fil-A right across the street, they have people standing outside. So you don't actually have to talk to the box, you can actually talk to a real human. And people say, that's expensive, that's expensive. I said, no, that's an investment in the longevity of your company. If you look at the average sales for a McDonald's, it's like $4.5 million a year. Your average Chick-fil-A is doing $9 million a year, and they're closed one day a week. So there is a huge correlation between the customer service that you're giving and your revenue and profitability.
Glynis Tao
Let's talk about loyalty. A lot of brands rely on discounts to drive repeat purchases. Why is this such a dangerous path to go down?
Vance Morris
Well, I actually just wrote an article on why business owners should be charging full price and not discounting. One thing with discounts is that's not loyalty. That's bribery to continue to use your company. And the minute you try to sell them something full price, they're gone. They'll go find a coupon from your competitor and buy from them. So it's fake loyalty. Yes, they may have bought from you a couple of times, but they did it with a coupon. The minute you stop running coupons, poof, they're gone. You need to do more than just coupons, and actually, probably, I know this might be heresy, but you know, coupons are not always great. I mean, yes, I like them. I like to use them, but I don't want to give them. And so we charge my home services business and my consulting business. Here's the price. But that's it. There is no arguing over it. There's no negotiation.
You know, now I will offer my existing clients a better price than my new clients. So I'm like the opposite of the phone company, you know, like Verizon and AT &T, they're all like, hey, we'll give you a free Apple this and an iPhone and an iPad and then just change and come to us. Well, what about their existing customers? If I stay with you, will you give me all that stuff? No, they don't. So that's where you have to flip the script and do the opposite. Your new customers need to be trained to pay full price. Once they are used to paying full price, they'll continue to do it. And their loyalty comes from the service that you're providing, the incredible product that you've developed and you're selling. And they won't even think of going anywhere else because of the experience, not because of the 5% coupon. Getting people, starting them off paying full price is the best way to ensure loyalty.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I just love that. I wrote it down. Discounts? It's not loyalty, it's bribery.
Vance Morris
It is.
Glynis Tao
So what is moment zero and why is it so important in shaping customer perception?
Vance Morris
Sure. So moment zero is that first two or three seconds that a prospect has with your company. And what is it saying about it? It's the whole first impressions thing. You only get one chance to make a first impression. So how do you arrive in their world? I'm sure a lot of it is probably via a website. Great. What is the experience of that website? Is it easy to navigate? Do all of the buttons work? Do the promo codes work? That says a lot about the kind of company you are. If it's easy to navigate, the colors, colorblind people can read them. It's not a mishmash of stuff that makes sense. It's intuitive. That all adds up to moment zero, which is that first point that somebody says, you know what? I like these guys. I think I'm going to give them a chance and continue down the pipeline of going from a prospect to a customer.
Glynis Tao
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Glynis Tao
So let's make this really practical. If you were stepping into a $10,000,000 fashion brand what would be the first three things that you'd fix immediately?
Vance Morris
Oh my, first three things. I would institute a print newsletter. Number one, newsletter and in the mail. I mean, you can email it as well, but you have to get stuff in the mail because the mailboxes are empty these days. There’s not a lot of stuff in there. So if you are a fashion brand, you should have a newsletter and it's not designed to sell your stuff. The newsletter is designed to continue that emotional connection. You know, I mentioned my daughter, but you can have, you know, different stories. It's kind of like a reader's digest lite. You want to be entertaining. You can certainly talk about fashion if you like. You may want to put, you know, here’s six colors that go with anything. Don't mix these colors, things like that. And then you want to make sure that you're also in the mail, physical mail, postal service, with your promotion. So we do a monthly postcard and that is the promotion piece. So newsletter, emotional connection, relationship, postcard is the promotion. And then we do a weekly email. Not daily and not always, and certainly not like some of these companies that, okay, 16% off today, 17% off tomorrow, yada—that's not adding value. Do a weekly one and take an article from the newsletter and your promotion from your postcard and turn it into an email. So you're adding value and you're making an offer at the same time. Now you have hit your customer six times in one month and it's a great mix of adding value and asking for the sale or having a promotion. So those are three things that I would put in place immediately.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, having those touch points, I think, and staying top of mind for people. Email marketing, definitely. I think everyone should have some sort of an email marketing strategy just to keep nurturing their current customer base, right? And not just like end the relationship after the sale because it just becomes more transactional that way than relational.
So what metrics should brands actually be tracking if they want to improve retention? Because I think a lot of people are tracking the wrong metrics.
Vance Morris
Certainly, tracking, ads, spending, especially if you have repeat customers, you know, and maybe they're on a monthly subscription or maybe their, their monthly purchase is, let's just say $50. Every month for eight months, they purchase something for $50 and then the ninth month, they do something for $25. Somewhere in your CRM or in your purchasing system, there should be an alarm going off saying, whoa, you know, Suzy Q didn't buy what she normally buys. Let's go see if there's a problem. And maybe Suzy Q, has an issue and she just bought less. Maybe Suzy Q just didn't need it. But to be able to reach out to someone before they're a lost customer is imperative. So looking at sales over time.
As far as customer experience, customer service, doing a net promoter score of survey is definitely, once a year doing that, and measuring where you, well, more than once a year, but looking at those numbers all the time. Net promoter scores, there's no guesswork to it. It's a very, standard number and it's easily measurable. You can see where you land and see where you need to improve. Those are the two big ones I would do, especially around customer retention.
Glynis Tao
Can you just define net promoter score, what that is and how to calculate it?
Vance Morris
Sure, on a scale of one to five, how much are you willing to refer our company? That's the only question that's on there—one question. Anything less than a four or five, you're in trouble. And so if you're at 4.1 or above, you're doing okay, but you still got a lot of work to do. If you're at a 3.9, you're in deep doo doo, and you've got a lot of work to do. They consider those at the bottom detractors and they are not going to help your business. They're not going to go out and talk about you and they're not going to refer.
Glynis Tao
What about brand ambassadors and like having some sort of a reward program or something?
Vance Morris
Yeah, no, 100%. I firmly believe whether it be influencers or your brand ambassadors can just be any user of your product or service, especially if they're photogenic or they've got a great voice. Capturing that on video and having them featured on your website or featured on your YouTube channel or Facebook feed, 100%. Paying somebody to say something seems a little disingenuous, but if you have brand ambassadors that are users of your product that are willing to say, oh my God, yes, you know, all my hair grew back when I started using this shampoo, et cetera, that’s the kind of brand ambassador you want. Not, you know, going and renting a soap opera star from a B soap opera and having and painting them to be your ambassador. It's just disingenuous to me.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I feel like this conversation with you kind of brings me full circle because together with a couple of conversations that I've had just recently with past guests. I had an actual dry shampoo founder of a dry shampoo company or no, showerless shampoo is not a dry shampoo shower, showerless shampoo that you can just put on without having to do a full wash.
Vance Morris
Oh my goodness.
Glynis Tao
So she invented this product.
Vance Morris
Okay.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, yeah. And somebody else who I just recently talked to right before you was about retention as well. And she's building a tech company that is all around relational relational retailing, which retailers can use. It's like a data platform that has all the customer data and past history as well as, not just purchases, but in terms of like, size are they, you know, or what colors do they prefer or what styles and different things like that. So they have this profile where their sales associate would then have this data and will know as soon as the person walks in the door that they will immediately recognize this person.
Vance Morris
Yep. Yeah, no, having that customized data is priceless. In our business, we go to people's homes. Some people have dogs. Some people have cats. Well, we note that in their file in our CRM, because I don't want to send a cat person a dog promotion and I don't want to send the dog people a cat promotion. So, yes, having that information is invaluable.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so I think this talk will really just strengthen all of that past conversations that we have on customer service and retention. So before we wrap up, if you had to summarize it simply, what separates brands that scale sustainably from those that constantly struggle?
Vance Morris
Definitely the brands that are scaling and scaling profitably are the ones that are paying attention to the experience, not just the quality of their product, but the user experience of the product. And then the others have a robust customer retention system in place. Those are the two must haves to scale profitably.
Glynis Tao
Wonderful. So I think this is such an important thing to look at because visibility helps you get found, but experiences are what gets you chosen and recommended and also remembered, right?
So where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Vance Morris
Sure. Well, I've got a gift for everybody if it's okay. It's called 52 Ways to Wow Your Customer. So it's one wow for every week of the year in case you're not feeling overly creative. You can get that at wow52ways.com.
Glynis Tao
Do you have a website for your business?
Vance Morris
Yep, VanceMorris.com. That's the easy one.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Well, Vance, thank you so much for being here today and it's been great talking to you.
Vance Morris
Thank you so much for having me.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much for tuning in. You can find me on Instagram, @glynistao, and my website, glynistao.com. Please subscribe to Chase Your Dreams podcast if you haven't already. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others who you think this may help. Lastly, it would be great if you left a rating and review for our podcast. See you next time!
Why isn’t your e-commerce brand growing, even when you’re investing in marketing?
In this episode, Glynis Tao breaks down what most fashion, beauty, and lifestyle e-commerce brands still get wrong about growth in 2026. Drawing from conversations with 9 founders, she shares the recurring patterns behind stalled growth and how to fix them.
You’ll learn why growth is not just a marketing issue, how weak product-market alignment impacts conversions, and why unclear brand messaging limits visibility across Google and AI search.
This episode also explores how business-first SEO, product strategy, and long-term thinking work together to build sustainable, revenue-driven growth.
If you’re an e-commerce founder struggling with inconsistent sales, low conversion rates, or unclear positioning, this episode will help you identify what’s really holding your brand back.
🔥 My Online Visibility Roadmap uncovers the hidden technical + SEO issues holding you back and gives you a clear plan to fix them.
With over 20 years of experience in the apparel industry, Glynis is an expert in creative entrepreneurship and fashion business operations. Driven by a mission to empower and help her clients build e-commerce businesses that are purposeful and profitable, Glynis uses her industry experience to develop data-driven strategies.
Beyond SEO consulting, Glynis is passionate about fostering a community of like-minded business owners. Through her Chase Your Dreams podcast, e-commerce blog, and collection of free resources, Glynis provides guidance and inspiration for entrepreneurs striving to grow their brands.
Takeaways
Why growth is not just a marketing problem—and what it actually is
How product-market alignment impacts conversions and demand
The role of brand messaging and positioning in visibility and sales
Why most brands struggle with clarity, not reach
How short-term thinking is limiting long-term e-commerce growth
Themes
Why isn’t marketing the real problem behind stalled growth strategies?
Many founders assume that more paid ads, more content, or improved SEO will lead to successful brand growth. In reality, growth strategies often fail because the product itself isn’t aligned with real customer demand. When brands overlook their customers’ needs and rely on trends to determine what products should be developed instead of genuine problems, conversions suffer and marketing feels harder than it should. Sustainable growth starts with intentional product development that meets a clear need in the market.
How does brand messaging impact visibility and growth?
Many times, customers don’t fully understand what brands stand for. When brand messaging is too generic, it becomes difficult for brands to stand out in the market. Clear brand positioning and a consistent voice is what makes a brand recognizable, relatable, and easier for both customers and AI to understand.
What role does product strategy play in successful growth strategies?
Product development is more than just design and execution. It’s a core part of your growth strategy. Every decision during the product development process, from materials to pricing, should align with your target audience, brand positioning, and profitability goals. Brands that treat product as a business strategy are better positioned to make products that meet demand, improve margins, and scale sustainably.
Why is short-term thinking hurting long-term growth?
Many brands focus on quick wins and vanity metrics by chasing trends, launching too many products, or reacting to competitors. While this can create temporary spikes, it often leads to inconsistency and burnout. Sustainable growth strategies require long-term thinking that involves building systems, earning customer trust, and making intentional decisions that compound over time.
How does SEO support long-term, sustainable growth strategies?
Unlike short-term marketing tactics, SEO is a long-term investment that builds momentum over time. It drives consistent visibility, attracts the right audience, and supports ongoing growth without constant ad spend. More importantly, SEO aligns your product, messaging, and brand strategy so search engines and AI tools can clearly understand and recommend your business.
What does it mean to align product, brand, and strategy for growth?
The most effective growth strategies come from alignment. When your product solves a real problem, your messaging clearly communicates value, and your strategy supports long-term goals, growth becomes more predictable and less stressful. Instead of constantly reacting, aligned brands build strong foundations that support scalable and sustainable success.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Growth Challenges in E-Commerce
01:42 Understanding Product-Market Fit
04:41 The Importance of Brand Clarity
06:05 The Fashion SEO Visibility Accelerator
8:36 Long-Term Thinking for Sustainable Growth
Transcript
Glynis Tao
Over the last three months, I've had conversations with founders across fashion, beauty, and lifestyle ranging from early stage to multi-million dollar brands. And here's what stood out to me. Most brands are not struggling because they're not working hard enough. They're not struggling because they don't care. They're struggling because they're focused on the wrong things when it comes to growth. And I say this as someone who's been inside these conversations through my podcast, through client work, and through the audits and strategy sessions I run with founders every single week. So in this episode, I wanna share what I've learned from speaking to nine founders over the last 90 days. And more importantly, what most e-commerce brands are still getting wrong about growth in 2026. Because once you see these patterns, you can't unsee them.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Let's start with the first one, and honestly, this is probably the biggest. Pattern number one: growth is not a marketing problem. Most founders believe that if they just improve their marketing, run better ads, post more content or invest in SEO, growth will follow. However, what I keep seeing over and over is that growth isn't really a marketing issue. It's more about whether your product actually lines up with what people want. Let me explain. In my conversation with Carrie Sporer, co-founder of SWAIR, the product didn't come from a trend or a gap in the market on paper. It came from a real, lived problem. She was training for marathons, constantly dealing with sweaty hair and couldn't find a solution. So she built one. That's very different from saying, let's launch a product because this category is trending.
And then when I spoke to Belinda Jacobs, who has developed thousands of products for hundreds of brands, she said something that really stuck with me. Product development is not just execution, it's strategy. Every decision from materials to pricing to construction should tie back to your customer, your positioning, and your margin. And yet, most founders treat product as the creative part and marketing as the thing that makes it sell. It doesn't work like that anymore.
I also saw this in a conversation with Elizabeth Solomeina and Orly Shani. They both emphasized profitability, intentional production, and really understanding your customer. Not overproducing, not overextending, not trying to do too much too quickly. Because when your product isn't aligned with demand, your marketing feels harder than it should. Your conversions stay low and no amount of traffic will fix that. So here's the shift. You can't SEO your way out of a product problem. You can't market your way out of weak demand. Growth starts before marketing. It starts with solving a real problem, validating demand and building products that people actually want. Once that foundation is off, everything else becomes harder.
But even when the product is strong, there's another issue I keep seeing, and that is pattern number two: most brands don't have a clear point of view. This is the visibility problem that no one talks about properly. Most brands think, we need more exposure, we need more content or we need to be on more platforms. But after speaking with founders like Robyn Young, KJ Blattenbauer, and Liliane Daou, it's not that you're not reaching enough people—it's that people don't fully get what you stand for. Robyn Young is a brand strategist, author, and founder of Young & Co., who is dedicated to helping independent brands move beyond surface level marketing to build what she calls brand universes. Robyn said something that I think every founder needs to hear. Brands are not memorable because they look good. They're memorable because they stand for something. And when I look at a lot of e-commerce brands, especially in fashion and lifestyle, they look polished, they look beautiful, but they don't say anything. There's no clear point of view, no strong perspective, no reason to choose them over someone else.
Hey, this is Glynis from Chase Your Dreams Consulting. If you're a fashion, beauty or lifestyle e-commerce brand doing over $2 million and you're not seeing consistent growth from organic traffic, this is for you. The Fashion SEO Visibility Accelerator is designed to help you turn your website into a revenue-driving asset. You'll get a clear business-first SEO framework aligned with your products, your customer, and how people actually search today, including AI. No fluff, no generic audits, just actionable insights you can implement immediately to increase visibility, traffic, and sales.
If you're ready to stop guessing and start scaling with clarity, join the five day visibility accelerator today.
KJ Blattenbauer is a seasoned publicist with over 30 years of experience helping overlooked experts step into the spotlight. KJ talked about visibility as a leadership skill, and that really reframes things. Because visibility isn't just about showing up. It's about clearly communicating your value in a way people understand immediately.
And Liliane brought this idea of world building and cultural relevance that your brand is not just a product, but it's a perspective. It's a feeling. It's a point of view that people connect with. So when brands struggle with visibility, it's usually because their messaging is too broad. They're trying to appeal to everyone and they haven't defined what they actually stand for.
This ties directly into what I talk about with business-first SEO. In 2026, visibility isn't about being everywhere, but it's about being understood. Because if your messaging is generic, then AI is not gonna pick it up. If your positioning is unclear, customers won't convert. If your brand voice isn't consistent, you won't be remembered. So the shift here is simple, but not easy. You don't need more content, you just need more clarity.
Now, even when a brand has a strong product and a clear message, there's one more thing that quietly holds them back, and that's pattern number three: short-term thinking is killing long-term growth. This one came up in almost every single conversation. There's this constant pressure to have to grow faster, to sell more, to launch more, and do more, more, more, more, and I get it. But the brands that are actually building something sustainable are not operating like that.
Elizabeth Solomeina talked about the slow journey being the most sustainable one. And Robyn emphasized not chasing vanity metrics and focusing on trust and loyalty instead. Carrie spoke about thinking in terms of long-term balance, not day-to-day wins. Liliane reinforced staying anchored in a long-term vision and not getting distracted by company comparisons. And Belinda talked about building products that can evolve and scale over time, not just one-off ideas.
So the pattern is clear. Most brands are reacting, but the brands that are succeeding are building. Reacting looks like chasing trends launching too many products, constantly pivoting, focusing on short-term sales spikes. But building looks like staying focused, iterating intentionally, thinking in systems and playing the long game. And this is where SEO becomes really interesting because SEO forces you to think long-term. You don't get instant results. You don't get quick wins. But what you do get is compounding visibility, consistent traffic, and sustainable growth, which is exactly what most brands say they want, but don't actually build for. So the shift here is to stop optimizing for short-term wins and start building for long-term relevance.
So when you zoom out and look at all of this together, there's one core idea that connects everything. At the end of the day, growth isn't just about marketing. It comes down to how well everything is actually working together. That's between your product and your demand, your brand and your messaging, your strategy and your execution. When those things are aligned, growth becomes a lot more predictable, a lot more sustainable, and honestly, a lot less stressful.
And this is exactly why I talk about business-first SEO the way I do, because in 2026, SEO is not just about rankings—it's about aligning your visibility, your brand voice, your product strategy, and your business goals. So that search engines and AI tools can actually understand your brand and recommend it with confidence. Because if your brand isn't clear, and it isn't aligned, and it isn't built around real demand, no amount of traffic is going to fix that.
If you're listening to this and you're thinking, something feels off, but I can't quite pinpoint what it is, that's exactly what I help founders uncover inside my online visibility roadmap. I'll link it in the show notes and that's it for today's episode.
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow and share it with another founder who's building something meaningful. And I'll see you in the next one.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much for tuning in. You can find me on Instagram, @glynistao, and my website, glynistao.com. Please subscribe to Chase Your Dreams podcast if you haven't already. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others who you think this may help. Lastly, it would be great if you left a rating and review for our podcast. See you next time!
Katerina Ali, founder and CEO of Immersifi, shares how she is rethinking retail by focusing on customer recognition and relationship-building rather than discounts and automation. With over 25 years of experience across fashion, marketing, and technology, she offers a fresh perspective on why traditional loyalty programs fall short and how brands unintentionally train customers to wait for sales. She introduces the concept of relational retail, a proactive approach to customer experience that uses data and technology to better understand and serve customers before they even make a purchase. The conversation explores how brands can unify online and in-store experiences, use AI to support human connection, and create more personalized interactions that drive trust and long-term loyalty. This episode reframes customer experience as a key competitive advantage, where recognition and personalization are essential to building a brand that lasts.
About Katerina Ali
Katerina Ali is the founder and CEO of Immersifi, a clienteling and loyalty platform designed to help physical retail brands better recognize and retain their customers. With over 25 years of experience across fashion, marketing, and technology, she has built her career at the intersection of customer experience and brand growth. After identifying a gap in how brands fail to recognize loyal customers in-store, she created Immersifi to support what she calls relational retail, a more human, data-driven approach to building trust and long-term loyalty. Today, her work focuses on helping brands move beyond discounts and automation to create more personalized, relationship-driven experiences.
Recognition drives revenue; customers who feel known buy more and stay longer
Discounts do not build loyalty; they train customers to wait and weaken your brand
The shift from transactional loyalty to relational loyalty builds on trust and experience
Use AI to support human connection, not replace it
Personalization only works when it is relevant and based on real customer data
Retention starts before the sale through proactive, seamless experiences
Stay flexible in execution but grounded in your core mission
Interview Themes
What is relational retail?
Relational retail is about building a relationship with the customer before they even make a purchase. It focuses on understanding who they are, what they want, and why they are coming into the store, so that you can create a personalized and seamless experience from the start.
How can brands improve brand recognition and build customer loyalty?
Brands can build loyalty by remembering and getting to know their customers. With that customer knowledge, sales associates can create better experiences for their customers. Simple things like knowing their preferences, past purchases, or personal details help customers feel valued and more likely to return.
How can I combine the online and in-store experience for customers?
Nowadays, customers move between online and in-store, so their experience should feel seamlessly connected. By sharing data across both online and in-store shops, brands can offer consistent personalization, better recommendations, and a smoother journey no matter where the customer shops.
How can brands use technology to enhance the customer experience?
Technology should make processes that can be automated easier so the people behind the business can focus on creating more meaningful, human interactions. It can help organize customer data, suggest products, and reduce guesswork. Technology should free up time for people, not replace them.
How can sales and discounts harm my brand’s image?
Frequent discounts can lower the perceived value of your brand and train customers to wait for sales. Over time, this can hurt your profit margins and, more importantly, your brand positioning.
What are the benefits of bootstrapping?
Bootstrapping gives founders more control and forces them to be thoughtful with decisions. It helps build a stronger foundation and puts them in a better position if they choose to raise funding later.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Relational Retail
02:27 The Importance of Customer Recognition
06:36 The Loyalty Paradox and Discount Trap
11:48 Defining Relational Retail
22:42 Enhancing Customer Experience Through Automation
25:11 The Role of AI in Retail
28:17 Integrating Online and In-Store Experiences
31:01 The Founder Journey: Building Immersifi
35:32 Recognizing and Retaining Customers
37:07 The Future of Retail: Customer Experience at the Forefront
39:14 Core Beliefs for Building a Lasting Brand
Transcript
Katerina Ali
Bootstrapping it means you're looking at every single detail that comes in. It’s about making sure you're understanding where it's all going as long as you're in it for the long term and seeing what will happen in five years time. So if you want to give your equity away early, that's fine. If it's something you can't, if you can't bootstrap, that's fine as well. But just keep your wits about you as you go on. Don't think about today or tomorrow—think about where you want to be in a few years. I think that's been something that I've learned well.
Glynis Tao
Today's guest is Katerina Ali, founder and CEO of Immersifi, a clientele and loyalty platform built for physical retail brands. With over 25 years of experience across fashion, marketing, technology, and business development, Katerina has seen firsthand how brands spend heavily to acquire customers only to fail at recognizing them once they walk through the door. And that's exactly the problem she's solving because in a world where brands are competing on discounts, automation, and pay traffic, Katerina is taking a very different approach. She believes the future of retail isn't more automation—it's deeper recognition.
In this conversation, we're breaking down why traditional loyalty programs are failing, how brands are unintentionally training customers to wait for a sale, and what it actually looks like to build what she calls relational retail. We also get into why physical stores are far from dead, how to rethink the in-store experience as a relationship driven environment, and why in an increasingly AI driven world, human connection is becoming your biggest competitive advantage.
If you're building a fashion, beauty or lifestyle brand, and you're thinking about long-term growth, retention and brand equity, not just short-term sales, this episode is going to challenge the way you think about your customer experience. Let's get into it.
Welcome, Katerina. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Katerina Ali
Thank you, Glynis. I'm so happy to be here. So happy.
Glynis Tao
I'm happy that you're here. You've spent 25 years across fashion, marketing, and technology. What's something you've consistently observed about how brands treat their customers that never sat right with you?
Katerina Ali
It all started with personal experience. When you come into some stores and you've been an avid loyal customer for so long and staff change or what have you, and then you walk in and you have to tell this new person, not their fault, but you tell them everything that you like, everything you want and all of that. And every time I kept experiencing that, I knew I bought less. So I'm like, well, if that's me, let me check out who else is doing the same. When you walk into a store and they recognize you or they know your name, they know what you like, you are welcomed. You are recognized. You are felt and made to feel amazing. Even more so you, okay, let's be honest. You're going to buy more at the end of the day, you're probably going to buy more because you’re trusting the sales associate there, you're trusting them. And when you don't have that trust, brands suffer. And we're seeing that. So a lot of it all starts from my personal experience of walking in that door and going, can I help you? Please, no, no, Just acknowledge I mean, just acknowledge I've walked in. Oh my goodness, how many places I've walked into, not even acknowledged. And know if I am a loyal customer, know that I am. So, yeah, that's what, that's what sort of sparked it all.
Glynis Tao
So it all started from a very personal problem that you had experienced yourself. That's always, you know, a good thing as founders. I think, you know, having experienced this firsthand and now coming up with a solution to it is a great idea. And I guess a spark for your business idea. You talk about this idea that your best customers feel like strangers. What does that actually look like in a retail environment?
Katerina Ali
Well, for example, say you have a store that has several stores, and you always go to the one on Fifth Avenue. Like that's the store you go to all the time. But you know, I'm in LA and I actually want to pop in and they don't know you at all. So you're a stranger. That's one scenario.
Another scenario is staff turnover. I've had so many brands come and say to me, we've lost thousands of dollars because the staff didn't know who that person was and that they were a VIP or a loyal customer or regular or whatever it may be. That's where not being recognized hurts the brand and hurts us too, cause we don't get that beautiful experience and we're going back and typing away to figure it out. So yeah, it hurts both sides.
Glynis Tao
Customer service is such a big part of the overall experience. I think, oftentimes it makes or breaks your experience, even though, you know, perhaps the products are great. But if you didn't have a good customer service experience, then yeah, it just sort of ruins it all.
Why do you think so many fashion brands invest heavily in customer acquisition but fail at something as fundamental as recognition?
Katerina Ali
No one has pinpointed recognition before. I have researched, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I have researched and researched. No one has come in and realized how powerful that recognition is in customer behavior. And the reason I'm seeing brands go elsewhere, especially in this AI era, is there's so much hype out there. We've got to step back and really turn around and go, what does the customer want? And it's funny, being so personal for me and experiencing it, I then went to my friends and then their friends and their friends when I did the research to go, hey, is it just me or are you getting this too? Then, you know, all these sales associates are also saying to be recognized. The customer wants that great experience. So recognition is huge.
Glynis Tao
Let's talk about the loyalty paradox and the discount trap. Okay, so let's talk about loyalty. Many brands think they have a loyalty strategy, but it often revolves around points and discounts. Where do you think this model falls short?
Katerina Ali
There are a few reasons the model falls short. Number one, if you're just doing points and you're building towards something, they call that earn and burn. It does cheapen products. Our main market is that mid to contemporary luxury fashion. So we're not fast fashion. We're not luxury fashion. We find that that will actually cheapen the products. Points just cheapens it. It gets aligned with say your supermarket brands and that sort of thing, which is great—you’ve got your points there. That's for that. You make it more about the experience and you're building even more loyalty for the customer because it's not just about points to get a cheaper deal. Then you don't have to have these sales all the time. I know we've got some amazing designers in Australia and unfortunately, how many times have I gone on board something and bang, there it is on sale. So guess what? I'm waiting now. And we're not talking from drop to six months away. We're talking from drop to a few weeks later. So they're just losing so much. Instead of making it about points, making it about sales. Make it about experience. We can keep that exclusivity there. We can keep that brand equity building. Then hopefully, we then turn it around. And it's not just about the brand spending money either. It's the little things. And we've actually built this in the style lessons as well. Maybe it’s their pet's birthday, their anniversary, all this sort of thing. This clienteling site to go, Hey, we know your anniversary is coming up. Do you want us to book that restaurant? We have partnerships with restaurants and so forth. Do you want us to book that restaurant for you? And here's a great idea for an outfit. you know, and all these, just those little things that we've been able to automate for the sales associates. So taking it away from points, but we do have tiers and customer behavior does show unless you're actually wanting or you're trying to get to that next level, because if you attain that top level, if you've got nowhere to go, that's when the drop off happens. So that's in airlines, that is in any type of loyalty program. You've always got to have them striving for more. And it is up to the brand. Like what do they want to offer as an experience? Because that is remembered long after they've paid that money for that outfit.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So a lot of brands sort of fall into this discount trap. I guess I have this question in two parts. How are brands unintentionally training their customers to wait for a sale and what's the long-term impact of this behavior on brand perception and profitability?
Katerina Ali
On brand perception is, that’s nice. I'll give it a week and I'm sure I can get it on sale. I find that if it goes on sale and maybe they don't have your size, that's the risk you're willing to take. Unless you absolutely love it and have to have it and you’re willing to buy it at full price, why not just make it the discounted price to start with? And don't discount at all because that even that would be better and, build better brand equity because, this is the reason luxury don't discount like top end luxury don't discount because you don't want the people who've paid full price to come around and go, well, Oh no, great. I've just paid $5,000 for something. And now it's, you know, they have a $3000 or $2000, whatever it might be. The way people are made to feel that when they see something on sale, I think it's doing such a disservice. I think they still need a discount. Like they have a, a bi-yearly sale because you do need to get rid of product. But make it at a price that, you know, okay, that's it. Like bang, you're going to do it. You're having it once a year or twice a year, but make it an event. Make it an absolute event to do that. And I think that's where the brands that I see are missing out a lot. Cause you could do so much with that as well.
I was thinking of it the other day, like that, even if they had a health and wellness thing and then they brought their product, even if they're not health and wellness and they've got nothing to do with health and wellness, you could bring your product into that. You could introduce things and make these opportunities to introduce them into new spaces. Why wait so long? There's also someone we talked to that we can incorporate as well with and it helps them actually buy better and produce better. But it's all about them bringing the community. That's part of the membership that comes with it that you have a voice as well. So the brands get to know their customers even better. That way it helps them design better, buy better, all of that sort of thing. Don't take their creative flair away, but they're coming from a more informed space then. And these are all the things to help avoid a discount trap.
Glynis Tao
You're a big advocate for what you call relational retail. How would you define that in a way that's actionable for founder listening today?
Katerina Ali
Relational retail for me, it's a play on clienteling. So right now, clienteling happens after the fact. It happens after the sale or happens after they've walked in. Relational retail is about knowing when they're coming in, why they're coming in, what they want, and having everything ready for them. So you're creating trust. Relational retail is going to be building trust. So when you have that ready for them, and you know, we're using AI in it as well to help suggest, but nothing will beat that human connection. So when you have that relationship, whether you've met them before or not, you know all about them. You know what they need and what they want because of the way we've designed the platform. So that relational retail has come in and gone, okay, we're not waiting till after the fact to come and say, hey, thanks for shopping with us. We're actually thanking you when you're coming in. So to help founders for businesses, designers and so forth, this is where having something that's going to understand why they're coming in first or when they're coming in helps them understand the person.
We do a lot of analytics to understand the customer's behavior as well inside. The founder, the store, the brand, get to know the what we call zero party data because the customer has released that to them. It's all about the customer, willingly doing things. If they don't want to share some of their data, if they don't want to do any of that, no problem. Switch that. We make it so simple to switch that off, but they're just not going to get as great an experience. And if they do, the brand wins, you win and you're made to feel like a million dollars and the sales associates love it because a lot of their work is done and they don't need to fumble about. They already know how you like to be served. You're coming in, how do you like to be served? You know, we'll have a double espresso ready for you. It's down to those little details that don't cost a lot, but make us feel amazing.
Glynis Tao
Can you walk us through how your platform works? How does it help recognize your customers then help with that experience in both in-person and online? Is it strictly… you're talking in store, not online?
Katerina Ali
For now, for now. Because we are a startup, I believe they need to work together. Online and in-store need to be the same, almost the same experience because we spend a lot of time… we do most of our research online, yet more purchases are done in-store in the area we're in. Right now it's a membership.
Back in the day, so I am going to go back a little bit back in the day, you had to spend a certain amount of money to get a VIP discount or you had to be approved by the manager in the store. All these levels you had to go through to become a VIP in one of these stores. Whereas having a membership, if you really want all these experiences, but who's got the patience to do all that anymore? And also for the brand, let's grab their loyalty earlier. We've got a membership available. So then in that membership, this is where the customer fills out all their details as well. Also in-store can help them fill it out. They can actually help them do all of that down to, as I mentioned before, their style essence.
Being a previous personal stylist as well, I understand the nuances of how we feel when we get dressed, men and women. Understanding their style lessons, what looks great on them? What do they like? All those sorts of things. It's like, well, you know, they love the beautiful flowy style. That's what they're saying they want. But they also really love that New York chic edgy style and cycle. Hang on, which, are we doing? How are we going to do this? So understanding that. So that's all part of the platform that they're going to fill in. And we're talking five minutes. We're not talking, you know, an hour of filling all these things in and they can come back. They can change, they can do whatever. The sales associate can go, well, hang on. I think they're more like this and, put notes in and do all of this sort of thing. So it starts with the customer coming in and becoming a member, filling out that. Then, it will either be them notifying the store. There's a little thing to say, hey, I'm coming in at two. and I'm coming into this store. This is the one I want. Or it could be if they allow the GPS to the Bluetooth notification. So when they are close by, the store will know that they might be coming in. But if they're coming in for a purpose, they want to come in for a purpose. I'm looking for a wedding, an event, whatever it may be. Or, you know what, I just want to browse. You know what, I just want to chat. It can just let them know that that's what's going to happen. Then the store can have the change room ready for them, but let them walk in and breathe first and, and wander around and get it in. Then, that's where a little coffee or a drink or something like that comes in. Brands don't lose that side of things because that's a big upsell there too sometimes when they're looking around. But then they've got that change room ready. It's like, oh my God, they know me. They may never have met them before, but they've all this information at their fingertips. The notification comes through, it's like a ping, but they have to go in it to then see why the customer's coming in because we don't want private information displayed on a computer that could be seen by public. So it's just like, ping ping—someone's coming. You also can chat in-app as well. In the platform, they can just chat away. So it's all kept in there, but they will find out why they're coming in and be ready for them. And that builds trust. And again, back to that trust thing. When you trust someone, you're going to, yeah.
Glynis Tao
You'll retain them for that much longer and build up loyalty over time. Amongst the data that you are collecting for this customer profile, you also have data on their preferences, like size, styles, like what they've purchased in the past, like their previous sort of buying habits and stuff like that. So that becomes more tailored, right?
Katerina Ali
Yes, and that leads to the suggestion box. So in the platform, it will be fed through. Okay, they've got that skirt, those bottoms, that top. This blazer will go well because that suits their style. It will get pushed through to them in-app as well as in the platform. So it's tailored to them. Also the marketing stuff. The brand will be able to see dwell time, which is something that is not really measured at the moment. So it could be, hang on. This person was in for 15 minutes and bought thousands of dollars worth or that person was in for three hours and walked out with nothing or something. What's going on? So it also helps them identify weaknesses in areas for their sales associates as well as the strengths. Or it could have just been a one-off. Like it's the data that will come through with the dwell time and how they look. The customer can also request a certain sales associate if they want, but you know, it's more about anyone who's in there can pick it up. They're also with the brand, with the marketing side of things, like, please don't market a mini skirt to me, but you know, you've got a great blazer. You know, great. I don't want to be like me. And again, it comes down to how I like, cause I love to shop, but I'm very, very picky in pieces and all that sort of thing. So if something comes through from one of my favorite brands and it's selling me mini skirts, it's like, girl please. I know I'm not doing this, but you, show me a few blazers and great, some great tailoring stuff. I'm like, you've got me. So we have that marketing as well so that it will go, okay, this is what we'll automate to the people who have this type of style essence or whatever, or this is for all these people that have bought this. It also will differentiate if they're buying something for a present because that can skew the data. So, okay, I've gone in and bought this beautiful flowy top, but it's a present. It's not for me. That skews data, so we differentiate that as well. Just really getting to know the customer, but we've made it so simple to do that. Not, on the back end. That's been it. That's been crazy. We're actually in version two because it wasn't flowing enough for me in version one. So version two, we're flowing a lot easier and the data is just coming through a lot easier now. So that's been great.
Glynis Tao
So you beta tested it in several retail locations and getting that feedback. How's the usability on it? Like, is it pretty easy for someone to learn how to use it?
Katerina Ali
It's so straightforward, so straightforward because in my corporate life, I've been part of so many new software being brought in. Why is it being brought in? We weren't part of the conversation. I don't know how to use this and what am I getting out of it? So I've got all that experience behind me going, okay, well I know what it was like when this new stuff came in. So I actually went to the people who have wanted this the most, when I've done my pounding of the pavement, door to door, email, surveys—I've done all of that. Then, it was the sales associates going, this is amazing. This is exactly what we need. So when you have their buy-in from the sales associates who are using it the most, and then you've got the customer going, of course I want that experience. I love that experience. So they're the two that are using it the most. And then it's like, well, why not? Why wouldn't the brands sort of want to take it on because there you go. They're already got the buy-in from these two and are making it so simple. Like I had to pull back a little bit because I was making it more difficult and they're going, this is just too simple. Like this is what we, you know, it just looks too plain and this, and they're like, you know, my CTOs they're going, yeah, but we want that. We want them using it. So I had to catch myself with that as well. And it was making it just going bang, bang, bang. I don't want them clicking through too much. I don't want them scrolling down a page too much. I want it in their face. So that's for the customer. And when the sales associate, they come in, they open up and they'll say, they'll see who's coming in that day. What clienteling needs to happen? Who hasn't been in? What loyal customers haven't been in for six months, three months, whatever we've set it to. What can we do to do it? These are the birthdays coming up. So it's right there as soon as they come in and they've got their day ready, ready to go. And they don't have to think. They don't have to write because we've made it so simple and everything's there for them. Even down to when a customer finishes, there's a little questionnaire. It's like tick, bang, bang, bang, bang. It would take 30 seconds, but that information to go back to the brand is priceless.
Glynis Tao
There's so much focus around automation and AI in retail. You said the brands winning today aren't the most automated, they're the most present. What does presence look like in practice? And how should founders think about using technology without losing the human connection that actually drives loyalty?
Katerina Ali
I think… who was it the other day? Gary B's just like, yep. I'm getting so much validation lately at Gary B's and all these people are coming, even Brunello Cucinelli. Like all these people are going for human connection. Why we need AI is just to make the mundane type of stuff simpler for us. So for example, things that will just fit in a box, you can get AI to generate for it. And if I am someone who likes pants and I like blazers, I like that sort of thing, then when the suggestions come through, either on my side or the sales associate side, that will be there and it's based on previous data. You need human connection and that takes so much guesswork for the sales associate and for us as well. You know what, it's, it's there. The data says it will, but that human connection will put that edge on it. Will put that flair on it. Will put that extra bit on it. Go, you know what? Yes. That jacket is good, but I know that one will be better because it might be pinched in a little bit more. Whatever it may be in the, in their styling side of things. So as great as it is to suggest things for you, having that personal touch needs on top of it. But it gets rid of probably 80% of the guesswork as well. So it's just like, straight into relational retail. You're straight into that relationship with them. You’re not fumbling around in the dark trying to figure out, do they really like this or what are they doing? So that's where the AI can really come in and help that.
And obviously on supply side, AI is brilliant for the supply side. It also is great for the data to come through and inform better for better decisions because a lot of fashion brands have so much data and they don't know what to do with it. So we've gone, okay, well, what, what do brands need to know? Like what's going to make them money? Cause at the end of the day, they, know, yes, we want absolutely beautifully curated, things to come through, but at of the day, we, we're making money as well. So what is going to help them make money without, the guesswork? We've tried to make sure we've got all of that.
Glynis Tao
Exactly. The industry is changing so quickly with the emergence of AI being a part of every level of the journey and from the buying journey through to marketing. I mean, I'm hearing about all this technology just in terms of how, you know, AI is able to sort of scan somebody's body and immediately be able to recognize and recommend, you know, certain styles based on what would look best on them and that sort of thing. I'm just like, wow, this is like so insane, just in terms of what this technology is capable of doing. Now people are talking about, agent in commerce and now you can have an agent to help do your shopping for you. So it's just happening so fast, but it's just like at the end of the day, still people who are buying the products, right? That you still need to keep that in mind.
Katerina Ali
And brands have to realize that loyalty data is gold. It is absolute gold for them when it comes into agentic AI. So back in the day, when you searched in Google, I think an average was seven words, seven or eight words, you know, long black dress, you know, evening attire, something like that. Whereas it's found, now when we're in ChatGPT, we’re going, okay, I’m going here. I’m going to this place. It’s an average of 38 words now to search for something. So what brands need to do in all of that is that the detail in their site needs to be even better. But also, having that loyal data, all of that, will then be gold for the agentic era because they're honing in even more and really getting to what a customer really wants at the end of the day. In my stage two, by the way, in Immersifi, we have the body scan and everything. A lot of it's about fit, as well. So if they're ordering online, because we know when you're online, you like something, just like it and the store's gonna know and again it's all gonna feed to your data. That body scan's there, we can't always get to a store. So this is where we're bringing both sides into it. You need that experience for both.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that's great how you are thinking of integrating both online and in store experiences—those two together. Because I mean, there's different touch points, I guess, in the customer's journey, buying journey. Going in store is a different experience than going online, shopping online. But I think the biggest challenge for brands is not being able to try on something online, right? If it's your first time shopping, and the fit. If somebody has the data there that they can access within the online platform or someone, you know, wants to shop online, then they'll have all that data ready for them. They'll know exactly if something's going to fit them, what's the size. That'll probably also help with lessening the amount of returns that a store gets as well.
Katerina Ali
Yeah, that cost stores and brands so much. And then we haven't even touched on the third part when in the most part, that is the store. So you're going to be online. You’re going to be able to shop in the store online, so you're walking through it and that's another experience, but that is a little bit down the track. We've had that from day one. That was what we wanted to do. But day one, when I first started this three years ago, that was called the metaverse. We’re renaming that now, but it's an immersive experience. And all that data is going to feed in. So having the, having the body scan… I know we've tested a few of the body scans online and then gone into store to see what the difference is. Look, it's getting there, you know, like it's not, it's not perfect and nothing is at this early stage, but it's getting there. The only thing is you don't know that the pull, the feel of the fabric, the stretch of it—that doesn't come into account. How that will evolve. Who knows? Someone may think of a great way to incorporate that. I'm not sure. I love all the technology. I think there's a place for all of it to come in and why not think of it instead of being online only or in-store only, let's think of it as a whole. Because it's all about the customer experience. Whatever area they're in, they're going to get the same experience no matter what.
Glynis Tao
Okay. I want to shift into the founder journey and building Immersifi as this podcast is geared towards fashion founders. I just want to hear a little bit about that in terms of how you built Immersifi just based on, like you said in the beginning, it was based on a personal problem that you had experienced and you want to solve this problem. So you have a very strong why business model right now. Are you bootstrapping the platform right now?
Katerina Ali
I am.
Glynis Tao
So, from a traditional developer background, what has the journey been like for you?
Katerina Ali
I love it. Like, I know this is really weird. I think because I am so passionate about it and because I have seen the need. I’ve learned so much. I've been in corporate, I've been with, you know, companies turning over 50, hundreds of millions of dollars, like, you know, budgets, all that sort of thing. You come and you be a founder, oh my goodness. It's a whole new world, an absolutely whole new world. I find I am involved in probably too much. And this is something where I'm, at the moment, where I have to do everything, everything. I'm finding that a little bit difficult, but that's what you've got to do as a founder in the early stages. But the reason I'm bootstrapping is because I didn't want to go out for funding immediately and just have some VC take a massive percentage of the company because I actually want to make an impact. Could I have picked the hardest sector to get into? Yeah, of course I did. Did I pick something that's never been done before? Yes. Does that make it harder for me? Yes. So having all that in mind, I'm like, okay, well I need to prove myself now. Okay, so I need to prove this. So either I'm going to bootstrap this, prove it because I believe in it. My goal, the data, and everything that I've got says it's needed. I was just a bit too early in the beginning stages that people are going, well, okay. And now it's all coming out.
Bootstrapping then means I'm in a better driver's seat when it comes to the expansion and when I do go for funding, because it's not just money—it's all about who you surround yourself with—and I'm a massive believer of that. Unfortunately, my co-founder, her health, um, had, you know, some health issues. So I actually don't have a co-founder anymore. But AI took care of a lot of that as well. Although, you know, just having that girl there to chat to or what have you was amazing, but, that's just what happens. I was always looking ahead of how the company was set up. And this is by one of my advisors. I've got amazing advisors on board as well. And I've given them equity as well. So I'm like, okay, I need the best people around me. So I've got ex-Microsoft, ex-Salesforce people around me. I've got people in fashion around me and people in the founders-world going, okay, make sure you set it up like this. So from the get go, think about how the business is going to be set up because if you do that wrong from the beginning, that can come and bite you later on. And I'm hoping I've done it right. Like, you know, we live and we learn. And then I brought a CTO on who is amazing at interpreting what I need because I will go on and on and on and on and on cause I have this vision and I need to be able to get it out. So he's been able to articulate that really well and then get that to some developers for us build that out.
Bootstrapping it means you're looking at every single detail that comes in. And it's not all about control, so I trust them. It’s about making sure you're understanding where it's all going as long as you're in it for the long term and seeing what will happen in five years time. So if you want to give your equity away early, that's fine. If it's something you can't, if you can't bootstrap, that's fine as well. But just keep your wits about you as you go on. Don't think about today or tomorrow—think about where you want to be in a few years. I think that's been something that I've learned well.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, you've been in it for three years now. Is that what you said? With this business?
Katerina Ali
Mm-hmm. Yeah, officially three years. Before that, that's when I was doing all the surveys and asking and going, is this even something people want?
Glynis Tao
Research.
Katerina Ali
Yes. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I think that's always the thing in the beginning is sort of validating, right? Your initial business idea and getting the proof of concept going.
Katerina Ali
Yeah. I've never stopped. I've never stopped doing that either by the way, because it gives you new ideas, something to tweak here and that. So I'm forever going out going, is this, you know, are you still… you get a bit too much noise sometimes. So you've got to be careful of that, but getting all of that researching and seeing what people want is huge. You need that first.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. For a fashion founder listening right now, what's one thing they can do to better recognize and retain their best customers?
Katerina Ali
So I really feel that even if it's just writing down something, just keep an idea of little quirks about them. Just make sure you're understanding the person about their lifestyle and what they want and have that somewhere easy for people to access—other sales associates to access—because the biggest problem is when someone leaves. All that IP about that customer goes with them. So we don't want that. You want to get your staff making sure you're understanding that and keeping an idea of that. I think with founders now, don't be afraid to bring your customers into a design meeting. Get your top customers. I'm not saying, you know, the ones that are just walking by. I'm like, the ones that are there all the time, bring them in. What do they want? Now, you're never going to forget your creative side, but you know, here you are putting out a whole collection of pants, but really everyone wants skirts. How do you know that? Like you bring them in. Bring them in. Make them part of it and make them the center of the universe. When they got buying. Even in corporate, they're going, ooh, come in, we want your opinion as well. Oh my goodness. Okay. I'm someone now. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm going to give my opinion.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, you're like invested. Looking ahead, how do you see the future of retail evolving over the next three to five years?
Katerina Ali
I really feel like over the next three to five years, we're going to realize that not everyone is going to ChatGPT to find what to buy. I’m starting to see it now. People are getting off screens. I think we've been over-saturated with AI. So I think the retail industry is going to have to shift the way they think about a store or about how to serve a customer. I think customer service and customer experience is going to start to take even more center stage because how else do you differentiate the next brand? Like apart from a design here and there, and like, let's be honest, how many of them all look the same? Like I remember at one stage I was in Sydney, I was shopping around, I'm going to everything looks the same here. What's differentiating? It was the one store I went into and I got the most amazing customer experience. And I bought, I wasn't going out to buy, but I ended up buying, but it was because of the customer experience and that's going to be differentiating everything. And I think that's where we're going to see a big shift. Whether it be online, whether it’s in person or both… actually it's gonna be both because it needs to. As I said before, it needs to be that holistic experience for them so they know they're at the same place. And I feel like we really went into that generic of… Okay, I have to mention brands. So the Zaras and all of that and everyone's looking the same and everything. I think we're going to come back into individuality and that's why the customer experience is going to be even more important because we’re coming and going, okay, we are all looking the same. The algorithms just feeding us so much. We are looking the same about everything. What's going to differentiate? That's what it is. how I see it. That's just one of the things. I think there's so much going on and we like, who knows what AI product is going to be released tomorrow. So as of right now, yeah.
Glynis Tao
Final question before we wrap up. If you had to distill everything you've learned into one belief about building a brand that lasts, what would it be?
Katerina Ali
Wow, okay, what would it be? The belief is definitely don't be scared to change from your original thought because you need to keep learning as you go. You've gone, okay, this is exactly how I want to be, this is how it is, and you're going to stick to that. But everyone else around you is changing or saying something different. You’ve got to be open to that. But at the core, understand who you are and what you want to do and, you know, what if we fail? We fail. This is where we learn the most. Oh my goodness. What I started as to what it is now is very different and that is all based on being able to pivot a bit. The core belief is still there though.
Glynis Tao
Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Katerina Ali
I am on LinkedIn under Katerina Ali. And I am on Instagram. It's @katerinasstyle or @immersifi. The best ones are LinkedIn and Instagram, @katerinasstyle with two S's or Katerina Ali on LinkedIn.
Glynis Tao
Katerina, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your perspective on what it really takes to build meaningful customer relationships and turn recognition into lasting loyalty.
Katerina Ali
Thank you, Glynis. I'm so glad we had this chat. I’m looking forward to hearing more of your podcasts as well. It's great. Thank you.
Glynis Tao
Thank you for being a supporter and listener of this podcast. I really appreciate it.
In this episode, Belinda Jacobs, a seasoned product developer and technical designer, shares how she built her career by solving overlooked challenges between design and manufacturing, With over 15 years of experience, Belinda is the founder of Tech Packs Co., a product and design development company that helps brands turn ideas into scalable, production-ready products. She offers an inside look at the realities of product development, emphasizing the critical role of detailed tech packs, clear timelines, and aligning product decisions with both budget and brand strategy. This conversation highlights common and costly mistakes founders make and explains how to control profit margins through thoughtful design, pricing, and material choices. Belinda also explores how to balance creativity with commercial viability, while introducing the opportunity to leverage SEO and customer data to better predict demand and guide product decisions. This episode reframes product development as both a strategic and operational discipline, where organization, continuous learning, and data-informed thinking are essential to building products that not only look good, but sell and scale sustainably.
About Belinda Jacobs
Belinda Jacobs is a product developer and technical designer, and the founder of Tech Packs Co., where she helps fashion brands transform ideas into production-ready products that are both creative and commercially viable. With over 15 years of experience across design and manufacturing, she has developed thousands of products for hundreds of brands, with work featured in the Apple Store, Vogue, and Shark Tank. Belinda began her career as a fashion designer, but quickly became known for her ability to solve recurring production challenges that often derail even the most promising concepts. After relocating to the United States, she launched her own business to support emerging brands and independent designers, focusing on the often-overlooked bridge between vision and execution. Today, her work is defined by a practical, systems-driven approach that helps founders avoid costly mistakes, streamline development, and build products that are aligned with real customer demand and long-term business growth.
Invest time upfront in creating a clear and detailed tech pack to avoid costly errors.
Set realistic expectations when planning your product development timeline and budget.
Approach product development as a strategic discipline, aligning every decision with your brand goals, target price point, and customer demand.
Express creative ideas at the beginning of product development then refine it over time through constraints to balance creativity with commercial viability.
Leverage search data and customer insights to forecast demand and guide your product line.
Stay highly organized and build strong communication systems.
Start with products that match your current capacity, whether that means simpler designs, smaller quantities, or more accessible materials.
Think long-term by developing products that can be iterated on or expanded into a cohesive, scalable product line.
Interview Themes
What is product development?
Product development is the bridge between design and manufacturing. It includes creating detailed specifications, developing samples, sourcing materials, and going through multiple rounds of refinement. For a product to successfully scale, it’s important during the development phase to have clear communication, technical details, and ongoing problem-solving.
Why are tech packs essential to successful product development?
A tech pack is the blueprint for your product. It outlines and communicates everything a manufacturer needs to know about your product so it can be correctly made. Taking the time to build a strong tech pack early on makes the entire process smoother.
When should founders bring in external expertise?
If a product is a key part of the brand, being produced in larger quantities, or needs to move quickly, bringing in an expert early can save time and money. While it is possible to figure things out by yourself, the process often involves trial and error that can become expensive.
How can data be used to create products that actually sell?
Customer insights and search data can help founders understand what people are already looking for. This makes it easier to design products that match real demand instead of relying only on intuition or trends. Using data alongside creativity leads to more informed decisions and better outcomes.
What mindset and skills help founders succeed in product development long-term?
A willingness to keep learning and adapting is key. Product development is always changing, and every project comes with new challenges. Founders who stay curious, flexible, and detail-oriented are better prepared to handle the process and build a sustainable business. Organization is also a huge part of running a product-based business. Managing timelines, coordinating with suppliers, tracking samples, and keeping documentation updated all require strong systems. Staying organized helps keep everything on track and reduces unnecessary delays.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Product Development and Belinda's Journey
02:26 Understanding Product Development Roles
04:58 Common Misconceptions in Product Development
10:08 The Product Development Process Explained
12:33 Avoiding Costly Mistakes in Manufacturing
15:17 When to Bring in a Product Developer
17:20 Balancing Creativity and Commercial Viability
20:11 Signs of a Non-Sellable Product
22:37 The Role of Tech Packs in Product Development
25:22 Leveraging SEO Data for Product Development
27:48 Skills Modern Founders Need
Transcript
Belinda Jacobs
A specifically good product development process is really anchored around what the brand's goals are for, not just for that specific product but for their brand in general and looking at what kind of budget they have again and what kind of timeline they have again because there are just like there are you know, a million different types of products out there. There's also a million different ways that you can approach product development or you can approach manufacturing in general. So I think starting with that lens of what do we have the capacity for? And what are our goals? If you can answer those questions clearly, you can pick the development route more effectively.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Today's guest is Belinda Jacobs, a product developer and technical designer at Tech Packs Co. where she helps fashion brands turn ideas into well-built production-ready products. With over 15 years of experience in fashion and manufacturing, Belinda has developed thousands of products for hundreds of brands. Her work has been featured in places like the Apple Store, Vogue, and even Shark Tank. But what really sets her apart is her focus on helping founders create products that are not just creative, but purposeful and profitable. She understands a part of the business that many founders struggle with the most. How to take a vision and translate it into something that can actually be produced, scaled and sold without costly mistakes.
In today's conversation, we are diving into what really goes on behind the scenes of product development, where brands tend to lose money without realizing it, and how to build products that align with real customer demand. If you're a founder who wants to create better products, improve your margins, and build a more sustainable business, this episode is for you.
Welcome, Belinda. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Belinda Jacobs
Hi, Glynis. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Glynis Tao
You've worked on thousands of products across hundreds of brands. What originally drew you into product development and what has kept you in it for 15 years?
Belinda Jacobs
Great question. I left school, had an interest in fashion and just really kind of wanted to pursue a creative career. So I studied fashion when I went to university, started working in the industry as a designer. And it was always the same issues coming up again and again, no matter where I worked and kind of what products we were working on, what the brand was, who the suppliers were. There were a lot of issues that would come up during production with regards to how the product was made and how smooth that process was to go from idea to final product. So while I was working in various jobs, I just started to, on my own, find my own sort of methodology to help improve that process. And then about ten years or so ago, I had the opportunity to move to the US and I decided it was a good time to go out on my own, start my own business and try to help new brands, independent designers, small teams with kind of this very small slice of the design and development or sort of this small section of the manufacturing world, I should say.
Glynis Tao
When you look back at your career, what's one moment or project that really shaped how you approach product development today?
Belinda Jacobs
That's a great question. I think because product development is so varied, which would actually speak to your previous question. You said, why have I kind of stuck around with this for so many years? Product development is so varied just because there's so many different types of products. There's so many different types of materials. There's so many, you know, different brands, suppliers, people that you're sort of working with all the time. It's never boring. And there's always lessons to be learned on every project, some that you'll have never come across before, some that you'll have sort of seen before, but in a completely opposite way. You definitely sort of need to be somebody who enjoys constantly learning to sort of do this kind of thing.
I guess I have some funny stories about how things were misconstrued in the product development process. The key takeaway from that is that you really want to have very clear product development specifications when you're trying to make a new product. So for example, I was once trying to design a t-shirt for a brand and the specs that we're using weren't super clear and the t-shirt came back not joined together at the sides or the sleeves. And it was just kind of like this sort of kaftan-y tablecloth kind of thing. You know, things like that just happen all the time. Another time when I used to work for a children's wear brand, we were designing a little baby puffer jacket, but you know, ones that have a body and legs that sort of babies wear. And they'd stitched the two legs together, which, you know, of course, if you want it to be legs, obviously, it's so intuitive that you wouldn't want the legs stitched together. But to somebody who just doesn't know your brand or what you're doing or your product, you know, they just think, it's a pram suit. It's to be worn when you're inside like a stroller. Therefore, your legs just go in and yeah, of course, the legs should be stitched together. So, you know, it's just sort of little lessons and details. You're always constantly sort of learning and evolving when it comes to products.
Glynis Tao
For someone hearing technical designer or product developer for the first time, how would you explain what you actually do in a way founders can understand?
Belinda Jacobs
Sure, yes. It is definitely not a job title that is self-explanatory. So typically a product developer in industry, that's a job title used for the person who really helps take the product from a sort of design sketch and works with a production facility to have them sample it and make it and put it through into mass production. And if you have a traditional fashion job, typically, the job title technical designer is used for the person who writes basically a technical spec of the product—creates drawings for the product, diagrams, measurements, and things like that. If you work for a very small company, or if you're a founder, you might have the same person doing those two roles. If you worked for a big company, it would likely be two different people in those roles.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so I think the way that I explain or understand it is sort of product development is that process that happens between design and production. And technical design is an aspect, part of product development, right?
Belinda Jacobs
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's part of product development. Yeah, and it's kind of an extension of design. So sort of the origin of your design might be more creative. And then sort of once you've got the creative vision, you can get into the technical details, the nitty gritty of the product and, you know, figure out the ins and outs of how everything works basically so yeah a technical designer would help you with that.
Glynis Tao
And many of you listeners may not know this, but I have actually started my career in product design and product development and production.
Belinda Jacobs
Yay!
Glynis Tao
So for over a decade, I was very heavily involved in the production side, product side of things before I got into SEO and tech. And so I think that's the reason why I wanted to reach out to you and talk to you because that was my background and I just feel like I miss it. So it's just nice to talk about it. And I think it's an area that not a lot of people, if you're not in this industry, you may not understand just what the full scope of what product development is because oftentimes people don't even think they're like, they understand design and they understand manufacturing. Then they often see a sketch and then they see the end product, but they don't see all the things that happen in between. And there are a lot of steps that have to happen in between just in order for that garment to be made. Right?
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, I mean, of course, how would you know what's in that in-between stage?
Glynis Tao
What are the biggest misconceptions fashion founders have about product development when they're first starting out?
Belinda Jacobs
For founders who are first starting out at all with any kind of product developments, I definitely see people being surprised about both the timeline and the cost. So depending on how complex your product is, obviously, you know, timeline and budget can vary, but like you say, because if you've not been in the industry before, people don't typically realize exactly how much is involved with that process. And so I definitely, you know, would advise new founders to get clarity on what that timeline and, and their budget is for that process before kind of starting.
In the same way, I think there's also a similar misconception for founders who are maybe developing products for an existing brand but in a new category because again products really vary by category depending what sort of factory they're made in or what sort of materials they use. So I think things can look very different depending on what the product is exactly which you know again people don't often realize.
Glynis Tao
Mm-hmm. And you mainly work on apparel, I guess, clothing.
Belinda Jacobs
We do, yeah.
Glynis Tao
Can you just sort of tell us, yeah, what you do?
Belinda Jacobs
We work on a lot of apparel for sure and we also do a lot of bags. We do a lot of textile accessories and soft goods. So other things like pet products, medical products, homewares, things like that, but all soft goods, so made from fabrics.
Glynis Tao
Can you walk us through what good product development actually looks like behind the scenes from idea to final product? And then part two, what expensive mistakes do you see founders make early on so that they know what to look out for and avoid making those mistakes?
Belinda Jacobs
Yes. Okay, okay, well big big questions. I think a specifically good product development process is really anchored around what the brand's goals are for, not just for that specific product but for their brand in general and looking at what kind of budget they have again and what kind of timeline they have again because there are just like there are you know, a million different types of products out there. There's also a million different ways that you can approach product development or you can approach manufacturing in general. So I think starting with that lens of what do we have the capacity for? And what are our goals? If you can answer those questions clearly, you can pick the development route more effectively. You can go super custom, you can go with something that's a little bit more ready-made, you can go with more easily available materials, or yeah, there's just a lot of sort of key underlying decisions you can use to sort of guide the project. So yeah, that's how I would describe good product development.
And what are some of the most expensive mistakes, did you say, that we see founders making?
Glynis Tao
Mistakes that you see founders making early on.
Belinda Jacobs
Hmm, I think the first one that comes to mind is founders who are new to manufacturing, contacting a factory or a supplier and kind of getting started on the project and getting things sewn and made without first a what we call a tech pack, which is basically like a document that's full of drawings and specs and requirements. I think that it really pays off in the end to have spent a bit more extra time in the design phase to develop proper specs. Really get clear on exactly how the design should look, what the material should be, how it should function, that kind of thing, before actually starting to go out and get things made and start iterating on the final product. It's just a much slower and more convoluted process when you sort of don't reverse engineer the process and really get things down on paper first.
Glynis Tao
Do you get a lot of people coming in who perhaps only have the design or sketch made and then they come to you and you help them with the rest? I mean, do many people that come in have a fashion background or are they mainly just creating designs and then having you help them turn that into a physical product?
Belinda Jacobs
It does vary. We work with a few sort of slightly larger brands who have more product development experience and already have sort of a lot of existing products. But we also work with a slightly larger majority of clients who are new brands. They don't necessarily have experience in the fashion industry or in manufacturing at all. So yeah, typically they'd come to us with usually some kind of design idea, but you know how sort of final that idea is varies. And yes, we help them sort of make that idea commercial and make it manufacturable as well.
Glynis Tao
Mm-hmm. And like I can imagine that your job probably involves a lot of educating people on, you know, whatever it is that they need to know or set those sort of parameters, realistic timelines. I'm sure maybe you get these, you know, people who think they can come in with a design idea and have it ready for production in like a matter of weeks. So does that happen a lot for you?
Belinda Jacobs
Yes, yeah, I think because it is, it's not just sort of, it's an industry that you wouldn't really know any details about if you'd never worked in it before. So yeah, you sort of have to, I suppose educate, like you say is the word, but yeah, just try and set expectations so that everyone knows what to expect basically. Yeah, like you say, if you sort of want to develop something very custom, it's not going to take just a few weeks.
Glynis Tao
Right, it could take months, if not more time for this to turn around. So that's why, you know, people need to understand the lead times, the turnaround times and how long it takes just to have a product, you know, go from design to product development to production. And that's not even counting your production lead time, which is, you know, it’s added on top of the raw development phase. That's the point where you actually have your samples ready to go into production, right? So you get them up to the point where they're samples ready to go into production. I guess it would really depend, timeline wise, on what type of product it is—the design, the complexity, and whether or not the materials are even available. So how do you usually scope it out?
Belinda Jacobs
So one of the first things we do is sit down with the client, establish what it is that they want to do, and then we build out a timeline for them. So how long that timeline is depends on their experience, the type of product they want to make, the type of materials that they want to use, and how available those are. And then any other sourcing requirements that they have as well, because some brands want to be working in certain places in the world or be getting materials from specific suppliers or locations. So it's sort of a multitude of factors that will basically put into a timeline, stick it all into a sheet for them. And yeah, that gives us a good idea of at least what timeline we're aiming towards. Like you say, you can factor in things like your production lead time, your sampling lead time, shipping time, et cetera, et cetera. And then you kind of build yourself out a calendar. And that way you can keep referring back to it once you're in progress midway through the project and see, you know, are we on time? Are we late? Do we need to pivot? Things like that.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. That's why I always tell people that calendars are your BFF. There's just so much planning involved in this whole process. At what stage should a founder bring in someone like you versus trying to figure things out themselves?
Belinda Jacobs
Good question. It depends on your budget and your timeline and your goals. I guess I keep saying that a lot, don't I? But if you want to make something very quickly, or you want to make something very cost effectively, or you just want to make something in a super teeny tiny limited quantity, then it makes less sense to kind of expand the project and get more people on. You just maybe want to think about more of a sort of quick and dirty way of doing it for lack of a better word. Whereas if you are trying to develop something that's going to be, you know, a cornerstone of your brand, or you're going to make a bigger quantity of it, or it's going to be sort of a hero product that you can develop other products off of later. Or if you're in a very tight timeline, again, then it starts making a lot more sense to get somebody else to advise you on everything that you don't know about and keep things on track and keep things moving efficiently.
Glynis Tao
I think if someone doesn't come from a fashion background, doesn't have formal training in this, I mean, I guess they could eventually figure it out themselves and, you know, try to work with a pattern maker or sample sewer, go to manufacturing, but I think they'll make a lot of mistakes along the way that can be very costly. And I've heard this, you know, from brands that have done this time and time again. They're like, oh my God. I've wasted so much money and time even on trying to figure out these things myself as opposed to perhaps going to, you know, a professional expert like yourself, right? Who can help them get it done right the first time.
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, for sure.
Glynis Tao
We're gonna just move into product strategy and profitability now. How can founders balance creativity? I should say how can founders and designers balance creativity with commercial viability when designing a collection?
Belinda Jacobs
One way I like to think about this question is, and I say this to clients a lot, is let's try to think a little bit bigger and a little bit more creatively at the beginning of the project. And then as we work our way through the product development process, practical constraints will start to develop basically or mold the products and the process. So you can sort of let that be the commercial direction of the product and try to be a little bit more creative with the vision upfront, rather than sort of creating commercial or practical constraints right at the beginning of the project before you actually know specifics from a supplier or specifics from, a logistic standpoint or whatever it is of what can or can't be done. So yeah, I typically say that to clients if there's a specific question that they're not sure about, you know, should I go with the better or more fun option or should I go with the more practical option is yeah, if you're kind of on the fence, that's how I like to think about it.
Glynis Tao
And do you help them out with that aspect of the business as well?
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, absolutely. There's just sort of lots of small things that you pick up along the way from experience about, you know, small details about specific trims or ways of working or methods of manufacturing, things like that, that all can sort of, we can use that experience to help us, you know, advise clients on their product, basically.
Glynis Tao
And you also help advise on their commercial viability of the product. While we're talking about that, can you tell us what are some signs a product idea might look good but won't actually sell?
Belinda Jacobs
So the first example to sort of answer that question, the first thing that comes to mind is using the retail price at the beginning of the project to guide the decisions that we make about design and materials and keeping in mind if the product was sold, let's say in a department store or on like a, you know, multi brand site, like, you know, shop both or whatever, where, you know, lots of brands are, where keeping in mind, where would your product sit in terms of placement next to other brands and in terms of, you know, the range of prices that products in your market are going to be sold at? Knowing exactly where you want to sit is a good way to sort of filter those decisions through.
Packaging is another thing that comes to mind. So through logistics and delivery methods and business models as well. So how are customers going to be buying your product? How are they going to receive it? Knowing how that works for your brand is also going to inform some design decisions, particularly with regards to things like labels and packaging and hang tags. Obviously, you know, there are some things that are good for read down, there are some things that are better for ecommerce.
What else there are some sort of like details and colors that maybe don't photograph as well as other details and colors. Something else that comes up a lot is minimum order quantities. So if you work with a factory who's sewing your garments or products, typically, they'll have a minimum order quantity, which is like a minimum units you have to buy from them in order for them to be profitable and to kind of accept your order. We know sort of a budget for inventory sort of their marketing plan, we can think about how many units they're going to be ordering. And again, that can be used to inform product development decisions because some processes and materials are less likely to be available at really small order quantities. And obviously at larger order quantities, there are more options available to you in terms of, you know, those details. So that's sort of another piece of data that's really good to know at the beginning as well.
Glynis Tao
And are there manufacturers that you work with as well? Or do you actually do production?
Belinda Jacobs
We don't do any production, no, but we do help clients. We help clients find and work with factories that would be a good fit for their brand and what it is that they're trying to make and do and hopefully who's a good fit for future products as well.
Glynis Tao
Right. Okay. So I'm sure you have a pretty good database of suppliers, including fabrics, trims, notions, all those things, right? Because they all come into play and the product can't be made if you're missing even one of those components. Right? Belinda Jacobs
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Yeah. So many moving parts to all this stuff. So do you also help with the pricing aspect?
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Glynis Tao
Because you were saying in terms of assessing commercial viability is starting with the retail price and what they tend to sell product for, and then kind of working backwards from there and understanding what all the costs are going to be involved, right? From the production side, there's unit costs. There's also going to be the product development side, right? And I guess that bigger chunk of the cost kind of gets amortized across depending on the number of the quantities that you make. But I think that all kind of comes into play when determining the commercial viability of things, because people are not aware of how much your initial costs are going to be. You could end up with a very expensive product at the end that may not sell.
Belinda Jacobs
Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Which is why it's so essential really to know those kinds of key numbers at the beginning before you start the project to just make sure that there's no red flags in terms of there's no red flag numbers or sort of that everything should line up. And yeah, if you don't plan your profit margins at the start, then profit is not sort of gonna magically appear at the end unless you've engineered everything for there to actually be some kind of profit margin.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, margins are very important and knowing what your margins are. I think oftentimes, designers come in with a grand idea of a design being a certain way, but then at the end, realize that the cost is going to be too high with all the bells and whistles that they want to have on the design, right?
Belinda Jacobs
Yep.
Glynis Tao
Every seam, every button, every zipper is gonna add to the costs.
Belinda Jacobs
Yes.
Glynis Tao
So, do you actually consult and help them decide, okay, here's some things you can do to help, you know, improve your margins?
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, absolutely. Because, like you say, there's so many components that go into it. So, you know, what do you take out? What do you add? What do you change that's actually going to make a difference to your margin, but not make a big difference to that functionality or the quality or like the experience of your product for the customer? So there are definitely ways that you can engineer everything so that you're not sort of ruining the quality of your garments. But you can still sort of take some things out that might be a little bit more costly, to help to get that unit cost and your margin up a little bit because not every sort of piece of material and component is obviously going to be equal in cost. Some things are going to make more of a difference than others.
Glynis Tao
Do you produce all the tech packs for your clients that come in? I guess my question is, there's kind of two schools of thought in terms of investing in tech packs right off the bat in the beginning. Can you get away with just a pattern and a sample? Or is it important to have a well-built tech pack? And what separates a good one from a bad one?
Belinda Jacobs
It's very important, I would say.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I think it's pretty important because for people who are listening and don't know what it is, it's essentially you're the blueprint of a house, right? The tech package.
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, it's going to be the instructions and the diagrams showing everything that a factory is going to need to know to make a product. So yeah, I mean, it's pretty essential unless what you're making is just so, so teeny tiny and small and you know, there's just like no quantity and no budget. Then yeah, it's essential otherwise you're really taking a gamble without it.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And having worked for a lot of large brands and corporations, I worked on the technical design as a technical designer and product developer. You know, the main job, our function of our job was creating tech packs. Especially, you know, if you are working with a factory overseas, it's your communication tool. The way I see it is that everything stems from the tech pack, right?
Belinda Jacobs
Mm-hmm.
Glynis Tao
And that even if you don't have a pattern, but you have a tech pack, that the factory can at least build a pattern based off the tech pack or the yeah, pattern and sample off of that. And everything stems through that and all the measurements from the specs are telling them exactly what the final product should look like. What the measurements should be and how it should fit and everything. All the communication and back and forth because there's so much back and forth happening in product development that all of that has to be documented inside your tech pack as well.
Belinda Jacobs
Yep, yep, absolutely. It definitely makes a huge difference to have one central document where all of those decisions and pieces of information are because yeah, there's just too many details to be keeping track of unless you are really organized.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. And everything gets documented within the tech pack itself. And so in case anything should happen, and I find even with the best made plans, always something happens in production. If you document things and something happens and comes out wrong for whatever reason, you sort of know what to go back to and say, well, this is not what we had approved previously, right? And at least there's some proof that you can go back on later.
Belinda Jacobs
We're here.
Glynis Tao
So I want to shift into something that really stood out to me, and that's the intersection of SEO and product development.
Belinda Jacobs
Okay, yeah.
Glynis Tao
In my world, we're always looking at search behavior and customer intent and it got me thinking, is there an opportunity for brands to use that data earlier in the process, even before a product is created? What are your thoughts on that?
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, I think that is super interesting. Sales are really so much easier when you are using data from your own customer about what they want, right? Obviously, it's a pretty self-explanatory concept. So yeah, if there are ways that brands can use search data, which is effectively, you know, early indication of trends, right? If brands have a way to use that to inform the product mix or, you know, how they plan their collections. Yeah, I think that's an amazing thing.
Glynis Tao
I love this idea of connecting SEO and product development. I never even thought of it that way. It is helpful to use search data to inform what they design because it shows the demand, right? And like you said, the trends that are happening out there.
Belinda Jacobs
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Glynis Tao
Have you seen any examples where products succeeded because it aligned with real demand versus just creative instinct?
Belinda Jacobs
I don't know that I've seen it with SEO specifically, but when I used to work more in the fast fashion world, we looked at what people were wearing online and in magazines and what trends were on the runway and just used those visuals to inform the product mix and the collections. So I think, and that always worked really well to predict demand. So I think if you actually had search data from, you know, your actual target market or, you know, visitors of your website, yeah, that, would be even more amazing. That would be even better than just sort of following generic trends out there. It would be really market specific. If you could get that data, it would be great.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I kind of love that, like that part of my job, because I like to say that I sit at the intersection of fashion and tech. And so this part of me, which is still really ingrained in me, right? Like the fashion side of the business and, you know, yeah, following trends, but now using actual data to make those informed decisions, because I can tell my clients what is actually selling, what is trending, what are people searching for? Or it's like, you know, if we happen to see a lot of traffic for a certain product page, that just shows demand, right? And so if we're driving traffic to that page, then you better make sure that you have that inventory to support that demand, right? And oftentimes clients are not as proactive maybe in that way, because in their gut perhaps they're sensing that this design should be doing well. But I'm like, wait, look at the data, you know. People are looking at this. They're going to this page there. And if the inventory is there, they don't have an inventory of that product. It's sold out. You're missing out on a huge opportunity, right? And so that's in a way how I see this connection between understanding your search demand with having your product available.
Belinda Jacobs
And how easy it is to place repeat orders of the same product. If something is high in demand, you want to just be able to get more of it quickly. That starts off with good search data. But then it also feeds back into your product development process and having a good tech pack and having a good relationship with the supplier so that you can make sure that you can fulfill the demand. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Reproduce to meet the demand quickly. And that's sort of what the benefits of local production is—the quick turnaround time. But it could also inform you of perhaps a certain style that's selling well, you know. Maybe you want to produce it in a different color, a different print or something. But then that way you already have the tech pack of this garment made that it would be a lot easier to produce the garment without having to start from scratch again.
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, exactly. And then once you've launched an initial range of products, that's a different source of data that you can use to predict demand for various things. You know, how well has your previous set of products sold and which of those do you want to kind of spin off into something that's, you know, similar, but with a twist. That way you can hopefully predict some demand. And at the same time, have an easier time with the product development process because it's not a totally new product. It's just an iteration on an existing product.
Glynis Tao
In your experience, what do you think is a skill that modern founders need to develop to stay competitive in a product-based business?
Belinda Jacobs
I mean, for any business, a big asset is being somebody who's always learning, always evolving, improving what you do constantly—updating your systems, moving with the times using new technology, stuff like that.
Another skill particularly for product founders that's good to have is to be really organized and to be really good at logistics because that’s usually the biggest part of your day if you are a founder of a product brand. The organization and emailing and calendars like you say and making sure everything is where it should be at the right time. That the right people have the right information, things like that. Such a huge chunk of your day to day is going to be logistics and communication and information. I think an underrated skill is definitely how organized you are. That's a bit bigger than you realize.
Glynis Tao
Before we wrap up, what's something you're currently working on or excited about that people should know about?
Belinda Jacobs
I'm very excited to be working on, for our company, something that has been an idea in the back of my mind for a long time, which is for our tech pack service specifically. We are working on a way of onboarding new clients and new products, using a software platform that incorporates AI. So we're working on a way for brands to be able to hand off all the details of their designs to our team really easily, without, you know, needing amazing professional drawings or sort of everything written up in a certain way and to have the output on our back end sort of come out in a way that the team can use to just start work on the brand's tech packs right away. I need a better name for that system than what I just gave you. But yeah, that's something exciting that we're working on.
Glynis Tao
So is that ready-made like a software that you have purchased or something that you're developing?
Belinda Jacobs
It’s something that we're developing, yeah. And it would just be for our clients to use.
Glynis Tao
That's exciting. So that'll be something proprietary that's unique to you or to your business.
Belinda Jacobs
Yeah, exactly.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Belinda Jacobs
They can find us over at our website, which is techpacks.co. You can join our email list there. We email a couple of times a week about product development and manufacturing and design. One day I hope to have a podcast as lovely as this as well.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Thank you so much, Belinda, for joining me and sharing your insight and expertise. I know this is going to help a lot of founders think differently about how they approach product development.
Liliane Daou shares how she moved from consulting to building CAHAIA, a culture house that designs wearable accessories and objects with the intention of spotlighting different cultures. CAHAIA was created through a series of intentional steps grounded in skill-building, financial planning, and long-term vision rather than a leap of faith. Liliane emphasizes how her strategy background informs her approach to business, and how that execution and iteration matter more than ideas alone. The conversation also challenges common myths around the luxury industry, revealing that building a meaningful brand is a slow process rooted in storytelling, trust, and world-building before sales. This episode encourages founders to think long-term, embrace uncertainty with structure, and build sustainably by combining creativity with strategic discipline.
About Liliane Daou
Liliane Daou is a former BCG consultant, cultural storyteller, and founder of CAHAIA, a culture house that transforms the identity of cities into design objects, beginning with handbags crafted from vinyl records. After six years advising global media, technology, and consumer companies, she stepped away from a structured consulting career to pursue a more creative and purpose-driven path at the intersection of strategy, culture, and design. Today, Liliane continues to work as an independent strategy consultant, partnering with leading organizations including The Business of Fashion, while building CAHAIA as a long-term luxury brand rooted in cultural narrative rather than scale. Her work is defined by a rare ability to bridge high-level business strategy with deeply intentional storytelling, helping reimagine how brands can create meaning, relevance, and lasting cultural impact.
Start small and intentionally to strengthen your brand positioning early on.
Stay anchored in a long-term vision while detaching from short-term fluctuations and comparisons.
Surround yourself with a strong support system—entrepreneurship is easier to sustain when shared with people who challenge and encourage you.
To minimize risk when transitioning to entrepreneurship, build financial buffers, test the market, and create fallbacks.
Focus on execution and iteration over perfect ideas.
Build luxury (or any meaningful brand) through storytelling and world-building before focusing on sales or scale.
Prioritize awareness and cultural relevance in the early stages as trust and desire take time to develop.
Interview Themes
What does it actually take to build a luxury or meaningful brand?
Building a strong brand requires more than a product—it requires world-building. Storytelling, cultural relevance, and a clear narrative create desire and emotional connection, which must come before focusing on scaling or driving sales.
Why should you start small when building a brand?
Starting small allows you to test your idea, refine your product, and build intentional brand positioning without overcommitting resources. Limited production not only reduces risk but can also create scarcity, which strengthens perceived value—especially in premium or luxury markets.
How should founders think about risk when transitioning to entrepreneurship?
Risk shouldn’t be seen as a leap, but something to manage strategically. By building financial buffers, testing the market, and creating fallback options, founders can make more confident decisions while maintaining flexibility if things don’t go as planned.
Why should early-stage brands prioritize awareness over sales?
In the beginning, people need a reason to care before they’re ready to buy. Focusing on awareness and cultural relevance helps build trust and familiarity, which are essential for long-term conversion and brand loyalty.
How can founders stay grounded while building something long-term?
Staying anchored in a long-term vision helps navigate the inevitable ups and downs of entrepreneurship. Detaching from short-term results and avoiding constant comparison allows founders to focus on their own path and pace.
Why is having a support system so important in entrepreneurship?
Building a business can be emotionally and mentally demanding. Having people who challenge, support, and share the journey with you provides stability, perspective, and motivation—making the process more sustainable over time.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Liliane Daou and Her Journey
03:54 Transitioning from Consulting to Entrepreneurship
10:08 Leveraging Consulting Skills in Building CAHAIA
12:13 The Evolution of CAHAIA: From Handbags to Cultural Storytelling
19:24 The Reality of Building a Luxury Brand
24:35 Manufacturing Challenges and Processes
29:07 Defining Culture and Its Role in CAHAIA
31:28 Balancing Patience and Ambition in Entrepreneurship
Transcript
Liliane Daou
I think the biggest thing for us is mindset launching. I think we launched and thinking we need to convert, we need to sell. But then now, with time, we realize that there is a big part in the beginning stages of a brand that is trying to position itself in premium or luxury. There's a big part of world building, creating that desire, creating this culture and relevance.
The storytelling, which I don't think we're perfect at it in any way or another. We're still learning, but just having this mindset that we should focus on sales, world building and awareness and this traffic is as important and it should potentially, in the first initial stages, the first year be the main focus of the brand versus trying to sell.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Today's guest is Liliane Daou, a former BCG consultant turned founder and cultural storyteller who is redefining what it means to build a brand at the intersection of strategy, culture, and design. After spending six years advising global media, tech, and consumer companies, Liliane made the decision to step away from a prestigious and structured career to pursue a more creative and purpose-driven path.
She is now the founder of CAHAIA Culture House that translates the identity of cities into design objects, starting with handbags made from vinyl records. Alongside building CAHAIA, Liliane continues to work as an independent strategy consultant, advising leading companies, including the business of fashion. What makes her perspective especially unique is her ability to bridge two worlds that don't often intersect, high level business strategy and deeply intentional cultural storytelling. In today's conversation, we are going beyond the highlight reel. We're talking about what it really feels like to leave stability behind, how to think long-term when building a luxury brand without scale, and how to use your existing skills to create a more sustainable path into entrepreneurship.
If you've ever felt pulled in a different direction, but weren't sure how to navigate the uncertainty, this episode is going to give you both the mindset and the strategy to think differently about your next move. Welcome, Liliane. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Liliane Daou
Thank you so much. What a nice introduction. I'm honored really. Thank you so much. Everything is spot on.
Glynis Tao
Well you have such an interesting story and I'm so happy to share it.
Liliane Daou
Thank you. And yeah, we're going to dive into so many different topics. So I'm excited to share it with your audience.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. Liliane, I'm really excited for this conversation because your journey sits at such an interesting intersection of strategy and creativity. You started in a world that's very structured, very analytical, advising global companies at BCG, which is one of the world's top strategy consulting firms. And now you're building something that's deeply rooted in culture and storytelling. I’d love to start at the beginning of that transition. Can you take us back to the moment you realized you wanted something different from your career and what that actually felt like?
Liliane Daou
Yeah. And at the base, I also studied electrical engineering, which is very different from what I'm doing now. It's interesting because I always knew that the career path I took right after college, which is working in one of the biggest management consulting firms such as BCG, was not really what I wanted to do long term. I knew that I was taking this path as a step towards a longer term goal or dream that I have. And I knew that I needed it. I needed the skills, the expertise. I needed the confidence. It was going to give me credibility. Now that I'm building a business, I feel so much more confident or capable and more credible to go and pitch it to investors if I ever need that. So it wasn't really that I woke up one day and I realized I want to completely switch. I kind of knew from the beginning that I had to do this because it will arm me to be able to build whatever I want to build later on. And creativity has always been something I enjoyed doing. I never really pursued it. I always liked writing. I published a book very early in my life. I have a travel blog. So I've always kind of had it in my career. I think very recently I decided that I want to make it much more bigger than just a hobby. And why not try to pursue it and make it my career eventually? Sometimes in life you just have to do things that on a day to day are not really what you want to do, but they arm you for your future self. And that was me, I would say, with the career that I took until now.
Glynis Tao
Walking away from a prestigious stable career is something a lot of people dream about but don't actually do. What did that transition really feel like behind the scenes?
Liliane Daou
Definitely not very easy. I think mentally I was very prepared and ready for it. I knew that this day would come, this transition would come. I think it was harder emotionally or psychologically because the career that I had was very demanding. It was kind of all my life. I would spend very long hours in the office with a specific set of people, traveling all the time. So I really had a specific lifestyle and walking away from it felt like an identity shift. It's not that I'm losing a job. I'm losing my routine and the people that I was surrounded with, the lifestyle it gave me. So I think this was harder. But I think I was ready for it. I knew that I was planning for it over the years. And honestly, I'm still very pragmatic now. It's not that I walked away from corporate and I'm never going to do corporate. As you mentioned in the intro, I'm still freelancing now as an independent consultant. I also believe that I might need a full-time corporate job at some point because building a business, in my industry, which is like culture, fashion, luxury, takes a lot of time. It takes a minimum three to five years until you see the fruits of it. And so the reality is like, I am going to need another job. And there is also so much still to learn from corporate, I believe.
But I think the role that corporate plays in my life has kind of changed. Initially, it was my life. That's what I spent my time doing, always working. It was a very demanding job. And now the way I see it is, OK, I want to build my business. Being realistic, how can I use corporate to help me do that? Is the job that I can get that gives me the flexibility time-wise that also positions me in an industry or next to people or topics that will help me with my business and my brand versus doing something that's like, completely different. So just changing the role that corporate would play in my life is a shift that I had. But yeah, I think any change that happened in your life is hard, but change is also good. So like sometimes you just have to like make the decision and like proceed, you know?
Glynis Tao
So was your decision to leave more of a leap or series of calculated steps? And how did you think through risk at that time?
Liliane Daou
Yeah, definitely not a leap. I'm very much a planner. I have like a plan A, B, C, D that I always return to. And so like, yeah, I think like I looked at it from a different perspective, like from a career perspective, did I achieve all the milestones I wanted to achieve with my previous career? Like, did I get the promotion or the title I wanted? Did I work in the country that I wanted? Because I moved from Dubai to New York. Did I get the degree or did my company also support me in my MBA? So did I hit all these milestones before leaving? So this was one thing.
The other thing is I also took some time off before leaving to just test the market and have conversations with people in the industry I wanted to build my business in or potentially find a part-time job and see what's my value in the market? Would it be easy for me to find something that sustains me while I build my business? I did that to kind of be more sure of my decision. Also like financially, I made sure I have savings that can help me sustain myself without a source of income for a certain period of time. I live in New York. It's like one of the most expensive places. So these things, and I think also having a support system is very important. And for me, I'm lucky like, I'm building my business with my siblings. We're four kids. We're all partners in the business. All very close, very supportive of each other, and just having them being supportive of the decision that I'm taking and literally being like, Liliane, leave and fail and we will pick you up. This helps so much. So yeah, I think the way I thought about risk was, OK, I had an amazing career. I looked at the market, and I feel like I can find something else. I have some buffer and I have the support, like, let's do it. What's the worst case? I go back to BCG, you know? a lot about rationalizing in your brain, taking these small steps, but also having the people around you that support you in this decision and are always there to like with you when you're in moments of doubt.
Glynis Tao
How have your strategy and consulting skills shaped the way that you're building CAHAIA today?
Liliane Daou
Yeah, I think consulting or like the path I had really helped me from like a business perspective. It taught me all the foundations of a business. I think being a founder, it's very important, especially in the creative world, like it is important to have the creative aspect, but it's as important and even more important to know how to run a business eventually. Like you want the money, want the sales. And so like I got all these foundations from my career, like how to build a strategy, how to put a plan, to analyze numbers, and how do I price my products, how do I sell? All of these foundations, I'm very grateful that I got them from being a consultant. It also, I think, taught me discipline and being able to adapt quickly. Because when I worked in my previous job, it was very demanding. You had to be online 24-7. One day, you're working on something, the next day the client wants something else. So you need to adapt and pivot quickly. And I think these are also very important when you're building your own thing. But I do think there's a big aspect that I did not learn. And it was a big gap for me, which is execution. And yes, in consulting, we put things on paper. We give it to our clients. And then they have to execute. So we leave then. But in entrepreneurship, execution is everything. If you have something on paper, it means nothing until you do it, you fail, you realize that you have to change. And I think that's one skill that I had to teach myself and push myself to be okay with just doing things. And even if it's not like the accurate thing to do now, just like trying this thing and learning from what we see or like the data, what the data is sending us. So, it definitely helped me a lot, but there are certain things that I wish I had more exposure to.
Glynis Tao
CAHAIA is positioned as a culture house that translates cities into wearables and objects, blending fashion, music and travel. How did that concept first take shape for you? And how has it evolved from starting with vinyl record handbags into a broader creative vision?
Liliane Daou
This is a very long story. I think our vision and our journey has evolved so much over the launch four months ago, so we're still very, very, very new. I don't want to speak as an expert on anything. I'm sharing what has happened with us. People see the product, but they don't see that we've been thinking about it, working for years around that concept. At the base, just quickly, our story is we are originally Lebanese. We grew up in Lebanon, which is a very small, beautiful country in the Middle East. But growing up, my parents would always send us to cultural exchange programs. Since we were 10 years old, they would send us alone, me and my siblings, to travel and talk about our culture, but also learn other people's cultures. And it was just so embedded in how we grew up. From a very young age, friends from all over the world visited us, et cetera. So the culture piece and travel piece was ingrained in us. And particularly for me, at the age of 22, I lived on a ship for four months. traveled around 11 countries in these four months. And I saw so much of the world at a very young age, which kind of accentuated our love for culture and travel. And we've always wanted to work in that space.
But the way our idea came about, honestly, we've always tried to think about different things we can do and wanted to share what we had experienced with people. We felt very privileged that we saw so much of the world from a very young age, and we wanted other people to see what we saw, especially in today's world where there's so much instability and wars, even in my country. And sometimes countries are reduced to a very negative headline. There's so much more than that in a city. There's so much beauty and traditions and depth. And that's what we want to shed light on. But so honestly, over the years, we never had an idea that really clicked. We would pitch ideas. We would think about stuff. And so at some point, we just took a step back and we were like, maybe we shouldn't do this or pursue culture and travel. Until one day, a few years back, my brother, my twin brother actually he comes to us and he just pitched this idea of vinyl handbags. And at the time, I had just moved to New York and I started getting so much into fashion. I've always loved fashion, but New York had kind of expanded my style and taste and I started appreciating statement pieces. And so when he pitched this idea to us, we were like, my God, interesting. Like, okay, vinyl handbags. He also has a lot of vinyls at home. So we decided to produce one prototype and for me to walk around New York with that bag. And so like I did that for a few months and in three months we were able to kind of get almost 100 followers on CAHAIA's Instagram with no photos, no website, nothing. It was just me walking around New York and people stopping me and asking me, your bag is so cool. Like, where is it from? And so we just tell people like, follow us on Instagram. We're launching soon, you know? And that's when we realized like, okay, this could be a business idea.
It started really as a fashion piece. And when we started producing our handbags, at some point we got a legal hiccup. We realized that we can't choose any kind of discs. If they have the names of the artists, we might get into copyright issues and stuff like that. And so really, midway through us doing all of this, we had to take a decision. Do we drop the idea or do we recreate the vinyl and recreate the label? And that's when we decided let's recreate it, but everything clicked. We were like, my god, because now we can recreate the vinyl, can write about the music scene in cities. We can use that object or product to tell the stories of cultures and sounds in cities. And it's not anymore about the handbag, but the meaning behind it. And so that's how it evolved into becoming very cultural.
Again, over the years now, we're like, OK, we don't need to stick to handbags. We need to do more objects or maybe spaces. But at its core, everything needs to translate cities and cultures, whether it's a fashion piece or an object. We see these as mediums and tools for our
Glynis Tao
So you started with vinyl record handbags, it's like a signature item I see on your website right now. It's very unique. It stands out. What drew you specifically to vinyl records as your starting point and what did they symbolize in the context of culture and storytelling within your brand? I think you touched on that in terms of your background and story, but maybe expand more into how you are able to take the handbags and then to turn it into an actual piece.
Liliane Daou
Yeah, so basically like the way we see culture is people express themselves in a place or a geography. And it could be through things like the music they produce, the arts they produce, the way they wear their style or the architecture that they make, which eventually creates the city and this whole ecosystem. And so music is a very big cultured expression wherever you go. And that's our idea. We took a symbol of music, which is a vinyl record that also was once destined to waste. take vinyl records and we upcycle them. it's like a music symbol and we kind of give it a new life and we make a handbag out of it. And our concept is like every city, every collection is going to be a city and every handbag will tell the story of a music genre from the city. And so the design of the handbag, the design of the label needs to kind of say this. Like we started with New York and we have four handbags. Each one is a sound that is very prominent in New York. We have the jazz, the hip hop, the blues and disco and all of these sounds. Like if you live in New York, you come here, you will definitely will encounter them and hear them. And in different settings and setups and ways, you know, like when you think about jazz, it's like these very elegant jazz bars in New York. And we tried to replicate or translate that with the burgundy color being very minimalistic. But then when you think about disco, it's a bit more courageous and it's more fun. So our label has like a small illustration that we used silver to translate that. So this is how we took like a symbol of music and we turned it into something that you can own. And also we wanted it to be a handbag because we wanted the culture to be carried like culture isn't always something you can get a souvenir and put it at home like we wanted that to symbolize something that you can have with you and wear around and carry with you every day. So this is how we thought about it and like music is one cultural expression Our vision is to also translate other things in a city like the performing arts scene the street culture Everything that makes up a city and its culture. This is what CAHAIA is aimed to do. Again, this is our vision. We're still in very early stages. Things can change. The market can tell us, people love your handbags. You just need to double down on handbags. But our vision as of now is how do we expand beyond that, keeping the culture at its core?
Glynis Tao
There's often this perception that luxury brands launch and quickly gain traction. What has your experience actually look like?
Liliane Daou
I think this is very different than reality. Honestly, luxury is very slow. In our case, we thankfully got a lot of traction in the first few months of launching, maybe because it was the launch hype, but friends and friends of friends and even complete strangers heard about us somehow and were curious and were buying our handbags. But in general, luxury is very slow because you are convincing someone to buy a piece for $600 plus when they don't know who you are, they just discovered you. They want to dig deeper and try to learn more about you, you haven't had the time to build that. You probably have one blog on your website, a few posts on your Instagram. There is a whole world-building phase that needs a lot of time. And so in general, luxury is on the contrary. It's very slow, I would say. It's different than what people think. There is overnight stories, definitely, but it would be outliers, I would say. It would be people who already are in that scene, already have the connections, or have a lot of capital for marketing or the PR. I think in our case, we started off very strong, but we're aware that this might slow down because like, building a world, you know, and you're trying to build trust and repetition and storytelling and all of this takes time.
Glynis Tao
And I think you're building a lot of that trust through your storytelling on your social channels. I think you do an amazing job on your social Instagram telling a story behind the brand. And one post that really caught my attention was you saying that, well, most brands launch within a year, but for us it took three years. So what are some things you wish you knew before starting a luxury brand that would have changed how you approach the early stages? You're in it, still in it right now, right? Because you just recently launched, but maybe some of those things that you've learned along the way.
Liliane Daou
Yeah, I think the biggest thing for us is mindset launching. I think we launched and thinking we need to convert, we need to sell. But now with time, we realize that there is a big part in the beginning stages of a brand that is trying to position itself in premium or luxury. There's a big part of world building, creating that desire, creating this culture and relevance. The storytelling, which we try to do. I don't think we're perfect at it in any way or another. We're still learning, but just having this mindset that we should focus on sales, but we're building awareness and this traffic is as important and it should potentially in the first initial stages, like the first year be the main focus of the brand versus trying to sell.
To convince people, you need to let them want to be part of what you're building, even if eventually they will not be the customer or people who are going to buy your product. But I think that this is one thing that we kind of knew about, but not as much as when we started and we were like, OK, we are a premium brand. We need to build a world around it. We need people to really understand what is the culture house. It's much more beyond than a handbag. And we need to have, I don't know, blogs. We need to have stories, all of these things. Our campaigns always need to be top notch. A lot of these things that we knew about, but I think once you get into it, it becomes very concrete. So I think this is the biggest learning and the mindset switch from conversion to awareness and word building.
Glynis Tao
Many founders think they need to scale before they can position themselves as luxury. What's your perspective on that?
Liliane Daou
I think the opposite, when you like so much scale can dilute a luxury positioning. And for me, luxury is not equal to volume. Luxury really is based on quality storytelling, the brand perception you're creating and the price point that you have. And if you have these nailed down properly, then whether you're selling or producing 10, 15 handbags or thousands, you can still be associated with luxury. And I think these things are very important. They should become part of the identity of your brand, like who you are, what is your price point, et cetera. You should have them from the beginning of building a brand. I don't think building and scaling and then waking up one day and being like, I want to shift is very hard. I think you should start it from the beginning and compound and let it evolve. So they should be part of the core values or identity of a brand. But I don't think scale is really what matters. And on the contrary, I think having scarcity, being small, having limited editions is a powerful thing because then it adds more value to whatever product you are trying to sell.
Glynis Tao
This first launch of your vinyl records handbags collection, did you produce a limited run? Is there a limited quantity available?
Liliane Daou
Yeah, we have a limited quantity. One, it's because we didn't want to accumulate inventory. This is the most important thing when you're starting a brand. It's better to have pre-orders to be out of stock than to have, I don't know, 500 pieces laying down in your apartment and not knowing what to do with it. And eventually, if you have limited pieces, what's the worst case? If it doesn't work, you can stop and give them to your friends, your family, you know. But I think just having limited inventory is important just because you're still testing the market. But also, like for us, producing these handbags is not easy. It's a very complicated process. It's very long. So it's not like we can produce thousands and thousands all at once. And so we wanted to be conscious about the production that we want to do, how much we want to invest in, at the same time testing the market. Are people going to like this or not? Do we need to pivot and create a completely different product? And when you're still asking these questions at the beginning, it just makes more sense to have a fewer number of inventory.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And whoever loves these bags should get their hands on them because there are very few in production that have been produced, right? How did you go about finding the manufacturing for these? These are all handmade.
Liliane Daou
Yeah, we already sold out one of the colors. It's a whole supply chain. The way it starts is like we decide on what is the city we want to focus on. For us, it was New York. And then what are like the sounds or the stories of New York that we want to highlight? So we said like, okay, jazz, hip hop, et cetera. For each one of these, then we work with a designer, ideally like a local designer that also understands the culture of New York that helps us design the label of the disc. And then what we do is we ship that design or we send that design to our factory, the vinyl factory in Europe that basically recycles vinyl records and presses the record with the label design our label design. Once that's done, then they send it back to our atelier where we choose the leather, the stitching, and we assemble it.
There are so many different touch points. A lot of people ask us, can you customize a handbag for me? Can you do a design? We can't just talk to the factory and be like, okay, test this disc for me and do it. Yet, I think later on, if we scale and we're bigger, then we would love to do that. But it is a long process. There is so much in every step that needs to be done. We need to see the sample, do we like it or not, et cetera. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
It's so interesting. I love to hear more about that. It's sort of the process, you know, in terms of how you make your products. Is there a story that you could tell?
Liliane Daou
Definitely. We have a bit of it on our website. I think that's another thing that we need to shed more light on. When you start a brand, there's so many things you want to talk about, and you don't know whether you should talk about the process, the product, or even the family dynamics. We're four family members doing all of this. There's so much, and I think it takes time. But I know a lot of people are always curious with how we do our handbags because it is a very interesting and long process.
Glynis Tao
Is there somebody in your team or your family member who has a background in fashion, production, manufacturing?
Liliane Daou
No, not at all. We are all engineers or doctors, literally. Like me and two of my siblings were engineers and then my younger brother is a dentist. My parents are both doctors. So we really come from a very different background. Like we never had any connections or knowledge in the fashion space or culture. Like what we had is passion, dedication. We have a vision. We love storytelling. And we believe that, okay, like we've worked long enough with other people and other companies solving other companies' problems. Like we can figure it out, you know, but yeah, it is challenging because especially with fashion, which is like our first medium, you need to have a lot of connections. You need the PR, like the market is saturated. So it's a lot of things that we are building brick by brick. And now for example, I like freelancing in fashion companies because that helps me a lot more understanding like the dynamics of the fashion industry, the business behind it. I also get to know people that might become very valuable in our network. We don't have that background at all. I would say we're potentially creative. Like we love creativity, but we don't know how to sketch. We have a lot of very good freelancers that help us though, so we've been blessed to work with very talented people.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that's important. Your partners that you work with on the product side of the business. Really, it's important to ensure a very well-made, high quality product.
Liliane Daou
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Your work sits at the intersection of culture, travel, and fashion. How do you personally define culture?
Liliane Daou
Yeah, like it's what I mentioned before. I think culture for me is like how people express themselves and a specific place. Music, art, fashion—all of this sits under the umbrella of culture. And so it really is like how people gather, how do they dress, how do they communicate in a specific geography or place. I feel like it is like the umbrella that has all these other pillars. But yeah, it's the way that people express themselves in a place. That's how I think about it. I think culture could be defined or understood in very different ways to different people. But that's how I think about it. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And I think also you mentioned that your idea behind the brand was most of the time when you travel to a new city and then you leave, you have a feeling, but you don't have anything you could take with you from that city. And I think that's sort of the idea what you wanted to take, to be able to translate the culture of a city into a wearable object.
Liliane Daou
Yeah. And like for us, it's like, how can we get, I don't know, Rio de Janeiro closer to you without you having to travel there? And it can be through like a fashion piece, which are like our vinyl handbags. It could be through objects or artworks. We have a very big vision in like, what are the things we want to do? In your space, in your home, how can we bring this culture closer to you without you having to like travel, you know? We go to these places, we fall in love with them, we try to reinterpret them ourselves and create something that is tangible that people can hold. That's our vision now and our goal with CAHAIA.
Glynis Tao
Before we wrap up, how do you balance patience with ambition when you're building something long-term, especially in a world that pushes for fast growth?
Liliane Daou
Yeah, very good question. It is honestly one of the most challenging things because when you're building something, you're so excited, you want to see results the next day, you want to sell out and tell your friends, we're doing amazing. And the reality is things take time, especially in that space. You just need to be patient. And the way I handle it is a few things.
One I try to always stay very focused on the long-term vision like where do I want to get? Okay, maybe I don't love what's happening on a day to day or things are not progressing the way I want to etc. But then I'm like, okay, what's my long-term goal? That's the goal. That's what I need to focus on.
The second thing is I try not to compare myself to other brands that are way ahead of me and that's something like we all fall into that trap of looking around and being like, oh my God, like this happened with them. Like, why aren't we doing the same? And especially in the first phase or first few years where you're still building your identity. And so I try to just remind myself like, that's me. That's my timeline. And I try to look at other brands or companies for inspiration, for learning, but yeah, I try not to fall into that trap.
The third thing is try to do side gigs or have other jobs where you see momentum and you see growth and you have a source of income and you see money coming in. And I think this balance is very important because like your business, you're going to have weeks where you're doing amazing other weeks where it's slower. And these lower weeks could be demotivating and hard. But if you have another side gig that you still are seeing momentum there, you're still seeing cash coming in and you know, then you can balance that. And I think it's very healthy.
And I think the last thing is the support system. Again, I think I am so lucky that I'm doing this with my siblings. And so like whenever we want to see growth, we never, you know, we're in doubt or we just go back to each other and talk through together. We motivate each other. Even like sometimes we think about it like, even if a year from now we realized that this was such a bad idea, we failed, we need to close the business, we will never regret doing that because investing in that meant that we invested in memories together and we can never regret that. So I feel like having a partner, a co-founder helps so much because it's like a constant reminder that someone who's motivating you, who's in it with you. And also like someone you're sharing memories and learning and growing with which is like one of the best things, I think definitely it's hard and sometimes I wake up and I'm like I want this to happen by tomorrow. But then yeah, I take a step back and I'm like, okay, that's my long-term goal I should just look at my timeline. I pick up the phone and call my brother, you know, and we talk it through.
So there are a lot of things that you should do to keep your mindset positive. But yeah, it takes a lot of like practice and being in the now and like believing in yourself that if you have a dream and a goal, like it will just take time by why wouldn't it work if you're dedicated enough, you're adaptable enough, you can just read the market, the data and pivot, we started with handbags. If it doesn't work, then we can pivot into another product, you know, it doesn't work. We can put it into something else.
Glynis Tao
Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Liliane Daou
They can find me on Instagram. My handle is @liliane_daou. Also the handle of our brand, CAHAIA, is @cahaiaculture. If they want to visit the website, it's also cahaiaculture.com But yeah, mostly on Instagram, on LinkedIn, of course, Liliane Daou also.
Glynis Tao
If you’re listening and this conversation resonated with you, I highly recommend you to check out Liliane's work and follow her journey with CAHAIA. It's a beautiful example of what it looks like to build with both strategy and soul. Liliane, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your perspective.
Liliane Daou
Thank you so much. I had such a good time and it was so nice talking to you. Thank you.
Discover what it truly takes to build a meaningful, lasting brand beyond surface-level marketing. Robyn Young explains that strong brands are rooted in a clear point of view and a deep understanding of their audience’s mindset, not just demographics or aesthetics. She introduces the concept of a “brand universe,” where every touchpoint works together to create a cohesive and memorable experience, and emphasizes that differentiation comes from ideas, not just visuals. The conversation also highlights the dangers of chasing short-term growth and vanity metrics, encouraging founders to focus instead on long-term brand resilience, loyalty, and trust. Ultimately, the episode reinforces that successful brands are built with clarity, conviction, and the discipline to stay focused on a distinct vision, even when it means not appealing to everyone.
About Robyn Young
Robyn Young is a brand strategist, author, and founder of Young & Co., a strategy studio dedicated to helping independent brands move beyond surface-level marketing to build what she calls “brand universes”: layered, immersive brand identities that foster recognition, trust, and long-term loyalty. Over the past decade, she has launched or relaunched more than a hundred brands, working with companies across all stages of growth, from emerging category leaders to established businesses undergoing major reinvention. Robyn’s work centers on helping founders articulate a clear point of view, strengthen brand resilience, and create businesses designed for lasting relevance rather than short-term hype. She is also the author of Build Your Brand Universe, a number one Amazon hot new release, and a sought-after speaker on brand strategy, positioning, and standing out in competitive markets.
Build your brand around a clear point of view, not just a visually-polished aesthetic.
Don’t try to appeal to everyone since specificity is what makes a brand memorable in crowded markets.
Speak to your audience’s mindset and beliefs, not just their demographics.
Create a cohesive brand universe where every touchpoint reinforces the same core idea.
Avoid chasing vanity metrics and prioritize trust, loyalty, and word of mouth instead.
Use brand strategy as a compass to guide decisions even in the early stages.
Think long term and build for relevance rather than short term hype or quick wins.
Interview Themes
What is a brand and why does it matter?
A brand is not your logo, colors, or social media feed. It’s the perception people form when they interact with your business. While branding elements help shape that perception, the brand itself lives in the mind of your audience. This means founders must think beyond visuals and focus on the impression they want to leave behind.
Why shouldn’t brands rely on aesthetics to stand out?
A strong visual identity can attract attention, but it’s not enough to stay competitive against market competitors. Aesthetics are easy to replicate, making it difficult for brands to stand out long-term. To actually differentiate your business from others, focus on identifying a deep idea or point of view, with visuals serving as a reflection of that idea.
Why should founders focus on mindset instead of demographics?
Demographics tell you who your audience is on paper, but psychographics reveal how they think, what they value, and what they believe. Brands that connect on this deeper level with their audience are more likely to develop customer loyalty because they resonate with how people see themselves.
What is a “brand universe” and why does it matter?
A brand universe is a cohesive ecosystem where every touchpoint—content, messaging, visuals, partnerships—works together under one central idea. Instead of disjointed marketing efforts, everything reinforces the same core belief, creating a more immersive and recognizable experience for the audience.
What is “shallow growth” and why should you avoid it?
Shallow growth focuses on vanity metrics like follower count, quick wins, or viral moments that don’t translate into real loyalty. While these can create temporary spikes, they don’t build lasting brand equity. Sustainable brands prioritize trust, repeat customers, and word-of-mouth over short-term attention.
When should you start thinking about brand strategy?
Brand strategy isn’t just for later stages. It can act as a compass from the very beginning. Even if you’re still testing your product, having a clear direction helps guide decisions, align your messaging, and ensure consistency as you grow.
What does it take to build a brand people trust and return to?
It comes down to clarity and conviction. You need to clearly understand and articulate your point of view, and you need the conviction to stand by it over time. When your internal beliefs align with your external actions, you create a brand that feels authentic, consistent, and worth coming back to.
Transcript
Robyn Young
I think the key is really you cannot be for everyone. Like of all the things that I could say right now, I think that's the one that is the hardest for people to grasp. It's the one thing that I really hope that people can kind of get through their mind is that in the moment, when you start to lean into a psychographic mindset of a customer base that you want to attract, it can feel very uncomfortable because you know that you're dividing the room in a way. You're saying, okay, we're automatically not going to be for these people who relate to these things over here. But what it really does is if you can get past that discomfort, it opens up all of this potential for then how to treat your brand in a very distinct way that then makes it sticky, memorable, something that creates that loyalty that really speaks to people.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Today's guest is Robyn Young, a brand strategist, author, and founder of Young & Co., a strategy studio that helps independent brands move beyond surface level marketing and build what she calls brand universes. These are layered brand worlds that people recognize, trust, and return to over time. Over the past decade, Robyn has helped launch or relaunch more than a hundred brands. She has worked with companies at every stage of growth from emerging category leaders to neutral and very sharp to establish enterprises navigating major reinvention. Her work focuses on helping founders clarify their point of view, build brand resilience and create businesses designed for long-term relevance rather than short-term hype. She's also the author of the book, Build Your Brand Universe, which became a number one Amazon hot new release. In addition, she is a frequent speaker on brand strategy, positioning, and what it really takes to stand out in crowded markets.
In today's conversation, we talk about why aesthetic alone is not a strategy, how founders can avoid what Robyn calls shallow scale, and why understanding your audience's mindset, not just the demographics, is one of the most powerful ways to build a brand people genuinely connect with. If you're building a fashion, lifestyle or impact brand and want to create something that lasts, this episode will give you a lot to think about.
Robyn, welcome to the Chase Your Dreams podcast.
Robyn Young
Thank you.
Glynis Tao
I'm so excited to have this conversation with you because so many founders listening are working hard to build brands that actually mean something, not just brands that chase the next trend, and your work around brand universes and long-term brand resilience speaks directly to that. So to start us off, I'd love to go back to the beginning of your journey.
Robyn Young
Yeah. I'm like, where to begin? I mean, it's hard to compartmentalize. I've been working in different facets of branding and marketing for much longer than I've had Young & Co. My business, Young & Co., I've had it for 10 years now. It'll be 10 years in October. Prior to that, we had worked with companies like UCLA and their branding and marketing department. I had worked in digital media, I had worked in fashion, I had worked in traditional media, so I have a lot of breadth in the development of brands at different facets—everything from market research to marketing campaigns to actual identity development. And it really gave me a very well-rounded knowledge of how to do this, not only in different size companies, but in different categories. What I found, and I really only became interested in brand strategy at the beginning of my business because I had already worked in sort of the creative execution and the production of brands, but I really only became interested in, you know, what actually makes an identity at the beginning of my business. And since then, you know, the more I learn, the more I realize there's more to know, which is why I feel like what I wanted to bring to my book is this deeper understanding. I feel like a lot of brand strategy books, they're very high on theory and not very suitable to somebody who's just starting out, who doesn't really know the terminology or the structure of building a brand identity. So I wanted to create something that made sense for them. So at the very beginning, it was a lot of like figuring it out as I went.
I left my very cushy tech job to start this business while I was two months pregnant, by the way. Not an ideal time, by the way, to be starting a business. And I certainly wouldn't necessarily recommend that for people. Like, don't start the way that I did, which was no clients, no money, no idea how to get either of those. It creates a very stressful environment for you. But it worked out for me because within four years I was already making multiple six figures. And I think the part that really resonated for me in a way was that when we approached the brand, we didn't just see it as creating matching luggage. What I like to call matching luggage is just like a shallow aesthetic. We really tried to get into the depths of what makes this interesting? What is the bigger idea that sits at the center of this that makes it something that people would feel loyal to? And as I started to shape that out and more importantly, developed a framework for building that, that's when I, in the last year, that's when I, well, to be fair, 2024 is when I started writing the book and then Build Your Brand Universe launched in January 2025. So that's really when I started to refine and create some ownership and IP around that process. So it's been a wild ride, to say the least.
Glynis Tao
I'm sure it has. And your book is called Build Your Brand Universe. What does a brand universe actually mean? And how is that different from simply having a brand identity?
Robyn Young
That’s such a good question. I love this. So a brand identity, let's start there. So I think a lot of people conflate brand with the things that we use to try and drive what a brand actually is. Okay. So a brand is an impression or a perception that someone has when they're interacting with your business or you or your product, whatever you're selling, right? What is it? What's that gut feeling that they get? That's what your brand actually is. Okay, so brand is the noun. It is something that theoretically isn't in your control because it's what they think it is, not what you say it is. So branding is then everything that you use to drive that perception, like your visual identity, like your vocal identity, your content, your marketing message, all of that. That's branding because you're using it as a vehicle to help you drive that perception.
Now, your point of view, what I talk about as brand strategist, your point of view is the thing that makes it distinct and memorable and ownable. So it's a bigger story that sits at the center. Okay. Once you have those things, you have an understanding of those things, then you can start to think about building your own brand world. That is, it doesn't even necessarily need to be a physical world. I see lots of brands that are actually building a sort of tangible world in the platforms that they have online or through different touch points. But it's a distinct vibe that you get, not just because of an aesthetic, but because of a bigger point of view or idea that makes it sticky, that makes it memorable, that allows people to recognize it. So, that's what your brand universe is. It's not just stringing together touch points that don't have anything to do with one another. It's something that has a very clear and different center of gravity to it. And then everything that you create from that is in service of that. The idea behind a brand universe is it's like a connected brand ecosystem, wherein everything kind of feeds each other because it all has that center of gravity in common. Does that make sense?
Glynis Tao
Yes. Now, could you give us an example of say, maybe someone you've worked with or a brand who is doing it really well, who has built a brand universe?
Robyn Young
Yes, absolutely. Oh my gosh, there's so many to imagine. I mean, in every category, you probably have somebody that is playing really well into brands. So like if I'm taking the water category, Liquid Death has a brand world. They have a rich textured world with multiple touch points that all come back to the same personality and point of view, which is death to plastic. Liquid Death was smart in that they recognized early on that their product wasn't innately different. It was water. Water in a can. This company's worth a billion dollars now, like genius, right? What made it different is that rather than spending their marketing dollars talking about how metal was infinitely recyclable, they put all of their investment and time and energy into building a brand that was a representation of heavy metal. So that's the personality trait, like why it's relevant to where they're actually positioned. And then yes, they were able to catch some early waves that really cultivated that difference, such as, you know, the non-alcoholic movement made it really useful for them to then have their products within bars, let's say. But they leveraged a visual language and a vocal identity to then shape wherever they showed up at any touch point, it created something that people were engaged with, that they could recognize and that they could interact with. So that's what I mean when I say there's this ecosystem there, right? And I think too often when people are just thinking about the aesthetic or a surface level vibe, it's much easier to copy. It's much easier for somebody to come in and create something that feels very similar, and then it's not as sticky. It doesn't create that same kind of traction. So when you're too focused on joining a platform and you're too in the weeds on just getting the traction on just that platform, what that does is it waters down your own brand and your own personality, your own identity. So it doesn't allow you to create the kind of, you know, traction that you want for your own brand.
Glynis Tao
From your perspective, what separates the brands that become truly memorable from those that struggle to stand out?
Robyn Young
Good question. I think that first of all, you cannot be a brand for everyone. And I think that people are starting to understand that because we're hearing a lot of like, you need to know your niche and know your audience. I feel like this is language that in theory people have heard, but what's funny is when they go to actually establish a content strategy, their marketing strategy, their marketing message, what they put forward is what I call a platitude. So it's all dialed into what their product features and benefits are or what their tech stack is. It dials up on the product. There's no point of view there because the very nature of a point of view is that people have to disagree with it. There needs to be somebody who would disagree with it. If it's not something that people disagree with, it's not a point of view. So it's not really something that is ownable for you. It's not really something you build an identity around. So starting with something that speaks to not a demographic, but speaks to a mindset, a psychographic, that's where you can really lay the foundation that then leads to brand loyalty. It's the more that you are willing to sacrifice one audience in service of another. That's what creates something that's more memorable. And it's very hard to do. It's not easy because you have to be willing to accept that you're not going to be for everyone. And that's not an easy route, especially for a brand that's just starting out. Knowing that you're going to alienate some people is very hard to do in practice.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and speaking of just starting out, so many founders focus heavily on product development or marketing tactics early on. At which point should they start seriously about brand strategy?
Robyn Young
You know, that's a good question that has been asked so many times. And of course, the maddening answer I'm going to give is it depends. It depends because if you are, let's say, a solopreneur just starting out, you don't really know much about your audience, you don't really know much about your category, listen. A brand strategy is never going to be a bad thing to have because it aligns your ultimate goal with what you're saying in the moment, what you're trying to build in the moment. So you could see it as not exactly a plan. It's more of like a North star, a compass, right? So I find that even early on, it can be very helpful for figuring out what is in and out of bounds as you're laying that initial foundation for how your brand is showing up. Because here's the thing—you're never going to get a second chance at that first impression.
Now, that said, there's a lot to be said about getting an MVP, testing the market with your actual product and seeing if it's something that people even want. Learning the ropes a little bit, figuring out what's the cultural cadence when it comes to my world? Like what are people really interested in? Sometimes, those things just take time. They take time for you to understand. So I do think that there's something to be said about, you know, making sure that you have a solid business strategy first, because your business strategy and your brand strategy, they should align. So if you have no clue what your business is going to be, it makes it harder for you to then build a sound brand strategy. Even though your brand strategy is about the point of view beyond what you're selling, it should still align with what you're offering. You should see the offer as basically being like the punchline rather than the headline because if you go out there leading with, we've got a sustainable fashion brand, first of all, you're going to fall on deaf ears. There's nothing about that that gives you any competitive edge. But it's also just like you're only capturing somebody who might be looking for that specific thing at that time. The data tells us that's about 2% of the market in any category. People who are looking for what you're doing right now, it's 2 to 5%. So everybody that's product-first, you're squabbling over 2 to 5%. Rather than there's a fraction of the market that isn't looking right now, but they might be in the next 12 to 18 months or shorter.
So the name of the game is, how do you create an ecosystem in which you can engage these people until they're ready to buy from you? So it's that same idea of staying top of mind, but rather than trying to do it by constantly demanding their attention, which as we know, gets very noisy, it's instead creating these thoughtful platforms and touch points that double down on that point of view so that that way they can engage with you and then eventually buy from you. Or in some cases, it might be referring people to you. It just sort of changes the way in which we think about shaping that part, if that makes sense.
Glynis Tao
And so I think this moves us into the conversation about why aesthetic isn't a strategy. One of the ideas you talk about is that vibes and brand aesthetic are not the same thing as strategy. I think this is something a lot of founders struggle with, especially in fashion and lifestyle, where visual identity is so important. Can you explain what you mean by that?
Robyn Young
Yes. And listen, I spent many years as a fashion stylist. In fact, when I first moved to LA, that's where I started. I wanted to be a stylist and I worked within the commercial and editorial space and nobody loves a great aesthetic vibe like me. But that said, it's not going to give you a competitive edge. So it's not quite as simple as just, we need an original aesthetic or we need a vibe. That's all well and fine, but then somebody else could come in and mimic that and there's really nothing to say they're going to choose you versus this person. You're always going to get into that same trap. There's really no room for you to have conviction into something deeper. Plus, I think that the consumer base is becoming much more savvy. They care about more than just a vibe, right? That doesn't mean don't have a strong aesthetic. You're in fashion, of course, like this is something that's going to be pertinent, but the key is to establish what makes you interesting, what makes you different and then let the aesthetic be led by that. So it's kind of flipping it on its head. Whereas it used to be emphasized to create the visual identity and let the consumer base decide or tell you who you are in relation to other brands. Now that's just not, it's not sort of building strategically anymore. Instead, figure out what the category needs not just at a product or functional level, but figure out at an emotional level, at a highest order benefit level and then build your brand around that everything from the vibe that aesthetic the visual identity the name, you know. I mean down to your retail environment and you know your packaging. All of that should be in service of what is that impression that we want to give? What is that, you know, bigger reputation we want to build? So if you're thinking long term, if you want to build something that actually creates that loyalty, you have to be zooming out, see the bigger picture, not just be thinking about, how do I survive today?
Glynis Tao
I think what you're saying is to look deeper beyond surface level. Why do you think so many early stage brands rely heavily on the aesthetic instead of developing a clear brand point of view?
Robyn Young
Because this isn't information that is widely communicated, to be honest. It's funny because corporations, the Fortune 100 companies that I've worked with, they know this. They know this and they use this widely, right? But at an entrepreneurial level, a brand point of view is not a tangible thing. So everybody starts a company knowing you know, I need a logo, I need a website. Like, these are tangible assets that we know we need. And I think sometimes people, founders especially, can think, I have a clear idea of what my point of view is, and that might be true. In some cases, I work with founders and they do have a clear point of view, but the problem is that it isn't being articulated. It's either not being articulated in their message, it's not being articulated in their content, in their ads, in their website. So just having a point of view is only one side of the coin.
The other side of the coin is how well you amplify it so that it actually drives that perception. That's the hard part about brand is like, it's a complicated game of telephone. I have something I want to say. Starting at place A is you need to have something to say. You'd be surprised how many founders just want to create a business just to line their pockets and listen, like, I get it, but that's never going to motivate anybody but you. Not going to motivate your team, not going to motivate your customers, not going to create any kind of loyalty. So the idea is creating something interesting to say and then saying it, but saying it with your whole chest with everything that you do. That's the game.
Glynis Tao
All of it is ingrained in everything that you go beyond all the visual aesthetics. I mean, can you give us an example of apparel brands, a fashion brand that is doing really well? I'm sure the ones who have been around a long time, right?
Robyn Young
Yes.
Glynis Tao
Does it necessarily need to be? Those legacy brands?
Robyn Young
Yes and no. It doesn't necessarily need to be. I'm going to give you three examples because I want to show how this works regardless of vibe, the aesthetic, right? So probably the most familiar, Patagonia. Like, listen, I don't personally own anything Patagonia, but I could tell you everything about this brand. So it started very naturally, very organically, and the founder has such a compelling story about actually building within this climbing world. I think that that naturally lends itself to what was most important to Patagonia, but the point is it started as something that was such a small need, but a very established point of view about the world. So not just fashion, but about the world and what we should be focused on. And now today, many, many, many years later, they still put that at the forefront of decisions that they make, not just at a marketing level, not just at an aesthetic level, but at a business level. That's phenomenal. It's probably one of the best examples. Obviously, they have this social impact component to their point of view, but I think what's important is for people to understand you don't necessarily have to be a social impact brand in order to have a strong brand point of view.
So the other one that I use today in a talk that I gave is Jacquemus. Are you familiar with Jacquemus, that fashion brand? very, it's a very French name, but it's spelt like J-A-C-Q-U-E-M-U-S.
Glynis Tao
Okay, I think I've seen this around.
Robyn Young
Yep. It's Jacquemus.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I thought it was Jackamoose or something. I wasn't seeing it. I was totally saying it wrong.
Robyn Young
I had been saying it wrong for but they only recently sort of appeared on my radar. And I found what was so interesting about this brand is they've captured this sort of almost ironic point of view about luxury fashion as a luxury brand. So a lot of times they're poking fun at luxury and the tropes of luxury fashion as a luxury fashion brand, which is kind of amazing when you think about it. And that whimsical dreamlike kind of aesthetic really lends itself to that point of view. So this is a brand where it's worked for them to have that different perspective. They've brought an element of humor and irony to a category that if you think about it, was relatively stuffy—a little too into itself. And what's interesting about that is it opened it up to engage with people who may not otherwise have cared much about luxury fashion.
So, we're now talking about a brand that leveraged that same point of view and baked it into even their events, their PR stunts. I'm sure you saw this, I talked about it today. It was an AI-generated video, these big purses driving through Paris. I don't know if you're on TikTok much, but in 2023, this was like a funny video that they released that, yeah, of course people knew this can't be real, but it went absolutely nutty viral—like 2 million views on TikTok. So what was interesting about this brand is that they actually created real reproductions of these huge bags and drove them through the streets of Paris as a PR stunt. Again, it’s a personality, but again, it's not just about a personality—it's a personality with some meaning behind it. It's capturing what is lacking within the category and it has nothing to do with social impact. So you can have a point of view that is still very distinctly you that gives you that competitive edge and then use your aesthetics, your content, your marketing, your stunts to be in service of that. Right. So that's another example.
And the one that I see that is somewhat emerging that I've been keeping my eye on is Late Checkout. Are you familiar with Late Checkout?
Glynis Tao
No.
Robyn Young
Okay, I'm fascinated obviously with this category having worked six years in fashion. So I always like to kind of keep my finger on the pulse of like, who's doing what. Late Checkout was created by these para founders who would travel around the world, but they always kind of felt a little like they had just missed the mark. So when they were staying at hotels, it was like they were always just a bit late for the breakfast buffet or just a little far behind in the happy hour. What they saw in that was this crossover between the mindset of somebody who feels like they're running on their own time. So what I like about that is that's a great representation noticing a mindset of a customer base and then shaping your brand around that. So in the very name, Late Checkout, they're speaking to this audience that does take a more relaxed approach to things. And they have, again, an aesthetic that lends itself to that. So they aren't led by trends really. I mean, they have their own sort of visual language and honestly, talk about a brand world, when you go to their site, you'll actually see that their collections are named after characters. Within the site itself, the way that the tone reads is as if you are visiting a hotel and the hotel is very uniquely their hotel. So they're using a story to create something that feels different than just your standard e-commerce shop.
So it's a perfect representation of like, how do you create something that feels distinct, that's enjoyable for somebody to engage with, that actually makes them feel like I'm entering into a world rather than just I'm visiting their site, right? And I will tell you, they are technologically savvy about their site. They're really using very, you know, simple things to do this. I mean, you'd be surprised how much just a great tone of voice of your copy and some original photography and the idea of, you know, using this hotel reference can go such a long way. That's what I love about them as a brand. You know, we're not talking about a brand that has billions of dollars to spend because yeah, I have very different expectations from a brand like that. We're talking about a brand that hasn't been around that long in comparison and is still utilizing this strategy. It's fascinating to me. Yes, yes, Late Checkout. I think now that I've mentioned it to you, you're going to start seeing them because they do a lot of brand collaborations too, which I think is very smart. Again, when you have an emerging brand, who you partner with, other brands that you partner with, other influencers you partner with, that should also be in service of what you want to drive this brand point of like a filter and a lens in which you can look at everything with your business and determine what are the things that we say yes to that are going to be in service of that bigger vision that we have and what are the things that, equally important, we say no to, even if they feel like great opportunities, if they're off-brand long-term, they're probably doing more damage than they are good.
Glynis Tao
So let's talk about building brand resilience versus chasing growth. Today, there's so much pressure on founders to grow quickly, scale fast, raise funding, go viral. How do you help brands focus on long-term resilience instead of short-term growth tactics?
Robyn Young
That’s such a good one. So first of all, in the way that we approach brands, it's not tactic focused—it's not formulaic. And that often does mean that you can have short-term you're keeping your eye on the long-term prize. So while I'm not here to criticize anyone for seeking out funding, you got to do what you got to do.
What I'm noticing is that in this time where money is expensive, there isn't as much funding going around, especially in the last couple of years, that's been true. Especially if you're not in an AI related field, that's very true too. What I'm noticing is that there is this group of fiercely independent brands that are finding ways to bootstrap, to raise friends and family money, to generate sales and revenue on their own, to grow slower rather than just focus on that unicorn scale. And I think that it's very, I think it's very astute because what you do is you maintain ownership, which means that you have the opportunity to really say yes and no. Because the moment that you start giving ownership away, you start losing that a lot of times, VCs aren't as… not all VCs, obviously. You can find some that understand the vision and what you're trying to accomplish, and maybe they buy into that. That's true for angel investors too. So it's not everyone, but a lot of times they're going to cut the magic. They're going to cut all the things that don't serve the bottom line, right? But that's not what creates a great brand. And if you ask anybody who has created a great brand, they will tell you the same thing, that you can't always be led by just services and the profit margin. So I think that how we approach brand building in general is how do we shape and let the point of view that we're trying to build the impression, that perception, around the brand? How do we let that be the filter and the lens that leads these decisions? And it's not just at a marketing level, it's at a product level, it's at a service level. It's within your own culture if you have a team. It could even be within the behaviors and actions of how the business gets represented, let's say within a pitch. Even if you're having a call with VCs or with angel investors, you want to bring that perspective to that conversation because that's something you want to make sure that they're on board with, that they get, they understand.
So we really prepare our clients to make those decisions and start acting in a way that helps them to keep that at the forefront because it is so noisy out there. It's so easy to become distracted by things like algorithms and somebody's best kept secret formula, their proven frameworks, whatever. The virality of these approaches is really creating an environment in which people are only concerned with the short term, and unfortunately, that's become what I like to call the shallow part of the pool. It is the most busy space. So it's also the most expensive space for you to try and stand out in. Whereas if you take that time to do the deep work and you make your investment of your time, of your resources in service of that very specific, clear cut message and perception you want to drive, you naturally remove things from the table that don't make sense for that. So it can actually be a great efficiency tool if you know how to use it.
Glynis Tao
You talk about helping brands resist shallow growth. What does shallow growth look like in practice and why do so many brands fall into that trap?
Robyn Young
I think the most common trap I see is follower like, listen, the jig is up. You can buy followers. Does that mean that you have any more loyalty than you started with? No, it doesn't. Right. I think that, again, people I think are starting to wake up to that, but innately they still tend to think in terms of vanity metrics, right? What I tend to be more focused on is not just a single sale. I mean, good, like it's great. You need those initial sales. You need a trial, right? But you haven't really gained loyalty until you get to the point where somebody trusts you, trusts your brand enough to start referring to it. That word of mouth that happens organically, that's when you've really started to build that brand equity. So if you make that part of the metrics that you use, it will serve you a lot better than those vanity metrics will. And again, I think for people who are really just looking for that easy funding opportunity because they secretly want to just be acquired and exit. They're not going to take the time to do this. But for that fiercely independent founder who I know is out there listening to this, the person who genuinely wants this to be part of their legacy, who wants to create something genuinely special that reaches out and touches their audience and creates that kind of loyalty. That's what this track is for. That's who I'm for. That's who I want to build alongside. And I mean, it's great working with those kinds of founders because they get it. They just understand. They're not working with this ridiculous timeline and letting things that ultimately just look like shallow growth that are just those vanity metrics. They're not letting that lead them. And frankly, as we start to see more content, more businesses, more brands in every category because the good part about AI is it's never been easier to start a brand. The hard part about AI is also it's never been easier to start a brand. So it's also that much harder, that much noisier. It's only going to get worse. So this isn't about becoming more noisy. It's not about trying to capture more attention. It is about becoming much more strategic, much more focused, much more honed in on exactly who your audience is and how do you offer something to them? Again, not at a product level, at an emotional level, at a highest order benefit level. How do you offer something to them that they can't get from their other competitors? That's the real question you should be asking.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and so what I'm getting from this conversation and what you're saying is like, I think this is like the foundational work, the deep work that is needed in order upon. And so if you're not clear on the audience, your unique differentiator point of view, then if you try to grow and get funding and like you being influenced by all these different people that have their own say perspective, then you're going to be easily swayed. That in return could derail you from what your original goal was when you started this brand. And that's kind of how friends can start like they've lost their compass, right? What they set out to do from the original founder and I kind of see this happening with Lululemon right now.
Robyn Young
Yes. I think that we tend to romanticize these well-known CEOs, brand builders as being so visionary, and what's so funny is that I don't love that because it makes it seem like they're superhuman in a way. I promise you all that they really have is a very clear idea—a very clear vision for exactly what that point of view is, what shapes those decisions, what makes that different, what is that competitive edge that they have? And then they have discipline in spades. I mean, they just have the discipline to say no to things that aren't in service of that. That's really all it is. The good news is you can hack that. You can do that. You can be the same as these people, but you have to take the time to do that deep thinking.
My book is very much a guide in starting to think in that direction. And I find that, especially for a founder who already thinks they have an idea of what their point of view might be, that might be the single piece that they need to just bring it the rest of the way so that they can articulate it well. But I launched an accelerator this past year because what I found was people that were reading the book were like, I don't know if I have it or not, because again, it's not this tangible piece.
Your point of view is strongest when you have clarity and conviction. So clarity means you can, not only can you speak to it well, but you can recognize it when other people are talking about your point of view out in the world. And you know how to leverage it to join in on that conversation. Those are sort of the key metrics we use for do you have clarity on it? On the conviction side, that is much more personal. It is really like, is this the hill you want to die on? Is this the thing that you would spend years talking about? Is this the thing that you feel you are uniquely capable to say? So it's a combination of those two things really. It's just, mostly it's just aligning your insides with your outsides, right? It's aligning like, what do you care most about whether it's at a category level or at a worldview level? And how do you align your business's actions and behaviors with those values, right? I don't think there's any reason that anybody couldn't do this, but some people just need more help and guidance. And that's the role that I love to play. I'm like the Sherpa. We are going to climb this mountain together.You're going to climb it with me though. I'm not climbing it on your behalf because that would be a lack of conviction. Like if you can't even climb the mountain with me, then you don't get to say it's your mountain. You feel me? It's not your climb unless you're there climbing it with me. But the thing is, I'm there because I'm like, I've got the tools. I've done this a million times. I've got the, you know, the wherewithal. I've already been at these different levels without that oxygen, so I know what that takes. I know how to keep you moving in that right direction. But for everybody, the path is a little different. So it needs that heavy customization. And frankly, I find that work so exciting. It lights me up inside. But for founders, it can feel a little bit like therapy.
Glynis Tao
Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. I know because building a brand identity can be tough and could change. So it's really hard to kind of stick with one. I think a lot of people have a tough time trying to just to choose one or like, do they have to necessarily, you know, choose one and stick with that one or can it change?
Robyn Young
Yeah. Great question. So one of the things that I do, let's say in the initial conversation that I have with a client, first of all, I will start by getting some insight into their world. Part one, it's just figuring out who are the players, how are they positioning themselves, what's going on within the space, what are the customers saying, what's the chatter happening? So I get that context. And then I'll start to shape some initial territories, which is what I call them. And this is always a question that comes up, like, what do I think is the most likely one to be successful? And I always laugh a little bit because I'm like, the one that's going to be successful is the one you're most willing to fight for. That's the honest truth because every single one of these ideas can be strong—can be successful. But the X factor there is your willingness to have the discipline to see it through. And that is so much harder. There's no formula for that. There's no tactics for that. It is just your willingness as the founder to keep pushing in that direction and to keep kind of flipping it over and turning it over until it finally snaps, right? Until it finally all clicks.
I find that though being a partner with founders who are on that journey, it's important to have somebody who helps you not get distracted or not see that shiny object and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, if we're going to go in that direction, it needs to fit this. How does it fit this? And if it doesn't fit this, is it that this needs to change because sometimes that's the case. You could be a brand that has a really strong positioning for a while. Olipop is a perfect example of that. They had a strong brand positioning for a very long time, but then Poppi came in with a different kind of positioning and completely killed the market. Olipop's still in the game, but I think they tried too hard to ride the wave of just being this sort of probiotic option within a world, a category that was all about chemical-based ingredients. And it didn't work for as long as they thought it might. And what they really needed to do was recognize that they needed to continue to evolve that positioning, that it wasn't always going to be exactly this. So it's not quite as simple as you create it once and then set it and forget it. You kind of have to be a steward for your brand permanently.
Glynis Tao
Wow, I could keep going. This has been such a thoughtful conversation about what it really takes to build a brand that people return to and advocate for over time. But before we wrap up, I'd love to ask you one final question. If someone listening wants to build a brand people truly recognize, trust and return to, what is the one principle you hope they remember from this conversation?
Robyn Young
I think the key is really you cannot be for everyone. Like of all the things that I could say right now, I think that's the one that is the hardest for people to grasp. It's the one thing that I really hope that people can kind of get through their mind is that in the moment, the moment when you start to lean into a psychographic mindset of a customer base that you want to attract, it can feel very uncomfortable because you know that you're dividing the room in a way. You're saying, okay, we're automatically not going to be for these people who relate to these things over here. But what it really does is if you can get past that discomfort, it opens up all of this potential for then how to treat your brand in a very distinct way that then makes it sticky, memorable, something that creates that loyalty that really speaks to people. Because I think what you kind of have to imagine is right now in pretty much every category, there's more room for you to find what's not already being served there. Again, not at a functional level, but at an emotional level, just like Liquid Death. Nobody was asking for another water brand. Nobody asked. If you asked 20 people, do we need another water brand? They would have said, no. For what purpose? But they recognized that within the category, there was just so much same-same. There were so many brands that were just playing right into the same audience that opening it up to a new mindset, a new audience is what made that opportunity killer, right? And now they've found additional categories to really lean into in that same spirit. And it's something that of course still takes some trial, but if you start out that strong and that strategic, I mean, it just creates the environment in which you can thrive and you can really call the shots and it's not about, you know, this platform is better than that platform. You are the platform and your social channels are just distribution channels for you. That's the goal. It just takes time.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Robyn Young
Yes. My site is the best place to get in touch if you are wanting to work with me. If you are somebody who is interested in doing this inside of an accelerator. If you're like, I need to develop my brand point of view, I need to understand my identity deeper than just that shallow aesthetic, I need to understand what really makes me unique, I would recommend my accelerator. So I run this four times per year. My next cohort will be May 1st. You have to apply for it. That said, I accept 10 founders per quarter. So I highly recommend anyone that's interested in going to that link. It's thisisyoung.co/accelerator. And if you're somebody who's like, I'm genuinely interested in this, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger just yet, I totally get it. I would say my book is a fantastic place to start. I've had people write in telling me they've already read it two, three times which is phenomenal to me because it means that this is a point of view that people just haven't really seen out there. It's just, it's not information that we've really seen or that's been available. that can, you can find the links to purchase the book at thisisyoung.co/book.
Glynis Tao
That book is calledBuild Your Brand Universe?
Robyn Young
Yes, it's also available on Amazon too, so if you want to search for it, yeah. Great.
Glynis Tao
And you're on social, obviously.
Robyn Young
Of course, yes. I'm @robynyoung.co. The channels I'm most active on are TikTok and Instagram. And then I also have a Substack. If you go to my website, you can actually find the link to join the Substack. It's called Yes and Newsletter. I write on it twice per month and I always include insights, inspiration and ideas for brands that want to take that very innovative approach and build their own brand ecosystem. So really useful free guides there for you if you want to know more about this.
Glynis Tao
Love it. Robyn, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your perspective on what it really takes to build a brand with depth and staying power.
