Building a Luxury Brand Through Culture, Storytelling, and Strategy

by Glynis Tao | Apr 7, 2026 | Podcast

Liliane Daou shares how she moved from consulting to building CAHAIA, a culture house that designs wearable accessories and objects with the intention of spotlighting different cultures. CAHAIA was created through a series of intentional steps grounded in skill-building, financial planning, and long-term vision rather than a leap of faith. Liliane emphasizes how her strategy background informs her approach to business, and how that execution and iteration matter more than ideas alone. The conversation also challenges common myths around the luxury industry, revealing that building a meaningful brand is a slow process rooted in storytelling, trust, and world-building before sales. This episode encourages founders to think long-term, embrace uncertainty with structure, and build sustainably by combining creativity with strategic discipline.

About Liliane Daou

Liliane Daou is a former BCG consultant, cultural storyteller, and founder of CAHAIA, a culture house that transforms the identity of cities into design objects, beginning with handbags crafted from vinyl records. After six years advising global media, technology, and consumer companies, she stepped away from a structured consulting career to pursue a more creative and purpose-driven path at the intersection of strategy, culture, and design. Today, Liliane continues to work as an independent strategy consultant, partnering with leading organizations including The Business of Fashion, while building CAHAIA as a long-term luxury brand rooted in cultural narrative rather than scale. Her work is defined by a rare ability to bridge high-level business strategy with deeply intentional storytelling, helping reimagine how brands can create meaning, relevance, and lasting cultural impact.

Contact Info

Website: http://www.cahaiaculture.com 

Instagram: @cahaiaculture, @liliane_daou

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/Liliane-daou-9b7040b0

Takeaways

• Start small and intentionally to strengthen your brand positioning early on.
• Stay anchored in a long-term vision while detaching from short-term fluctuations and comparisons.
• Surround yourself with a strong support system—entrepreneurship is easier to sustain when shared with people who challenge and encourage you. 
• To minimize risk when transitioning to entrepreneurship, build financial buffers, test the market, and create fallbacks.
• Focus on execution and iteration over perfect ideas.
• Build luxury (or any meaningful brand) through storytelling and world-building before focusing on sales or scale.
• Prioritize awareness and cultural relevance in the early stages as trust and desire take time to develop.

Interview Themes

What does it actually take to build a luxury or meaningful brand?

Building a strong brand requires more than a product—it requires world-building. Storytelling, cultural relevance, and a clear narrative create desire and emotional connection, which must come before focusing on scaling or driving sales.

Why should you start small when building a brand?

Starting small allows you to test your idea, refine your product, and build intentional brand positioning without overcommitting resources. Limited production not only reduces risk but can also create scarcity, which strengthens perceived value—especially in premium or luxury markets.

How should founders think about risk when transitioning to entrepreneurship?

Risk shouldn’t be seen as a leap, but something to manage strategically. By building financial buffers, testing the market, and creating fallback options, founders can make more confident decisions while maintaining flexibility if things don’t go as planned.

Why should early-stage brands prioritize awareness over sales?

In the beginning, people need a reason to care before they’re ready to buy. Focusing on awareness and cultural relevance helps build trust and familiarity, which are essential for long-term conversion and brand loyalty.

How can founders stay grounded while building something long-term?

Staying anchored in a long-term vision helps navigate the inevitable ups and downs of entrepreneurship. Detaching from short-term results and avoiding constant comparison allows founders to focus on their own path and pace.

Why is having a support system so important in entrepreneurship?

Building a business can be emotionally and mentally demanding. Having people who challenge, support, and share the journey with you provides stability, perspective, and motivation—making the process more sustainable over time.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Liliane Daou and Her Journey

03:54 Transitioning from Consulting to Entrepreneurship

10:08 Leveraging Consulting Skills in Building CAHAIA

12:13 The Evolution of CAHAIA: From Handbags to Cultural Storytelling

19:24 The Reality of Building a Luxury Brand

24:35 Manufacturing Challenges and Processes

29:07 Defining Culture and Its Role in CAHAIA

31:28 Balancing Patience and Ambition in Entrepreneurship

Transcript

Liliane Daou

I think the biggest thing for us is mindset launching. I think we launched and thinking we need to convert, we need to sell. But then now, with time, we realize that there is a big part in the beginning stages of a brand that is trying to position itself in premium or luxury. There's a big part of world building, creating that desire, creating this culture and relevance.

The storytelling, which I don't think we're perfect at it in any way or another. We're still learning, but just having this mindset that we should focus on sales, world building and awareness and this traffic is as important and it should potentially, in the first initial stages, the first year be the main focus of the brand versus trying to sell.

Glynis Tao

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

Today's guest is Liliane Daou, a former BCG consultant turned founder and cultural storyteller who is redefining what it means to build a brand at the intersection of strategy, culture, and design. After spending six years advising global media, tech, and consumer companies, Liliane made the decision to step away from a prestigious and structured career to pursue a more creative and purpose-driven path.

She is now the founder of CAHAIA Culture House that translates the identity of cities into design objects, starting with handbags made from vinyl records. Alongside building CAHAIA, Liliane continues to work as an independent strategy consultant, advising leading companies, including the business of fashion. What makes her perspective especially unique is her ability to bridge two worlds that don't often intersect, high level business strategy and deeply intentional cultural storytelling. In today's conversation, we are going beyond the highlight reel. We're talking about what it really feels like to leave stability behind, how to think long-term when building a luxury brand without scale, and how to use your existing skills to create a more sustainable path into entrepreneurship. 

If you've ever felt pulled in a different direction, but weren't sure how to navigate the uncertainty, this episode is going to give you both the mindset and the strategy to think differently about your next move. Welcome, Liliane. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Liliane Daou

Thank you so much. What a nice introduction. I'm honored really. Thank you so much. Everything is spot on.

Glynis Tao

Well you have such an interesting story and I'm so happy to share it.

Liliane Daou

Thank you. And yeah, we're going to dive into so many different topics. So I'm excited to share it with your audience.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, absolutely. Liliane, I'm really excited for this conversation because your journey sits at such an interesting intersection of strategy and creativity. You started in a world that's very structured, very analytical, advising global companies at BCG, which is one of the world's top strategy consulting firms. And now you're building something that's deeply rooted in culture and storytelling. I’d love to start at the beginning of that transition. Can you take us back to the moment you realized you wanted something different from your career and what that actually felt like?

Liliane Daou

Yeah. And at the base, I also studied electrical engineering, which is very different from what I'm doing now. It's interesting because I always knew that the career path I took right after college, which is working in one of the biggest management consulting firms such as BCG, was not really what I wanted to do long term. I knew that I was taking this path as a step towards a longer term goal or dream that I have. And I knew that I needed it. I needed the skills, the expertise. I needed the confidence. It was going to give me credibility. Now that I'm building a business, I feel so much more confident or capable and more credible to go and pitch it to investors if I ever need that. So it wasn't really that I woke up one day and I realized I want to completely switch. I kind of knew from the beginning that I had to do this because it will arm me to be able to build whatever I want to build later on. And creativity has always been something I enjoyed doing. I never really pursued it. I always liked writing. I published a book very early in my life. I have a travel blog. So I've always kind of had it in my career. I think very recently I decided that I want to make it much more bigger than just a hobby. And why not try to pursue it and make it my career eventually? Sometimes in life you just have to do things that on a day to day are not really what you want to do, but they arm you for your future self. And that was me, I would say, with the career that I took until now.

Glynis Tao

Walking away from a prestigious stable career is something a lot of people dream about but don't actually do. What did that transition really feel like behind the scenes?

Liliane Daou

Definitely not very easy. I think mentally I was very prepared and ready for it. I knew that this day would come, this transition would come. I think it was harder emotionally or psychologically because the career that I had was very demanding. It was kind of all my life. I would spend very long hours in the office with a specific set of people, traveling all the time. So I really had a specific lifestyle and walking away from it felt like an identity shift. It's not that I'm losing a job. I'm losing my routine and the people that I was surrounded with, the lifestyle it gave me. So I think this was harder. But I think I was ready for it. I knew that I was planning for it over the years. And honestly, I'm still very pragmatic now. It's not that I walked away from corporate and I'm never going to do corporate. As you mentioned in the intro, I'm still freelancing now as an independent consultant. I also believe that I might need a full-time corporate job at some point because building a business, in my industry, which is like culture, fashion, luxury, takes a lot of time. It takes a minimum three to five years until you see the fruits of it. And so the reality is like, I am going to need another job. And there is also so much still to learn from corporate, I believe. 

But I think the role that corporate plays in my life has kind of changed. Initially, it was my life. That's what I spent my time doing, always working. It was a very demanding job. And now the way I see it is, OK, I want to build my business. Being realistic, how can I use corporate to help me do that? Is the job that I can get that gives me the flexibility time-wise that also positions me in an industry or next to people or topics that will help me with my business and my brand versus doing something that's like, completely different. So just changing the role that corporate would play in my life is a shift that I had. But yeah, I think any change that happened in your life is hard, but change is also good. So like sometimes you just have to like make the decision and like proceed, you know?

Glynis Tao

So was your decision to leave more of a leap or series of calculated steps? And how did you think through risk at that time?

Liliane Daou

Yeah, definitely not a leap. I'm very much a planner. I have like a plan A, B, C, D that I always return to. And so like, yeah, I think like I looked at it from a different perspective, like from a career perspective, did I achieve all the milestones I wanted to achieve with my previous career? Like, did I get the promotion or the title I wanted? Did I work in the country that I wanted? Because I moved from Dubai to New York. Did I get the degree or did my company also support me in my MBA? So did I hit all these milestones before leaving? So this was one thing. 

The other thing is I also took some time off before leaving to just test the market and have conversations with people in the industry I wanted to build my business in or potentially find a part-time job and see what's my value in the market? Would it be easy for me to find something that sustains me while I build my business? I did that to kind of be more sure of my decision. Also like financially, I made sure I have savings that can help me sustain myself without a source of income for a certain period of time. I live in New York. It's like one of the most expensive places. So these things, and I think also having a support system is very important. And for me, I'm lucky like, I'm building my business with my siblings. We're four kids. We're all partners in the business. All very close, very supportive of each other, and just having them being supportive of the decision that I'm taking and literally being like, Liliane, leave and fail and we will pick you up. This helps so much. So yeah, I think the way I thought about risk was, OK, I had an amazing career. I looked at the market, and I feel like I can find something else. I have some buffer and I have the support, like, let's do it. What's the worst case? I go back to BCG, you know? a lot about rationalizing in your brain, taking these small steps, but also having the people around you that support you in this decision and are always there to like with you when you're in moments of doubt.

Glynis Tao

How have your strategy and consulting skills shaped the way that you're building CAHAIA today?

Liliane Daou

Yeah, I think consulting or like the path I had really helped me from like a business perspective. It taught me all the foundations of a business. I think being a founder, it's very important, especially in the creative world, like it is important to have the creative aspect, but it's as important and even more important to know how to run a business eventually. Like you want the money, want the sales. And so like I got all these foundations from my career, like how to build a strategy, how to put a plan, to analyze numbers, and how do I price my products, how do I sell? All of these foundations, I'm very grateful that I got them from being a consultant. It also, I think, taught me discipline and being able to adapt quickly. Because when I worked in my previous job, it was very demanding. You had to be online 24-7. One day, you're working on something, the next day the client wants something else. So you need to adapt and pivot quickly. And I think these are also very important when you're building your own thing. But I do think there's a big aspect that I did not learn. And it was a big gap for me, which is execution. And yes, in consulting, we put things on paper. We give it to our clients. And then they have to execute. So we leave then. But in entrepreneurship, execution is everything. If you have something on paper, it means nothing until you do it, you fail, you realize that you have to change. And I think that's one skill that I had to teach myself and push myself to be okay with just doing things. And even if it's not like the accurate thing to do now, just like trying this thing and learning from what we see or like the data, what the data is sending us. So, it definitely helped me a lot, but there are certain things that I wish I had more exposure to.

Glynis Tao

CAHAIA is positioned as a culture house that translates cities into wearables and objects, blending fashion, music and travel. How did that concept first take shape for you? And how has it evolved from starting with vinyl record handbags into a broader creative vision?

Liliane Daou

This is a very long story. I think our vision and our journey has evolved so much over the launch four months ago, so we're still very, very, very new. I don't want to speak as an expert on anything. I'm sharing what has happened with us. People see the product, but they don't see that we've been thinking about it, working for years around that concept. At the base, just quickly, our story is we are originally Lebanese. We grew up in Lebanon, which is a very small, beautiful country in the Middle East. But growing up, my parents would always send us to cultural exchange programs. Since we were 10 years old, they would send us alone, me and my siblings, to travel and talk about our culture, but also learn other people's cultures. And it was just so embedded in how we grew up. From a very young age, friends from all over the world visited us, et cetera. So the culture piece and travel piece was ingrained in us. And particularly for me, at the age of 22, I lived on a ship for four months. traveled around 11 countries in these four months. And I saw so much of the world at a very young age, which kind of accentuated our love for culture and travel. And we've always wanted to work in that space.

But the way our idea came about, honestly, we've always tried to think about different things we can do and wanted to share what we had experienced with people. We felt very privileged that we saw so much of the world from a very young age, and we wanted other people to see what we saw, especially in today's world where there's so much instability and wars, even in my country. And sometimes countries are reduced to a very negative headline. There's so much more than that in a city. There's so much beauty and traditions and depth. And that's what we want to shed light on. But so honestly, over the years, we never had an idea that really clicked. We would pitch ideas. We would think about stuff. And so at some point, we just took a step back and we were like, maybe we shouldn't do this or pursue culture and travel. Until one day, a few years back, my brother, my twin brother actually he comes to us and he just pitched this idea of vinyl handbags. And at the time, I had just moved to New York and I started getting so much into fashion. I've always loved fashion, but New York had kind of expanded my style and taste and I started appreciating statement pieces. And so when he pitched this idea to us, we were like, my God, interesting. Like, okay, vinyl handbags. He also has a lot of vinyls at home. So we decided to produce one prototype and for me to walk around New York with that bag. And so like I did that for a few months and in three months we were able to kind of get almost 100 followers on CAHAIA's Instagram with no photos, no website, nothing. It was just me walking around New York and people stopping me and asking me, your bag is so cool. Like, where is it from? And so we just tell people like, follow us on Instagram. We're launching soon, you know? And that's when we realized like, okay, this could be a business idea.

It started really as a fashion piece. And when we started producing our handbags, at some point we got a legal hiccup. We realized that we can't choose any kind of discs. If they have the names of the artists, we might get into copyright issues and stuff like that. And so really, midway through us doing all of this, we had to take a decision. Do we drop the idea or do we recreate the vinyl and recreate the label? And that's when we decided let's recreate it, but everything clicked. We were like, my god, because now we can recreate the vinyl, can write about the music scene in cities. We can use that object or product to tell the stories of cultures and sounds in cities. And it's not anymore about the handbag, but the meaning behind it. And so that's how it evolved into becoming very cultural.

Again, over the years now, we're like, OK, we don't need to stick to handbags. We need to do more objects or maybe spaces. But at its core, everything needs to translate cities and cultures, whether it's a fashion piece or an object. We see these as mediums and tools for our

Glynis Tao

So you started with vinyl record handbags, it's like a signature item I see on your website right now. It's very unique. It stands out. What drew you specifically to vinyl records as your starting point and what did they symbolize in the context of culture and storytelling within your brand? I think you touched on that in terms of your background and story, but maybe expand more into how you are able to take the handbags and then to turn it into an actual piece.

Liliane Daou

Yeah, so basically like the way we see culture is people express themselves in a place or a geography. And it could be through things like the music they produce, the arts they produce, the way they wear their style or the architecture that they make, which eventually creates the city and this whole ecosystem. And so music is a very big cultured expression wherever you go. And that's our idea. We took a symbol of music, which is a vinyl record that also was once destined to waste. take vinyl records and we upcycle them. it's like a music symbol and we kind of give it a new life and we make a handbag out of it. And our concept is like every city, every collection is going to be a city and every handbag will tell the story of a music genre from the city. And so the design of the handbag, the design of the label needs to kind of say this. Like we started with New York and we have four handbags. Each one is a sound that is very prominent in New York. We have the jazz, the hip hop, the blues and disco and all of these sounds. Like if you live in New York, you come here, you will definitely will encounter them and hear them. And in different settings and setups and ways, you know, like when you think about jazz, it's like these very elegant jazz bars in New York. And we tried to replicate or translate that with the burgundy color being very minimalistic. But then when you think about disco, it's a bit more courageous and it's more fun. So our label has like a small illustration that we used silver to translate that. So this is how we took like a symbol of music and we turned it into something that you can own. And also we wanted it to be a handbag because we wanted the culture to be carried like culture isn't always something you can get a souvenir and put it at home like we wanted that to symbolize something that you can have with you and wear around and carry with you every day. So this is how we thought about it and like music is one cultural expression Our vision is to also translate other things in a city like the performing arts scene the street culture Everything that makes up a city and its culture. This is what CAHAIA is aimed to do. Again, this is our vision. We're still in very early stages. Things can change. The market can tell us, people love your handbags. You just need to double down on handbags. But our vision as of now is how do we expand beyond that, keeping the culture at its core?

Glynis Tao

There's often this perception that luxury brands launch and quickly gain traction. What has your experience actually look like?

Liliane Daou

I think this is very different than reality. Honestly, luxury is very slow. In our case, we thankfully got a lot of traction in the first few months of launching, maybe because it was the launch hype, but friends and friends of friends and even complete strangers heard about us somehow and were curious and were buying our handbags. But in general, luxury is very slow because you are convincing someone to buy a piece for $600 plus when they don't know who you are, they just discovered you. They want to dig deeper and try to learn more about you, you haven't had the time to build that. You probably have one blog on your website, a few posts on your Instagram. There is a whole world-building phase that needs a lot of time. And so in general, luxury is on the contrary. It's very slow, I would say. It's different than what people think. There is overnight stories, definitely, but it would be outliers, I would say. It would be people who already are in that scene, already have the connections, or have a lot of capital for marketing or the PR. I think in our case, we started off very strong, but we're aware that this might slow down because like, building a world, you know, and you're trying to build trust and repetition and storytelling and all of this takes time.

Glynis Tao

And I think you're building a lot of that trust through your storytelling on your social channels. I think you do an amazing job on your social Instagram telling a story behind the brand. And one post that really caught my attention was you saying that, well, most brands launch within a year, but for us it took three years. So what are some things you wish you knew before starting a luxury brand that would have changed how you approach the early stages? You're in it, still in it right now, right? Because you just recently launched, but maybe some of those things that you've learned along the way.

Liliane Daou

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for us is mindset launching. I think we launched and thinking we need to convert, we need to sell. But now with time, we realize that there is a big part in the beginning stages of a brand that is trying to position itself in premium or luxury. There's a big part of world building, creating that desire, creating this culture and relevance. The storytelling, which we try to do. I don't think we're perfect at it in any way or another. We're still learning, but just having this mindset that we should focus on sales, but we're building awareness and this traffic is as important and it should potentially in the first initial stages, like the first year be the main focus of the brand versus trying to sell. 

To convince people, you need to let them want to be part of what you're building, even if eventually they will not be the customer or people who are going to buy your product. But I think that this is one thing that we kind of knew about, but not as much as when we started and we were like, OK, we are a premium brand. We need to build a world around it. We need people to really understand what is the culture house. It's much more beyond than a handbag. And we need to have, I don't know, blogs. We need to have stories, all of these things. Our campaigns always need to be top notch. A lot of these things that we knew about, but I think once you get into it, it becomes very concrete. So I think this is the biggest learning and the mindset switch from conversion to awareness and word building.

Glynis Tao

Many founders think they need to scale before they can position themselves as luxury. What's your perspective on that?

Liliane Daou

I think the opposite, when you like so much scale can dilute a luxury positioning. And for me, luxury is not equal to volume. Luxury really is based on quality storytelling, the brand perception you're creating and the price point that you have. And if you have these nailed down properly, then whether you're selling or producing 10, 15 handbags or thousands, you can still be associated with luxury. And I think these things are very important. They should become part of the identity of your brand, like who you are, what is your price point, et cetera. You should have them from the beginning of building a brand. I don't think building and scaling and then waking up one day and being like, I want to shift is very hard. I think you should start it from the beginning and compound and let it evolve. So they should be part of the core values or identity of a brand. But I don't think scale is really what matters. And on the contrary, I think having scarcity, being small, having limited editions is a powerful thing because then it adds more value to whatever product you are trying to sell.

Glynis Tao

This first launch of your vinyl records handbags collection, did you produce a limited run? Is there a limited quantity available?

Liliane Daou

Yeah, we have a limited quantity. One, it's because we didn't want to accumulate inventory. This is the most important thing when you're starting a brand. It's better to have pre-orders to be out of stock than to have, I don't know, 500 pieces laying down in your apartment and not knowing what to do with it. And eventually, if you have limited pieces, what's the worst case? If it doesn't work, you can stop and give them to your friends, your family, you know. But I think just having limited inventory is important just because you're still testing the market. But also, like for us, producing these handbags is not easy. It's a very complicated process. It's very long. So it's not like we can produce thousands and thousands all at once. And so we wanted to be conscious about the production that we want to do, how much we want to invest in, at the same time testing the market. Are people going to like this or not? Do we need to pivot and create a completely different product? And when you're still asking these questions at the beginning, it just makes more sense to have a fewer number of inventory.

Glynis Tao

Yeah. And whoever loves these bags should get their hands on them because there are very few in production that have been produced, right? How did you go about finding the manufacturing for these? These are all handmade.

Liliane Daou

Yeah, we already sold out one of the colors. It's a whole supply chain. The way it starts is like we decide on what is the city we want to focus on. For us, it was New York. And then what are like the sounds or the stories of New York that we want to highlight? So we said like, okay, jazz, hip hop, et cetera. For each one of these, then we work with a designer, ideally like a local designer that also understands the culture of New York that helps us design the label of the disc. And then what we do is we ship that design or we send that design to our factory, the vinyl factory in Europe that basically recycles vinyl records and presses the record with the label design our label design. Once that's done, then they send it back to our atelier where we choose the leather, the stitching, and we assemble it.

There are so many different touch points. A lot of people ask us, can you customize a handbag for me? Can you do a design? We can't just talk to the factory and be like, okay, test this disc for me and do it. Yet, I think later on, if we scale and we're bigger, then we would love to do that. But it is a long process. There is so much in every step that needs to be done. We need to see the sample, do we like it or not, et cetera. Yeah.

Glynis Tao

It's so interesting. I love to hear more about that. It's sort of the process, you know, in terms of how you make your products. Is there a story that you could tell?

Liliane Daou

Definitely. We have a bit of it on our website. I think that's another thing that we need to shed more light on. When you start a brand, there's so many things you want to talk about, and you don't know whether you should talk about the process, the product, or even the family dynamics. We're four family members doing all of this. There's so much, and I think it takes time. But I know a lot of people are always curious with how we do our handbags because it is a very interesting and long process.

Glynis Tao

Is there somebody in your team or your family member who has a background in fashion, production, manufacturing?

Liliane Daou

No, not at all. We are all engineers or doctors, literally. Like me and two of my siblings were engineers and then my younger brother is a dentist. My parents are both doctors. So we really come from a very different background. Like we never had any connections or knowledge in the fashion space or culture. Like what we had is passion, dedication. We have a vision. We love storytelling. And we believe that, okay, like we've worked long enough with other people and other companies solving other companies' problems. Like we can figure it out, you know, but yeah, it is challenging because especially with fashion, which is like our first medium, you need to have a lot of connections. You need the PR, like the market is saturated. So it's a lot of things that we are building brick by brick. And now for example, I like freelancing in fashion companies because that helps me a lot more understanding like the dynamics of the fashion industry, the business behind it. I also get to know people that might become very valuable in our network. We don't have that background at all. I would say we're potentially creative. Like we love creativity, but we don't know how to sketch. We have a lot of very good freelancers that help us though, so we've been blessed to work with very talented people.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, that's important. Your partners that you work with on the product side of the business. Really, it's important to ensure a very well-made, high quality product.

Liliane Daou

Yeah.

Glynis Tao

Your work sits at the intersection of culture, travel, and fashion. How do you personally define culture?

Liliane Daou

Yeah, like it's what I mentioned before. I think culture for me is like how people express themselves and a specific place. Music, art, fashion—all of this sits under the umbrella of culture. And so it really is like how people gather, how do they dress, how do they communicate in a specific geography or place. I feel like it is like the umbrella that has all these other pillars. But yeah, it's the way that people express themselves in a place. That's how I think about it. I think culture could be defined or understood in very different ways to different people. But that's how I think about it. Yeah.

Glynis Tao

Yeah. And I think also you mentioned that your idea behind the brand was most of the time when you travel to a new city and then you leave, you have a feeling, but you don't have anything you could take with you from that city. And I think that's sort of the idea what you wanted to take, to be able to translate the culture of a city into a wearable object.

Liliane Daou

Yeah. And like for us, it's like, how can we get, I don't know, Rio de Janeiro closer to you without you having to travel there? And it can be through like a fashion piece, which are like our vinyl handbags. It could be through objects or artworks. We have a very big vision in like, what are the things we want to do? In your space, in your home, how can we bring this culture closer to you without you having to like travel, you know? We go to these places, we fall in love with them, we try to reinterpret them ourselves and create something that is tangible that people can hold. That's our vision now and our goal with CAHAIA.

Glynis Tao

Before we wrap up, how do you balance patience with ambition when you're building something long-term, especially in a world that pushes for fast growth?

Liliane Daou

Yeah, very good question. It is honestly one of the most challenging things because when you're building something, you're so excited, you want to see results the next day, you want to sell out and tell your friends, we're doing amazing. And the reality is things take time, especially in that space. You just need to be patient. And the way I handle it is a few things.

One I try to always stay very focused on the long-term vision like where do I want to get? Okay, maybe I don't love what's happening on a day to day or things are not progressing the way I want to etc. But then I'm like, okay, what's my long-term goal? That's the goal. That's what I need to focus on. 

The second thing is I try not to compare myself to other brands that are way ahead of me and that's something like we all fall into that trap of looking around and being like, oh my God, like this happened with them. Like, why aren't we doing the same? And especially in the first phase or first few years where you're still building your identity. And so I try to just remind myself like, that's me. That's my timeline. And I try to look at other brands or companies for inspiration, for learning, but yeah, I try not to fall into that trap.

The third thing is try to do side gigs or have other jobs where you see momentum and you see growth and you have a source of income and you see money coming in. And I think this balance is very important because like your business, you're going to have weeks where you're doing amazing other weeks where it's slower. And these lower weeks could be demotivating and hard. But if you have another side gig that you still are seeing momentum there, you're still seeing cash coming in and you know, then you can balance that. And I think it's very healthy. 

And I think the last thing is the support system. Again, I think I am so lucky that I'm doing this with my siblings. And so like whenever we want to see growth, we never, you know, we're in doubt or we just go back to each other and talk through together. We motivate each other. Even like sometimes we think about it like, even if a year from now we realized that this was such a bad idea, we failed, we need to close the business, we will never regret doing that because investing in that meant that we invested in memories together and we can never regret that. So I feel like having a partner, a co-founder helps so much because it's like a constant reminder that someone who's motivating you, who's in it with you. And also like someone you're sharing memories and learning and growing with which is like one of the best things, I think definitely it's hard and sometimes I wake up and I'm like I want this to happen by tomorrow. But then yeah, I take a step back and I'm like, okay, that's my long-term goal I should just look at my timeline. I pick up the phone and call my brother, you know, and we talk it through. 

So there are a lot of things that you should do to keep your mindset positive. But yeah, it takes a lot of like practice and being in the now and like believing in yourself that if you have a dream and a goal, like it will just take time by why wouldn't it work if you're dedicated enough, you're adaptable enough, you can just read the market, the data and pivot, we started with handbags. If it doesn't work, then we can pivot into another product, you know, it doesn't work. We can put it into something else.

Glynis Tao

Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Liliane Daou

They can find me on Instagram. My handle is @liliane_daou. Also the handle of our brand, CAHAIA, is @cahaiaculture. If they want to visit the website, it's also cahaiaculture.com But yeah, mostly on Instagram, on LinkedIn, of course, Liliane Daou also.

Glynis Tao

If you’re listening and this conversation resonated with you, I highly recommend you to check out Liliane's work and follow her journey with CAHAIA. It's a beautiful example of what it looks like to build with both strategy and soul. Liliane, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your perspective.

Liliane Daou

Thank you so much. I had such a good time and it was so nice talking to you. Thank you.

You Can’t Be for Everyone: How to Build a Brand That Stands Out

by Glynis Tao | Mar 31, 2026 | Podcast

Discover what it truly takes to build a meaningful, lasting brand beyond surface-level marketing. Robyn Young explains that strong brands are rooted in a clear point of view and a deep understanding of their audience’s mindset, not just demographics or aesthetics. She introduces the concept of a “brand universe,” where every touchpoint works together to create a cohesive and memorable experience, and emphasizes that differentiation comes from ideas, not just visuals. The conversation also highlights the dangers of chasing short-term growth and vanity metrics, encouraging founders to focus instead on long-term brand resilience, loyalty, and trust. Ultimately, the episode reinforces that successful brands are built with clarity, conviction, and the discipline to stay focused on a distinct vision, even when it means not appealing to everyone.

About Robyn Young

Robyn Young is a brand strategist, author, and founder of Young & Co., a strategy studio dedicated to helping independent brands move beyond surface-level marketing to build what she calls “brand universes”: layered, immersive brand identities that foster recognition, trust, and long-term loyalty. Over the past decade, she has launched or relaunched more than a hundred brands, working with companies across all stages of growth, from emerging category leaders to established businesses undergoing major reinvention. Robyn’s work centers on helping founders articulate a clear point of view, strengthen brand resilience, and create businesses designed for lasting relevance rather than short-term hype. She is also the author of Build Your Brand Universe, a number one Amazon hot new release, and a sought-after speaker on brand strategy, positioning, and standing out in competitive markets.

Contact Info

Website: http://thisisyoung.co 

Instagram: @robynyoung.co

TikTok: @robynyoung.co

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robyn-young/ 

Takeaways

• Build your brand around a clear point of view, not just a visually-polished aesthetic.
• Don’t try to appeal to everyone since specificity is what makes a brand memorable in crowded markets.
• Speak to your audience’s mindset and beliefs, not just their demographics.
• Create a cohesive brand universe where every touchpoint reinforces the same core idea.
• Avoid chasing vanity metrics and prioritize trust, loyalty, and word of mouth instead.
• Use brand strategy as a compass to guide decisions even in the early stages.
• Think long term and build for relevance rather than short term hype or quick wins.

Interview Themes

What is a brand and why does it matter?

A brand is not your logo, colors, or social media feed. It’s the perception people form when they interact with your business. While branding elements help shape that perception, the brand itself lives in the mind of your audience. This means founders must think beyond visuals and focus on the impression they want to leave behind.

Why shouldn’t brands rely on aesthetics to stand out?

A strong visual identity can attract attention, but it’s not enough to stay competitive against market competitors. Aesthetics are easy to replicate, making it difficult for brands to stand out long-term. To actually differentiate your business from others, focus on identifying a deep idea or point of view, with visuals serving as a reflection of that idea.

Why should founders focus on mindset instead of demographics?

Demographics tell you who your audience is on paper, but psychographics reveal how they think, what they value, and what they believe. Brands that connect on this deeper level with their audience are more likely to develop customer loyalty because they resonate with how people see themselves.

What is a “brand universe” and why does it matter?

A brand universe is a cohesive ecosystem where every touchpoint—content, messaging, visuals, partnerships—works together under one central idea. Instead of disjointed marketing efforts, everything reinforces the same core belief, creating a more immersive and recognizable experience for the audience.

What is “shallow growth” and why should you avoid it?

Shallow growth focuses on vanity metrics like follower count, quick wins, or viral moments that don’t translate into real loyalty. While these can create temporary spikes, they don’t build lasting brand equity. Sustainable brands prioritize trust, repeat customers, and word-of-mouth over short-term attention.

When should you start thinking about brand strategy?

Brand strategy isn’t just for later stages. It can act as a compass from the very beginning. Even if you’re still testing your product, having a clear direction helps guide decisions, align your messaging, and ensure consistency as you grow.

What does it take to build a brand people trust and return to?

It comes down to clarity and conviction. You need to clearly understand and articulate your point of view, and you need the conviction to stand by it over time. When your internal beliefs align with your external actions, you create a brand that feels authentic, consistent, and worth coming back to.

Transcript

Robyn Young

I think the key is really you cannot be for everyone. Like of all the things that I could say right now, I think that's the one that is the hardest for people to grasp. It's the one thing that I really hope that people can kind of get through their mind is that in the moment, when you start to lean into a psychographic mindset of a customer base that you want to attract, it can feel very uncomfortable because you know that you're dividing the room in a way. You're saying, okay, we're automatically not going to be for these people who relate to these things over here. But what it really does is if you can get past that discomfort, it opens up all of this potential for then how to treat your brand in a very distinct way that then makes it sticky, memorable, something that creates that loyalty that really speaks to people.

Glynis Tao

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

Today's guest is Robyn Young, a brand strategist, author, and founder of Young & Co., a strategy studio that helps independent brands move beyond surface level marketing and build what she calls brand universes. These are layered brand worlds that people recognize, trust, and return to over time. Over the past decade, Robyn has helped launch or relaunch more than a hundred brands. She has worked with companies at every stage of growth from emerging category leaders to neutral and very sharp to establish enterprises navigating major reinvention. Her work focuses on helping founders clarify their point of view, build brand resilience and create businesses designed for long-term relevance rather than short-term hype. She's also the author of the book, Build Your Brand Universe, which became a number one Amazon hot new release. In addition, she is a frequent speaker on brand strategy, positioning, and what it really takes to stand out in crowded markets. 

In today's conversation, we talk about why aesthetic alone is not a strategy, how founders can avoid what Robyn calls shallow scale, and why understanding your audience's mindset, not just the demographics, is one of the most powerful ways to build a brand people genuinely connect with. If you're building a fashion, lifestyle or impact brand and want to create something that lasts, this episode will give you a lot to think about. 

Robyn, welcome to the Chase Your Dreams podcast.

Robyn Young

Thank you.

Glynis Tao

I'm so excited to have this conversation with you because so many founders listening are working hard to build brands that actually mean something, not just brands that chase the next trend, and your work around brand universes and long-term brand resilience speaks directly to that. So to start us off, I'd love to go back to the beginning of your journey.

Robyn Young

Yeah. I'm like, where to begin? I mean, it's hard to compartmentalize. I've been working in different facets of branding and marketing for much longer than I've had Young & Co. My business, Young & Co., I've had it for 10 years now. It'll be 10 years in October. Prior to that, we had worked with companies like UCLA and their branding and marketing department. I had worked in digital media, I had worked in fashion, I had worked in traditional media, so I have a lot of breadth in the development of brands at different facets—everything from market research to marketing campaigns to actual identity development. And it really gave me a very well-rounded knowledge of how to do this, not only in different size companies, but in different categories. What I found, and I really only became interested in brand strategy at the beginning of my business because I had already worked in sort of the creative execution and the production of brands, but I really only became interested in, you know, what actually makes an identity at the beginning of my business. And since then, you know, the more I learn, the more I realize there's more to know, which is why I feel like what I wanted to bring to my book is this deeper understanding. I feel like a lot of brand strategy books, they're very high on theory and not very suitable to somebody who's just starting out, who doesn't really know the terminology or the structure of building a brand identity. So I wanted to create something that made sense for them. So at the very beginning, it was a lot of like figuring it out as I went. 

I left my very cushy tech job to start this business while I was two months pregnant, by the way. Not an ideal time, by the way, to be starting a business. And I certainly wouldn't necessarily recommend that for people. Like, don't start the way that I did, which was no clients, no money, no idea how to get either of those. It creates a very stressful environment for you. But it worked out for me because within four years I was already making multiple six figures. And I think the part that really resonated for me in a way was that when we approached the brand, we didn't just see it as creating matching luggage. What I like to call matching luggage is just like a shallow aesthetic. We really tried to get into the depths of what makes this interesting? What is the bigger idea that sits at the center of this that makes it something that people would feel loyal to? And as I started to shape that out and more importantly, developed a framework for building that, that's when I, in the last year, that's when I, well, to be fair, 2024 is when I started writing the book and then Build Your Brand Universe launched in January 2025. So that's really when I started to refine and create some ownership and IP around that process. So it's been a wild ride, to say the least.

Glynis Tao

I'm sure it has. And your book is called Build Your Brand Universe. What does a brand universe actually mean? And how is that different from simply having a brand identity?

Robyn Young

That’s such a good question. I love this. So a brand identity, let's start there. So I think a lot of people conflate brand with the things that we use to try and drive what a brand actually is. Okay. So a brand is an impression or a perception that someone has when they're interacting with your business or you or your product, whatever you're selling, right? What is it? What's that gut feeling that they get? That's what your brand actually is. Okay, so brand is the noun. It is something that theoretically isn't in your control because it's what they think it is, not what you say it is. So branding is then everything that you use to drive that perception, like your visual identity, like your vocal identity, your content, your marketing message, all of that. That's branding because you're using it as a vehicle to help you drive that perception.

Now, your point of view, what I talk about as brand strategist, your point of view is the thing that makes it distinct and memorable and ownable. So it's a bigger story that sits at the center. Okay. Once you have those things, you have an understanding of those things, then you can start to think about building your own brand world. That is, it doesn't even necessarily need to be a physical world. I see lots of brands that are actually building a sort of tangible world in the platforms that they have online or through different touch points. But it's a distinct vibe that you get, not just because of an aesthetic, but because of a bigger point of view or idea that makes it sticky, that makes it memorable, that allows people to recognize it. So, that's what your brand universe is. It's not just stringing together touch points that don't have anything to do with one another. It's something that has a very clear and different center of gravity to it. And then everything that you create from that is in service of that. The idea behind a brand universe is it's like a connected brand ecosystem, wherein everything kind of feeds each other because it all has that center of gravity in common. Does that make sense?

Glynis Tao

Yes. Now, could you give us an example of say, maybe someone you've worked with or a brand who is doing it really well, who has built a brand universe?

Robyn Young

Yes, absolutely. Oh my gosh, there's so many to imagine. I mean, in every category, you probably have somebody that is playing really well into brands. So like if I'm taking the water category, Liquid Death has a brand world. They have a rich textured world with multiple touch points that all come back to the same personality and point of view, which is death to plastic. Liquid Death was smart in that they recognized early on that their product wasn't innately different. It was water. Water in a can. This company's worth a billion dollars now, like genius, right? What made it different is that rather than spending their marketing dollars talking about how metal was infinitely recyclable, they put all of their investment and time and energy into building a brand that was a representation of heavy metal. So that's the personality trait, like why it's relevant to where they're actually positioned. And then yes, they were able to catch some early waves that really cultivated that difference, such as, you know, the non-alcoholic movement made it really useful for them to then have their products within bars, let's say. But they leveraged a visual language and a vocal identity to then shape wherever they showed up at any touch point, it created something that people were engaged with, that they could recognize and that they could interact with. So that's what I mean when I say there's this ecosystem there, right? And I think too often when people are just thinking about the aesthetic or a surface level vibe, it's much easier to copy. It's much easier for somebody to come in and create something that feels very similar, and then it's not as sticky. It doesn't create that same kind of traction. So when you're too focused on joining a platform and you're too in the weeds on just getting the traction on just that platform, what that does is it waters down your own brand and your own personality, your own identity. So it doesn't allow you to create the kind of, you know, traction that you want for your own brand.

Glynis Tao

From your perspective, what separates the brands that become truly memorable from those that struggle to stand out?

Robyn Young

Good question. I think that first of all, you cannot be a brand for everyone. And I think that people are starting to understand that because we're hearing a lot of like, you need to know your niche and know your audience. I feel like this is language that in theory people have heard, but what's funny is when they go to actually establish a content strategy, their marketing strategy, their marketing message, what they put forward is what I call a platitude. So it's all dialed into what their product features and benefits are or what their tech stack is. It dials up on the product. There's no point of view there because the very nature of a point of view is that people have to disagree with it. There needs to be somebody who would disagree with it. If it's not something that people disagree with, it's not a point of view. So it's not really something that is ownable for you. It's not really something you build an identity around. So starting with something that speaks to not a demographic, but speaks to a mindset, a psychographic, that's where you can really lay the foundation that then leads to brand loyalty. It's the more that you are willing to sacrifice one audience in service of another. That's what creates something that's more memorable. And it's very hard to do. It's not easy because you have to be willing to accept that you're not going to be for everyone. And that's not an easy route, especially for a brand that's just starting out. Knowing that you're going to alienate some people is very hard to do in practice.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, and speaking of just starting out, so many founders focus heavily on product development or marketing tactics early on. At which point should they start seriously about brand strategy?

Robyn Young

You know, that's a good question that has been asked so many times. And of course, the maddening answer I'm going to give is it depends. It depends because if you are, let's say, a solopreneur just starting out, you don't really know much about your audience, you don't really know much about your category, listen. A brand strategy is never going to be a bad thing to have because it aligns your ultimate goal with what you're saying in the moment, what you're trying to build in the moment. So you could see it as not exactly a plan. It's more of like a North star, a compass, right? So I find that even early on, it can be very helpful for figuring out what is in and out of bounds as you're laying that initial foundation for how your brand is showing up. Because here's the thing—you're never going to get a second chance at that first impression. 

Now, that said, there's a lot to be said about getting an MVP, testing the market with your actual product and seeing if it's something that people even want. Learning the ropes a little bit, figuring out what's the cultural cadence when it comes to my world? Like what are people really interested in? Sometimes, those things just take time. They take time for you to understand. So I do think that there's something to be said about, you know, making sure that you have a solid business strategy first, because your business strategy and your brand strategy, they should align. So if you have no clue what your business is going to be, it makes it harder for you to then build a sound brand strategy. Even though your brand strategy is about the point of view beyond what you're selling, it should still align with what you're offering. You should see the offer as basically being like the punchline rather than the headline because if you go out there leading with, we've got a sustainable fashion brand, first of all, you're going to fall on deaf ears. There's nothing about that that gives you any competitive edge. But it's also just like you're only capturing somebody who might be looking for that specific thing at that time. The data tells us that's about 2% of the market in any category. People who are looking for what you're doing right now, it's 2 to 5%. So everybody that's product-first, you're squabbling over 2 to 5%. Rather than there's a fraction of the market that isn't looking right now, but they might be in the next 12 to 18 months or shorter. 

So the name of the game is, how do you create an ecosystem in which you can engage these people until they're ready to buy from you? So it's that same idea of staying top of mind, but rather than trying to do it by constantly demanding their attention, which as we know, gets very noisy, it's instead creating these thoughtful platforms and touch points that double down on that point of view so that that way they can engage with you and then eventually buy from you. Or in some cases, it might be referring people to you. It just sort of changes the way in which we think about shaping that part, if that makes sense.

Glynis Tao

And so I think this moves us into the conversation about why aesthetic isn't a strategy. One of the ideas you talk about is that vibes and brand aesthetic are not the same thing as strategy. I think this is something a lot of founders struggle with, especially in fashion and lifestyle, where visual identity is so important. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Robyn Young

Yes. And listen, I spent many years as a fashion stylist. In fact, when I first moved to LA, that's where I started. I wanted to be a stylist and I worked within the commercial and editorial space and nobody loves a great aesthetic vibe like me. But that said, it's not going to give you a competitive edge. So it's not quite as simple as just, we need an original aesthetic or we need a vibe. That's all well and fine, but then somebody else could come in and mimic that and there's really nothing to say they're going to choose you versus this person. You're always going to get into that same trap. There's really no room for you to have conviction into something deeper. Plus, I think that the consumer base is becoming much more savvy. They care about more than just a vibe, right? That doesn't mean don't have a strong aesthetic. You're in fashion, of course, like this is something that's going to be pertinent, but the key is to establish what makes you interesting, what makes you different and then let the aesthetic be led by that. So it's kind of flipping it on its head. Whereas it used to be emphasized to create the visual identity and let the consumer base decide or tell you who you are in relation to other brands. Now that's just not, it's not sort of building strategically anymore. Instead, figure out what the category needs not just at a product or functional level, but figure out at an emotional level, at a highest order benefit level and then build your brand around that everything from the vibe that aesthetic the visual identity the name, you know. I mean down to your retail environment and you know your packaging. All of that should be in service of what is that impression that we want to give? What is that, you know, bigger reputation we want to build? So if you're thinking long term, if you want to build something that actually creates that loyalty, you have to be zooming out, see the bigger picture, not just be thinking about, how do I survive today?

Glynis Tao

I think what you're saying is to look deeper beyond surface level. Why do you think so many early stage brands rely heavily on the aesthetic instead of developing a clear brand point of view?

Robyn Young

Because this isn't information that is widely communicated, to be honest. It's funny because corporations, the Fortune 100 companies that I've worked with, they know this. They know this and they use this widely, right? But at an entrepreneurial level, a brand point of view is not a tangible thing. So everybody starts a company knowing you know, I need a logo, I need a website. Like, these are tangible assets that we know we need. And I think sometimes people, founders especially, can think, I have a clear idea of what my point of view is, and that might be true. In some cases, I work with founders and they do have a clear point of view, but the problem is that it isn't being articulated. It's either not being articulated in their message, it's not being articulated in their content, in their ads, in their website. So just having a point of view is only one side of the coin. 

The other side of the coin is how well you amplify it so that it actually drives that perception. That's the hard part about brand is like, it's a complicated game of telephone. I have something I want to say. Starting at place A is you need to have something to say. You'd be surprised how many founders just want to create a business just to line their pockets and listen, like, I get it, but that's never going to motivate anybody but you. Not going to motivate your team, not going to motivate your customers, not going to create any kind of loyalty. So the idea is creating something interesting to say and then saying it, but saying it with your whole chest with everything that you do. That's the game.

Glynis Tao

All of it is ingrained in everything that you go beyond all the visual aesthetics. I mean, can you give us an example of apparel brands, a fashion brand that is doing really well? I'm sure the ones who have been around a long time, right? 

Robyn Young

Yes. 

Glynis Tao

Does it necessarily need to be? Those legacy brands?

Robyn Young

Yes and no. It doesn't necessarily need to be. I'm going to give you three examples because I want to show how this works regardless of vibe, the aesthetic, right? So probably the most familiar, Patagonia. Like, listen, I don't personally own anything Patagonia, but I could tell you everything about this brand. So it started very naturally, very organically, and the founder has such a compelling story about actually building within this climbing world. I think that that naturally lends itself to what was most important to Patagonia, but the point is it started as something that was such a small need, but a very established point of view about the world. So not just fashion, but about the world and what we should be focused on. And now today, many, many, many years later, they still put that at the forefront of decisions that they make, not just at a marketing level, not just at an aesthetic level, but at a business level. That's phenomenal. It's probably one of the best examples. Obviously, they have this social impact component to their point of view, but I think what's important is for people to understand you don't necessarily have to be a social impact brand in order to have a strong brand point of view.

So the other one that I use today in a talk that I gave is Jacquemus. Are you familiar with Jacquemus, that fashion brand? very, it's a very French name, but it's spelt like J-A-C-Q-U-E-M-U-S. 

Glynis Tao

Okay, I think I've seen this around.

Robyn Young

Yep. It's Jacquemus.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, I thought it was Jackamoose or something. I wasn't seeing it. I was totally saying it wrong.

Robyn Young

I had been saying it wrong for but they only recently sort of appeared on my radar. And I found what was so interesting about this brand is they've captured this sort of almost ironic point of view about luxury fashion as a luxury brand. So a lot of times they're poking fun at luxury and the tropes of luxury fashion as a luxury fashion brand, which is kind of amazing when you think about it. And that whimsical dreamlike kind of aesthetic really lends itself to that point of view. So this is a brand where it's worked for them to have that different perspective. They've brought an element of humor and irony to a category that if you think about it, was relatively stuffy—a little too into itself. And what's interesting about that is it opened it up to engage with people who may not otherwise have cared much about luxury fashion. 

So, we're now talking about a brand that leveraged that same point of view and baked it into even their events, their PR stunts. I'm sure you saw this, I talked about it today. It was an AI-generated video, these big purses driving through Paris. I don't know if you're on TikTok much, but in 2023, this was like a funny video that they released that, yeah, of course people knew this can't be real, but it went absolutely nutty viral—like 2 million views on TikTok. So what was interesting about this brand is that they actually created real reproductions of these huge bags and drove them through the streets of Paris as a PR stunt. Again, it’s a personality, but again, it's not just about a personality—it's a personality with some meaning behind it. It's capturing what is lacking within the category and it has nothing to do with social impact. So you can have a point of view that is still very distinctly you that gives you that competitive edge and then use your aesthetics, your content, your marketing, your stunts to be in service of that. Right. So that's another example. 

And the one that I see that is somewhat emerging that I've been keeping my eye on is Late Checkout. Are you familiar with Late Checkout?

Glynis Tao

No.

Robyn Young

Okay, I'm fascinated obviously with this category having worked six years in fashion. So I always like to kind of keep my finger on the pulse of like, who's doing what. Late Checkout was created by these para founders who would travel around the world, but they always kind of felt a little like they had just missed the mark. So when they were staying at hotels, it was like they were always just a bit late for the breakfast buffet or just a little far behind in the happy hour. What they saw in that was this crossover between the mindset of somebody who feels like they're running on their own time. So what I like about that is that's a great representation noticing a mindset of a customer base and then shaping your brand around that. So in the very name, Late Checkout, they're speaking to this audience that does take a more relaxed approach to things. And they have, again, an aesthetic that lends itself to that. So they aren't led by trends really. I mean, they have their own sort of visual language and honestly, talk about a brand world, when you go to their site, you'll actually see that their collections are named after characters. Within the site itself, the way that the tone reads is as if you are visiting a hotel and the hotel is very uniquely their hotel. So they're using a story to create something that feels different than just your standard e-commerce shop.

So it's a perfect representation of like, how do you create something that feels distinct, that's enjoyable for somebody to engage with, that actually makes them feel like I'm entering into a world rather than just I'm visiting their site, right? And I will tell you, they are technologically savvy about their site. They're really using very, you know, simple things to do this. I mean, you'd be surprised how much just a great tone of voice of your copy and some original photography and the idea of, you know, using this hotel reference can go such a long way. That's what I love about them as a brand. You know, we're not talking about a brand that has billions of dollars to spend because yeah, I have very different expectations from a brand like that. We're talking about a brand that hasn't been around that long in comparison and is still utilizing this strategy. It's fascinating to me. Yes, yes, Late Checkout. I think now that I've mentioned it to you, you're going to start seeing them because they do a lot of brand collaborations too, which I think is very smart. Again, when you have an emerging brand, who you partner with, other brands that you partner with, other influencers you partner with, that should also be in service of what you want to drive this brand point of like a filter and a lens in which you can look at everything with your business and determine what are the things that we say yes to that are going to be in service of that bigger vision that we have and what are the things that, equally important, we say no to, even if they feel like great opportunities, if they're off-brand long-term, they're probably doing more damage than they are good.

Glynis Tao

So let's talk about building brand resilience versus chasing growth. Today, there's so much pressure on founders to grow quickly, scale fast, raise funding, go viral. How do you help brands focus on long-term resilience instead of short-term growth tactics?

Robyn Young

That’s such a good one. So first of all, in the way that we approach brands, it's not tactic focused—it's not formulaic. And that often does mean that you can have short-term you're keeping your eye on the long-term prize. So while I'm not here to criticize anyone for seeking out funding, you got to do what you got to do.

What I'm noticing is that in this time where money is expensive, there isn't as much funding going around, especially in the last couple of years, that's been true. Especially if you're not in an AI related field, that's very true too. What I'm noticing is that there is this group of fiercely independent brands that are finding ways to bootstrap, to raise friends and family money, to generate sales and revenue on their own, to grow slower rather than just focus on that unicorn scale. And I think that it's very, I think it's very astute because what you do is you maintain ownership, which means that you have the opportunity to really say yes and no. Because the moment that you start giving ownership away, you start losing that a lot of times, VCs aren't as… not all VCs, obviously. You can find some that understand the vision and what you're trying to accomplish, and maybe they buy into that. That's true for angel investors too. So it's not everyone, but a lot of times they're going to cut the magic. They're going to cut all the things that don't serve the bottom line, right? But that's not what creates a great brand. And if you ask anybody who has created a great brand, they will tell you the same thing, that you can't always be led by just services and the profit margin. So I think that how we approach brand building in general is how do we shape and let the point of view that we're trying to build the impression, that perception, around the brand? How do we let that be the filter and the lens that leads these decisions? And it's not just at a marketing level, it's at a product level, it's at a service level. It's within your own culture if you have a team. It could even be within the behaviors and actions of how the business gets represented, let's say within a pitch. Even if you're having a call with VCs or with angel investors, you want to bring that perspective to that conversation because that's something you want to make sure that they're on board with, that they get, they understand. 

So we really prepare our clients to make those decisions and start acting in a way that helps them to keep that at the forefront because it is so noisy out there. It's so easy to become distracted by things like algorithms and somebody's best kept secret formula, their proven frameworks, whatever. The virality of these approaches is really creating an environment in which people are only concerned with the short term, and unfortunately, that's become what I like to call the shallow part of the pool. It is the most busy space. So it's also the most expensive space for you to try and stand out in. Whereas if you take that time to do the deep work and you make your investment of your time, of your resources in service of that very specific, clear cut message and perception you want to drive, you naturally remove things from the table that don't make sense for that. So it can actually be a great efficiency tool if you know how to use it.

Glynis Tao

You talk about helping brands resist shallow growth. What does shallow growth look like in practice and why do so many brands fall into that trap?

Robyn Young

I think the most common trap I see is follower like, listen, the jig is up. You can buy followers. Does that mean that you have any more loyalty than you started with? No, it doesn't. Right. I think that, again, people I think are starting to wake up to that, but innately they still tend to think in terms of vanity metrics, right? What I tend to be more focused on is not just a single sale. I mean, good, like it's great. You need those initial sales. You need a trial, right? But you haven't really gained loyalty until you get to the point where somebody trusts you, trusts your brand enough to start referring to it. That word of mouth that happens organically, that's when you've really started to build that brand equity. So if you make that part of the metrics that you use, it will serve you a lot better than those vanity metrics will. And again, I think for people who are really just looking for that easy funding opportunity because they secretly want to just be acquired and exit. They're not going to take the time to do this. But for that fiercely independent founder who I know is out there listening to this, the person who genuinely wants this to be part of their legacy, who wants to create something genuinely special that reaches out and touches their audience and creates that kind of loyalty. That's what this track is for. That's who I'm for. That's who I want to build alongside. And I mean, it's great working with those kinds of founders because they get it. They just understand. They're not working with this ridiculous timeline and letting things that ultimately just look like shallow growth that are just those vanity metrics. They're not letting that lead them. And frankly, as we start to see more content, more businesses, more brands in every category because the good part about AI is it's never been easier to start a brand. The hard part about AI is also it's never been easier to start a brand. So it's also that much harder, that much noisier. It's only going to get worse. So this isn't about becoming more noisy. It's not about trying to capture more attention. It is about becoming much more strategic, much more focused, much more honed in on exactly who your audience is and how do you offer something to them? Again, not at a product level, at an emotional level, at a highest order benefit level. How do you offer something to them that they can't get from their other competitors? That's the real question you should be asking.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, and so what I'm getting from this conversation and what you're saying is like, I think this is like the foundational work, the deep work that is needed in order upon. And so if you're not clear on the audience, your unique differentiator point of view, then if you try to grow and get funding and like you being influenced by all these different people that have their own say perspective, then you're going to be easily swayed. That in return could derail you from what your original goal was when you started this brand. And that's kind of how friends can start like they've lost their compass, right? What they set out to do from the original founder and I kind of see this happening with Lululemon right now.

Robyn Young

Yes. I think that we tend to romanticize these well-known CEOs, brand builders as being so visionary, and what's so funny is that I don't love that because it makes it seem like they're superhuman in a way. I promise you all that they really have is a very clear idea—a very clear vision for exactly what that point of view is, what shapes those decisions, what makes that different, what is that competitive edge that they have? And then they have discipline in spades. I mean, they just have the discipline to say no to things that aren't in service of that. That's really all it is. The good news is you can hack that. You can do that. You can be the same as these people, but you have to take the time to do that deep thinking. 

My book is very much a guide in starting to think in that direction. And I find that, especially for a founder who already thinks they have an idea of what their point of view might be, that might be the single piece that they need to just bring it the rest of the way so that they can articulate it well. But I launched an accelerator this past year because what I found was people that were reading the book were like, I don't know if I have it or not, because again, it's not this tangible piece. 

Your point of view is strongest when you have clarity and conviction. So clarity means you can, not only can you speak to it well, but you can recognize it when other people are talking about your point of view out in the world. And you know how to leverage it to join in on that conversation. Those are sort of the key metrics we use for do you have clarity on it? On the conviction side, that is much more personal. It is really like, is this the hill you want to die on? Is this the thing that you would spend years talking about? Is this the thing that you feel you are uniquely capable to say? So it's a combination of those two things really. It's just, mostly it's just aligning your insides with your outsides, right? It's aligning like, what do you care most about whether it's at a category level or at a worldview level? And how do you align your business's actions and behaviors with those values, right? I don't think there's any reason that anybody couldn't do this, but some people just need more help and guidance. And that's the role that I love to play. I'm like the Sherpa. We are going to climb this mountain together. You're going to climb it with me though. I'm not climbing it on your behalf because that would be a lack of conviction. Like if you can't even climb the mountain with me, then you don't get to say it's your mountain. You feel me? It's not your climb unless you're there climbing it with me. But the thing is, I'm there because I'm like, I've got the tools. I've done this a million times. I've got the, you know, the wherewithal. I've already been at these different levels without that oxygen, so I know what that takes. I know how to keep you moving in that right direction. But for everybody, the path is a little different. So it needs that heavy customization. And frankly, I find that work so exciting. It lights me up inside. But for founders, it can feel a little bit like therapy.

Glynis Tao

Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. I know because building a brand identity can be tough and could change. So it's really hard to kind of stick with one. I think a lot of people have a tough time trying to just to choose one or like, do they have to necessarily, you know, choose one and stick with that one or can it change?

Robyn Young

Yeah. Great question. So one of the things that I do, let's say in the initial conversation that I have with a client, first of all, I will start by getting some insight into their world. Part one, it's just figuring out who are the players, how are they positioning themselves, what's going on within the space, what are the customers saying, what's the chatter happening? So I get that context. And then I'll start to shape some initial territories, which is what I call them. And this is always a question that comes up, like, what do I think is the most likely one to be successful? And I always laugh a little bit because I'm like, the one that's going to be successful is the one you're most willing to fight for. That's the honest truth because every single one of these ideas can be strong—can be successful. But the X factor there is your willingness to have the discipline to see it through. And that is so much harder. There's no formula for that. There's no tactics for that. It is just your willingness as the founder to keep pushing in that direction and to keep kind of flipping it over and turning it over until it finally snaps, right? Until it finally all clicks.

I find that though being a partner with founders who are on that journey, it's important to have somebody who helps you not get distracted or not see that shiny object and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, if we're going to go in that direction, it needs to fit this. How does it fit this? And if it doesn't fit this, is it that this needs to change because sometimes that's the case. You could be a brand that has a really strong positioning for a while. Olipop is a perfect example of that. They had a strong brand positioning for a very long time, but then Poppi came in with a different kind of positioning and completely killed the market. Olipop's still in the game, but I think they tried too hard to ride the wave of just being this sort of probiotic option within a world, a category that was all about chemical-based ingredients. And it didn't work for as long as they thought it might. And what they really needed to do was recognize that they needed to continue to evolve that positioning, that it wasn't always going to be exactly this. So it's not quite as simple as you create it once and then set it and forget it. You kind of have to be a steward for your brand permanently.

Glynis Tao

Wow, I could keep going. This has been such a thoughtful conversation about what it really takes to build a brand that people return to and advocate for over time. But before we wrap up, I'd love to ask you one final question. If someone listening wants to build a brand people truly recognize, trust and return to, what is the one principle you hope they remember from this conversation?

Robyn Young

I think the key is really you cannot be for everyone. Like of all the things that I could say right now, I think that's the one that is the hardest for people to grasp. It's the one thing that I really hope that people can kind of get through their mind is that in the moment, the moment when you start to lean into a psychographic mindset of a customer base that you want to attract, it can feel very uncomfortable because you know that you're dividing the room in a way. You're saying, okay, we're automatically not going to be for these people who relate to these things over here. But what it really does is if you can get past that discomfort, it opens up all of this potential for then how to treat your brand in a very distinct way that then makes it sticky, memorable, something that creates that loyalty that really speaks to people. Because I think what you kind of have to imagine is right now in pretty much every category, there's more room for you to find what's not already being served there. Again, not at a functional level, but at an emotional level, just like Liquid Death. Nobody was asking for another water brand. Nobody asked. If you asked 20 people, do we need another water brand? They would have said, no. For what purpose? But they recognized that within the category, there was just so much same-same. There were so many brands that were just playing right into the same audience that opening it up to a new mindset, a new audience is what made that opportunity killer, right? And now they've found additional categories to really lean into in that same spirit. And it's something that of course still takes some trial, but if you start out that strong and that strategic, I mean, it just creates the environment in which you can thrive and you can really call the shots and it's not about, you know, this platform is better than that platform. You are the platform and your social channels are just distribution channels for you. That's the goal. It just takes time.

Glynis Tao

Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Robyn Young

Yes. My site is the best place to get in touch if you are wanting to work with me. If you are somebody who is interested in doing this inside of an accelerator. If you're like, I need to develop my brand point of view, I need to understand my identity deeper than just that shallow aesthetic, I need to understand what really makes me unique, I would recommend my accelerator. So I run this four times per year. My next cohort will be May 1st. You have to apply for it. That said, I accept 10 founders per quarter. So I highly recommend anyone that's interested in going to that link. It's thisisyoung.co/accelerator. And if you're somebody who's like, I'm genuinely interested in this, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger just yet, I totally get it. I would say my book is a fantastic place to start. I've had people write in telling me they've already read it two, three times which is phenomenal to me because it means that this is a point of view that people just haven't really seen out there. It's just, it's not information that we've really seen or that's been available. that can, you can find the links to purchase the book at thisisyoung.co/book.

Glynis Tao

That book is called Build Your Brand Universe?

Robyn Young

Yes, it's also available on Amazon too, so if you want to search for it, yeah. Great.

Glynis Tao

And you're on social, obviously.

Robyn Young

Of course, yes. I'm @robynyoung.co. The channels I'm most active on are TikTok and Instagram. And then I also have a Substack. If you go to my website, you can actually find the link to join the Substack. It's called Yes and Newsletter. I write on it twice per month and I always include insights, inspiration and ideas for brands that want to take that very innovative approach and build their own brand ecosystem. So really useful free guides there for you if you want to know more about this.

Glynis Tao

Love it. Robyn, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your perspective on what it really takes to build a brand with depth and staying power.

Robyn Young

Thanks for having me.

Bootstrapping a Beauty Brand from Scratch with Carrie Sporer

by Glynis Tao | Mar 24, 2026 | Podcast

In this episode, Carrie Sporer, co-founder of SWAIR, shares how her frustration with constantly washing sweaty hair during marathon training led her to create showerless shampoo, a new category in haircare. She discusses her transition from a luxury fashion career into entrepreneurship, the importance of choosing the right co-founder, and how building a brand on a bootstrap budget requires focus, scrappiness, and resilience. Carrie emphasizes the challenges of educating consumers when introducing a new product, and how visual storytelling, community-driven marketing, and in-person demos have been key to growth. She also opens up about balancing motherhood and business, redefining “balance” over the long term, and why a founder’s personal story can be a powerful tool for connecting with customers. This episode is the perfect encouragement for aspiring entrepreneurs to take that first step toward pursuing their business venture. 

About Carrie Sporer

Carrie Sporer is the co-founder of SWAIR, the beauty brand behind Showerless Shampoo, created to help people go from sweaty to ready without a full wash. She brings a strong background in luxury, having served as vice president of sales and operations at Edie Parker and director of sales at Judith Leiber. The idea for SWAIR came during marathon training runs in New York City, where she and co-founder Meredith Krill grew frustrated with the need to constantly wash sweaty hair. After more than a year of searching for a better solution, they decided to create their own. Today, Carrie channels her entrepreneurial drive into building a brand from the ground up while balancing the realities of motherhood and resilience in business.

Contact info

Website: swairhair.com 

Instagram: @swairhair

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/carriesporer 

Takeaways

• Build your business around a real problem to ensure genuine demand.
• Start small and focused rather than launching with too many products at once.
• Educating your customer is just as important as selling your product.
• Show your product in action to build trust and drive conversions.
• Leverage your personal story to create authentic connections with your audience.
• Embrace flexibility and think about balance over the long term, not day to day.

Interview Themes

What does it really take to build a brand on a bootstrap budget?

Instead of relying on major funding, Carrie built SWAIR with limited resources by staying focused and making intentional decisions. For instance, she started SWAIR with just one hero product and outsourced logistics in the early phases of the company. Carrie emphasizes that businesses do not need a full product line or a large capital to begin with.

What are the challenges of creating a completely new product category?

Launching a “showerless shampoo” meant not only selling a product, but educating consumers on why it matters and how it works. While differentiation can spark interest, it also requires consistent, clear messaging to help people understand the value. Building awareness becomes just as important as building the product itself.

Why is showing your product more powerful than explaining it?

Since SWAIR is a haircare product that visibly transforms the appearance of customers’ hair, Carrie leans heavily on before-and-after demonstrations across social media and in-person activations for marketing. Seeing the product in action builds trust and drives conversion far more effectively than words alone, reinforcing the idea that visual proof can be a brand’s strongest marketing tool.

What does balance look like as a founder and a parent?

Carrie reframes balance as an entrepreneur and a parent as something that happens over time rather than day-to-day. Some weeks demand intense focus on work, while others require being fully present for family. Accepting this ebb and flow allows her to manage both roles more realistically without striving for perfect equilibrium.

Why is your personal story your greatest marketing asset?

Carrie believes that a founder’s “why” is often the strongest differentiator in a crowded market. By openly sharing her own frustrations and experiences, she creates a relatable connection with customers. In a world saturated with ads and polished content, authenticity and real stories help brands stand out and build lasting trust.

Chapters

04:47 The Birth of SWAIR

08:57 Creating a New Category in Hair Care

11:58 Building Awareness and Community Engagement

14:31 Bootstrapping a Beauty Brand

16:17 The Myth of Needing Huge Capital

20:21 Resilience in Entrepreneurship

24:15 Navigating Work-Life Balance as a Mompreneur

28:02 The Power of Personal Narratives

31:02 Using AI in Business

36:30 Encouragement for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

Transcript

Carrie Sporer

So it's finding your why and putting that problem out there in the world for other people to relate. I think when you can crystallize it to one pain point, phrase, or sentence about why you started your business, it really does become like this beacon that other people can see relate to. And then that's what turns people into customers and fans.

Glynis Tao

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

Today's guest is Carrie Sporer, co-founder of SWAIR, the brand behind Showerless Shampoo, a product designed to help people go from sweaty to ready without needing a full wash. Carrie brings a powerful mix of corporate leadership and entrepreneurial grit to the beauty industry. Before launching SWAIR, she built an impressive career in luxury accessories, serving as vice president of sales and operations at Edie Parker and director of sales at Judith Leiber, two iconic brands known for their craftsmanship and global presence. But the idea for SWAIR didn't come from a boardroom. It came during the long marathon training runs in New York City when Carrie and her co-founder, Meredith Krill, kept running into the same frustrating problem: sweaty hair meant another full wash. After more than a decade of searching for a better solution and finding none, they decided to create the product they wished existed. 

In today's conversation, we talk about what it takes to build a beauty brand on a bootstrap budget, the realities of being a mom and a founder, the resilience required to navigate professional setbacks, and why your personal story might be the most powerful asset you have as an entrepreneur.

Welcome, Carrie. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Carrie Sporer

Thank you so much for having me and I'm glad to finally have a conversation with you. I feel like I've been following along your journey and the podcast and the content you put out into the world. So it's fun to be on the other side of it.

Glynis Tao

That's amazing. So glad to have you here. Carrie, let's start at the beginning. You built a successful career in luxury accessories at brands like Edie Parker and Judith Leiber. What inspired you to leave that world and start a beauty company?

Carrie Sporer

So when you look back, everything feels like it happened for a reason and you were on a certain path, but at the time it definitely felt much more haphazard. And when I was working for Edie Parker, which was my last sort of in-house job, I was traveling a lot. And with my first son, my first day back after a three month maternity leave involved a plane to Paris. So I just felt like the obligations of that job at the time did not match my capacities and wants and needs. So I decided that I was going to start consulting. I feel like it was the beginning of the gig economy back around… I want to say 2016 was when I started consulting. So about exactly a decade ago, we were having a lot of consultants come in and work with the brand and I was always really jealous being like, I want to be that person that kind of comes in, in charge of their own schedule, gets to work on with a lot of amazing brands. So I was consulting for a few years and learning a lot from other female founders that you don't necessarily have to have school expertise in the company that you end up founding. And I had this idea with my co-founder, Meredith, or at the time it was a frustration of having sweaty hair after every marathon training run. We wished that there was a magic product that could end that frustration and kind of put together what I had learned from these female founders that were starting small businesses and my own frustration figuring out how maybe I could be a founder as well and started contacting labs to see if anybody could help me.

Glynis Tao

So the idea for SWAIR came from a very real problem you experienced while training for the New York City Marathon. Can you tell us about that moment when you realized why doesn't this product exist yet?

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, that was definitely a journey. I was running most days of the week, and when I was running, I was getting sweaty enough, especially training for a fall marathon. You do a lot of your longest runs through the summer. So doing a 15, 18, 20 mile run in New York City with the heat and humidity in August, definitely left me having to wash my hair every time I ran and one just wreaking havoc on my hair and scalp, but it was just so time consuming. If you really wanted to quote unquote do your hair afterwards, you know, it may take five minutes to wash in the shower, but then it's like a 30 minute process after that to dry it and style it. So I tried everything on the market. I tried quick dry products. They were never what they claimed to be. I tried every type of dry shampoo under the sun and they often left my hair looking worse than how I started. And many of them were very flawed in terms of the ingredient list and the buildup they're leaving on your hair and scalp causing you to break out. So it was really like nothing was working. And I knew that so many other women were having the same pain point, whether they were runners, whether they had other ways that they were working out, or if they were just busy women that sweat a lot and needed help getting on with their day. So yeah, I tried everything. It wasn't like I didn't try and solve the problem in other ways.

Glynis Tao

I'm sure you did. And I'd like to get more into the product later and you telling us about the product that you came up with. But you met your co-founder, Meredith Krill, while training for that marathon. What made you two decide that you were the right team to bring this idea to life?

Carrie Sporer

So I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of different people about co-founders. I think there's no special sauce. I hear people say, don't work with a friend, don't work with a stranger, don't work with a spouse. I've seen every iteration of it, not personally, but from other founders that I know. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I think you know, it is a marriage in a sense. I joke that I have a husband as well as a wife with Meredith because, you know, our relationship is that close. But I knew that we'd be able to work together because we were both just very honest people and we're both not easily affected. If she tells me to chill out on a decision that I want to make, I'm not offended and I'm more curious about how we can get to the right solution and she's the same. And then one thing that I recommend to people, whether you're getting into business with a stranger or a friend, was that we put together a partnership agreement with a very expensive lawyer, probably more expensive than we should have, but we wanted to make sure that we were doing it right. And it really forced us to answer a lot of difficult questions about what would happen if one of us wanted out of the business, if one of us, for whatever reason, was not capable of staying in the business, if one of us, you know, God forbid, medically was unable to continue with the business. So we have the framework for all of that. And before we turned on our Shopify site, you know, we had the answers to a lot of the most complicated things that founder teams face. And I think that takes a load off just knowing what the worst case scenarios are.

Glynis Tao

That's great actually that you have put all those agreements in place prior to jumping into the business because oftentimes I find, you know, even during the best of times, sometimes, you know, we have different ideas, point of views and we don't want that to affect the friendship. And for me, if I were to ever partner with a friend, I'd always put the friendship before the business. If it were to harm our relationship, I'd feel like it's better to go our separate ways at that time, but it's good that you had that already in place in case anything happens. 

Let's talk about you creating a new category with your product. SWAIR is positioned as a showerless shampoo, which is different from traditional dry shampoo. How did you approach creating an entirely new category in the hair care market?

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, starting a new category is definitely a blessing and a curse. You have built-in product differentiation where you are unique and a lot of people get excited about it, but there's also a big hill to climb in terms of having people understand what you're doing, and then some of the really basic things, and this really falls into your world, Glynis, with SEO. We consider ourselves a dry shampoo alternative and dry shampoo, in terms of SEO, in terms of page strategies, is really expensive to go up against. So it's creating this category, being known for being different, and then how are you gonna fight against the incumbents where it can be really, really expensive. So we've just tried to be very organic in our approach and have genuine fans that have voices in the communities that our product tends to fit best, like fitness communities, and really relying on fitness influencers or adjacent brands to really, you know, sing our praises and let people know that we exist. Cause it is much more challenging than I thought. I felt like people would hear dry shampoo alternative and come flocking to it. But because it does require a bit of education, it's probably our number one struggle still five years later is how are we effectively and concisely communicating why we're different than everything else on the shelf.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, so this leads me to the next question. When you're introducing something new to that consumer that doesn't fully understand yet, how do you communicate the values of your product so that people instantly get it?

Carrie Sporer

So I think that we're very lucky at SWAIR that our product is about convenience and transforming your hair, so we are able to communicate very visually how our product works. I was participating in a pitch contest panel providing feedback to people that are newer at pitching than I am. I don't want to say I'm some sort of expert, but I'm a bit experienced in pitching and the feedback I kept giving people was any way you can show your product in action will put you head and shoulders above somebody else who's just talking about it. So I'm very grateful that our product does lend itself well to visual mediums. That is how so many people are getting information about new products, particularly on Instagram and TikTok. So every ad that we do and almost every piece of content we put out is just before and after, before and after. And we are just drumming that message in and showing it a little bit differently in different settings, different hair types, different ages of women, different ethnicities of women. But yeah, it's just show and repeat.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, I can imagine. So many founders worry about competition, but when you're creating a new category, the challenge is often education. What strategies have helped you build awareness around SWAIR?

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, I think we have a few different strategies that have worked really well. As I mentioned, it's really seeing the product in action that is so helpful. So we've done a lot of kind of boots on the ground being based here in New York City. There is no shortage of fitness studios. So we're often popping up and doing demonstrations after fitness classes where women can try the product themselves without doing a full commitment to purchasing it. So they can try it out and it has been really great for us. Where we're unable to do that in person, having other members of our community and tell. We're very lucky that our community does have a lot of fitness instructors, so they'll show and tell about the product after their classes or even just having other people show it online.

Glynis Tao

So your product is very much a need to try it out, you know, product. So, I mean, I'm sure you've tried this, maybe giving out samples or something or waiting at the finish line of the marathon, giving out some samples to people to try it there right on the spot.

Carrie Sporer

Mm-hmm. Yes, we've gone to more of a demo model than a giveaway model. It's really hard to track the ROI of just giving product away. And we've found, if I'm speaking freely, we found that when we give the product away, people don't appreciate it as much. And even our smallest size now, which is like a travel size two ounce, it lasts most customers about two to three months and it costs us several dollars to make that size. So unless we kind of scale down to something that's almost more like a perfume sprayer, there's still really an expense in us giving that away. And we find that when people try it and love it, just that one time experience, that gets them more to then immediately go on and purchase. The amount of times we've done demos and somebody in front of me is like checking out on our website or on Amazon. Like that's amazing. That is like the best conversion that can happen. So, we have tried it, but we found that demos are just one less expensive and two really creates that urge a little bit more. If they don't have it in their hand immediately, they're more incentivized to then go purchase it.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, okay. That’s great!

Carrie Sporer

But that was definitely trial and error. I've given away a fair share of products in my day.

Glynis Tao

I'm sure. So how long have you been in business now?

Carrie Sporer

We've been doing this for five years, which is crazy.

Glynis Tao

Okay, and when you started the business, it was on a bootstrap budget, is that correct?

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, we're still bootstrapped. We've had two small angel investments, but combined, they’re still only five figures. So I still consider us bootstrapped because we haven't had any major investments.

Glynis Tao

So you built SWAIR on a bootstrap budget. What are some of the smartest decisions you made early on that helped you grow without outside funding?

Carrie Sporer

So one decision that I made that is probably a little bit controversial is that we started with a third-party logistics warehouse from day one. And part of that is being in Manhattan where I just don't have the space in my apartment and Meredith does not have the space in her apartment to keep a lot of product. But I felt that if we don't have money to bring on people to work on other things, then I was gonna outsource the thing that did not require a ton of brain power, the packing and the shipping, so that I could really focus on building the brand and not have to take several hours a day out of that. So that was kind of one choice that we made immediately that I think some people might disagree with, but it's worked for us. 

A lot of it was a lot of negotiating really good rates to get started with that, which we were very lucky, but I really wanted to focus on brand building activities since I couldn't pay anybody else to do those.

Glynis Tao

For founders listening who feel like they need huge capital to launch a beauty brand, what's one myth that you like to challenge?

Carrie Sporer

So I think that to start a beauty brand, a lot of people think about a full suite of products. We started with one product in two sizes. We could have even started with one product in one size if we wanted, but I think that there are so many benefits, especially if you're like myself and Meredith, where you're not coming from the beauty industry and you're learning as you're building. There's so many advantages to starting narrow. You have just a lot less costs in general, of course, involving manufacturing if you're just making one thing. But also you're only marketing one thing, you're only shipping one thing. There's a lot of savings in just starting with one product.

So I would definitely encourage people who wanted to start something, starting really, really focused. And you know, it may not be one product, but you certainly don't need a whole collection. I know that can be a little bit challenging with color cosmetics, because you do need a bit more of a range, but finding products that work for a wide variety of customers and being able to focus is definitely a really great cost savings.

Glynis Tao

So just like with SWAIR, you launched with one hero product, right? And have you expanded?

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, we have three products now, plus a really adorable shower cap as a cute little add-on. And for us, we do want to grow beyond the three products, but we never want to be the brand that's putting out a new collection every season and that's following trends with ingredients. Everything that we have now is really different than anything else a customer has in their bathroom and we really want to focus on differentiated products. So we would love to be like six to eight really focused, amazing groundbreaking products rather than having a bunch of things.

Glynis Tao

Would you be able to just tell us quickly about what's in the actual shampoo itself? Because you said it's made with natural ingredients as opposed to dry shampoos, which I've seen contain a lot of chemicals and that's why I stayed away from it. Maybe you could tell our audience what makes your shampoo different.

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, so the main difference is just how it works. So rather than a dry shampoo where you're spraying either alcohol or powder on your scalp, neither of which are great things to put on your scalp, ours is the consistency of water. So you spray it on and then you actually towel dry it out and that process removes the dirt and the sweat. So it's a different behavior and you're actually removing the dirt instead of just masking it with other ingredients. 

We launched in 2020. We always said if it couldn't be a clean formula, like why bother at that point? Because I feel like most products within the last five to 10 years have really focused on clean ingredients. So we made sure that we omitted any endocrine disruptors. So there's no phthalates, there's no sulfates, which there's a little bit of controversy if those are too harsh for the hair. It's gluten-free, it's formaldehyde-free, it's silicone-free. So really a lot of the biggest problematic ingredients we've omitted.

Glynis Tao

Looking back, were there any scrappy or unconventional marketing strategies that ended up working surprisingly well?

Carrie Sporer

Goodness, that's a great question. I think, you know, we've done quite a bit of like man on the street style demoing, or we'll just kind of know where, like in Central Park or Riverside Park where a lot of people tend to be running or there's often like outdoor fitness classes happening. You know, making sure that we're just kind of in the right place at the right time or knowing where a certain run club ends their runs. So we did kind of a lot of show up and ask forgiveness not permission type stuff

Glynis Tao

Guerilla marketing. Love it. Entrepreneurship often comes with setbacks that no one sees in public. Can you share a moment in your journey that really tested your resilience?

Carrie Sporer

Oh my goodness, there are so many of those stories. I guess I'll just say before going into, like, my probably most painful example, like, having a co-founder when you go through those moments, I might have quit like 10 times by now if I didn't have somebody to kind of hold hands with through these situations. I feel like there's a good push and pull when one of us is like, my God, and the other one's like, this is not something we can't get through. 

But our brand almost ended before it began because of our first production run, which happened during the end of COVID. We were supposed to ship everything to our warehouse and two days prior, and we had worked with a PR firm to make sure that we were getting launch day press. Two days prior to shipping to our warehouse, the lab called us and said that there was a contamination and they needed to dispose of 5,000 of our 6,000 bottles from our initial order. And I'm glad I can laugh at this now because at the time it was anything but laughter. It was really challenging because we already were more delayed than we wanted to be because our bottles and sprayers were delayed because of COVID because a lot of surface cleaners and other types of cleaning products were taking up the capacity of the bottle and sprayer manufacturers. And because we're a tiny customer placing our first order, going against companies that are placing hundreds of thousands of bottles, we kind of got pushed to the back of the line. So we ended up buying stock bottles, which we still use a version of those today with some modifications. So we had to kind of change our packaging, buy new labels. Luckily, the lab took financial responsibility for the contamination and reimbursed us for anything new that we had to buy. But it was really, really painful. And we had to push back our launch by about six weeks, even with everybody moving mountains to make things happen as quick as possible.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, that sounds stressful.

Carrie Sporer

Normally, you communicate with the lab via email, and then when your phone rings from them right before launch, like your heart drops.

Glynis Tao

Exactly.

Carrie Sporer

It's like my kids at school. Like the email is okay. When school calls…

Glynis Tao

That’s right, that’s right. How did your previous career in luxury retail prepare you for the realities of building your own brand?

Carrie Sporer

I think probably the most important thing that I brought with me is just the mindset that everything is figure outable. In working in luxury accessories with the top stores in the world. A lot of my clients were like Harrods and Bergdorf Goodman and Barney’s when it existed. And they would say, we love this product and we want to purchase thousands of units of it, but you're going to have to change this thing about it. You know, like we want all of the black leather to be this special brown leather to match our sofas in our handbag department. Like we would get the craziest requests and it was learning how to make those things happen and go the extra mile that, being now an entrepreneur and having to kind of figure out a lot of random things that are seemingly impossible at first glance, that mindset has probably been the best thing to bring with me. Of course, there's some retail basics and terminology that I understood from my past career, but beauty does really operate very differently than leather goods. So there was also some unlearning as well. But especially in terms of reading sale sheets and things like that, there were some things that transferred over, which was great.

Glynis Tao

Okay, so let's go and move over to talking about being a mompreneur. So you're building a business while raising two boys, is that right? 

Carrie Sporer

Yeah.

Glynis Tao

How old are they? 

Carrie Sporer

Seven and nine.

Glynis Tao

Seven and nine. How has becoming a founder changed your perspective on work and balance?

Carrie Sporer

So one thing that I tell people about being an entrepreneur and a mompreneur is you're either completely flexible or completely inflexible because if something is on your calendar and you are the only person that has the capability to do that for your company, you have to do it. But on the flip side, if your day is a little bit more flexible and a kid is homesick from school, there's things like that that you can have more flexibility. 

So I just find myself living on two polar ends of the spectrum that things are either completely inflexible and if something in life happens, I'm calling my husband, calling a babysitter to help, or there are the times where I do have the flexibility to move things around. It's living between those two poles that I find sometimes a little dizzying, but I'm glad for the flexibility where I have it. And I think, you know, like most people that are parents and working, whether it's for themselves or for someone else, you know, down the road, you're never going to look back and say, I wish I worked more. So bringing that mindset as well that there's things that have to be done that I will not sleep until certain things are crossed off the list based on deadlines. But really just trying to prioritize my family. And I know that my boys think it's so cool that I have my own business and they're really cute about it, but making sure that it can be all-consuming, so making sure I take breaks.

Glynis Tao

Mm-hmm. Because I've had a lot of other mompreneurs on the podcast as well, and I'm also a mom as well to a 10-year-old boy, and yeah. Things can really get very hectic at times and having to juggle a lot of things. I feel it's more of a juggling act than a balancing act. It's hard to really balance things when there's just so much going on and what you do is you do the best you can. And so the term balance gets used a lot, it doesn't often reflect reality. What does balance actually look like in your life right now? Or do you use another word?

Carrie Sporer

Well, I think of balance more over the long term than the short term because I think, you know, we've all been up against work deadlines where you're working 12, 15 hour days, and then there's like two weeks ago, my son was sick all week and was home with me all week. And I had a lot of deep work that I wanted to get done and it just wasn't gonna happen. So I kind of think more rather than like the day to day or the week to week, almost looking at balance, like over the course of a year where I know that there's gonna be weeks at a time where I'm doing really focused on work and then weeks at a time that I'm really focused on family. And I think that that kind of helps get me through the ups and the downs and lets me really vacation or be present when my kids need me because I know, three, four weeks ahead, I'm going to be glued to my laptop, grinding something out, working on a big project. So I try to give it wider boundaries. And that's been really helpful for my mental health.

Glynis Tao

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just having that longer range perspective on things, I find that helps as well. And also I think, you know, I can be a workaholic and keep working, but to set these more healthy boundaries… After my son was born, I was thinking in my head that, you know, he's only going to be this little. He's not going to stay this small forever. Right. So I really just wanted to enjoy this time with him as well to watch him grow up and not feel like I missed out on his childhood. 

Carrie Sporer

I totally relate.

Glynis Tao

You said that personal narratives can be a founder's superpower. How did your own story shape the SWAIR brand?

Carrie Sporer

I'll take a step back first. Meredith and I actually met in 2007 training for the marathon that year. There's been a lot of marathons and races and other things that have happened fitness-wise and then of course just a bunch of life in the almost 20 years now since we've been friends. And then of course the business didn't start until much later in that friendship. But now, even that we're five years in, the question that we always get is why did you start? I know we talked about product categories and differentiation, but your why is your biggest differentiator. And with seven billion humans on this planet, you're not going to be the only one. 

I'm sure we've both come across some really esoteric brands that are very, very niche. I was listening to something recently on how someone was talking about a very specific type of fishing a certain fish. It was like the narrowest scope that you can imagine, but the fact that that could still be a full-fledged business because there are so many people that have that very, seems to me, narrow hobby. 

So it's finding your why and putting that problem out there in the world for other people to relate to. We're constantly updating our social media, updating copy on our website, on our Amazon site. And what really converts people from people just looking to being customers and then being fans of the brand is hearing our story about how we just hate it to wash our hair, which sounds kind of silly, but other women who get sweaty are like, I get it. And I have never once explained our product to someone that was like, I don't know what you're talking about, on some level. Anyone with hair can relate to the fact that it gets sweaty, that it feels inconvenient, that washing your hair can be too much of a good thing. So whatever your version is of sweaty hair that you didn't want to wash, I think when you can crystallize it to one pain point, phrase, or sentence about why you started your business, it really does become like this beacon that other people can see relate to. And then that's what turns people into customers and fans.

Glynis Tao

Many founders struggle with putting themselves out there publicly or they are afraid to show up on camera, myself included. Why do you think sharing your personal story can be such a powerful marketing tool? I mean, you touched upon it, but just more of like how it's worked for you and how you think that could work for others as well.

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, I think that seeing real people telling real stories in a world where now so much is like, forget even a model, it's like AI, it literally is not real. I think having a founder talk about their story really cuts through a lot of the BS that's out there. People are bombarded with, you probably know these statistics better than I do, but you know the thousands and thousands of ads in some way or form every day. And it really is a way to kind of cut through the rest of the noise out there. 

I put all kinds of ads on Facebook and Instagram, and when it's me demoing the product or talking about the product, those are the ads that make money. Again, like I'm scrolling Instagram and I see my face pop up as part of an ad. Like it's not the greatest part of my day. I cringe, but people are definitely connecting with it and they like seeing a real woman. shoot them on an iPhone, often like in my kid's bathroom because that just tends to be the one with the best natural light. And it's made our brand like hundreds of thousands of dollars. So I mean, when there's sales behind it, we start believing, right?

Glynis Tao

Yeah. So just put yourself out there.

Carrie Sporer

I would say one thing that's been really helpful, and I'm sure like for most founders, AI and like particularly ChatGPT, Klaus, Gemini, like have been so transformative for small businesses in the last year in particular. Sometimes when you're the founder, it's hard to think about what you want to say and really just asking ChatGPT for some prompts, like this is roughly what I wanna talk about, or this is what I'm having trouble communicating. And when ChatGPT just spits it out, and it gives me the exact script and the exact captions to put on, whether it's YouTube or Instagram, any kind of media, having the directive makes it so much easier. Because sometimes we're just like, okay, what am I gonna post today? I can say this, I can say that. Letting AI do its AI thing about exactly what you should say. It's not going to get it right all the time, but it's really keeping us consistent because it's just popping out directions. And with decision fatigue, it's really nice for someone to tell me what to do, even if it's AI.

Glynis Tao

There's nothing wrong with using AI for your business. It sounds like you use it for yours in helping you generate social media captions. Anything else you use AI for?

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, so we definitely mostly, I would say, use it for helping with social media ideas. I will use it to help put individual product shots in different settings, but I don't feel comfortable using any videos or before-after images with an AI generated human. I'm not comfortable with that. Anything you see with a human from SWAIR is a real human, but we will use, you know, like put this on a pink bathroom vanity. Like I'll definitely use image generation tools for that.

I did walk away from having a third party run our Google Ads. So I'm doing that all by myself now, but I put in the analytics once a week to ChatGPT and I asked it to analyze and make suggestions and it's been really amazing and helping us scale and manage Google. So any data analytics or it's really, really great for, and then sometimes just checking things like on our website or on our Amazon and just saying, you know, read this webpage, pop in the link, and then whatever I'm looking for, like, are there any quick changes we can make to improve conversion? Or can you spell check this quickly? Like, I use it all the time.

Glynis Tao

It's really good at just fine tuning things and refining copy that if you're not a professional writer or copywriter, it can kind of help you if you feed in your own words, right? To begin with, or help me tweak this, you know, so that makes it sound more appealing to my audience or target market. I find that's great. Yeah.

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, and one thing that I do that's really specific to you, Glynis, is I feel like I mentioned it, that you were our inspiration for finally starting a blog five years into the business. I was listening to something on the podcast, and you always talk about the benefits of blogs for SEO. I don't want AI to write the entire blog. So what I do is I ask AI to ask me questions to make the blog post and that's really helpful as well. And then after I write the blog post, I put it back in and make sure that there's not any additional places that we can put keywords. I've written this blog now, you know, make it more SEO friendly.

Glynis Tao

So you've written it from your point of view with your own expertise, you know, and written in your voice and you just ask AI to sort of tighten it up and put in those relevant keywords in there just to polish it and yeah, make it ready. That's great and thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I remember you mentioning that, yeah, you started your blog because of the podcast or an episode you heard on the podcast. So I'm really glad that helped inspire you with it. 

So before we wrap up, for someone listening today who has an idea but hasn't taken the leap yet, what would you say to encourage them to start?

Carrie Sporer

So I think a lot of people feel like starting a business is binary. Like they're either not starting the business or they're starting the business. And when we had the idea for SWAIR, we actually didn't even know if the idea of a showerless shampoo product was possible. And I was not going to start. It was about finding this problem solving product. And it wasn't about, I want to start a hair care brand. I wasn't going to start it if I couldn't find this product to work. 

So I put together a brief about the product that I was hoping to make—what I wanted it to look like, what I wanted it to smell like, what I wanted the experience to be. It certainly was not completely flushed out. I don't have a chemistry background. A lot of it was just in layman's terms of like this is the product that's missing for a lot of women and I just started calling different labs and shopping around my brief to see if anybody even reacted or thought that it was something that they could do. And we got very mixed reactions depending on who we spoke to. 

So I think just taking that first step of figuring out how are you going to make your product? Can you make your product? It doesn't have to be, tomorrow I'm starting my business. There's a lot of gray area that you can live in and gather information and start to think about your plan. So I think just baby steps is all that you really need and that will kind of help push you in one way or the other, but just do it. Like if you're thinking about it, just take that first baby step. There's literally no harm. If you find out you can't make what you want to make, you can't do what you want to do, you haven't failed. You've just dipped your toe in the water and you'll be glad you did.

Glynis Tao

Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Carrie Sporer

carrie@swairhair.com. Very easy to email. We're swairhair.com and @swairhair on all of the socials. So we are not hiding, we're easy to find. Myself or my co-founder still look at all of the DMs, so if that's easier than email, you can slide on in.

Glynis Tao

Carrie, thank you so much for sharing your story and the journey behind building SWAIR with us today.

Carrie Sporer

Thank you, this was really fun!

Glynis Tao

Yes, it really was. I always love hearing founder stories and that's one of the biggest reasons why I do this podcast is for people to just share their stories with others. It sort of feels like, you know, they're perhaps alone out there and thing is there's other founders who are right in the same boat. 

Carrie Sporer

Yeah.

Glynis Tao

And that's the reason why I love doing this. So thank you so much.

Carrie Sporer

Yeah, thank you.

The Power of Style for Personal Branding with Jenni Lee

by Glynis Tao | Mar 17, 2026 | Podcast

In this episode, fashion stylist and image consultant Jenni Lee shares how intentional styling can be a powerful tool for personal branding, visual communication, and professional growth. Drawing on more than 20 years of experience working with celebrities and major publications, she explains how clothing acts as a visual language that shapes first impressions and opens opportunities. Jenni discusses her philosophy of “more styling, less shopping,” encouraging people to make better use of the clothes they already own while building wardrobes that align with their personal brand and future aspirations. She also reflects on her pivot during the pandemic from celebrity styling to helping female entrepreneurs and founders use style to express authority, creativity, and authenticity in their businesses.

About Jenni Lee

Jenni Lee is a fashion stylist and image consultant with more than 20 years of experience shaping the visual narratives of celebrities, artists, and public figures. Her work has appeared in major publications including Harper’s Bazaar, Rolling Stone, People, and InStyle, and she has styled notable names such as Lauryn Hill and Scarlett Johansson. When the pandemic paused the entertainment industry, she pivoted her focus toward helping real women, such as female entrepreneurs and founders, use style as a tool for confidence, creativity, and personal branding. Today, she leads Style Club, a membership community built around her philosophy of “more styling, less shopping,” where she teaches ambitious women how to transform their existing wardrobes into powerful expressions of identity and authority.

Contact info

Website: http://jennileestylist.consulting 

Portfolio: jennileestylist.com 

Instagram: @jennileestylist 

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/jennileestylist

Takeaways

• Style is a visual first impression of your personal brand
• Dressing aspirationally can shift your mindset and perception
• Invest in high-quality clothing that lasts
• Regular closet reviews help keep your wardrobe aligned with your goals
• Think of styling as a form of self-care

Interview Themes

Why is style a powerful language tool?

Jenni explains that clothing communicates powerful messages before we even say a single word. A doctor’s coat or a bus driver’s uniform immediately signals trust and authority just like how our outfits suggest our professionalism, credibility, and identity. Style is a visual language that shapes how others perceive us. By dressing with intention, you can guide the narrative others form about you.

How can a wardrobe be used as a business asset?

Clothing reflects your personal branding and messaging. Entrepreneurs and founders alike can talk about their value, but a strong visual identity and presence can amplify that message. Style and brand messaging that is aligned creates a more cohesive public image.

Why is it important to dress for a role that you aspire to have?

Clothing can help people step out of their comfort zone and into the next version of themselves. By dressing aspirationally, people will begin to embody that desired identity. This shift can change how people are perceived while boosting confidence.

How can you start aligning your wardrobe with your personal brand?

Identify your brand message and the impression you want to leave on others. Using those ideas as a foundation, review the current state of your closet and identify pieces that support the story you want to tell. Look to film characters, public figures, etc. for style inspiration.

What does the philosophy “more styling, less shopping” mean?

After years of helping clients sort through overflowing closets, Jenni realized that most people don’t actually need more clothing and instead need to discover better ways to wear what they already own. Maximizing existing pieces through thoughtful styling is miles better than constantly purchasing clothes that often go unworn. 

Chapters

00:00 Jenni Lee and her philosophy of more styling, less shopping

03:15 Jenni's journey from film school to celebrity stylist

06:07 Style as a powerful language tool

07:55 Why a wardrobe is a valuable business asset

10:06 Choosing outfits that reflect authority and expertise

12:16 Evaluating your closet through a brand lens

14:09 Jenni’s styling process with clients

15:38 The inspiration behind more styling, less shopping

16:45 Impact of styling existing wardrobe on confidence and value

23:28 Building the Style Club community and its purpose

24:52 Success story: wardrobe transformation for a European work trip

29:27 First steps to using wardrobe as a personal brand tool

Transcript

Jenni Lee

What I like to do is start with what you have. My whole philosophy is more styling, less shopping. So I really want to know what we're working with and whether we're doing this over Zoom or if you're in the New York City tri-state area, I come over and we really do go through your closet and really every single piece, you know, we go through, we figure out does this work for the version that you want to be? How can I help you make more outfits with this? Is this tired and worn out and not worth keeping because it was something you bought 10 years ago and it's outdated. Let's get rid of it because I do feel like most people have too much clothes in their closet and it creates really intense decision fatigue and overwhelm. And you're not getting the most out of your clothes because you can't really manage what's in there because there is too much.

Glynis Tao

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

Today's guest is someone who truly understands the power of image and how the way we present ourselves can shape the opportunities that come our way. Jenni Lee is a fashion stylist and image consultant with more than 20 years of experience, working with some of the biggest names in entertainment, including Lauryn Hill and Scarlett Johansson. Her work has been featured in publications like Harper's Bazaar, Rolling Stone, People, and InStyle, and she has spent decades helping shape the visual narratives of artists, celebrities, and public figures. When the pandemic brought the entertainment industry to a halt, Jenni Lee didn't just wait for things to go back to normal. She used that momentum to reimagine her work and shift her focus towards something more personal: helping real women and founders build wardrobes that communicate confidence, authority, and intention. 

Today, she leads Style Club, a membership community built around her philosophy of more styling, less shopping, where she teaches ambitious women how to stop buying more clothes and start using their wardrobe as a powerful tool for personal branding and self-expression. 

In this conversation, we're here to talk about why a wardrobe is actually one of the most underused assets in your business, what celebrity styling can teach founders about building authority and how intentional style can help you step into the next version of yourself. 

Welcome Jenni. It's so nice to have you here on the podcast.

Jenni Lee

Thank you so much for having me. I love having these conversations.

Glynis Tao

Absolutely. You've styled icons like Lauryn Hill and Scarlett Johansson, which is an incredible career path. Can you take us back to the beginning of your journey into fashion styling? What first drew you to styling as a profession and how did you land those early opportunities in the entertainment industry?

Jenni Lee

Yeah, when I started, I didn't even know what a fashion stylist was. I just was someone with a strong personal style. And I knew I wanted to work in an aspect where I was able to do storytelling. So I wanted to be a filmmaker. And I went to film school and I dropped out of film school and moved to New York and just started working on movies in every department, meaning everything from camera to art department. And then I tried wardrobe and everything clicked. Every decision I made was the right decision and the producers and costume designers that I was assisting working with saw that and believed in me and gave me opportunities. And from there it just expanded because I met more costume designers and one of them was a fashion stylist and she really taught me about styling and fashion and just my innate sense of style, which all kind of stemmed from my relationship with my grandmother who really used clothes as a way to make her day. She said making her look would make her day. And that creativity, I just sponged all of it. And she taught me at a thrift store shop and like shop for designer clothes that way and it really just took me on my path. And those first opportunities just came, you know, really from what I was wearing and how I expressed myself and people seeing that.

Glynis Tao

After working at such a high level in celebrity styling, what did that experience teach you about the relationship between image, identity, and influence?

Jenni Lee

I think the components are not only are you dressing for yourself and how you need to feel comfortable in that day, but it’s really thinking about your audience. And this again stems from that filmmaking experience of storytelling. So if you put yourself as the main character of your movie, of your television show, and each day is an episode and there's scenes in that day and there's locations that you're going to shoot on and there's other characters crossing paths with, what do you want them to think about you and just understanding that how you dress for the day is a language, style is language. And what do you want them to interpret very quickly? And how do you want them to react to you and how you can really manipulate the narrative of your day by what you're wearing? 

And the other thing is, all of us, no matter how famous someone is, everybody has their own personal insecurities, whether that's emotional, mental, intellectual, or body. And you can use your clothes as a way to help strengthen you and overcome those things.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, so you often say that style is language. What do you mean by that and why do so many professionals underestimate the power of what they wear?

Jenni Lee

I think that, you know, think of it this way. If you go to the doctor, you're trusting the doctor because they are wearing a doctor's outfit. You get on the bus and trust that that person can drive the bus because they're wearing a uniform. So many subconscious things we do because we believe in the outfit that somebody is wearing. And you can use that same sort of language to have someone understand something about you so quickly. And I tell a lot of my younger clients who are, you know, stepping into new careers, look at how your bosses dress and how can you replicate the way they dress, but your own personal spin on it? Dress for the next level. Don't be invisible. Don't be so comfortable. Push yourself a little bit further so you can be, so that those around you who can give you opportunities can see you in the position of the opportunity that they're considering you for.

Glynis Tao

So do you work with a lot of founders and entrepreneurs or professionals and sort of like what type of businesses or niche are they in?

Jenni Lee

I think that the main connection between all the women that I work with is that there is an element of creativity and ambition because I do work with women from all different fields; from film directors and production designers to high level executives to financial coaches, spiritual coaches. I work with artists, I work with academics. So it really does cross zigzag all across industries, the type of women that I work with.

Glynis Tao

Many entrepreneurs focus heavily on marketing, messaging, content strategy, and overlook their personal presentation. Why do you believe a wardrobe is actually a business asset?

Jenni Lee

I think that this was personally when the pandemic happened and I realized that I was going to pivot into personal styling and I, being a very introverted, behind-the-scenes person, understood I have to start promoting myself on Instagram and what is that going to look like? Who am I talking to? And I was looking at all these other entrepreneurs, mine entrepreneurs, and everyone was just in yoga pants and I couldn't wrap my head around the disconnect between what they're selling, whatever industry or brand it was, and how little consideration they took into their personal appearance. And I just saw a big gaping hole of, you know, we're scrolling endlessly. And if you want to have someone stop, you need to have a full picture there that is polished and together and enticing. Not just the words that you're yelling out at people, but make the whole image work to your advantage is just such an overlooked tool in that toolbox of branding.

Glynis Tao

And what are some common mistakes that entrepreneurs make when it comes to building a wardrobe that aligns with their brand?

Jenni Lee

One of the things that… it's twofold. There's one mistake of always wearing your brand colors, which actually means you're blending in with your fonts and your background and things like that. Your brand color should be an accent that you can tie through everything, if you feel that your brand colors are that necessary. I don't dress in a rainbow of colors. I don't dress in my brand colors.

I think the other side is never considering if what you are wearing gels with and is cohesive with your brand color. So then you're making a reel cover or an Instagram post and you're wearing something that just looks jarring or it doesn't look aesthetically pleasing with the text and the caption and all of those things that you have to do. I think really just being considerate about your audience and what you're wearing and where it is going on any given day.

Glynis Tao

You appear to be quite colourful and like I've seen what your feed looks like and what you're wearing today is nice. How did you choose your outfit that you're gonna wear today?

Jenni Lee

For me personally, I'm like, I just moved into this new office. I don't have anything on my walls. It's white background. I know that I want to pop from my background. I don't want to blend in. So I have a very defined color. You can see my body and that I'm in front of something. I'm not blending. Same as you, you're wearing black and I can see you not blending from the wall and just having a foreground and a background. And this is all that filmmaking stuff that is just embedded into me. And I knew I wanted to be comfortable. I'm going to be sitting here having a conversation. It was really, you know, I got dressed in five minutes.

Glynis Tao

But I think that color looks great on you. 

Jenni Lee

Thank you.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, I don't normally wear a lot of black. Like I have a very colorful background behind me, so I kind of thought, why not?

Jenni Lee

You’re defined! I can see your definition.

Glynis Tao

Thank you. So when someone wants their wardrobe to reflect their authority or expertise, where should they start?

Jenni Lee

I think they need to think about, you know, their authority and expertise is personal to whatever their industry is. So they need to think about, again, their audience and who are they getting in front of and what do they want those people to believe about them and make sure they're dressing in a representation of that, of their personal authority, whatever brand or industry that they're in. Like I gave the analogy of the doctor and the bus driver. We trust these people because we see their uniform. I think that physically some people need to be very comfortable in soft things. They may have skin issues, allergies. So I think another thing that's really important to think about is don't put on anything that is not tried and true. If you are doing something out of the ordinary, you want to make sure it's not something so new and so uncomfortable that it messes with your mind. You don't want anything that you're thinking about that you're concerned with. You want something that you put on and it's easy.

Glynis Tao

And how can someone begin to evaluate their closet through a brand lens instead of a shopping lens?

Jenni Lee

I think that there's no shame in asking for help. You know, there's a belief that hiring a stylist is not something that anyone can do, but no one questions hiring a hairstylist or hair colorist or facialist or a fitness coach. There are lots of stylists out there that can help you identify what is going to work for you, but if you're on your own, the thing to do is set time aside, whether it's an hour on the weekend, put on some music. If you need to make some mood boards ahead of time, whether they're characters from TV shows or celebrities, whatever it is, have some images on your phone or on your laptop. Go to your closet and you have to try the things on. And this is something that should be done about every three months because our bodies fluctuate, they change all the time. We have differences in our life and in weather. And the more you're actually trying your clothes on and mixing and matching them with things, the more outfits you get and the more that you can think about what will work. 

The other key thing to do is once you put on an outfit, I want you to try it on with three different types of shoes. So try it on with a sneaker, try it on with a flat, a loafer, something daytime, and then try it on with a nighttime and evening shoe and see how that outfit changes and how you could wear it to three different places. And take a photo.

Glynis Tao

So can you describe your process and how you work with someone? If someone has never worked with a stylist before, like I guess most people probably don't even think of asking for help from a stylist. They just try to figure it out themselves or go shopping and try on different things that they think may look good on them, but they don't really get that, you know, extra help or feedback. So how do you work with people?

Jenni Lee

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, everyone's really accustomed to shopping either online, so they're doing it wholly all by themselves and they get a bunch of stuff and it can be really overwhelming. Or if they go to the stores, there's that strange pressure of a salesperson trying to sell you things. And the difference with working with a stylist is, you know, we're not trying to sell you clothes, we're just trying to deliver your dream of yourself into reality. 

So what I like to do is start with what you have. My whole philosophy is more styling, less shopping. So I really want to know what we're working with and whether we're doing this over Zoom or if you're in the New York City tri-state area, I come over and we really do go through your closet and really every single piece. You know, we go through, we figure out, does this work for the version that you want to be? How can I help you make more outfits with this? Is this tired and worn out and not worth keeping because it was something you bought at H&M, you know, 10 years ago and it's outdated. Let's get rid of it because I do feel like most people have too much clothes in their closet and it creates really intense decision fatigue and overwhelm and you're not getting the most out of your clothes because you can't really manage what's in there because there is too much. So that's like the first step.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, your philosophy, more styling, less shopping, is such a refreshing perspective in a world driven by consumption. What inspired that approach?

Jenni Lee

I've been watching all the documentaries and I care about the environment. I care about the planet and you know, the future for all my nieces and nephews. I also care about designers, like real true fashion designers and this like onslaught of cheap plastic clothing that just keeps getting made and made and made and the idea that you just have to keep buying and like showing all these trash clothes. Like look at my haul. It was really starting to turn my stomach and again going to women's homes and helping them, you know, unload 12 bags of clothes that they're not wearing with tags that are really cheap and don't do anything. Don't feel special. Don't inspire them. I was like, there's a real problem here and how can I address that? More styling, less shopping just kind of like fell out of me and it just seemed like a really simple way to start encouraging people to make the most of what they have and make really smart, intentional decisions about what they are bringing into their home.

Glynis Tao

And how does styling what you already own create more impact than constantly buying new things?

Jenni Lee

I think that once people break that habit of always getting the dopamine hit of shopping, and you can start elevating the brands that you're buying because maybe you're not buying 10 pieces for $200, you're buying three pieces. And teaching my clients how to shop resale. I love encouraging people to buy better quality things that have already been used and then they get to experience these finer fabrics and better construction. They really start to value what they're wearing and it helps you carry yourself differently because you know that you're wearing something that has more meaning to it.

Glynis Tao

And when the pandemic shut down the entertainment industry, you made a deliberate pivot in your business. And what did that transition look like behind-the-scenes?

Jenni Lee

Well, I touched upon it before. I mean, I realized I had to market myself, which I'd never really done before. When you work in the entertainment industry, producers, photographers, band publicists, people called me. They were like, hey, we have a shoot. We're doing this commercial. Do you want to do it? Are you available? And that's how it worked for me for two decades. And I had one personal client that was not celebrity adjacent. She's a spiritual financial life coach. And I didn't, it just opened up a whole world of an industry I didn't understand. And she was going in networking events and doing all these things. And she just kept saying, there's so many of me out here who could really use this type of help. And then the pandemic hit and there were no fashion shoots. There were no brand shoots. There were no celebrity shoots. She was still having to show up on Instagram and she was still having her Zoom sessions and still wanting my support. And I was like, this might be the time to pivot.

At the same time, what I was discovering was the work that I was doing with her and a few other women when I would go to their homes and help clean out their closets, make new outfits. We were really eliminating a lot of the negative self-image and ideas that we have about ourselves and what we wear as women and how it comes from a patriarchal society that is passed down from grandmothers to mothers to daughters. And we were breaking them and there's tears and emotional ideas really being shed and energy being lifted and it was so meaningful. And I would come home crying because it felt so powerful to help these women. I was making a real difference in their lives. And then they were getting jobs and making more money and becoming millionaires. And I could see the shift in their lives that I was like, OK, this is the next path for me to take. It has a lot of meaning.

Glynis Tao

Wow, that is so inspiring to hear this story and just sounds so powerful to hear that transformation that you have made for these women. 

Do you find that there is a mindset shift also that comes into play when someone's maybe more comfortable with dressing a certain way because this is what they're comfortable wearing, but you maybe see it as not showing like how you had mentioned previously to dress the role where you want to be and where you're going, not where they are. What does that mindset shift look like?

Jenni Lee

I think that there's… because we all have our issues, a lot of dressing is security blanket dressing. And I'm not saying throw out those pieces. Like there are days when you, you know, especially as women, like you're bloated. You need, you need clothes that feel like a security blanket on some days. I'm not saying clear those things out, but like, I'm wearing this because this is what I need. Or you're grieving and you're sad and you want to wear something from, you know, that somebody gave you. I understand having these clothes that are protecting and comforting, but sometimes you need to try things on that you would never wear. And that's where a stylist really does help because I'm able to say, you're telling me you want people to perceive you in a certain way, but there's nothing in your closet that identifies you in this way. Let me bring you some clothes that will deliver on what you're saying that you need, but you have to try them on. We have to see what it looks like. We have to make the full outfit. You have to walk around. You have to sit down. I want you to walk through your whole apartment. I want you to sit down in different height of chairs. I want you to really move. I want you to bend down and your shoes. See how it feels to be in these clothes. Can you, does it feel good? Are you, are you feeling yourself? Are you carrying yourself differently or is it making you feel claustrophobic? You know, you kind of have to test drive things a little bit to know. And I know when I see them look at themselves in an outfit that they never would have considered. And sometimes it's things that they have of their own and I'm just mixing it up in a new way. Their body changes. Their face lights up. They really do see themselves in a different way. And the styling tricks of like, why don't you cuff those jeans a half an inch? Let me roll your sleeve twice. Push up your sleeves on your blazer. Tiny little styling tricks.

Glynis Tao

So you kind of have to take into account, I mean, if you're changing the style of something that the person has to feel comfortable in this look as well, right? They can't just be like put on something, but they're just not feeling it or something that they can't carry. 

Jenni Lee

Absolutely.

Glynis Tao

I have to put those two things together.

Jenni Lee

Yeah, that's one of the biggest things I say is, does this feel like you or do you feel like you're cosplaying? Do you feel like this is a costume? Which is fun, sure, you know, if you're going to like you're going out for an evening to do something completely different than you normally do and you're like, I'm going to go to a goth show and I want to dress goth tonight. It's not my normal thing, but I'm going to do this tonight. But we want to make sure that your everyday clothes, your everyday work wear, even your everyday networking wear still is you. That it's identifiably you and you in the core of your essence doesn't feel like you're faking it. We can elevate you, we can have you dressed to that next career, but it still needs to be you.

Glynis Tao

And so you built Style Club, which is a membership community. It's built around this philosophy. What was your vision for that community and how has it evolved?

Jenni Lee

That really came from doing like a virtual masterclass and having the second half of it be styling a few different women in a Zoom room and the response was so positive. They really, really loved watching each other get styled and seeing the focus on someone else that it gave them ideas and it also helped them, you know, erase and shed some of those insecurities and limiting beliefs because they were witnessing other people express those same things. And they were seeing like, this is not true. What you're saying isn't true, and I'm here to say, you look amazing in that. And from that, Style Club was born and really just recreating that feeling of… almost, you know, think about your teenage years, your early 20 years, getting ready with your girlfriends and how much fun that was before you went out and that would be like the best part of the whole entire evening was that little pregame session of dress up and kind of creating that energy, but around the important events and moments in these women's lives.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, and so right now I'd just love to hear maybe if you wanted to share a particular story of a moment where a change in someone's wardrobe directly impacted their confidence or career opportunity.

Jenni Lee

I can think of a client, we've done a lot of one-on-one work together and she is also a member of Style Club. She had a really big work trip where she was speaking at a couple conferences. She was going to Europe and it was a long trip and she doesn't have… she's not a super fashionista. I mean she's much more now, but she doesn't have a lot of clothes and she knew she didn't. She was going to a few different countries, she knew she didn't want to overpack. And we must have created 15 outfits that could work in different environments, different climates, and having all of these outfits planned out for the full trip—and that included also just travel, vacation days, big meetings, big dinners, specific work things—having them all planned out, she said she saved so much time because it was all planned out. She had like her list of her outfits, where she was wearing everything. We had photographs of everything. It was the same thing that we would, I would do back in the day when I worked with celebrities and they had press junket tours where they're going to promote a movie and we do a fitting and we plan all the outfits and they know exactly what they're wearing for every single interview. And she said she saved so much time and she was so at ease. That it was so easy to do all of these things that she was able to do the work and have incredible connections and she got called to do it again the following year because she wasn't stressed out about anything. And that's just like the top of my head.

Glynis Tao

Great story. And I'm sure you have so many other stories to share about, like success stories. So for founders who might feel uncomfortable investing time and style, what would you say to them?

Jenni Lee

I would say, try to approach it as self-care and think about how you approach food. Like you're probably buying organic food. You're certainly washing all your fruits and vegetables. You're not giving yourself a hard time about going to pick out food for a healthy recipe and take care of your body. Same thing with your hair care and your skin care.

Think of your clothes in that same way and how you can be really mindful about what are you deciding to purchase? Are you wearing a bunch of plastic on your body? Are you wearing organic fabrics? Are your clothes helping enhance your life because they are giving you confidence, making you feel comfortable, making you feel elevated? Or are they something that is an afterthought? I think that really integrating it as a mindful practice is a way to approach style in a holistic manner. We all love to get a deal and I think that the rise of fast fashion and Amazon being a source of where people buy clothes now and the idea of like, got all of this for $20 and I'm a smart city shopper. It's not valuable. It's like saying, I love food, but if you eat McDonald's every day. Yeah. I really do equate it to that, you know, they call it fast food and they call it fast fashion for the same reason.

Glynis Tao

That's right! I don't think people make that connection between that—fast food, fast fashion. It sort of makes you feel equally as gross inside for me anyways. And if I was wearing it and eating it at the same time… I don’t know, right? But that's very interesting. Was there anything else that you wanted to add?

Jenni Lee

I think that there's, you know, I know that clothes are expensive and they're getting even more expensive because of tariffs and the economy right now, but I just, cannot stress it enough that there are so many incredible resale sites with really, really beautiful, gorgeous, high-end, elevated, luxurious clothes that you can buy secondhand. Some things still have tags on them and that it's just such an easy, affordable way for you to start filling your closet with better quality, that you'll just be in love with your clothes. Have clothes that you don't want to throw out until they're completely worn out.

Glynis Tao

Before we close this conversation, if someone listening today wants to start using the wardrobe as a tool for their personal brand, what's the first step that they should take to get started?

Jenni Lee

I think that really evaluate what is your brand message? So if you know that, then go to your closet with that kind of ringing in your ears and start pulling out the pieces in your closet that speak to that. And then from there, and if that's too abstract, then you know your brand, you know your business, maybe you can find an avatar of a character in a movie or television and take some screen grabs of that person because some people work more visually and see if you have items in your closet that are an easy jump from this blazer somewhat looks like this blazer that this character wore and how can I recreate that outfit? You know, sometimes it's as simple as that—just trying to copy some outfits that you've seen on this aspirational avatar. Or call me for help.

Glynis Tao

That's what I was going to say. Call Jenni Lee. She'll help you. 

Jenni Lee

Doesn’t matter where you are, I can help you.

Glynis Tao

You can help anyone regardless of where they're located, right? 

Jenni Lee

Yeah, absolutely.

Glynis Tao

Where's your furthest client base?

Jenni Lee

Well, London or LA, because I'm in New York.

Glynis Tao

That makes sense. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Jenni Lee

Everything is Jenni Lee Stylist. It's Jenni with an I, so find me on Instagram, Google me. My website is jennileesylist.consulting, but hit me up on Instagram and let's just have a conversation.

Glynis Tao

Sounds amazing. Thank you so much, Jenni Lee, for joining me on the Chase Your Dreams podcast today.

Jenni Lee

It was so fun chatting with you about all of this. I really appreciate you having me on.