In this episode, fashion stylist and image consultant Jenni Lee shares how intentional styling can be a powerful tool for personal branding, visual communication, and professional growth. Drawing on more than 20 years of experience working with celebrities and major publications, she explains how clothing acts as a visual language that shapes first impressions and opens opportunities. Jenni discusses her philosophy of “more styling, less shopping,” encouraging people to make better use of the clothes they already own while building wardrobes that align with their personal brand and future aspirations. She also reflects on her pivot during the pandemic from celebrity styling to helping female entrepreneurs and founders use style to express authority, creativity, and authenticity in their businesses.
About Jenni Lee
Jenni Lee is a fashion stylist and image consultant with more than 20 years of experience shaping the visual narratives of celebrities, artists, and public figures. Her work has appeared in major publications including Harper’s Bazaar, Rolling Stone, People, and InStyle, and she has styled notable names such as Lauryn Hill and Scarlett Johansson. When the pandemic paused the entertainment industry, she pivoted her focus toward helping real women, such as female entrepreneurs and founders, use style as a tool for confidence, creativity, and personal branding. Today, she leads Style Club, a membership community built around her philosophy of “more styling, less shopping,” where she teaches ambitious women how to transform their existing wardrobes into powerful expressions of identity and authority.
Style is a visual first impression of your personal brand
Dressing aspirationally can shift your mindset and perception
Invest in high-quality clothing that lasts
Regular closet reviews help keep your wardrobe aligned with your goals
Think of styling as a form of self-care
Interview Themes
Why is style a powerful language tool?
Jenni explains that clothing communicates powerful messages before we even say a single word. A doctor’s coat or a bus driver’s uniform immediately signals trust and authority just like how our outfits suggest our professionalism, credibility, and identity. Style is a visual language that shapes how others perceive us. By dressing with intention, you can guide the narrative others form about you.
How can a wardrobe be used as a business asset?
Clothing reflects your personal branding and messaging. Entrepreneurs and founders alike can talk about their value, but a strong visual identity and presence can amplify that message. Style and brand messaging that is aligned creates a more cohesive public image.
Why is it important to dress for a role that you aspire to have?
Clothing can help people step out of their comfort zone and into the next version of themselves. By dressing aspirationally, people will begin to embody that desired identity. This shift can change how people are perceived while boosting confidence.
How can you start aligning your wardrobe with your personal brand?
Identify your brand message and the impression you want to leave on others. Using those ideas as a foundation, review the current state of your closet and identify pieces that support the story you want to tell. Look to film characters, public figures, etc. for style inspiration.
What does the philosophy “more styling, less shopping” mean?
After years of helping clients sort through overflowing closets, Jenni realized that most people don’t actually need more clothing and instead need to discover better ways to wear what they already own. Maximizing existing pieces through thoughtful styling is miles better than constantly purchasing clothes that often go unworn.
Chapters
00:00 Jenni Lee and her philosophy of more styling, less shopping
03:15 Jenni's journey from film school to celebrity stylist
06:07 Style as a powerful language tool
07:55 Why a wardrobe is a valuable business asset
10:06 Choosing outfits that reflect authority and expertise
12:16 Evaluating your closet through a brand lens
14:09 Jenni’s styling process with clients
15:38 The inspiration behind more styling, less shopping
16:45 Impact of styling existing wardrobe on confidence and value
23:28 Building the Style Club community and its purpose
24:52 Success story: wardrobe transformation for a European work trip
29:27 First steps to using wardrobe as a personal brand tool
Transcript
Jenni Lee
What I like to do is start with what you have. My whole philosophy is more styling, less shopping. So I really want to know what we're working with and whether we're doing this over Zoom or if you're in the New York City tri-state area, I come over and we really do go through your closet and really every single piece, you know, we go through, we figure out does this work for the version that you want to be? How can I help you make more outfits with this? Is this tired and worn out and not worth keeping because it was something you bought 10 years ago and it's outdated. Let's get rid of it because I do feel like most people have too much clothes in their closet and it creates really intense decision fatigue and overwhelm. And you're not getting the most out of your clothes because you can't really manage what's in there because there is too much.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Today's guest is someone who truly understands the power of image and how the way we present ourselves can shape the opportunities that come our way. Jenni Lee is a fashion stylist and image consultant with more than 20 years of experience, working with some of the biggest names in entertainment, including Lauryn Hill and Scarlett Johansson. Her work has been featured in publications like Harper's Bazaar, Rolling Stone, People, and InStyle, and she has spent decades helping shape the visual narratives of artists, celebrities, and public figures. When the pandemic brought the entertainment industry to a halt, Jenni Lee didn't just wait for things to go back to normal. She used that momentum to reimagine her work and shift her focus towards something more personal: helping real women and founders build wardrobes that communicate confidence, authority, and intention.
Today, she leads Style Club, a membership community built around her philosophy of more styling, less shopping, where she teaches ambitious women how to stop buying more clothes and start using their wardrobe as a powerful tool for personal branding and self-expression.
In this conversation, we're here to talk about why a wardrobe is actually one of the most underused assets in your business, what celebrity styling can teach founders about building authority and how intentional style can help you step into the next version of yourself.
Welcome Jenni. It's so nice to have you here on the podcast.
Jenni Lee
Thank you so much for having me. I love having these conversations.
Glynis Tao
Absolutely. You've styled icons like Lauryn Hill and Scarlett Johansson, which is an incredible career path. Can you take us back to the beginning of your journey into fashion styling? What first drew you to styling as a profession and how did you land those early opportunities in the entertainment industry?
Jenni Lee
Yeah, when I started, I didn't even know what a fashion stylist was. I just was someone with a strong personal style. And I knew I wanted to work in an aspect where I was able to do storytelling. So I wanted to be a filmmaker. And I went to film school and I dropped out of film school and moved to New York and just started working on movies in every department, meaning everything from camera to art department. And then I tried wardrobe and everything clicked. Every decision I made was the right decision and the producers and costume designers that I was assisting working with saw that and believed in me and gave me opportunities. And from there it just expanded because I met more costume designers and one of them was a fashion stylist and she really taught me about styling and fashion and just my innate sense of style, which all kind of stemmed from my relationship with my grandmother who really used clothes as a way to make her day. She said making her look would make her day. And that creativity, I just sponged all of it. And she taught me at a thrift store shop and like shop for designer clothes that way and it really just took me on my path. And those first opportunities just came, you know, really from what I was wearing and how I expressed myself and people seeing that.
Glynis Tao
After working at such a high level in celebrity styling, what did that experience teach you about the relationship between image, identity, and influence?
Jenni Lee
I think the components are not only are you dressing for yourself and how you need to feel comfortable in that day, but it’s really thinking about your audience. And this again stems from that filmmaking experience of storytelling. So if you put yourself as the main character of your movie, of your television show, and each day is an episode and there's scenes in that day and there's locations that you're going to shoot on and there's other characters crossing paths with, what do you want them to think about you and just understanding that how you dress for the day is a language, style is language. And what do you want them to interpret very quickly? And how do you want them to react to you and how you can really manipulate the narrative of your day by what you're wearing?
And the other thing is, all of us, no matter how famous someone is, everybody has their own personal insecurities, whether that's emotional, mental, intellectual, or body. And you can use your clothes as a way to help strengthen you and overcome those things.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so you often say that style is language. What do you mean by that and why do so many professionals underestimate the power of what they wear?
Jenni Lee
I think that, you know, think of it this way. If you go to the doctor, you're trusting the doctor because they are wearing a doctor's outfit. You get on the bus and trust that that person can drive the bus because they're wearing a uniform. So many subconscious things we do because we believe in the outfit that somebody is wearing. And you can use that same sort of language to have someone understand something about you so quickly. And I tell a lot of my younger clients who are, you know, stepping into new careers, look at how your bosses dress and how can you replicate the way they dress, but your own personal spin on it? Dress for the next level. Don't be invisible. Don't be so comfortable. Push yourself a little bit further so you can be, so that those around you who can give you opportunities can see you in the position of the opportunity that they're considering you for.
Glynis Tao
So do you work with a lot of founders and entrepreneurs or professionals and sort of like what type of businesses or niche are they in?
Jenni Lee
I think that the main connection between all the women that I work with is that there is an element of creativity and ambition because I do work with women from all different fields; from film directors and production designers to high level executives to financial coaches, spiritual coaches. I work with artists, I work with academics. So it really does cross zigzag all across industries, the type of women that I work with.
Glynis Tao
Many entrepreneurs focus heavily on marketing, messaging, content strategy, and overlook their personal presentation. Why do you believe a wardrobe is actually a business asset?
Jenni Lee
I think that this was personally when the pandemic happened and I realized that I was going to pivot into personal styling and I, being a very introverted, behind-the-scenes person, understood I have to start promoting myself on Instagram and what is that going to look like? Who am I talking to? And I was looking at all these other entrepreneurs, mine entrepreneurs, and everyone was just in yoga pants and I couldn't wrap my head around the disconnect between what they're selling, whatever industry or brand it was, and how little consideration they took into their personal appearance. And I just saw a big gaping hole of, you know, we're scrolling endlessly. And if you want to have someone stop, you need to have a full picture there that is polished and together and enticing. Not just the words that you're yelling out at people, but make the whole image work to your advantage is just such an overlooked tool in that toolbox of branding.
Glynis Tao
And what are some common mistakes that entrepreneurs make when it comes to building a wardrobe that aligns with their brand?
Jenni Lee
One of the things that… it's twofold. There's one mistake of always wearing your brand colors, which actually means you're blending in with your fonts and your background and things like that. Your brand color should be an accent that you can tie through everything, if you feel that your brand colors are that necessary. I don't dress in a rainbow of colors. I don't dress in my brand colors.
I think the other side is never considering if what you are wearing gels with and is cohesive with your brand color. So then you're making a reel cover or an Instagram post and you're wearing something that just looks jarring or it doesn't look aesthetically pleasing with the text and the caption and all of those things that you have to do. I think really just being considerate about your audience and what you're wearing and where it is going on any given day.
Glynis Tao
You appear to be quite colourful and like I've seen what your feed looks like and what you're wearing today is nice. How did you choose your outfit that you're gonna wear today?
Jenni Lee
For me personally, I'm like, I just moved into this new office. I don't have anything on my walls. It's white background. I know that I want to pop from my background. I don't want to blend in. So I have a very defined color. You can see my body and that I'm in front of something. I'm not blending. Same as you, you're wearing black and I can see you not blending from the wall and just having a foreground and a background. And this is all that filmmaking stuff that is just embedded into me. And I knew I wanted to be comfortable. I'm going to be sitting here having a conversation. It was really, you know, I got dressed in five minutes.
Glynis Tao
But I think that color looks great on you.
Jenni Lee
Thank you.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I don't normally wear a lot of black. Like I have a very colorful background behind me, so I kind of thought, why not?
Jenni Lee
You’re defined! I can see your definition.
Glynis Tao
Thank you. So when someone wants their wardrobe to reflect their authority or expertise, where should they start?
Jenni Lee
I think they need to think about, you know, their authority and expertise is personal to whatever their industry is. So they need to think about, again, their audience and who are they getting in front of and what do they want those people to believe about them and make sure they're dressing in a representation of that, of their personal authority, whatever brand or industry that they're in. Like I gave the analogy of the doctor and the bus driver. We trust these people because we see their uniform. I think that physically some people need to be very comfortable in soft things. They may have skin issues, allergies. So I think another thing that's really important to think about is don't put on anything that is not tried and true. If you are doing something out of the ordinary, you want to make sure it's not something so new and so uncomfortable that it messes with your mind. You don't want anything that you're thinking about that you're concerned with. You want something that you put on and it's easy.
Glynis Tao
And how can someone begin to evaluate their closet through a brand lens instead of a shopping lens?
Jenni Lee
I think that there's no shame in asking for help. You know, there's a belief that hiring a stylist is not something that anyone can do, but no one questions hiring a hairstylist or hair colorist or facialist or a fitness coach. There are lots of stylists out there that can help you identify what is going to work for you, but if you're on your own, the thing to do is set time aside, whether it's an hour on the weekend, put on some music. If you need to make some mood boards ahead of time, whether they're characters from TV shows or celebrities, whatever it is, have some images on your phone or on your laptop. Go to your closet and you have to try the things on. And this is something that should be done about every three months because our bodies fluctuate, they change all the time. We have differences in our life and in weather. And the more you're actually trying your clothes on and mixing and matching them with things, the more outfits you get and the more that you can think about what will work.
The other key thing to do is once you put on an outfit, I want you to try it on with three different types of shoes. So try it on with a sneaker, try it on with a flat, a loafer, something daytime, and then try it on with a nighttime and evening shoe and see how that outfit changes and how you could wear it to three different places. And take a photo.
Glynis Tao
So can you describe your process and how you work with someone? If someone has never worked with a stylist before, like I guess most people probably don't even think of asking for help from a stylist. They just try to figure it out themselves or go shopping and try on different things that they think may look good on them, but they don't really get that, you know, extra help or feedback. So how do you work with people?
Jenni Lee
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, everyone's really accustomed to shopping either online, so they're doing it wholly all by themselves and they get a bunch of stuff and it can be really overwhelming. Or if they go to the stores, there's that strange pressure of a salesperson trying to sell you things. And the difference with working with a stylist is, you know, we're not trying to sell you clothes, we're just trying to deliver your dream of yourself into reality.
So what I like to do is start with what you have. My whole philosophy is more styling, less shopping. So I really want to know what we're working with and whether we're doing this over Zoom or if you're in the New York City tri-state area, I come over and we really do go through your closet and really every single piece. You know, we go through, we figure out, does this work for the version that you want to be? How can I help you make more outfits with this? Is this tired and worn out and not worth keeping because it was something you bought at H&M, you know, 10 years ago and it's outdated. Let's get rid of it because I do feel like most people have too much clothes in their closet and it creates really intense decision fatigue and overwhelm and you're not getting the most out of your clothes because you can't really manage what's in there because there is too much. So that's like the first step.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, your philosophy, more styling, less shopping, is such a refreshing perspective in a world driven by consumption. What inspired that approach?
Jenni Lee
I've been watching all the documentaries and I care about the environment. I care about the planet and you know, the future for all my nieces and nephews. I also care about designers, like real true fashion designers and this like onslaught of cheap plastic clothing that just keeps getting made and made and made and the idea that you just have to keep buying and like showing all these trash clothes. Like look at my haul. It was really starting to turn my stomach and again going to women's homes and helping them, you know, unload 12 bags of clothes that they're not wearing with tags that are really cheap and don't do anything. Don't feel special. Don't inspire them. I was like, there's a real problem here and how can I address that? More styling, less shopping just kind of like fell out of me and it just seemed like a really simple way to start encouraging people to make the most of what they have and make really smart, intentional decisions about what they are bringing into their home.
Glynis Tao
And how does styling what you already own create more impact than constantly buying new things?
Jenni Lee
I think that once people break that habit of always getting the dopamine hit of shopping, and you can start elevating the brands that you're buying because maybe you're not buying 10 pieces for $200, you're buying three pieces. And teaching my clients how to shop resale. I love encouraging people to buy better quality things that have already been used and then they get to experience these finer fabrics and better construction. They really start to value what they're wearing and it helps you carry yourself differently because you know that you're wearing something that has more meaning to it.
Glynis Tao
And when the pandemic shut down the entertainment industry, you made a deliberate pivot in your business. And what did that transition look like behind-the-scenes?
Jenni Lee
Well, I touched upon it before. I mean, I realized I had to market myself, which I'd never really done before. When you work in the entertainment industry, producers, photographers, band publicists, people called me. They were like, hey, we have a shoot. We're doing this commercial. Do you want to do it? Are you available? And that's how it worked for me for two decades. And I had one personal client that was not celebrity adjacent. She's a spiritual financial life coach. And I didn't, it just opened up a whole world of an industry I didn't understand. And she was going in networking events and doing all these things. And she just kept saying, there's so many of me out here who could really use this type of help. And then the pandemic hit and there were no fashion shoots. There were no brand shoots. There were no celebrity shoots. She was still having to show up on Instagram and she was still having her Zoom sessions and still wanting my support. And I was like, this might be the time to pivot.
At the same time, what I was discovering was the work that I was doing with her and a few other women when I would go to their homes and help clean out their closets, make new outfits. We were really eliminating a lot of the negative self-image and ideas that we have about ourselves and what we wear as women and how it comes from a patriarchal society that is passed down from grandmothers to mothers to daughters. And we were breaking them and there's tears and emotional ideas really being shed and energy being lifted and it was so meaningful. And I would come home crying because it felt so powerful to help these women. I was making a real difference in their lives. And then they were getting jobs and making more money and becoming millionaires. And I could see the shift in their lives that I was like, OK, this is the next path for me to take. It has a lot of meaning.
Glynis Tao
Wow, that is so inspiring to hear this story and just sounds so powerful to hear that transformation that you have made for these women.
Do you find that there is a mindset shift also that comes into play when someone's maybe more comfortable with dressing a certain way because this is what they're comfortable wearing, but you maybe see it as not showing like how you had mentioned previously to dress the role where you want to be and where you're going, not where they are. What does that mindset shift look like?
Jenni Lee
I think that there's… because we all have our issues, a lot of dressing is security blanket dressing. And I'm not saying throw out those pieces. Like there are days when you, you know, especially as women, like you're bloated. You need, you need clothes that feel like a security blanket on some days. I'm not saying clear those things out, but like, I'm wearing this because this is what I need. Or you're grieving and you're sad and you want to wear something from, you know, that somebody gave you. I understand having these clothes that are protecting and comforting, but sometimes you need to try things on that you would never wear. And that's where a stylist really does help because I'm able to say, you're telling me you want people to perceive you in a certain way, but there's nothing in your closet that identifies you in this way. Let me bring you some clothes that will deliver on what you're saying that you need, but you have to try them on. We have to see what it looks like. We have to make the full outfit. You have to walk around. You have to sit down. I want you to walk through your whole apartment. I want you to sit down in different height of chairs. I want you to really move. I want you to bend down and your shoes. See how it feels to be in these clothes. Can you, does it feel good? Are you, are you feeling yourself? Are you carrying yourself differently or is it making you feel claustrophobic? You know, you kind of have to test drive things a little bit to know. And I know when I see them look at themselves in an outfit that they never would have considered. And sometimes it's things that they have of their own and I'm just mixing it up in a new way. Their body changes. Their face lights up. They really do see themselves in a different way. And the styling tricks of like, why don't you cuff those jeans a half an inch? Let me roll your sleeve twice. Push up your sleeves on your blazer. Tiny little styling tricks.
Glynis Tao
So you kind of have to take into account, I mean, if you're changing the style of something that the person has to feel comfortable in this look as well, right? They can't just be like put on something, but they're just not feeling it or something that they can't carry.
Jenni Lee
Absolutely.
Glynis Tao
I have to put those two things together.
Jenni Lee
Yeah, that's one of the biggest things I say is, does this feel like you or do you feel like you're cosplaying? Do you feel like this is a costume? Which is fun, sure, you know, if you're going to like you're going out for an evening to do something completely different than you normally do and you're like, I'm going to go to a goth show and I want to dress goth tonight. It's not my normal thing, but I'm going to do this tonight. But we want to make sure that your everyday clothes, your everyday work wear, even your everyday networking wear still is you. That it's identifiably you and you in the core of your essence doesn't feel like you're faking it. We can elevate you, we can have you dressed to that next career, but it still needs to be you.
Glynis Tao
And so you built Style Club, which is a membership community. It's built around this philosophy. What was your vision for that community and how has it evolved?
Jenni Lee
That really came from doing like a virtual masterclass and having the second half of it be styling a few different women in a Zoom room and the response was so positive. They really, really loved watching each other get styled and seeing the focus on someone else that it gave them ideas and it also helped them, you know, erase and shed some of those insecurities and limiting beliefs because they were witnessing other people express those same things. And they were seeing like, this is not true. What you're saying isn't true, and I'm here to say, you look amazing in that. And from that, Style Club was born and really just recreating that feeling of… almost, you know, think about your teenage years, your early 20 years, getting ready with your girlfriends and how much fun that was before you went out and that would be like the best part of the whole entire evening was that little pregame session of dress up and kind of creating that energy, but around the important events and moments in these women's lives.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and so right now I'd just love to hear maybe if you wanted to share a particular story of a moment where a change in someone's wardrobe directly impacted their confidence or career opportunity.
Jenni Lee
I can think of a client, we've done a lot of one-on-one work together and she is also a member of Style Club. She had a really big work trip where she was speaking at a couple conferences. She was going to Europe and it was a long trip and she doesn't have… she's not a super fashionista. I mean she's much more now, but she doesn't have a lot of clothes and she knew she didn't. She was going to a few different countries, she knew she didn't want to overpack. And we must have created 15 outfits that could work in different environments, different climates, and having all of these outfits planned out for the full trip—and that included also just travel, vacation days, big meetings, big dinners, specific work things—having them all planned out, she said she saved so much time because it was all planned out. She had like her list of her outfits, where she was wearing everything. We had photographs of everything. It was the same thing that we would, I would do back in the day when I worked with celebrities and they had press junket tours where they're going to promote a movie and we do a fitting and we plan all the outfits and they know exactly what they're wearing for every single interview. And she said she saved so much time and she was so at ease. That it was so easy to do all of these things that she was able to do the work and have incredible connections and she got called to do it again the following year because she wasn't stressed out about anything. And that's just like the top of my head.
Glynis Tao
Great story. And I'm sure you have so many other stories to share about, like success stories. So for founders who might feel uncomfortable investing time and style, what would you say to them?
Jenni Lee
I would say, try to approach it as self-care and think about how you approach food. Like you're probably buying organic food. You're certainly washing all your fruits and vegetables. You're not giving yourself a hard time about going to pick out food for a healthy recipe and take care of your body. Same thing with your hair care and your skin care.
Think of your clothes in that same way and how you can be really mindful about what are you deciding to purchase? Are you wearing a bunch of plastic on your body? Are you wearing organic fabrics? Are your clothes helping enhance your life because they are giving you confidence, making you feel comfortable, making you feel elevated? Or are they something that is an afterthought? I think that really integrating it as a mindful practice is a way to approach style in a holistic manner. We all love to get a deal and I think that the rise of fast fashion and Amazon being a source of where people buy clothes now and the idea of like, got all of this for $20 and I'm a smart city shopper. It's not valuable. It's like saying, I love food, but if you eat McDonald's every day. Yeah. I really do equate it to that, you know, they call it fast food and they call it fast fashion for the same reason.
Glynis Tao
That's right! I don't think people make that connection between that—fast food, fast fashion. It sort of makes you feel equally as gross inside for me anyways. And if I was wearing it and eating it at the same time… I don’t know, right? But that's very interesting. Was there anything else that you wanted to add?
Jenni Lee
I think that there's, you know, I know that clothes are expensive and they're getting even more expensive because of tariffs and the economy right now, but I just, cannot stress it enough that there are so many incredible resale sites with really, really beautiful, gorgeous, high-end, elevated, luxurious clothes that you can buy secondhand. Some things still have tags on them and that it's just such an easy, affordable way for you to start filling your closet with better quality, that you'll just be in love with your clothes. Have clothes that you don't want to throw out until they're completely worn out.
Glynis Tao
Before we close this conversation, if someone listening today wants to start using the wardrobe as a tool for their personal brand, what's the first step that they should take to get started?
Jenni Lee
I think that really evaluate what is your brand message? So if you know that, then go to your closet with that kind of ringing in your ears and start pulling out the pieces in your closet that speak to that. And then from there, and if that's too abstract, then you know your brand, you know your business, maybe you can find an avatar of a character in a movie or television and take some screen grabs of that person because some people work more visually and see if you have items in your closet that are an easy jump from this blazer somewhat looks like this blazer that this character wore and how can I recreate that outfit? You know, sometimes it's as simple as that—just trying to copy some outfits that you've seen on this aspirational avatar. Or call me for help.
Glynis Tao
That's what I was going to say. Call Jenni Lee. She'll help you.
Jenni Lee
Doesn’t matter where you are, I can help you.
Glynis Tao
You can help anyone regardless of where they're located, right?
Jenni Lee
Yeah, absolutely.
Glynis Tao
Where's your furthest client base?
Jenni Lee
Well, London or LA, because I'm in New York.
Glynis Tao
That makes sense. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Jenni Lee
Everything is Jenni Lee Stylist. It's Jenni with an I, so find me on Instagram, Google me. My website is jennileesylist.consulting, but hit me up on Instagram and let's just have a conversation.
Glynis Tao
Sounds amazing. Thank you so much, Jenni Lee, for joining me on the Chase Your Dreams podcast today.
Jenni Lee
It was so fun chatting with you about all of this. I really appreciate you having me on.
PR expert KJ Blattenbauer shares how founders can build visibility and authority without feeling salesy. She explains why great work alone isn’t enough and why clear messaging and positioning are essential to helping your audience understand who you are, what you do, and why it matters. KJ shares practical tips for crafting concise, compelling brand statements, using free PR channels, and creating content that strengthens customer connections. The conversation emphasizes the mindset shift needed for self-promotion, showing that visibility is a leadership skill and a way to serve your audience. Discover actionable strategies to communicate your expertise, attract the right customers, and grow your business.
About KJ Blattenbauer
KJ Blattenbauer is a seasoned publicist with over 30 years of experience helping overlooked experts step into the spotlight. She is the founder of Hearsay PR, the author of How to Be a Media Darling and recent release, Pitchworthy, and a trusted voice in sharing no-nonsense PR advice that gets real results. KJ specializes in helping founders and entrepreneurs craft compelling messaging, build visibility, and establish authority.
Visibility is a leadership skill that helps people understand your value
Find your niche and speak to a specific audience
Clear messaging is essential to attracting the right audience
Be proactive about pitching yourself to form media connections
Earned media builds stronger trust than paid promotion
Visibility compounds over time
Interview Themes
Why shouldn’t businesses let their work speak for itself?
People assume that when they create a great product or service, everyone will automatically notice and purchase. The truth is, people will not notice what you offer until you tell them about it. Founders need to actively tell people what they do, how their products or service can help them, and why it matters. That’s how founders can turn their expertise into trust, recognition, and results.
Why is clear messaging and positioning important for brands?
Founders need to be able to clearly explain who they help, what they do, and why it matters in simple terms so that their audience can easily understand the value of the business. Clear messaging that avoids jargon helps attract the right customers, stand out from competitors, and improve overall conversions.
How should founders approach media outreach and PR?
Meet your audience where they already consume content. Find podcasts, blogs, and industry publications that your target audience already consumers and use them as platforms to share your expertise. When pitching, keep your pitches short and focused. Consistency and follow-ups are key to successful outreach.
What type of content should founders be producing to connect with their audience?
Use customer questions to guide your content. Your audience wants to know that they are being listened to. Creating content that answers top questions from customers will help them understand and strengthen their connection with your brand.
What’s the biggest misconception founders have about PR?
Many founders think PR is only reserved for big and expensive brands. In reality, PR can start small and be completely free. Sharing your expertise through podcasts, interviews and more builds trust and authority, oftentimes more effectively than paid ads.
Chapters
00:00 The Power of Messaging and Clarity in Building Authority
02:05 Common Reasons Founders Struggle to Be Seen
03:23 The Evolution of Visibility and Media in the Digital Age
07:19 Using PR to Build Trust and Authority
10:52 How to Position Your Brand for Media and Publicity
13:17 Creating Content That Connects
15:58 Where to Find Media Opportunities for Your Niche
18:02 The Power of Niche Focus and Clarity in PR
21:48 The Value of Free Channels and Earned Medi
26:20 PR Myth Busting: PR Is Only for Big Brands
27:47 DIY PR Strategies for Small Businesses
31:58 The Art of Pitching and Following Up
39:03 Encouragement for Founders
Transcript
KJ Blattenbauer
Messaging tweaks will dramatically change your business because building authority is about clarity. It's about who's raising their hand and making it clear. Here's what I do. Here's how you buy from me. Here's how you shop with me. Here's what we offer. That's what sets brands you've heard of apart from brands that you will never hear from. Visibility isn't vanity. It's a leadership skill. How you position yourself, how you position your business or brand, that shows the world how to talk about you in rooms you're not in. That shows your target customer how to buy from you. Don't be afraid to speak up. Don't let your work speak for itself. Choose your passion, use your voice, tell people what you do nonstop because that's the way that your brand goes from good to great and how you keep building your business year after year.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Today's episode is for anyone who has ever thought, I know I'm good at what I do, so why does it still feel like I'm invisible? I'm joined by KJ Blattenbauer, a powerhouse publicist with nearly 30 years of experience helping overlooked experts step into the spotlight. She's the founder of Hearsay PR, the author of How to Be a Media Darling, and the voice behind some of the most clear, no fluff PR advice that gets real results.
In this conversation, we're doing something a little different. KJ is actually using her PR magic on me in real time, breaking down how founders can reframe their story, own their expertise, and start building visibility without feeling salesy or uncomfortable. If you've ever struggled to put yourself out there, pitch yourself, or claim the authority you've earned, you're going to have a lot of aha moments in this episode. So let's get into it.
Welcome, KJ. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me in the podcast.
KJ Blattenbauer
Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here.
Glynis Tao
You're known for turning overlooked experts into headline news. What's the biggest reason smart, capable founders still struggle to be seen?
KJ Blattenbauer
I think it's two reasons, actually. I think the biggest reason is they think the work's gonna speak for itself. They think they do great work, what they do is amazing, they think they should just put a product, a service, a website out there, and the people will just come. And that's not true. You have to tell people what you're doing for them to know you, to like you, to want to buy from you, to know that your service can change their life, or your restaurant's the next best meal they have to have. I think that's part of it.
I think the other part is they don't know how to clearly communicate what it is they do and what they offer people. They know how to use jargon or industry speak. They know how to make really long sentences and word salad. You get nervous, you get caught up, you get a little vulnerable when you're describing yourselves. And I think what leaders need to know is the work won't speak for itself, but also you need one sentence that tells people who you are, what you do, why it matters to them, right this second.
Glynis Tao
And when someone says, I'm great at what I do, but no one's paying attention, what's usually really going on beneath the surface?
KJ Blattenbauer
The messaging, they don't know how to clearly communicate to their target audience, the people they need to sell to. They don't know how to clearly communicate what they're doing, or they're making the bigger mistake of trying to communicate to every single person and not their target audience. So it's usually a messaging or a visibility leak in their pipeline.
Glynis Tao
You've worked in PR for nearly 30 years. How has the definition of visibility changed for founders today compared to earlier in your career?
KJ Blattenbauer
I don't know if the definition itself has changed so much. I think the way to get it has changed immensely. When I started in public relations, the internet wasn't a thing and then social media became a thing. Now you have access to every single thing about every single person at all times. Silence is a leadership skill, just like visibility is. It's controlling the message the way you want it to be. I think that's what's changed.
I think people need to realize here's what you can share, should share, does this move the needle for your business forward? Here's maybe what you don't need to do. We don't all need to be Kardashians. We don't all need to have a reality show. Yes, people buy from people they know, like and trust, but that doesn't mean I have to give you my first born child, a tour of my home, let you know what I ate for my last 15 meals. We can still be selective about what we show people, what we invite them in to do. We can still let them know who we are and our value system, whether they want to work with us or not, but position it in a smart way. What's really changed is it's finally acceptable. It's okay to talk about what you do. It's not bragging, it's not boasting. Again, it's a leadership skill. You are sharing your gifts and your passion and what's changed your life with other people as a way of service to change their lives. I think that's what's great about visibility changing—the acceptance.
Glynis Tao
Many female founders, myself included, struggle with self-promotion, without that feeling salesy. How do you help your clients reframe visibility so it feels aligned instead of uncomfortable?
KJ Blattenbauer
I think it's a mindset shift. So I'm in my mid-40s. I think with age, we don't worry about what other people think, right? But for all of us, we were raised, you should be seen and not heard. Here's the box that life wants to put you in. If you brag or talk about what you're doing, if you show any accomplishments, you might make the person next to you feel small. So that's boastful. Don't be that way. But it's not true. The mindset shift we all need to make, regardless of your age, regardless of childhood trauma, whatever you have going on, regardless of your industry, is that you're coming from a place of service. You created a business, a product, a place for people to go because you saw something missing in the marketplace or a loved one saw something missing in the marketplace.
By not promoting that after you've put all of your blood, sweat, tears, and finances into creating it, you are holding it back from the people that you want to help—the reason you created it, your literal why. You need to put it out there and share it with people as a service, to help them, to make the world a better place. Not to get all woo-woo, but we're put on this earth and we're given good gifts. Share those gifts with the world. That's not bragging, that's not boastful, that's being a good human. You should want to help people move forward. Just like the National Parks slogan is. You don't want people, you come there and you're never supposed to leave a national park worse than when you got there, right? You pick up your trash, you take care of mother nature, those sorts of things. Treat people that way. Treat your business that way. Never let a customer or a potential customer leave you worse than when they came. Help that next person forward. You do that by promoting and sharing what you're good at, talking about what you're passionate about. When you feel like cowering or hiding, it's a confidence issue within yourself. Don't make it about you. Position it about them. Service to them. It will change, it will literally change your life if you start taking yourself out of the equation and putting it on the other person.
Glynis Tao
So you said you'd love to use your PR magic on me and I'm going to be vulnerable for a moment and let you coach me. So are you ready to do that?
KJ Blattenbauer
I'm ready. So I think first of all we should tell people about the process. I think that messaging is where everyone needs help. No matter who you are. Even me. If I started a new product or service tomorrow, I would bring in a peer to help me with my messaging because if I can't clearly articulate what I do, who I'm serving, what the goal is, it's a problem. Like, I don't know who to talk to. I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how to get my target audience to come to me.
So the first thing that we did is I sent you one of my intake forms and it covers really basic questions. There was nothing in there that stumped you, right? There was nothing revolutionary in that form. You can agree, right? Very basic, very simple. It helps me gather… it's questions like, what's your main goal? Who's your audience? How do you want your target customer to think, feel after experience working with you? You know, like, what brands do you admire? Who are your competitors? It's really simple questions like that. And it helps me see your mindset and a peek into your industry, but also how you want your brand to be perceived—what your goals truly are. If you don't know again what your goal is, I can't help you find the target audience, but I can't help you figure out how to communicate with them. So through that simple form that I put everyone through, I learn a lot about people and I learn a good way to position things. I think what you do is amazing. So right now, if we were at a networking event and someone said, Glynis, what do you do? What would you tell them?
Glynis Tao
I usually tell them that I'm the founder of Chase Your Dreams Consulting and we are an online marketing agency that helps fashion, beauty and lifestyle brands get better online visibility through SEO and GEO.
KJ Blattenbauer
Right, right. So for me, I know what those things mean, right? To a point. But even I'm like, SEO and GEO? I have to think for a second about what that is. For the normal everyday entrepreneur or for people who have no clue what even being an entrepreneur is or even people who have been in the industry for a while, they can tell you're good. They can tell you're smart. They can tell you that you know what you're doing, but the positioning is a problem. It's unclear to them exactly what you want to be known for because if it's not immediately clear, if they have to stop and think for a second, it's a conversation problem for them, which will then be a conversion problem for you, right? So if I was going to introduce you, I'd say, “Glynis helps fashion and lifestyle e-commerce brands turn Google and AI visibility into predictable revenue, not just traffic.” I feel like those are things people understand AI to a point. They understand Google. They know the two brands you want to serve, that you mainly deal with e-commerce, right? Correct?
Glynis Tao
Yes.
KJ Blattenbauer
And then what you can help them do right now. Like, what's one thing that anyone's going to understand? When they hear “revenue” and when they hear “predictable revenue”, because most people, they struggle with up and down, right? Like, everybody wants consistent months. We want to be able to forecast that, especially if you're in the fashion and retail space. Correct?
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely.
KJ Blattenbauer
And so I think it's not just traffic. So for me, it would be something simple like that. “Glynis helps fashion and lifestyle e-commerce brands turn Google and AI visibility into predictable revenue, not just traffic.” And I feel like people will take it faster because you've identified their pain point. Like you've already said, they're like, I'm a fashion brand. I do e-commerce. Wait, predictable revenue? She can tackle Google and AI. So it immediately pops for them. It's the who you are, what you do, right now why it matters, and their pain point. And it just, for people, lights them up. But it also becomes a magnet for media outlets because all of their buzzwords are in there and not in a jargony way, right? We've got the fashion, we've got lifestyle, we've got e-commerce, we're covering Google, AI, everybody wants to talk about AI right now. But then on the business side of things, predictable revenue and not just traffic, but also like, oh my God, send me traffic, especially when there's so much noise there. I feel like there are so many pitches. Like you could take that, throw that in AI itself and be like, help me figure out some pitches for this publication for this. And it would spew so much information for you, you would be so busy pitching, you'd be like, KJ, just, I don't have time.
Glynis Tao
I love that. Thank you so much. Like if you don't mind, I will actually use that.
KJ Blattenbauer
I’ll be offended if you don’t haha.
Glynis Tao
It just makes things so much more clear and less jargony. And shows what's that result other than just traffic? You know getting traffic is one thing but right turning like…
KJ Blattenbauer
And it just proves that you, like anyone could say, we can get you traffic. But it's one thing to get traffic that converts and you have a track record of doing that. You know how to do that. And I think it helps prove like, Glynis really knows her stuff.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and this is the part that I think I really struggle with in communicating whether it's through a bio or through my introduction at a networking event. I mean, that was sort of the line I had been using. I guess I kind of overlooked and thought everybody knows what SEO and G-O mean, you know, that's what they're looking for. But I think that's just the wrong assumption, right?
KJ Blattenbauer
Yeah, well, I think you're in it day to day, right? Like you're in it all the time, morning, noon, and night. You're surrounded by people who are also in it morning, noon, and night. The rest of the general public, I can tell you that I have talked to 50 entrepreneurs this week in one-on-one phone calls. I bet three of them knew what SEO was and how it could benefit them. And I really think if they're like local businesses, they don't even realize they should be using SEO through their Google business to drive the local traffic. I just don't think that people make the connection.
And so like my next challenge to you would be, okay, we've narrowed down, here's how you talk about yourself, here's how you put your skills and your expertise in that one sentence. Now you have the clarity to help position yourself for people. I would take the top 10 to 12 questions people ask you all the time, and I would base my content on that. You're literally taking what your target customer, potential customers are asking you all the time. Answer their questions. That is your content on your social media, on your website and the facts. If you do pitches, position pitches around that, it's gonna not only show you as the expert who gets it, but it's also the expert who listens. Like, oh my gosh, she's talking to me. Like, that's my exact question. How did she know? You know, you're the mind reader. It helps them associate with you faster. It helps them feel more comfortable. But truly as human beings, we all want to be listened to, and we really just want someone to solve our problems. Like, I'm a business owner multiple times over. I have my PR company, I have side businesses, I have businesses I invest in. There are at least four times a week where I'm like, I will pay any amount of money for someone to fix whatever this roadblock is. And the key is just to be that roadblock remover.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I think what most people want to do is just be seen and heard and understood and that I can relate to whatever that pain point is that they are facing. And there are several repeated questions that I get asked over and over again. And I think through the years of doing this, I mean, I've gotten a lot more familiar with the types of common questions. So definitely, it won't be that hard for me to put together this list of the 12 questions.
KJ Blattenbauer
Right, and you find like year after year, right? It's kind of the same questions.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it mostly is.
KJ Blattenbauer
Because your experience is real. You've lived it, you know, you've converted people, you have the track record. Like if we were Girl Scouts, you'd have all the badges that prove how good at what you do is. You're that good at what you do.
You take all of that real experience and you put it out there. It's clear if people are asking the same questions over and over again if they Google it and can't find a clear answer until you put your answer out there, right? The market needs one dominant expert. They need one dominant signal to latch onto to help them find things. There are places like exactly what you do specifically for your target audience. There isn't anyone out there doing it. There's no one who is putting their stake in the sand and being, hey, here's who I am. here's what I do, gonna answer all your questions. It's gonna, like, fish are going to jump into your boat.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and so maybe if you could give me some examples of where some of these places would be.
KJ Blattenbauer
Literally, okay, fashion and lifestyle brands, right? They're busy. They're either e-commerce, head-buried, worried about what they're launching next. What are they reading? What are they watching? What are they listening to? I'm guessing they don't have a ton of time to read. And if they do, I'm sure they're trying to read something like a BuzzFeed, something setting trends, something, you know, like they're not pulling out the latest issue of Forbes, right? Probably multitasking, right? Like I work with a lot of females. They're so busy doing a million things, they listen to podcasts. So when I want to promote anything, I go on podcasts because they can listen to the podcast to learn something while they're doing their day-to-day tasks to make their business better, right? So I would look for literally any podcast that is focused on your industries, fashion, lifestyle, e-commerce, but also that touches on AI, Google, SEO. I bet if I did a podcast search right now through one of my media databases, I could find you 8,500 podcasts that we'd have to narrow down for good fits. And you don't have to go on like the biggest podcasts. You know, it's the quality of the listener, not the quantity. I've been on podcasts that have 3.5 million downloads. I've been on podcasts that have 220. I've made more money off the 220 person podcast and it's because they are listening to someone they trust. They are looking for the resource. And if you clearly communicate your message, they're going to become your people. It's a sampling of all of this, not just the most popular.
Glynis Tao
And maybe not so general, but more niche topics and audience, which I felt I built with my platform, being so specific for fashion founders and business owners. I feel that it gets a place for a source of information and education for fashion business owners. And that's the feedback that I get from people. And so it's really aligned with what I do which overall is to support founders' growth with their business. so, yeah, I guess I spent a lot of time trying to craft and refine my messaging and it has definitely changed and evolved through the years from five years ago to like when I started to now, right? It definitely has changed and I'm still constantly in the process of refining just based on feedback mostly and what it is that people are looking for and the problems and pain points that they're looking to solve.
KJ Blattenbauer
And I think you're going to find when you get clear on your messaging, when you're out there where your people are, you're going to find that you probably don't have competition because people aren't choosing between experts. They're choosing clear authority. It's not about who's raising their hand. I'm a PR expert. I literally wrote the book on it, multiple books on it. There are a million PR people out there. I wrote the book on it twice. So it's not about how big my audience is. It's about raising my hand and letting people see clearly, I'm the expert, here's how I'm the expert. Clarity is gonna beat the comparison every time. Like yes, there might be multiple people who do what you do, but if you clearly communicate your skillset and show your track record of how successful that you've been, they're gonna choose you every time. Because when your positioning is clear, the right people are gonna self-select you before they even hop on a call. And I think that predictability comes from when you establish your authority, not the volume of how many things you're doing, how many times you're posting, all the things you're putting.
Glynis Tao
Okay, and so sometimes I feel like I've maybe niched myself too much. Like a fashion, beauty, lifestyle-y, calm SEO strategist. I don't know. I find sometimes people pigeonhole me as only doing that. Is that a good thing, would you say? Or should I sort of broaden my messaging a little bit and saying I can handle e-comm because I can, but I've just chosen to specialize for this particular niche.
KJ Blattenbauer
No, I think it's great to specialize in your niche. Think about it. We will never run out of clothing brands. We will never run out of fashion companies. We will never run out of lifestyle brands. There are so many that like there could be 15,000 of you within a two square mile radius and there would still be enough work for everybody. Everyone needs what you do. They just aren't aware that they need what you do. So you have to educate them on why they need it and show them how helpful it is.
It could be, you and I have, I think, similar issues in our industry in that most people don't understand what public relations is. They think it's nice to have when they make six or seven figures, or they have to be famous, or they have to make so much money because publicists are so expensive. When the truth of the matter is people need your skill set and my skill set, the second they incorporate the business, we are top of the funnel. When you're legalizing your business entity, when you're trying to make sure that your social media handles match and your branding colors are pretty, they should be thinking about what you do. They should be thinking about why I do. We are at the top of the funnel. People can't buy from your business, use your product, use your service, come into your store, support you or promote you to other people if they don't know you exist. Like no one can fund your app if they can't find it. People have to talk about it. They have to get traffic from you and it has to be traffic that converts, right? They have to know you exist from publicists like me. And so you and I should be at the top of the funnel. And it's just re-educating people on like, it's not going to cost you an arm and a leg. It's going to have more than enough return on investment. Here's why this should be something you do before the social media manager, before all the other wonderful, fun things to do.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and I think I feel a lot of times people sort of really get hung up on one channel doing all the heavy lifting, being social media, like constant posting 24/7. It's like a drain on your energy and resources or paid ads. Immediately going into paid ads without even testing products. This is one thing I hear people saying, I just went straight to paid ads or paid meta ads and they spent a lot of money and did not see any return back. And I'm like, why are you still doing it, right? Because I feel like I have to do something.
KJ Blattenbauer
It's not right. So let me let you in on a little secret. Okay, so I've been doing public relations for 28 years. I've had my own agency for 14. I've never run a paid ad in my life. I've never had to. I took two and a half years off social media. I just started posting again because I want to make it fun for me. It doesn't drive my business. My business was never hurting. Nothing ever stopped. When I didn't post, when I didn't play the game, when I didn't let Meta light me. I have never spent a single dollar on a Facebook ad, on an Instagram ad. I never will. I haven't done anything digitally.
Why? I understand the need to do something. Why not use the free channels? Every public relations resource is free. You should never pay for a magazine article. You should never pay to be on someone's podcast. You should never pay to speak on someone's stage. There are tons of other newspapers, TV shows, podcasts, where your expertise can shine through and you can take advantage of someone else's audience to convert them into your audience for free. Use up all the free channels and favors first. Like talking to you or me, it might cost them money upfront, but after that, you can set up their SEO so it's running while they sleep. You can set up their SEO and their anything for Google. So their Google business can be driving all sorts of revenue for them, all sorts of traffic for them. After they use your services and pay for your services, they're not paying that Google business to run for them.
Glynis Tao
They’re not spending any more money on ads to keep it running. It's just kind of working there in the background.
KJ Blattenbauer
Right. And people can see ads are insincere. It's marketing. They know that you're trying to sell them something. When they're seeing you everywhere because the SEO and the traffic is driving them to you, no, that's the universe pulling them in the right direction. That's the sign that they need to come into your store, buy from you, wear this apparel. When they start seeing an expert all over different media outlets, yeah, it's one thing if I say, hey, Glynis is really good at what she does. It's another thing if you say you're really good at what you do. But if Forbes and Fox and people and they're like, this is the lifestyle brand person who knows how to change your business, that moves the needle. That's a third party endorsement from a reputable outlet that is going to tell people, Glynis knows what she's doing. And that eight or nine or 15 touches whatever we're at before you close a sale, the media reduces that down to three. It turns cold leads to warm leads like that, and it's free.
Glynis Tao
Right. Okay. So I feel like this is part of the misconception out there of what PR really is. Publicity versus paid media, right? Like there's paid media, like ads, paying for ads, but the PR you're talking about is free. It's publicity. It's earned media versus paid media.
KJ Blattenbauer
Yeah, you earn it with your experience, earn it with your expertise, you earn it by pitching yourself and putting yourself out there. You know, the Super Bowl is this week. I don't have any skin in that game. I don't work with any of the big brands that have ads. I don't make the ads. I don't deal with the NFL, you know? I'd probably be having this podcast from a bigger house if I did, but I've been on the radio 16 times in the last two days talking about branding and positioning and why people are spending $8 million for 30-second Super Bowl ads. And it isn't even about having the ad in the Super Bowl. It isn't even about getting people to buy what they're advertising in the Super Bowl. It's about building rapport leading up to the Super Bowl so that they can be in everyone's living room, because the Super Bowl is one of the last places where people don't skip ads when they're watching television. So it's literally a two week runway that they run these ads before the paid spot they get for the Super Bowl. And yes, is $8 million ridiculous? Of course it's ridiculous, but it's the perception. If people are sharing, talking about, you're using you in memes, having you on social media. If you're in a conversation where normally your brand wouldn't be a conversation with a certain group of people, it's because the Super Bowl is getting you in their living room. That's the success of those ads. That actually, so it's an ad buy, it's marketing, but the perception leading up to it and how they spin that is the public relations, the free part, how you control the conversation.
Glynis Tao
Right, because I mean, there's so much talk around the ad itself, right? It becomes an actual event and maybe some people don't even watch the game or only there for a halftime show and see what those sponsored media ads are going to be. That's interesting. Like, what's the biggest PR myth that you wish founders would stop believing?
KJ Blattenbauer
That they need to be famous six or seven figure earners. That it's nice to have an addition for their business at the end. That it's so expensive it needs to wait till they get to a certain part. It's literally free. Outside of paying for a publicist or like $19.99 for my book or maybe a 99 cents for the ebook version, public relations is free channels. The news doesn't have a news hour if they don't have any stories to cover. Right? A magazine doesn't go to print if it doesn't have people to feature. Podcasts can only survive on solo host podcasting for so long. That's why so many of them end so quickly. They need experts. You're an expert. It's free to be on these outlets. You can just reach out and put yourself out there.
Glynis Tao
So like you just touched on that a lot of people think that PR only for big brands or maybe people with massive followings. What do you say to that? Like for the small founder who's just listening today and thinking that maybe PR is too expensive. That's maybe my mindset around it. I always thought I have to be at a certain level to start to hire PR, but from what you're saying, I think you don't necessarily need to hire an expensive PR person. How do you work normally? Do you take sort of a consulting advising approach plus DIY or somebody who says they want to DIY their? Is it possible for someone to do that and still get good results?
KJ Blattenbauer
It's 1000% possible for someone to DIY their PR. I have freebies on my website. If they go to hearsaypr.com/freebie, I have tools that will literally walk you through here's how to convert your messaging, here's a pitch checklist, go do. You don't have to spend a dollar to get started. My new book, Pitchworthy, is literally how to DIY public relations. The pink version of the book is gonna explain every single thing about PR and have some exercises. The white version of the book is literally a workbook that would walk you through the step-by-step process that I've used for almost 30 years to help brands grow. But you don't even need to purchase those. If you can sit down and rewrite your sentence like we did for you, just to who you are, what you do, why it matters to your target audience right now with their pain point, then you can go do this thing called use the Google machine and you type in what your industry is, or you type in what your area of focus is. Put that in Google, you hit the search button, and where it says “Images”, my favorite tab of shopping, there's the next one and it says “News”. That news tab is gonna show you every single outlet that's ever written about what you're searching about. So you can start building your media list there. If you click on those outlets, it's gonna give you exactly the reporter who's writing about you. Sometimes you'll get lucky and you'll click on there and you'll have the reporter's address. Other times you'll have to do another Google search to back end it or sign up for a service like rocketreach.com. Pay a dollar a month and you can get like five or six email addresses of reporters. You don't need a media list of 5,000 people. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars buying a media list. You can find one for free doing a little Googling, which let's be honest, we're all FBI-level sleuths when we really wanna find something. If you do that and build a media list of five to 10 people and you send five to 10 pitches in the next two months, it can change the trajectory of your business. But also it's free. You rewrote your sentence, you started your media list, and then you just send a pitch. It's five, seven sentences. Hi, my name is Glynis. Use your line about what you do. Here's what I'm seeing in the marketplace. Here's how it benefits your readers, listeners, whoever you're pitching at that moment. Write the second and why I think I should come on your show, podcast, right now. That point in time, here's my contact information. Send it. If you don't hear back in five to seven days, I forward on that same email. I change the FW and the forward subject line to follow up. Then it's one more sentence. Hi. Checking in again. One more pain point you can address right this second why it matters to their audience. Let me know if you want to chat. Let it sit for another seven, 10 days. Follow up a third time. Same formula. If you don't hear back after that third one, and it's very rarely you won't hear back after that third one, the reporter's either extremely busy. Maybe they're not interested in that angle. Maybe you don't have the right reporter, but you tried. So then you try a different angle. You try a different reporter. You keep doing it.
No or no response is not rejection. It is data for you to understand things. Like literally, what's the worst thing someone's going to do if you pitch them? It's not saying no, it's saying nothing. You're already at no by not reaching out to anybody. Pitching them and having them say no just tells you, okay, not right now, not the right angle, not the right person. Go find the right angle, the right person, the right timing. That's what it is. It's an adventure. And I think so many people are scared. They think that there's like a 55-year-old white man in a business suit smoking a cigar on the other end waiting for an email to come across and the second it does, he's just going to hit reject and delete it. When the truth is, reporters, journalists, editors, podcasters, they're just like you and I. They're busy. They're getting tons of emails. They might not have seen your email. It might not be a good fit for them. They might not have the description very well on their podcast or their website or anything else. So maybe it's their fault you didn't clearly pitch them what they needed to hear, right? No one's going to be mean to you. They're not going to come to your home. They're not going to laugh at what your pitch is. No, they will be busy. I have reporters I've worked with for years. They never respond to my first email, but I get a 75 percent return rate on my second. And it's because I follow up and so many people do not follow up. I'm begging people. Pitch, follow up, put yourself out there, gather the data and keep building.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Do you have any sort of recommendations on how long a pitch should be? How long does it need to be, actually? I always hear from lots of words to like few sentences.
KJ Blattenbauer
Think of the emails you like to read. I'm an email skimmer. If it's War and Peace, I'm not reading it. A journalist gets 16 times the amount of emails I do a day. They're not reading it. Five to seven sentences, more than enough. Two to three actually would be ideal if you can be that succinct about stuff. Like I see a lot of those podcast pitching services and their paragraphs and I'm trying to teach my interns, hey, they don't need the full bio. They don't need the full paragraph. They don't need the description. Like, this is not War and Peace. Certain people think that you should pitch, it should be long, you should include everything because you never talk to that reporter again. No, that becomes that meme, like, saying, sorry that happened to you or happy for you. I'm not reading all that. You know, it's two to three sentences, five to seven sentences max. Who you are, what you do, why it matters, write the second to their audience and why they need to talk about it or with you immediately. It's urgency and timing.
Glynis Tao
And so I guess more times you reach out and perhaps the better likelihood of getting a response if you happen to catch someone or their attention at the right time if they're looking for a particular topic and you're the subject matter that happens to show up. But if you don't pitch you have zero chance.
KJ Blattenbauer
But even like yours, okay, so Valentine's Day is coming up. I wouldn't normally associate that with SEO or what you do, but the secret weapon to helping people fall in love with your fashion brand, yeah, SEO, GEO, it's what people need. It's a love language. There are a lot of business outlets that are looking for unique spins on, well, it's the timing. People are all about Valentine's Day. Forbes isn't putting out a “Here's 17 Business Gifts to Give Your Valentine.” No, but let's worry about yours. “The Hottest Way to Get People to Fall in Love With Your Brand This Valentine's Day.” “Have you checked your SEO?” “Do you even know what it is?” That's going to get someone's attention.
Glynis Tao
Wow, I never even thought of that. So already you've given me such a great idea. I can take and run with it. And another thing I guess for me too is what's holding me back from reaching out is my fear of rejection. Like you said, if you don't try it's an automatic no. I'm just wondering sort of what's the response rate that you usually see people come with a cold pitch? And also other platforms, like have you used Help a Reporter Out? Are those even worth using?
KJ Blattenbauer
I used to use Help a Reporter Out. About four years ago, I stopped. They changed the platform. The original owner sold it off to someone else, and the other person, I think, drove it to the ground. Now you have to pay for it. It's no longer free. It's no longer a great resource. The good thing is, Peter, the founder of the original Help a Reporter Out, started a new one, and it's called SourcesofSources.com. It's free. I highly, highly recommend it. Twice a day, you're going to get an email split up by industries of reporters, editors, journalists. They are looking for experts. And it's as simple as answering these three questions, maybe your website, maybe they want an image, you get it back to the person by a deadline. You don't even have to interact with the person. You're literally just sending them something. If they use you, great, make sure you have a Google alert set because they're not gonna get back to me like, hey, you're gonna be featured tomorrow unless they need more in-depth interview from you. But it's an easy, easy way to do it.
There's also places like Founder where you can go put your expertise in a database and people who are looking for experts can find you. Or you can search through their stuff and become quoted. I've had clients everywhere from Time Magazine to Forbes, Martha Stewart, even Architectural Digest, just by being in those two outlets alone. So those are two really great free ones.
Another really good one that I love is Authority Magazine. Yitzi has done such a great job of producing, I think they have like 366 running storylines at any time. You submit for one based on an industry that might appeal to you or maybe numerous ones. They send you 12 questions, you answer them. They literally after reviewing it, if it makes sense for them, they think it's good, they think you're reputable and know what you're talking about. Copy paste your answers. You have your first press hit. You're already building a press page. That's all you need. You just need one to get things rolling, shake the nerves off to go and do.
Yep. And what's great about magazines, it's a feeder for Buzzfeed. It's a feeder for Entrepreneur. It's a feeder for Forbes. It's cool to start getting yourself established if that's where your target audience is.
Glynis Tao
And speaking of tie-in with SEO, link building builds authority as well and getting a backlink from a higher authority source. I feel like PR and SEO sort of go hand in hand together if you think about it.
KJ Blattenbauer
Truly, truly, yeah, they can only help each other. But also if you're a local business, your local newspaper, your local TV station. Every local TV station has a morning show or something that runs mid-afternoon that only focuses on local business. If you are a local business and you haven't pitched yourself to that, what are you doing? That's literally their job. Help them do their job. Show them that you exist.
Glynis Tao
So I see there's a copy of your book, Pitchworthy, there behind you. Is that the newest book that just came out?
KJ Blattenbauer
Yep.
Glynis Tao
The pink cover?
KJ Blattenbauer
The pink cover is the book book and it will walk you through everything about public relations and it gives you a pep talk. So many of us don't feel like we have a story, nothing to talk about. So it basically gives you the steps plus permission. Here's how to use public relations. And then it was so well received. People loved it and they said, hey, there's exercises, but I want to know, how do I do the work? Like people were showing me broken spines. They'd written on every page. They had post-its falling out of it. And I said, all right, like I've heard you guys. I've heard you. So I pulled a few all-nighters and I put together the white version. The white version is the workbook and it literally is step-by-step. Here's your brand words. Here's how we're building your messaging. Here's how we're building your media list. Here's how a media kit goes together. Here's all the exercises you need to think about. It's everything that's been in my head for decades.
Glynis Tao
That sounds like a dream. I mean, get your 30 years knowledge all packaged into this really nice looking book, by the way. So I think I'm going to go and buy it after I get all this call with you. Is it on Amazon?
KJ Blattenbauer
Yep, they're both on Amazon. I just think it's so important for your listeners to know there's nothing wrong with their product, their service, their business or brand. They might just have a visibility leak like we talked about in the beginning, just how they're talking about and positioning themselves for other people to know them, to like them, to buy from them. Messaging tweaks will dramatically change your business because building authority is about clarity. It's about who's raising their hand and making it clear. Here's what I do. Here's how you buy from me. Here's how you shop with me. Here's what we offer. That's what sets brands you've heard of apart from brands that you will never hear from.
Glynis Tao
And so for a founder who is listening right now and feels unseen or invisible and starting to lose, they're feeling discouraged. What do you want them to know?
KJ Blattenbauer
I want them to know that visibility isn't vanity, it's a leadership skill. How you position yourself, how you position your business or brand, that shows the world how to talk about you in rooms you're not in. That shows your target customer how to buy from you. Don't be afraid to speak up. Don't let your work speak for itself. Choose your passion, use your voice, tell people what you do nonstop, because that's the way that your brand goes from good to great and how you keep building your business year after year.
Glynis Tao
Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
KJ Blattenbauer
My website's hearsaypr.com. That's H-E-A-R-S-A-Y-P-R.com. And then KJ Blattenbauer, K-J-B-L-A-T-T-E-N-B-A-U-E-R on Instagram.
Glynis Tao
Instagram and LinkedIn as well, I would assume they want to reach out to you there. So thank you so much, KJ, for joining me today and I really appreciate that clarity and practical perspective that you bring into publicity and PR.
Elizabeth Solomeina, co-founder of Flying Solo, shares her insights on the challenges independent designers face in the fashion industry. She emphasizes the importance of a sustainable approach to growth, the need for strategic planning before expanding into international markets, and the value of press exposure in building brand credibility. Elizabeth also discusses the significance of separating personal identity from creative work and offers practical advice for designers feeling stuck in their journey. The conversation concludes with an exciting announcement about the upcoming Flying Solo Awards, aimed at recognizing talent in the fashion industry.
About Elizabeth Solomeina
Elizabeth Solomeina is the co-founder and managing director of Flying Solo, an innovative fashion platform with flagship stores in New York City and Paris. Since 2016, she's built a space created for designers, by designers, supporting 250+ independent brands through retail, runway shows in Paris, New York, and Milan, and meaningful editorial exposure. Elizabeth is also a designer herself, which means she understands firsthand the challenges creators face when talent alone isn't enough to build a sustainable business. Flying Solo has been called the future of retail.
The slow journey is the most sustainable one for designers.
Independent designers often face challenges in scaling their businesses.
Press exposure is crucial for building brand credibility.
Designers should avoid overproduction to maintain cash flow.
Understanding different markets is essential for international expansion.
Feedback from customers is vital for product development.
A business mindset is necessary for success in fashion.
Designers should separate their identity from their creations.
The first two years of a fashion business can be particularly challenging.
Flying Solo aims to celebrate unseen talent in the fashion industry.
Interview Themes
What should independent designers know before expanding internationally?
Expanding internationally means adapting to a new culture, not just selling in a new location. Customer preferences, sizing, materials, and buying habits often differ significantly from one market to another, and operational systems such as taxes, labor laws, and logistics can be complex. Designers should take time to research, test the market, and prepare financially before committing major resources. Sustainable international growth requires patience, flexibility, and a willingness to learn.
What is the most common early-stage mistake emerging brands make?
Overproduction. Designers manufacture too much to reduce per-unit costs, tying up cash flow in unsold inventory. It’s better to produce small runs, test demand, and scale gradually — even if margins are thin at first.
How should independent designers approach pricing?
Pricing should start with market positioning rather than just production costs. Designers need to research comparable brands, understand their target customer, and determine where their product fits in the market. From there, they can work backward to ensure manufacturing costs and margins support marketing, operations, and profit. A thoughtful pricing strategy reflects both brand value and long-term sustainability.
How do you drive consistent sales today?
Consistent sales come from treating fashion as a business, not only as a creative outlet. Strong financial planning, clear positioning, and steady customer relationship building are essential for long-term growth. Early customers should be nurtured carefully, as repeat buyers often become loyal advocates. When creativity is supported by business strategy, brands are better positioned to grow steadily over time.
Chapters
00:00 The Slow Journey to Sustainable Fashion
02:11 The Birth of Flying Solo
08:57 Understanding International Retail Challenges
13:21 Finding the Right Fit for Flying Solo
16:08 Strategic Moves for Brand Expansion
21:11 The Importance of a Sustainable Approach
22:49 Navigating Press and Publicity
29:24 Leveraging Press for Sales Momentum
35:38 Business Mindset for Designers
39:19 Advice for Stuck Designers
42:19 Future Initiatives and Awards
Transcript
Elizabeth Solomeina
It will be a slow journey at the beginning and it's fine, but the slow journey is the most sustainable one. Too many times designers get excited over produce and as a brand they will not even last two years. So that is the very sad truth about a lot of independent brands. I'm a designer myself. I want everything right now. I overspent so much money on my first collections because I wanted real golden diamonds. I wanted the best possible production. I obviously bet it on myself and produced more than I could sell at the time. So I made all of those mistakes. So trust me from both independent designer myself and someone who watched design after design after design every single day what challenges they face. Just trust me and try to avoid it. You'll thank me later.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Today's guest is someone who's truly reshaping how independent designers show up, get seen, and grow in the fashion industry. Elizabeth Solomeina is the co-founder and managing director of Flying Solo, an innovative fashion platform with flagship stores in New York City and Paris. Since 2016, she's built a space created by designers for designers, supporting more than 250 independent brands through retail runway shows in Paris, New York, and Milan and meaningful editorial exposure.
Elizabeth is also a designer herself, which means she understands firsthand the challenges creators face when talent alone isn't enough to build a sustainable business. Flying Solo has been called the future of retail and in today's conversation, we're diving into what that actually means from reinventing retail and visibility to building community without losing the soul of the business. If you're a designer, founder or creative entrepreneur trying to grow without selling out, this episode is for you.
Let's get into it. Welcome, Elizabeth. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Elizabeth Solomeina
Of course, Glynis. It’s so nice to talk to you today.
Glynis Tao
So you're both a jewelry designer and a retail platform founder. Take us back to the moment you realized Flying Solo needed to exist. What problem were you personally trying to solve?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Absolutely. So I started as a jewelry designer and I still am a jewelry designer even though Flying Solo takes the majority of my time at the moment. Any independent designer can relate to the problem that you grow a little bit. You created something and people start liking it. You start getting a few customers here, a few customers there, then you start growing your customer base. Now all of a sudden you start getting repeated customers, people here and there start talking about you. So you grow to a certain size to prove that your concept is needed, that people respond positively to it, and that they're willing to spend money on your beautiful accessories or clothing.
Then it comes to a point when you just don't know how to grow further because you either have to open your own store, which at that point, normally designers just don't have enough cash flow to do so, or you have to go wholesale. Again, when the wholesale sounds like something that you produce and they buy, reality is you have to finance everything upfront and with a lot of stores currently, not paying for wholesale and a lot of other problems that are happening within that industry. It's really hard for independent brands to go that route.
So turns out I wasn't alone with my problem. I always wanted to be the designer that is featured in Vogue and Harper's and a presentation during Fashion Week and runway shows and being in stores in Soho. Yeah, I was also dreaming about Paris, but how do you get there? That was the question that I asked myself many, many times together with my sister who is my co-founder in a jewelry brand. And then I met a lot of other independent brands that faced the same exact problem, that were all looking for the solution. So we basically were all looking for Flying Solo and it didn't exist at the time. It happens naturally. We first decided to do a few pop-up stores here and there and the concept was proving itself. So we all were very much in a collaborative spirit running those stores. First it was 10 of us, then when we opened our first flagship stores it became 30, then it's 50, then 100. Now we have over 250 designers at any given point.
Reality is we were all designers. So the very core founding members of Flying Solo are designers themselves. We knew what problems we had to solve and we're just simply solving it for ourselves. Of course, retail was the first immediate need because as an independent brand, what we all realized is the first need is not just to get to a retail store, but you need to be able to experiment with your collection.
Let's say you bring something and certain pieces are selling, certain pieces are not selling. If you go the traditional wholesale route, most likely only a few of your pieces of the collection sold, that will be it for you for that store. They'll never purchase from you ever again and you'll be just done. What independent designers really need is to bring that collection and say, hey, those few pieces are working for me. How do I build the next season on that? Or maybe I have the capability just to change it right away because customers say it's too tight on the shoulders, but otherwise they love it. The color is not what they're looking for, but maybe in a different color and they'll purchase it. So you start experimenting and bringing those pieces and little by little people start buying more and more. And that's how you build an actual brand.
And on top of it, very quickly we’ve come to realize that press is something that we all needed. You've been featured in a magazine, now everybody knows about you and runs to buy your pieces. I mean, unfortunately, or fortunately, press doesn't have that pull anymore because we are all bombarded with the social media and all the fashion starts living in the digital space. But when you are featured in a big magazine like Vogue, Harper's, L’Official, just to name a few, you start having a different status all of a sudden for a customer. All of your potential customers start seeing you differently. You know, just a cute little brand that they discover. Now someone who's been approved by the industry, it's a very big step for an independent brand. We saw it ourselves how pieces might be really great just displayed in Flying Solo, but once they get that editorial coverage, all of a sudden people say, oh, the brand posted that and this item was featured in Harper's. Can you take a look at it? And all of a sudden everybody is just interested in that particular item because they already have that industry approval behind it. So we started doing press for us, first of all, and then a bunch of other designers joined. And yes, it's been an interesting ride. We started Fashion Week half a year into Flying Solo. So we opened in, a little more than that, we opened in June of 2016. Our first runway show was February 2017. So we did our first big runway show. Honestly, even though we had so much excitement, I think only a few of us knew what the runway show really takes to produce. And thank God we somehow collaborated together and pulled it off the first time around. We did so many shows after that. I believe this New York Fashion Week, the upcoming one in a week from now will be our 46th show in total. So we did quite a bit. So we learned, we grew. Now we showcase over 70 brands in any given show and we made sure to organize it for designers the way that we want it to be organized. So all the production is taken care of. You as a brand just bring your collection and showcase it to the world. We'll take care of the rest. So that's the beginning of Flying Solo.
Glynis Tao
So, since then you've helped hundreds of brands, designers enter markets like New York and Paris. What do most emerging brands misunderstand about international retail before they try to expand?
Elizabeth Solomeina
You don't know what you don't know. The big thing is you might be successful in your own market and it's great. But first, what you're going to learn is that the taste of a customer is different in a different market. It absolutely doesn't mean that your brand should not go to a different market. It just most likely means that you have to adjust to that. Maybe different SKUs start selling better in a different market. You need to think of multiple things, including weather, including body shapes, which are very different. For example, European body shape average is very different from American body shape average and I'm not just talking about the size that Americans normally sell are bigger sizes, but also the shape itself. So in the US, for example, we have a bigger ratio between waist and hip, for example, that's much more normal compared to Europeans where the ratio is much smaller. So all of those things will impact how your clothing and accessory things will be selling in that market. Also, there are preferences in materials. For example, Europe cares much more about materials compared to the US. They want to make sure that it's natural. In terms of jewelry, they would rather buy solid silver than something gold-plated compared to the US that would rather buy gold plated than to leave it silver because shiny is better.
It's just part of a different culture. None of it is good or bad. You need to understand people. And I'll give you, I just gave you just a few examples about how different things are, but reality is so much more. And the only thing that you can do is come to the market, your collection, and see what's working, what's not working and adjust as we go. And please don't be discouraged if all of a sudden you were a successful brand somewhere else, like in maybe in your own country and came to a different market and all of a sudden nothing is selling. You know the failure. You just need to remember that even in your market you started somewhere. You started somewhere where no one knew you, no one cared about you and little by little you start building there.
Both the US and Europe are really amazing markets, but it takes time to get here. And with that said, even when the brand has enough capital to open their own stores, I advise you not to go this route at the beginning. You will do it at some point if you set for it and it's incredible. Then you can build your own store and decorate it however you see fit and all of those things and train your own sales staff and all of those, that's incredible. But at the beginning, you have so many challenges in your market that you simply don't know. You don't know the tax system. You don't know how to open the company. You don't know the banking system. And we went from the US market to the European market. And trust me, it is so different. Things that you never expect will be an issue became an issue. Things that do not exist. An issue that doesn't exist in the US, exists in Europe and vice versa.
If you sat on bringing physical retail, it's way easier to experience through us, for example, and see, okay, these things we learn and then we're ready to open our own store, which we had brands that did that. You grow sustainably, you experiment, you don't spend much money on rent, you don't need to train your own staff, you don't need to deal with taxes, with legislations, with all the laws that go within the country and if you don't know, just might do something that will not be good for your business. So you avoid all that and concentrate on your collection. Once you figure that out and learn how it works, then you're most likely ready to open your own store and that will be great. But in the meanwhile, just test it out. Trust me, everybody who went the other way and they came back to us, they're like, why didn't they just do it right away? I just simply do not understand.
Glynis Tao
Can you walk us through what Flying Solo looks for when deciding whether a brand is a good fit for your New York or Paris location?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Absolutely. So we always look for a unique point of view. So something that we have never seen before, the originality of the designs. And I would like to emphasize that we did take, obviously we take designers that are experienced already. So they’ve been in their business for multiple years. So maybe they are established in Europe and want to come to the US, but we also historically took a few very young brands. The ones that literally brought their sample collection and then we were able to grow together. One of the most incredible brands like this that literally came to us on the second month of the operation. Like Flying Solo was month one of operations and they were months too. So both baby brands. And the brand is APPARIS and now they stayed with us for a little over three years and they left when they started doing wholesale business with Saks and Bloomingdale. Now they are in Printemps, New York and they just had an incredible journey and grew very sustainably through us. But again, we took them in when they didn't know what they're doing. I mean, they admitted and they went through multiple iterations and it's a very good example how you need to think of yourself when you're starting a brand that you just don't know what you don't know and most likely it will take a lot of pivoting.
So for example, APPARIS started with shoes, then the ready-to-wear collection, then they realized that out of the entire ready-to-wear collection, only their vegan outerwear fur works and then they became known for outerwear that is vegan and majority vegan fur. So that became their niche. That's what they're known for. That's their core value right now. But again, they started with shoes and they just started seeing like what's, you know, what's working, what's not. And it took them a while, but you know, they figured out their big brand now and we're still really good friends with founders. So funny enough, their offices are very nearby Flying Solo. So we're running each other quite often and we’re so happy for them and how their journey unfolded.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and you you’re all part of their success, which must feel really nice for you to see them as, you know, coming out as a new emerging designer and then now being so well known and successful. You were part of that journey.
So what are one or two strategic moves designers can make before expanding their brands, either internationally or just growing as a business that will dramatically increase their chances of success?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Well, you need to be ready because the new market will always take more money than you think it will. And it's very normal. So make sure that you're in a good position because no matter how sustainably you expand, it's still going to be an investment on your side as a brand.
Also, I highly advise not to overproduce ever. The urge for any brand is obviously to bet on yourself, to believe that whatever you just created is the most beautiful collection in the world that we've seen and it will be sold out. Reality, no one gets it right from the first time around. I think even the third or the fifth time around is very challenging to get it right. So the first time around when you did your samples and then you come to the manufacturer, they will say something along the lines like, hey, if you're only going to do 10 pieces, it will cost you $100 per piece. But if you make 100 pieces, it will only cost you $30 per piece. So very naturally designers always say, hey, if I'm making it only for $100, they even make any money on any sale, barely any, but if you manufacture for $30, then I'll make a much better margin, so might as well produce 100. That’s the first biggest mistake that any designer is going to make. I saw it over and over and over and over again when designers stuck with a warehouse full of their samples because the first time around, you don't know the manufacturer, but maybe they did an amazing result and everything was perfect, but that's not a given. Second, they might screw up your sizing. So maybe you thought that the sizing actually worked for your client in this market, but it just doesn't. Maybe you produce too small, maybe you produce too large, maybe it just doesn't fit the waist-hip ratio, whatever that is, it just doesn't fit the customer. Everybody might love it, but it's like, well, it doesn't fit me. It might still be very expensive for the client or so many other challenges need to be considered. So first, even if it's very expensive for you per item, produce as little as possible and bring that to the market. Bring it in front of the real customer. You might just do a small pop-up in front of your friends first and say, hey, this is my 10 pieces. I produce two of each and try it on, see if you want to buy it. They most likely at least give you feedback even if they're not going to buy, say, hey, I love this, but it really doesn't fit or I absolutely love it. Okay, here's my money, let me buy it. So this is a friends and family route. That will be your first one.
Then you can go to a little bigger crowds. You can apply to be a part of Flying Solo or you can do your own pop-ups for a bigger audience. So do something for a few days. Get someone else's place, get more people, invite them for cocktails or something. Again, try to see how they react to it. Since it's no longer friends and family, try to see what they're actually buying. Everybody wants to be nice to you because you're a founder, you put a lot of sweat and tears and soul into your creations. Reality is if they actually purchase it, it's a very good sign. So it means that the product market fit is there. And then you can go to bigger places again. Flying Solo could be one of places that you can go, but you can go other routes as well. So see what's actually working and produce little by little.
What I suggest to designers, the rule of thumb is even if you barely break even on your first production, so let's say you produce for $100 and with everything else that you had to pay for the drinks for the cocktail hour and for your friends space somewhere, you barely made any money or made zero on this. This is still a very good result. Now you learn out of 10 pieces, maybe five are selling or two are selling. And then you invest in production of those that actually sold and the rest you don't need to produce. So you won't be stuck with the warehouse of items.
On top of it, don't scale right away. So don't go from two to a hundred again. Do little by little. The very first group of your clients are most likely just your fans. Somehow they like you, maybe they like your personality, maybe they are friends of a friend, which is great. I mean, this is your first demographic of the ones that really like you. But then you will start expanding and it will be other people who might not be so kind to you and might be saying, I don't like myself in it. So things like that you need to consider. It will be a slow journey at the beginning and it's fine. But the slow journey is the most sustainable one. Too many times designers get excited, overproduce and as a brand, will not even last two years.
So that is the very sad truth about a lot of independent brands. I'm a designer myself. I want everything right now. I overspent so much money on my first collection because I wanted real golden diamonds. I wanted the best possible production. I obviously bet on myself and produced more than I could sell at the time. So I did all of those mistakes. So trust me from both independent designer myself and someone who watched design after design after design every single day and what challenges they face. So just trust me and try to avoid it. You'll thank me later.
Glynis Tao
I think everything you said was great advice and a lot of things that I hear is common amongst new brands and startups who tend to spend too much money in the beginning on inventory. Perhaps, they overproduce and all their cash flow is tied up, right? That is correct. And imagine that a lot of your brands are self-funded brands.
Elizabeth Solomeina
We do have a lot of self-funded brands. We also have brands that are a little bit on the bigger size. So they might already have a few stores in Europe, like their own stores, and they're going to, for example, to the US market. Or sometimes they even have stores in Europe, but they go to the French market through us because the French market is notoriously hard to deal with, with all their labor laws and a lot of other challenges that I don't even want to get into. Today, there are a lot of challenges to open your own company and run it there. So a lot of people just simply want to avoid it and just outsource this, that part of operations to us.
Glynis Tao
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so you help them with that. Sounds like there's also a coaching component, a mentoring aspect to your business model, and on top of that, giving them space, right, a platform to sell their products. So yeah, like you mentioned, the one thing that designers often get wrong is overproduction. The second thing is pricing. So they're pricing their products properly for the market because in the beginning they just don't what. So is that something that you also help the designers with?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Yeah, well, we always say that it's up to them to put their first pricing based on their knowledge. But then once we see market reaction, we will advise them what people are saying and it is completely up to them what they want to do with this feedback. Because what everybody needs to realize, we only suggest something based on actual customer feedback.
I'll give you a really good example of how I personally, internally was probably very wrong and I never voiced my advice, but if I would, I would be completely wrong. We had an incredible brand for a very long time with us, Fiona Franchimon. And she'd been in both the New York and Paris stores. Right now, she grew to the point when she's in Galeries Lafayette in Paris and that's basically why she left us because she expanded too big. What she is as a brand is a tiny plastic hair accessory. So it's something between a pin and it's very cleverly made. It was basically, I don't remember the exact price, but it's somewhere about $25, $30 for one plastic clip. And when we receive it, we always have a policy of testing the product first in front of the customers and then giving feedback. Too expensive or maybe too cheap or whatever they say, so we'll give them feedback. And I was like, oh my God, this is like, it was only an internal thing. And I was like, oh my God, this is expensive for one thing. I was like, I hope she'll sell, but you know, in my opinion, in my limited research. What happened is what I didn't realize is she created a very unique thing. So the way it holds the hair was very unique. She was a hairstylist herself, so it didn't come from nowhere. And she created a lot of awareness around her brand. through bloggers and social media and things like that. So that was our best selling product in the beauty category for quite a bit. So it was just tons of people constantly, like, I heard that you sell Fiona Franchimon. Let me try it on. And as soon as they tried, they realized how good the thing is because they actually, kind of half of them didn't believe that it's going to work the way bloggers who presented like how easy it is. They come to the store, like, let me try it. Oh my God, it really works. I need to buy it. And she sold like sets of three and five and whatever the sets were. So I'm just saying like, we do not give that a feedback ahead of time because we only rely on the market.
Regarding the pricing and educational part in general, we do do quite a bit of education now and we posted on our YouTube channel, it's called Flying Solo TV. I talk a lot about different topics, but I repeat a few things like in a recent one that I did on pricing. So there are two ways of pricing. The first way, the most traditional way for how majority designers price it and it's basically manufacturing cost. That includes labor and materials and whatever else goes into production. Multiply by 2 is wholesale price, multiply by 2.5 is retail price. So basically if your production is 100, then the wholesale is 200, then your retail is 500. Simple. If you're never looking to go wholesale, then you multiply by three. But I do not think that in the age we live right now, this is the very best way to price your item. I would say go the other way around.
So the other way to price your item is to do your market research first. So let's say you're an independent designer who is doing bags. Find a successful business and successful is the main word here. So find a bag brand that's already doing good business. You know that they're selling in those price points, visible for people and find a similar bag. I'm not saying that, not saying design wise, but more or less try to understand what's there for the consumer—how it will look the same, maybe the same type of size material. Let's say it's a work leather bag that can fit a laptop so the same more or less type of person will consider it and see what the price point is from that work backwards. So if you ever consider doing wholesale divided by five, not doing wholesale, which is a very good idea right now, just going direct to consumer is a much more sustainable way for a lot of younger brands right now. So then divide it by three. And I'm saying by three because this way you allow yourself to have more marketing budget because you as an independent brand, if you go the online direct to consumer route, you need quite a bit of margins to support all the outreach that you're going to do, whether it's through Instagram ads, Facebook ads, whatever ads you're going to do, bloggers, whatever else.
So let's say your target price is 300, then you need to figure out, and that will be your job to figure out how to manufacture it up to 100. Lower if possible, but 100 should be your maximum price if you're never going to do wholesale. Then one third will be most likely your marketing budget and you'll have some logistics and whatever, and then the rest will be your profit. So that's how I advise all the brands to price their items right.
Glynis Tao
Great. I'm glad that you explained about your pricing strategies and the way that you see it and what is actually working because it can be a big challenge, I think, for a lot of brands. Just not even knowing how to price their products properly or understanding what the value of the product is.
So I just kind of want to switch to PR and publicity press exposure because you offer designers access to press and editorial exposure. So what do you see in terms of what separates designers who turn that exposure into momentum from those who don't?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Absolutely. So as I mentioned, at the moment that we live in, press is no longer just. It used to be 20 years ago. You open Vogue magazine, you sell something in it, you go in the store, see it and most likely purchase it. That's how it works right now. Right now, most likely you saw something on social media. That's how the majority of us will discover brands at the moment. Think of yourself as a customer. You're scrolling through Instagram, right? So you scroll and say, cute bag. All right, let me see him. Let me follow the brand. You go to the brand page and say, amazing designs. I like it. Price is good. And you need to see some kind of social proof that that brand is legit because you as a customer right now, you don't know. Maybe it's just a beautiful picture, but they will not ship it. Maybe it's terrible quality. So many questions will be in your head and for those designers who would argue saying like, hey, but we offer free returns. They can just order it and they'll return. It really doesn't work this way because just think of you as a customer. If you don't know the brand, you won't be just randomly ordering things.
You want to make sure that at least there is some kind of proof that it's a good brand. And that's when the press comes in. When you open the page and all of a sudden see that they've already featured in magazines. They've been in Harper's and Elle and other magazines. You saw it on their page, on the Instagram page. All of a sudden you start thinking, oh, they must be more established because otherwise how would editors hear about them? How would they even get to those editorials? Truly, there is a truth, a lot of truth in that because if you haven't been in the fashion game long enough, stylists would not know you. They will not pick you up for editorials, you will not be placed there. So there is already proof of how it went. And on top of it, it's a proof of the editor. The editor chose the picture, including, let's say, your bag, to be featured in their magazine. So that's the proof. And this way, it becomes much easier for a potential customer to buy.
On top of it, when you receive press, don't be shy about it. I always encourage all of our designers to just brag about it. It's your achievement. Your item went to the magazine and it got featured. So put it in your newsletter, put it on your wall in the office, in the frames like a lot of people do. It turns out they said that they sell a lot of things. Anywhere you can, maybe you go to a trade show after that, put it in the book. Maybe you are trying to offer your product to the stores to sell. Put it in. It works because even other stores are looking for the proof that you're already needed by someone else. No one wants to, I mean, very few people want to take a chance on a young unknown brand and God knows if they're going to sell. Everybody needs to make sure that you're going to sell in this this day. So that's how press works.
One thing that I want all of the brands to understand about press is there are a lot of press showrooms in New York and Paris and major cities. But unfortunately, the press showroom has a very bad reputation in general. Oftentimes when designers come to us, a lot of them are very skeptical about press and there is a reason for that. The reason is they've been to a few showrooms that told them that we're going to put you in all those magazines, all those celebrities half a year later after paying for six months, they get nothing. And their answer is that editors saw it, but they didn't like it. Showrooms normally work as if you've never been to one. It's a room full of racks where multiple designers are showcased. The stylist comes over and picks a few items, takes them to the photo shoot, and returns it back. If your item somehow is not appealing to their roster of talents that they have, it will just be there. And no showroom, at least in everybody who we knew about, never guaranteed any results, but we do. So we are Flying Solo. If any brand is signed up with us to be featured in our press show, we guarantee at least one editorial per month, and that's the very minimum. And the only way we do it is because we've been in the industry for 10 years, so we have a lot of friends in the industry that work with us. So it's happened from day one. We didn't promise it from day one.
Second, we collaborate on productions with magazines. So a lot of magazines co-produce photo shoots together with us. So this way we make sure that every designer that is a part of our press showroom, I mean, we have obviously a very big planning, it's very complex, but we know, okay, so we're shooting for this magazine and this type of editorial. So this and this and this and this brand will be a very good fit. So let's put it in front of this team so they can actually feature it. And this and this and this other brand will be a good fit for something else that we collaboratively shoot with another mix. And that's how we can guarantee that they will get those results that we need because really what breaks my heart about this industry, and I experienced it myself as a designer before flying, so everybody promised you the moon and then you pay the money and it's just not there. So we guarantee that and it also came from the needs from our designers because we know how important it is to get the press. But that's again just the beginning. What you do with this press is the most important thing because we deliver ourselves and then you are the one who has to go into the world and say, hey, my piece was featured there and there. And that will bring you a lot of results.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So you help them get there, get the press, but then what they do with that afterwards is on them, right? So from everything that you've seen across working with over 250 brands, what are those elements that you see that truly drives the consistency sales for a small fashion business today?
Elizabeth Solomeina
I would highly recommend any designer who is starting this game or in this game already. First, think about it as a business. So you're lucky if you have a business partner. So you're the creative side and you have someone who is in business. You're also lucky if somehow you happen to be business first and designer second. But if you consider yourself a true artist, you have to be careful here because fashion is not just about art. It's wearable pieces, the one that you have to consistently produce and consistently sell, and if your business has money, you can move forward. You can create a new collection. Even if, let's say, you make your money on the collection, but editors are not over the moon about your collection, but you still make money, you still have a customer base. So that's first. Then you can have the money to experiment and impress editors and impress the industry, but if you don't have money and you make something that is mega impressive and few people will feature it, you'll be done as a brand. So running out of money is the hardest, I mean, the saddest thing that can happen to the brand, but unfortunately the most common.
So you are a business first and every brand that was successful with us, they either had a co-founder that was in business or they literally said, I have never been a designer. I first was a businessman, a business woman and I just wanted to solve that problem that I had. Let's say I wanted to have the best work bag I can ever have and I went to a designer and we collaborated together and then I figured out how to manufacture it. So business first. And that's how I encourage everybody to think about it.
Glynis Tao
I think that's great advice just from myself talking with many founders and designers who have been in the industry and endured like decades in the business. And I just asked them, sort of like, what's the secret to your success and longevity? And they're like, well, they have that business support. If they are not, you know, experienced or business savvy, like themselves, they have someone that is. And typically how I see it is there is a designer who's the creative head, and then they have the business person and a marketing person. I see that as important elements in the business's success.
Elizabeth Solomeina
Exactly. And just to add to your thought, just as a designer, try to separate yourself from your creation because what happens really, and I experienced myself again, I'm a creative, I know exactly how it feels. Someone say, let's say says, I really don't like this drink. and you hear like, I don't like you, you are not good enough, you take it as part of you, your creation is an extension of you and you start, that's when the whole thing starts. So you are not your creation. You are a person and your creation is your creation. So separate them. And any critique, there'll be a lot of critique and there'll be a lot of people who don't like it. It's fine. You just need to get used to it and adjust as you go. Listen to the feedback, but not necessarily adjust to everything that you hear. So just separate yourself. Your life will be much easier.
Glynis Tao
I love that. And that kind of leads me to my final questions here before we wrap up. If you could give one piece of advice to a designer who feels talented but stuck right now, what would it be?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Absolutely. Well, first of all, go to the fashion industry only if you cannot do anything else. When you have the desire and to those who know what that is, you know exactly how it feels. I have this creation in me that needs to get out. You cannot imagine yourself doing anything else. So if you have this in you and I need to get out, I need to get out. So then start creating. But again, be business savvy and thoughtful of how you're going to do it at the beginning. Whatever your budget, even if you are really smart, it will take you three times more money than your budget initially. Just it is what it is. Just make sure that you have money in the bank. Maybe you have something else to support your business at the beginning. Maybe you work for someone else's design or however you make that additional income because it will be hard at the beginning, no matter how amazing your designs are. But that's when, that's what will separate the brands that are going to die within the first two years from the ones that succeed. The first two years of operations are hell. I mean, that might still be fun. You still might have a lot of celebrity wearing things. Maybe they right away start liking it, but it doesn't mean that you'll have a lot of sales. Maybe you'll have a lot of super fun parties like together with your friends and all dressed up, but it doesn't mean that you make sales. It might be on your lot and it's like, okay, if this one doesn't work, then I'm closing my business. I heard too many stories like this, but then just make sure to persevere through that part. And then once you figure out what you start figuring out, okay, this is one client, another client, another client, another client, you start building the database of your clients that constantly buy from you.
Season over season, they'll keep coming back for your items and they will be the ones, so appreciate them the most. They'll be the ones who'll be bringing their friends to your pop-ups. They'll be the ones who will be advocating on social media. That will be the one that will be posting your pieces on their own Instagrams, tagging you and saying, hey, this is the best thing ever. I know the person. They're incredible. The best quality, the best feed. Guys, look at it. It's not a paid promotion. I just love it.
So treat that first initial group very carefully, like one by one, it's fine. Don't expect it to be like hundreds of people right away know about it. If one more person likes your collection today and purchases from you and you maintain that collection, that might be a repeat customer over and over again. So don't underestimate it. Prepare for the first hard two years, I'm not saying they won't be fun, but it might be challenging otherwise. And then more likely you'll make it to the top.
Glynis Tao
Looking ahead, what excites you most about the future of independent fashion and the role Flying Solo will play in it?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Well, we have an incredible initiative called Flying Solo Awards, which is coming in June 2026 and it is open for everyone and applications are completely free. So what we decided to do is reward and showcase not just designers, everybody, including designers, but also photographers, hand makeup artists, set designers, the one that often goes unseen in the fashion industry.
So we'll celebrate those people. It will be an incredible gala with a big red carpet reception and we'll help those who deserve that. We already have incredible judges. We have Sophia Ellis-Bextor who is a British singer, as you know, that sings more on the dance floor. We have Stuart Trevor, who is the founder of AllSaints. We have Ty Hunter, who is Beyonce's stylist for 15 years. And many, many other incredible people that are already involved in the project.
If you're someone, including designers, we have the best editorial accessory and best editorial garment category. It’s a completely free application, please go to designer.flyingsolo.nyc/awards and apply within editorial where your products were featured or you were a stylist or set designer. We'll open the applications. We're open till the end of March. So hurry up and some people will be noticed and we'll give them that exposure that they really need.
Glynis Tao
Sounds amazing. I'll be sure to share that link with everybody in the show notes for this episode. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Elizabeth Solomeina
Absolutely. So our tag is flyingsoloNYCM. So we have a team that monitors all the comments and DMs and everything. And if you're looking to apply for Fashion Weeks or Flying Solo stores, there are links in the bio about how to do that. So feel free to get in touch.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for joining me here today and sharing your story and journey with us. I really appreciate it. so thanks for reaching out and thank you for being here.
Elizabeth Solomeina
Of course, Glynis, thank you so much. It was such an honor to be on this podcast and I absolutely love our conversation. I really hope that it will help designers around the world.
Orly Shani shares her journey from a DIY expert to the founder of ROCKNOT, a profitable and scalable fashion brand that specializes in everyday statement bags. She discusses the importance of profitability, storytelling in marketing, and the lessons learned from her DIY days. Orly highlights the significance of customer feedback in product development and the evolving nature of her brand, which aims to fill a unique gap in the handbag market. With exciting new products on the horizon, Orly reflects on the continuous journey of creativity and innovation in her business.
About Orly Shani
Orly Shani is a Los Angeles–based television host, personal style expert, and DIY innovator. Orly first gained the fashion world’s attention on NBC’s Fashion Star, where her designs were picked up by major retailers like H&M and Saks Fifth Avenue. She then went on to host and contribute to shows including E!’s The Fabulous, The Today Show, and Access Hollywood. As a lifelong DIYer and personal style expert, Orly founded ROCKNOT, a multi-million-dollar accessories brand known for its everyday statement bag system built around interchangeable straps, handbags, and accessories. Orly’s work blends creativity, practicality, and storytelling, turning everyday ideas into standout products, experiences, and profitable, scalable businesses.
Storytelling is crucial in marketing and customer engagement.
Personalization and individuality drive product design and customer satisfaction.
Encourage and adapt to customer feedback.
Quality customer service enhances brand value and customer loyalty.
Communication strategies will differ depending on the social media platform.
Interview Themes
How does storytelling strengthen customer engagement and brand loyalty?
Storytelling helps customers understand not just what a product is, but why it matters. When brands educate and demonstrate how their products fit into everyday life, it removes confusion and builds confidence. Clear, authentic storytelling creates trust that turns first-time buyers into loyal customers.
Why is focusing on profitability essential for long-term business success?
Revenue alone doesn’t build a sustainable business—profit does. When a brand is profitable, it can reinvest, grow strategically, and operate without relying on outside funding to survive. A healthy profit margin signals that the product delivers real value and that the business model is built to last.
How should brands approach customer feedback?
Customer feedback gives insight into how products are used and perform in real life. Brands that stay flexible, by starting small and iterating often, can adapt quickly and improve without unnecessary risk. Treating constructive criticism as data, not discouragement, allows businesses to refine their products, build trust, and deepen loyalty.
Why does customer service impact brand value?
Customer service shapes the full experience of owning a product. When support is responsive and thoughtful, customers feel secure in their purchase and confident in the brand. Strong service reinforces pricing, builds credibility, and turns transactional moments into long-term relationships.
Chapters
00:00 From Creativity to Business Success
10:39 The Birth of ROCKNOT: A DIY Idea to Business
28:54 Bootstrapping for Profitability in Fashion
39:50 The Power of Storytelling in Marketing
51:41 Lessons from DIY: Personalization and Individuality
53:17 Exciting Future Developments for ROCKNOT
Transcript
Orly Shani
I think that there's a lot of intangibles when it comes to how a customer feels about the value. And I think that like a huge piece of it is your quality and your customer service. I totally get it's a splurge, no problem. But I have such confidence in the price point now because of the value that we offer across all areas, the product, the experience you have when you're wearing it in your life, the intention that's put into it. So it's versatile and multifunctional and you're getting a lot of use out of it. The customer service, and the fact that, I think that's a big part of it. I really do. The product itself is only worth so much for the customer. There is a whole other experience that they have that you really have to think about. We're customers, we've all been there, we know what it feels like. the experience like you would want for yourself. It's easy. Imagine your mom shopping. How do you hope she's taken care of? Like, what do want that to look like? Your sister, your best friend. so I feel like to me that is absolutely the most important and that's big chunks that I feel like add to the value, of the product on a whole.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Glynis Tao
Today’s guest is someone who truly embodies what it looks like to turn creativity into a profitable, scalable business. Orly Shani first captured the fashion world’s attention on NBC’s Fashion Star where her designs were commissioned by major retailers like H&M and Saks Fifth Avenue. From there, she went on to host and co-host multiple fashion and entertainment shows, including E!’s The Fabulous, and became a familiar face as a style and DIY expert across platforms like The Today Show, E! News, and Access Hollywood.
But Orly didn’t stop at media success. As a lifelong DIYer and personal style expert, she noticed a gap in the market. Women wanted the glamour of a statement bag without the cost of impracticality. That insight led her to create ROCKNOT, an everyday statement bag system built around interchangeable straps, handbags, and accessories.
What started as a DIY idea has grown into a multi-million dollar brand bootstrapped, profitable, and built with intention. In this episode, we’re talking about what it really takes to go from idea to product market fit, how to build a fashion brand without chasing hype or funding, and why storytelling and clarity are just as important as great design. So let’s get into it.
Welcome Orly. It’s so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Orly Shani
It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Glynis Tao
Orly, I'm so excited to have you here. Your career spans television, fashion, DIY, and now a multi-million dollar product brand, which is not a typical path. And that's exactly why I wanted to talk to you. You've done everything from competing on Fashion Star to hosting major fashion shows and building a brand that solves a very real problem for women.
When you look back now, what do you see as the common thread that connects all those chapters and ultimately led you to ROCKNOT?
Orly Shani
God, that's a great question because it has been a journey of unexpected redirections. I did not plan to go from A to B to C to D. But I think that one of the things that I've realized has been a big piece of all of it. It has been my driving force behind all of it is my obsession with individuality and expressing who you really are and feeling really comfortable in your skin and not thinking or feeling like you are supposed to behave or think or look like anyone else.
I felt that when I was a kid. I had this desire to be my own person and carve my own path and I felt that as I started working, the content that I created was all about how can you communicate who you are? How do you own who you are fully and without apology so that you just feel completely comfortable and confident? And so I think that that was a lot of what I did when I was doing DIY work. It was empowering people to do that on a budget because obviously it's very expensive to go out and buy the thing that fits you just right and the this and the that and the style and the whatever. Some people have really expensive taste, and so DIY was a fun way to say like, “Okay, if you are deeply inspired by this really cool new whatever Louis Vuitton gown, let's find a way to take all of that fun inspo and turn it into a jacket that you could wear on a daily basis.” What are the elements that we could apply? How are the ways that we could do it on a budget?
Even when I had my personal style concept, which I still believe is going to become a book one day. I had a book agent and had all this stuff creating it and that's a whole long story. The show that I was cast on went away and then so did the book, which was devastating. But there’s this concept of style language—the idea that we each have a unique style language, almost like a love language. It's the unique way that we communicate who we are through our physical appearance and that's really specific to each of us. Even when I was doing that and doing the online course and working with women, it just was always about understanding who you are, owning it fully, and then showing up that way.
And that's exactly what ROCKNOT is all about as well. An accessory is such a fun thing that can be worn in an entirely different way, depending on who you are and how you style it, the rest of the clothes, the hair, the makeup, the location. It just feels like it's always been about that individuality and self-expression,
Glynis Tao
Your career really took off on Fashion Star. What did that experience teach you about designing for real customers versus designing for creativity or press?
Orly Shani
You know, I would actually argue my career took off with Fashion Star because I remember so vividly when the show was on NBC, right? It came after Project Runway and it was a huge show on a huge network with big names. Elle MacPherson hosted it and Jessica Simpson and Nicole Richie and John Barbados were our judges, kind of like mentors on The Voice. And H&M, Saks Fifth Avenue were the quote unquote judges because they would buy what we designed if they liked it and that was essentially them casting a vote. I remember when we were filming it, we had all of the producers being like, “Your life is never gonna be the same when this thing comes out. You better be ready.” Because it was like it had all the makings of a hit.
One of my closest friends from the show, this guy, Zamiro, who I became very good friends with. There was maybe like a six month gap between when we filmed the show and when the show was gonna come out because they had to actually produce all of the garments. The way that the show worked is the show would air and if, let's say, H&M bid on my piece at midnight, it was available to buy. So we needed that chunk of time for them to actually manufacture the goods, have them in store, and have imagery and all of those things. So we filmed it, six month gap, and then the show came out.
And in that time, I remember he and I, we both lived in New York City and I was a bartender and he would come into my bar all the time. That's how we stayed deeply connected. And I remember he and I being like, “When this thing comes out on Tuesday, I mean, are we even gonna be able to do this? Like, are we able to sit here at this bar? Like, what are we gonna… am gonna have quit my job? Like, what's gonna happen? Like our whole, like, we're gonna be famous. Like, we're gonna get stopped in the streets. We're gonna be taking… we can't take the subway anymore. Like, what are we doing?”
Glynis, that is not what happened, okay? I bartended straight through the entire airing of that show up until the finale, I was behind the bar working because not a damn thing changed. Nothing. No opportunities came.
Glynis Tao
I mean, did you even get recognized on the street?
Orly Shani
No. Nothing. None of those things happened. They had some press events and we went to press events and they made us feel special because we were the cast. They took our picture and did our thing. In real life, nobody gave a shit and nothing changed. Literally nothing changed. And I stayed bartending until how many years later?
I got pregnant with my son when we were living in the city and I was hired on season two of Fashion Star to be like a behind-the-scenes correspondent because they were basically like, “Season one wasn't a huge hit and we think it's because the show is too big. It's like shiny floor, big stage, big lights, big performances, and people aren't connecting to the designers in the way that they do intimately on Project Runway, which feels very intimate and it's a different experience.” And so they thought, we want to do a behind-the-scenes series that connects the two worlds together. And I had come out of season one, not as the winner, but as a bit of a fan favorite, according to them. So they were like, “You're the right person to be this voice because you're familiar from season one and you can kind of exist between these two worlds. And so I did a series for season two. I think it was about a year and a half later, on my first day of filming, I found out that I was pregnant and I did that. I filmed that show in LA.
As soon as that show was done, we moved from New York to LA and I stopped bartending. So like my whole career, there was nothing in the world of fashion that had come. I was bartending and then I got a job as a host. That then led me on this path of hosting and I was on E! and I had my own show on E! with Kristin Cavallari and I would do Fashion Police and Live from the Red Carpet and Live from New York Fashion Week. And then I was on this show called Home and Family and this career of me being an on-camera fashion style personality where those two things came together is what came out of that show, but it was not recognition as a designer in any way. That was just not… nothing changed in that way at all.
Glynis Tao
I guess it was sort of a launching pad for you, for your career as a TV personality. I guess you sort of had that sort of taste of what it was like, being on camera and being on a TV show and having that spotlight, but then eventually leading you to where you are now. It's never just a straight, easy path that people seem to think it is.
Orly Shani
Absolutely not. When you look back on it, it all makes perfect sense and it connects in such a way that had this not happen and this not happen and this not happen, you know? It is such a wonderful thing and I happen to be someone who is very comfortable on camera and really likes connecting and communicating with women in that medium. And so it has felt very natural for me to go along that path. I think that had I started focused as a designer only and not had this detour as like an on-camera personality at a time when social media was really developing, I think that I probably wouldn't have been… I wouldn't have been successful because I would have followed an outdated path.
Once I was more in an on-camera social media type of world, my ability to communicate what I had to offer was so much more innate and it was so much more comfortable and it was so much more a way of doing things that I think it was just kind of the perfect storm. I needed those years of building that up without actually having a brand or anything. It was really just about providing valuable content and being a teacher—teaching people how to do things for themselves. And I think, you know, had I not done that, none of this really would have happened.
Glynis Tao
ROCKNOT became a brand. It started as a DIY idea, right? Do you remember the exact moment you thought, wait, this could be a business?
Orly Shani
Yeah, I just got stopped everywhere I went. So for anyone that doesn't know, ROCKNOT is a collection of sparkling rhinestone statement straps and those straps click onto any handbag, transforming that handbag into a statement bag. So instead of having this really beautiful piece of art, a small little statement bag that is absolutely stunning, there's no denying that, but incredibly impractical, doesn't fit things, can't be worn on a daily basis, I thought it would be really cool to have the strap be the statement piece. And that strap could switch bags because I was so obsessed with individuality and personal style. I'm like, “How am I supposed to decide what your perfect bag is? Like, are you a person who carries the wipes and the pharmacy in your bag? Like you're that person who always has all the things or you're the person who 's like a cell phone and a pack of mints.” The size of the bag, the shape, the color, the slouch, the prints, the whatever. So I liked the idea that this sparkling piece could go on any bag and it could change on a daily basis. It could change midday—that's really cool.
And so I made this DIY and I was wearing it in my regular life, but it is a damn disco ball, no joke. It sparkles like you would not believe. And so I got stopped everywhere I went and I kept sending people my YouTube video and I was like, “I don't make them. Here's my video. You can buy the materials downtown and I'll show you how to make it.” And a lot of people started making it, but a lot of people, understandably so, were like, “Girl, I'm not gonna DIY this thing. Like, I'm just trying to buy it. Just what would you charge me? Just charge me something. Tell me what it would be. I want one. I'm not gonna make it. I'm never gonna make it. I'm not that girl. Charge me.” And I said no, and I said no, and I said no, because I had had two failed clothing lines. And I was like, “I learned my lesson. Like, I'm not a designer. I'm a teacher. That's what I do. I teach. So I'm going to teach you. I'm going to teach you. I'm not interested.” And it just got to a point that it was like a joke.
My husband looked at me and he was like, “This is enough already. You gotta just make these things for people. I can't do this anymore.” Everywhere we went. I had a friend of my sister's who is very successful and can buy anything she wants from any brand she wants. She asked me to make one and I told her the same thing and she said the same thing. “I'm not gonna make it, just tell me what it'll cost, whatever, just tell me I'll do it.” And so I came up with some ridiculous number for one strap. I was like, “It's gonna be like $475.” And she's like, “Great, I will take 10 because I'm doing a Christmas dinner with my girlfriends and I'm gonna give them each one.” And I was like, what? And I'm like, she can buy whatever, so if she's buying this, there's something there.
And with that, I decided to start it and I decided to really look into what it would take to be able to make them at an affordable price because $475 for a purse strap did not feel right to me. That was very misaligned with my messaging of versatility, functionality. I wanted it to be a special piece, but I was not spending $475 for anything. So that didn't feel right to me. So it then led me on the journey of figuring things out like manufacturing and finding the materials elsewhere and all of that. It came out of customer desire and like, saying no, no, no, no, no, and eventually being like, okay, maybe this is different and maybe I need to pay attention to this reaction because I have made a DIY video every week for five years and I have never had this. This is different. And that's just, it was undeniable.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that's your proof of concept. And you DIYing this strap and getting such a positive response to this product, right? Then I guess that's sort of what that light bulb moment went off and you went like, “Oh my God, this is it!” right? And so at the same time, like you said, you saw a gap in the market, right? A woman wanting statement bags, without the cost or impracticality.
Orly Shani
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
So what do you see as working in the existing handbag market at this time?
Orly Shani
Well, I think what I realized was that women wanted like a hack or a cheat code for feeling done and cool and polished without all of the money and all of the knowledge about what are the cool brands and what are the right silhouettes and what's in and what's out. That's exhausting for most women. Some women love it—it's a sport for them and they love it. Most women I have found are overwhelmed by it. It doesn't come naturally to them. There's an expectation and they don't feel like that girl. And so what I found was that ROCKNOT checked this box of jeans, t-shirts. With ROCKNOT, you look like you tried. And that's kind of what the gap was that it was filling. It wasn't so much that women wanted a statement bag as much as they wanted a statement that did all the talking. So they didn't have to have just the right jewelry paired with just the right shoes, paired with just the right belt like that was too much for them.
ROCKNOT really takes the most basic outfit across the finish line and that's really what worked. As the brand evolved and went from two purse straps to 70, and just purse straps to rhinestone bags, and just rhinestone bags to basic bags and leather bags and nylon bags and phone straps and all of these things, what I realize now actually is that I feel like ROCKNOT's almost carved out a brand new category in handbags. If you think about it, handbags are an absolute necessity in a woman's life, right? Like practically we need it. We need to carry our things. We need to have everything in one place. Sometimes you're just grabbing your phone and your keys. But like most of the time, women need a practical solution to carry their things.
There are two categories currently. There is an everyday basic bag, which is great because it is normally a little larger in size. It's basic and boring. It's supposed to be that way. That way, no matter what outfit you're wearing, you can grab it and go, and it's gonna work. It's just kind of supposed to disappear into the background. It's all about function over form. And then there are evening bags and statement bags that are like a work of art, and they get people talking, and they're show-stopping, and they're special, and they're outfit-making, but they are super, super limiting and delicate, and you cannot wear them on a daily basis. And so they spend more time sitting in our closet than they do in our regular life.
What I have found is that ROCKNOT has created this hybrid category where it's the glamour of a statement bag with the functionality of an everyday bag. And so you get the best of both. And if you want to click that purse strap onto a rhinestone bag for a red carpet event or a wedding, you can. If you want to click that purse strap to a belt bag and wear it to a baseball game, you can. And so that's what I have found now as the brand has grown three and a half years into it. I realized now there was a gap in the market, and we sort of smushed our way in there, but I don't think I saw that when I started. I just thought, “Man, I love the versatility of this. This is cool. She's going to get a lot out of this. She can wear this every day on any bag. That's fun. I like that.” And it was the versatility and customization that I really liked. And now that we have a full brand, I'm like, “Whoa, there was a gap and I think we smushed our way right in there.”
Glynis Tao
It's really evolved like on your website. Like you've got straps, handbags, accessories, jewelries. Like you really expanded the line.
Orly Shani
Yeah, 100%. Like even if you go to that ‘game day’ tab… if you click ‘game day’ and click the button that says ‘customize your set’, it gives you the ability, because one thing that I was realizing is I'm like, women love to look fabulous, right? Like in their own way. And for some women that is super casual, laid back, don't look like I tried. For some women that is like uber glam, bombshell. Everyone's got their style language, but a lot of women love to show up for their team, for the sports that they love, for the kids who play sports, for their college. Whatever it is, they go to a bar to go watch their college team play in some championship and they want to look the part.
We created a game day collection that is 13 rhinestone colored straps with 13 rhinestone key chains. So you can combine your team colors, but then you can separate them and still wear it for a night out. So like, for example, let's say you're a Packers fan. When in the world are you wearing a yellow and green purse strap if not just for game day? Like, you're not. Those colors together are not like a fashionable combo. You know what I mean? So like, no, you're just wearing it for game day and then it's sitting in your closet. But I was like, with the game day collection, you get a stunning emerald green strap that would look beautiful on a black clutch with a black dress for like a date night. Amazing! But you click on your yellow keychain for game day with a clear belt bag. So even that, it was like, how can I let her show up for game day? But when she's off the field, still use these pieces in her regular life so it's worth her money. Like, it's got to do a lot for her for her to spend her money on it and so everything has that multifunctionality in the way that it's designed so that if you're going to splurge on it, it's like girl math. By the time you're done, it's free. Basically, it's free, you know.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. I mean, you didn't set out to start a business, right? You just created your own strap out of thinking like, “This is something that I need”, and you started wearing it. And then it kind of took off. I mean, like, what were the early signals that told you that customers really understood and wanted this concept? And was there anything about the product that surprised you once real customers started using it?
Orly Shani
Yeah, ooh, that is such a good question. I'm gonna jump to that second one first because there is something that I think when you make something with your own two hands, you inherently know it's weak points because you made it, right? So you know how to be delicate with it where needed and where you don't need to. Your customer doesn't know that. And so customers can be rough with their products, right? They just can be, and it's not a bad thing, they just can be. And I had things break in the beginning that I was like, “I have worn mine 742,000 times and it's never broken.” But it was like, yeah, but I know it's weak points. So I'm taking it off.
Like, for example, we used to have these rope chokers that were a piece of the rhinestone cording in a magnetic clasp and it was adhered with glue and it had a lock on it. So in order to open it, you had to twist the lock and pull it out. Well, people weren't twisting the lock and pulling out—they were just pulling to try to open it. And so it was, over time, weakening the adhesive and breaking. So all of a sudden, a rhinestone cord end would come out of the clasp. And I'm like, “I've never had that happen”, but I made it. I know the clasp. So when I take it off, I reach my hand behind me, I twist and I open. Great. People aren't doing that. So even in moments like that, I was like, “We can't do these clasps anymore. It's not intuitive. People are yanking on them, we can't do these clasps anymore.” And so we had to create different clasps. We had some products that we realized the weight, it wasn't strong enough to hold the weight of an everyday heavy bag because there was an issue with the adhesive early on. So I redesigned every single strap so that there was no glue at all. It was made out of one single 20 or 30 yard piece of rhinestone that was put through the clasp, put back through the other end, and then woven back onto itself. So there was no end with cut ends sitting inside of glue. That didn't happen. So there was literally no way that this strap could ever break on a duffel bag. We changed everything.
The biggest advice that I will, if I'm given the opportunity and I can say it, I will say it to anyone that will listen, is you need to start with the smallest possible quantities allowed. And if that means you are paying double, pay double because what happens is your customers will teach you what needs to change. If you have bought into so much inventory that you can't afford to make that change or make that tweak or pull back the ones that didn't work or were broken because you bought into so much that it would literally put you out of business, you are not able to evolve and you're not able to improve.
And so because we'd started with such small quantities, when there was an issue, it was an absolute no brainer to change it. And that's it. If I had to lose the remaining inventory, I couldn't fix it, it couldn't be saved, so be it. And I had to make new ones. And I did that with every single product and I still do. My manufacturers are, I could not have gotten luckier. We will start, they'll let me start, no joke, with like five pieces. I'm like, can I just get five? And I wear mine. My sister takes one, I sell one, I do a little and I give it a month. And if we're good, we're good. And then I move forward. But it is an absolute blessing because every time I get thoughtful feedback from a customer who wears it in a way that I didn't and is like, “You know what? I really wish the inserts had a zipper. It's nice, but the snap, like I'm wearing this bag actually like all the time.”
So what I'm talking about is this. Our first, my first real bag was this bag. It's called the Transformer. It's a woven rhinestone shell with a removable vegan leather insert and I originally had it with just a snap because I thought when people are wearing it, they're just going to want to be able to reach in and grab something out of it. Well, one of the ways that I marketed it and promoted it is this is a fully functioning bag. It's got a zipper closure. It comes with its own strap. It has rings to be able to attach and detach straps to it. It's a clutch. So like, this is a great bag. People were wearing this as an everyday bag and it just had a little snap. And so I got all this feedback about like, “Could there just be a… is a zipper doable maybe?” And we come out with new colors like every year. There's 10 or 15 new colors so that you bought your rhinestone bag once and now you just buy fun colors and it constantly changes for you.
So I made the change. We did a zipper. We recessed the zipper so that there would be no visible hardware so that if you were wearing a strap with a gold clasp or a gunmetal clasp or a silver clasp, you're never gonna see it. These little bags are like little workhorses on the website. They were never intended to be a bag. They were always intended as an insert for this bag. And so little things like that. It was fine because I was only buying 100 in each color. And so by the time it was time to do a new color, I was able to say, “Okay, for this next round, I'm ordering five new colors. Can we redesign it and put zippers in them?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. Easy.” You know what I mean? So to me, I think that the greatest gift is your customer wearing it and telling you its problems.
The five star reviews that tell you it's the most perfect thing they've ever had in their whole life is the best moment ever, always. But those reviews that are like, “I really love it. I just wish dot dot dot”, that is like my dream. Because I'm like, well, I can do that! You just wish and I can do that, no problem. And it's like, your customers are so smart, they're so smart.
Glynis Tao
Yeah.
Orly Shani
They're wearing it every day. They're putting it through the ringer. And their feedback, they're not charging you for it. You know what mean? Like it's free.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, they're literally testing it for you and giving you their feedback, which is gold in a product business.
Orly Shani
Gold. Yeah, 100%.
Glynis Tao
Like, I mean, you came up with a great design and found the product market fit fairly early on—proof of concept and demand. Then getting it made is a whole other thing, right? And being able to scale that and reproduce a product that you had previously had started as a DIY thing that you made yourself. So I think that is a whole other thing that people have to deal with. I guess I'm sure that was a big learning curve for you at the beginning, but it's just this constant refinement process, I think, in making things better based on the feedback that you receive.
Orly Shani
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
One thing that really stands out about your journey is that you bootstrapped ROCKNOT and built it profitably, which seems to be a bit rare in the fashion world these days. People often go out for funding right away. But why was profitability important to you from the beginning and how did that influence decisions that you made early on?
Orly Shani
Yeah, so it's interesting, because in the beginning I did not know what I was creating, right? I didn't set out to create what ROCKNOT is today. It was a collection of these straps that people wanted and they didn't want to DIY them. They wanted me to make them and I was just going to create a handful of these straps. That was very simple. Investment into manufacturing was easy. I could easily afford to do that. The margins on it were really strong. So when I sold through the first, I had plenty to do a little bit more and do a little bit more and do a little bit more.
And it was all done organically because I had a decent following on my social media from my previous career on camera and doing all of that work. I had this organic audience that was excited and interested in going on this journey with me and buying the products that were now finally available to them. And so there was no need for funding at the time because the investment was so small and every batch that I sold gave me a chunk to do the next one. And I didn't at the time have any overhead. I did every job. There was not a single piece of overhead other than the item itself. And then as I grew, I started doing marketing and so I brought on an ads team and we started running ads and I had a really, really small budget because I am inherently risk averse. I am willing to invest a little bit, but like, let's wait till this thing gets rolling before we invest a lot. And I found an amazing ads partner who was willing to work with me on a really low ad spend daily budget ad spend and a lot of them are not. I didn't know that going into it. So I was really annoyed when I was taking meetings where you were like, “You need to spend a minimum of like 5,000 a month.” And I was like, “5,000 a month?” Like at the time, that just seemed insane to pay their retainer plus 5k and ad spend and not know what was going to happen. And so I worked with someone who was willing to do really low ad spend and we started running these ads and it very quickly hit. We figured out what was working. We figured out how to communicate to the customer and it started working. And so then my little investment into ad spend gave me back a lot and I had even more for the next thing and even more for the next thing.
I think that in a way I never needed it. I never needed the investment for the way that I had because I didn't plan on launching a huge business where I needed to really make a big splash and do a bunch of hires and get all you know. It was like there was no need. It was fully sustainable in itself.
But I think there is also a gut. My dad is an entrepreneur. My dad moved here to the United States when he was 22 years old and didn't speak the language. He took English classes at night, started a business, and took his business. He became incredibly successful and watching him as an entrepreneur, I think that I always felt like a business needs to make money. All of these businesses that have all this revenue and there's no money. I was like, am I crazy? Like that's not a business, Like businesses have to actually make money. Businesses have to be profitable. Like to me, it didn't register as being a real business if you made no money. If your product didn't have enough of a margin to function as a business, you're broken. Like I didn't get that. That was a thing that I genuinely didn't understand. And so to me, it was like, that was the only way to do it. And I think in large part, because that's how my parents were. My parents were entrepreneurs and their business had to provide a good enough value that they could charge enough money to support themselves. And so you have to provide value if you want top dollar. And my dad was high-end in what he offered. And so the value of what he provided had to be so exceptional that it would bring back new people and new people and new people, and that there was enough when everything was paid out for him to have a beautiful life. And that to me is what a business is. And so I didn't go to business school where there were these other ideas of like, you build up a business with high enough revenue and eventually you get acquired even though there's no profit and like, they can get it profitable. Like that thing did not register to me ever. So I think that part of it was inherent without realizing it is that I just was like, that's how one does it, right? You know what I mean?
Glynis Tao
Yeah, yeah. And so many founders are struggling with pricing. This is a big topic, right? How to price your products profitably. So how do you gain confidence charging what the product was truly worth?
Orly Shani
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of intangibles when it comes to how a customer feels about the value. And I think that like a huge piece of it is your quality and your customer service, especially now with brands that are built on social media and TikTok and you see something on some cute girl and she's like, “Oh my god, look at this amazing whatever and I just got it on TikTok Shop and like it's only $20 and like isn't that cool?” And then you get it and the quality is so bad and the experience of trying to return it or trying to get it is so bad and the whole thing just leaves a really bad taste in your mouth. And then sometimes you splurge on something and it's gonna last you forever. And if there is an issue, the customer service is there to handle it and there to fix it and it's worth every dollar. Because the confidence you know that you're not out on your own, if God forbid something happens, is a huge value. So for me, customer service was always like a really big deal. And that's actually last year, not 25, but 24, like, so I guess technically two years ago, that was my big change was hiring a customer service team who's local. They're all local and they're incredible because I found myself tethered to my computer an hourly basis because if someone was introduced to ROCKNOT through Instagram, placed an order, had a concern, sent an email and didn't hear back within an hour, my worry was that they would think we were an internet scam because they've never heard of us before and they just saw us on Instagram and there's a million fake Instagram-y, TikTok-y brands that are not for real. And so I was obsessed with replying right away, replying right away, getting back to them right away so that they knew it was a real person and a real company and we got it, no problem. Yes, of course, we'll change the shipping address. You know, you wanna cancel it, you wanna add something, you got the wrong link, we got you, no problem. And so that was so overwhelming to me. And at the end of 24, we grew so much and so fast that I was drowning. I mean, I was drowning in everything that I had to do in marketing the new products and getting all the things on the webs. I had a full warehouse team at that point, but it was all of the other jobs were so overwhelming to me. And so at the end of 24, I hired a customer service team and I've had them this entire year and I get maybe 10 or 15, I'm very grateful and appreciative of this, five star reviews submitted a day on the website. And I would say 30 to 40% of them mentioned the customer service, which is fucking incredible.
Glynis Tao
Hmm, that really says something.
Orly Shani
Incredible. And I think that has a lot to do with it. I could price something because I think it looks like it's worth 200 bucks and then the experience of owning it is not worthy of $200. It's not worthy of $200. Like that's it. It's just not. So what it looks like is high value. It is beautifully made, handwoven, constructed impeccably. It's going to last you. You're gonna get the compliments in the street and God forbid you have an issue, you are taken care of. And I think that has allowed me to maintain real confidence in my price point. It used to really bother me if someone was like, “$150, what?” and get pissed. It used to like really hurt my feelings. And now I have such confidence that I'm like, it's okay.
I totally get it's a splurge, no problem. But I have such confidence in the price point now because of the value that we offer across all areas, the product, the experience you have when you're wearing it in your life, the intention that's put into it. So it's versatile and multifunctional and you're getting a lot of use out of it. The customer service…
Glynis Tao
You've thought of it all through all the touch points.
Orly Shani
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. I really do. The product itself is only worth so much for the customer. There is a whole other experience that you really have to think about. We're customers, we've all been there, we know what it feels like. Create the experience like you would want for yourself. It's easy. Imagine your mom shopping. How do you hope she's taken care of? Like, what do I want that to look like? Your sister, your best friend. I feel like to me, that is absolutely the most important and that's big chunks that I feel like add to the value of the product on a whole.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, especially being an online DTC business too, right? You don't have that benefit of being in person—people having the customer service, one-to-one experience and holding, touching, feeling the product—so you want to ensure that people can feel confident and trust. Well, not only is the product good quality, but they'll also like to be guaranteed if anything were to happen or it doesn't work out for them, that they'll be taken care of. And so I think, you know, thinking about an entire loop from beginning to end product and beyond is really important. I think you did a really great job of that. And thank you so much for explaining it. I think that's such great insight.
Orly Shani
Exactly. Thank you. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
So you have a huge advantage that many founders don't. Having years of experience in communicating on camera and telling stories at scale from The Fabulous to the Today Show and beyond. How has a storytelling background influenced the way you market and explain ROCKNOT to your customers?
Orly Shani
You know what's so interesting? When I first started and I first hired that ads team and we were going to run ads and do the thing and it wasn't going to be organic anymore, I had this idea of what that was supposed to look like and it was based on what other brands that I admire did. And they were fabulous photo shoots and they were editorial looking pictures and it really built out something that felt aspirational. And so we started with these photos and it was mainly photo-driven and it was very glossy and it was pretty videos and slow motion. And the ads just tanked. Just nothing. No clicks, no engagement, no shopping—nothing.
I was still doing my YouTube channel at the time. I was doing both at the time for a really long time. I did a video for a DIY and at the top of the video, I was like, “Oh my God—this new necklace just launched on ROCKNOT. I just want to show you guys, I'm obsessed with it. It's really freaking cute and there's two different ways you can wear it. And so I'm just going to show you and then we'll get into the DIY.” And I filmed this necklace and it's called the Crystal Knot Necklace. It doesn't have any glue in the knot and the reason for that is so that when you're wearing it as a choker or you want to drop it down as like a low collarbone necklace, you adjust the knot so that the knot itself is always facing forward and the slope of the necklace is a natural slope because if you think about like a track, know, the innermost lane is smaller than the outermost lane. So when you're thinking about a necklace like that, if you're going to create a U shape, the outermost lane has to be bigger than the inside or it's going to flip on you. And so I was demonstrating why there's no glue and how you can wear it like this versus like this and we clipped it from my YouTube channel and we made it an ad. It exploded. And so Angie, who was in charge of my ads, was like, “Girl, screw the pretty pictures. You just need to make like a million little YouTube videos. You need to just teach. Teach like you teach on your YouTube channel. Teach about every product.” Because in our meetings, when I told her about a new arrival, I would do that. I would show it to her and I would be like, “Look at this and this part goes like this.” And I would explain everything. And she's like, “All of this that you're doing right now, this is your next ad. Do that as an ad.” And so every single new arrival, I teach what it is, how to wear it and why it's going to be an everyday workhorse in your closet. And that's how every single product has been launched. It’s literally me teaching it. And so I think that it has been a really natural and organic way where I'm able to market what's unique about it, but in a way that is educational. So for the customer, by the time they buy it, they feel like they have a full understanding and there's not much surprise when they get it. They're gonna have seen it, they're gonna have seen it move and come off and click and switch and all of these things. And so that's been a huge gift is the fact that I like to teach and I'm very comfortable doing it on camera has allowed me to very organically teach why this product is fantastic and why you need it.
Glynis Tao
Wow, I love that aspect of it. Just combining an educational component to what you do for product business, right? That's not usual. So if someone is building a brand without a big audience, they're just starting out and even like with a new category like yours, where should they focus on first in order to reach their clients and tell the story better. What would you say would be the first step?
Orly Shani
So it probably depends a little bit on their target demographic. Generally, younger is gonna be on TikTok. Little older is gonna be on Instagram and Facebook, so Meta. So that's something to consider. I think you should be on both. I think existing on both is important and this is what's hard for people because if it's not your comfort zone, you don't wanna do any of it, much less all of it. The way that you communicate on TikTok is very different than the way you communicate on Instagram. People are more used to polish on Instagram. It can feel a little bit more perfectly packaged and polished and presented and photos and it can be a little bit more like a magazine. Whereas TikTok should feel like your Instagram stories, where it was a random moment. You threw up your phone, you shared a little something while you were doing something else and you posted it. If it's too like, “Hey guys, I'm here to show you my blood”, like swipe, swipe. No one's watching that. No one's watching that period by the way. Hey guys, should be removed from your language by the way. Just a side note.
On TikTok, you need to just exist very naturally, very organically as you are, very little polish, very little planning, just content consistently and getting it out. And I think it just takes getting used to. And so if you're someone who it's really unnatural to you and it's really out of your comfort zone, I would recommend creating a private account and just recording and posting all day that no one's ever gonna see, just so you can get comfortable and get in the habit of doing it before you feel the extra pressure of people seeing it and having judgment around it. So doing it privately, creating a private Instagram page where you post stories that no one's ever gonna see is really, really valuable. You should watch them back and you'll start to notice habits that you have that you didn't realize you have because we all do it. I realize a lot of the times I start new stories or videos by saying “so.” I'll be like, “So I made this new dress. So I had this thought.” After watching it, I realize I do it and it's annoying. So I'm aware of it and I stop doing it. But it's very hard to notice those little things in ourself if we don't watch it. So I would think that's really important. Start to create that content and do it privately if need be, if you are worried. If you're not and you don't care, then just start. Just start sharing it. And I would always recommend that people break it into 100 tiny pieces.
So if let's say your brand, like for example, we'll take ROCKNOT, right? ROCKNOT is an accessories brand. If I were to do a video and I just talk about ROCKNOT as a concept, the big idea, right? It's like this big, right? And I'm saying ROCKNOT is a collection of interchangeable purse drops and handbags. It's gonna elevate everything you have. Okay, cool. Now I can take a smaller chunk like right here, and I can say, I'm gonna just talk about purse straps for right now. So I'm gonna say, “So the way that we make our purse straps is they're all handwoven and we have stainless steel clasps and they're swivels so that, you know, they're never gonna get twisted on you.” And I can describe the different details of the straps. Well, that's straps in general. I can divide that again into weaves. So now I can do a video on each weave. So that's like eight videos, right? Well, now we have 13 colors, I can do videos specifically on certain colors. By the time I'm done, there can be hundreds and hundreds of videos if you segment yourself into talking points and not try to have the one video that says all the things. It's like you take each thing and then that can become five videos. And that can become five videos. And so you'll have never ending content if you divide it up as best you can. And even if you only have one product, it doesn't mean that you have to have a collection of a million products. You can divide up your product into use cases, into storage, into care, into frequently asked questions,
There's a million things that you can do to take your big concept and slice it up into a hundred tiny ones. And that's why like one of the best things you can do is create videos based off questions. So you do a video, look at the comments. If someone asks you a question, that must become a video. It's a free idea. Take it and run with it and make a video on it.
Glynis Tao
I love it.
Orly Shani
And try to get comments. Say like, “Do you have any questions? Ask them down below. Is there anything that's unclear? Let me know any suggestions you have. Please tell me.” if it's not a gimmicky sales, like, you know, “tapping comment below”, like if it's real, if it's for real, if you're genuinely asking, people will feel that they will give you ideas and questions and you will make content answering all of those questions. It will just become a cycle.
Glynis Tao
How much time do you spend on creating content for your business?
Orly Shani
It goes in waves. So depending on when we have new arrivals, right? So like, as soon as new arrivals come, it's like a sprint to create content. So I need to shoot all of the photos for the website so that we've got all the beautiful photos with all the details. I need to get all those photos over to the ads team so they can start creating visuals off those photos. I need to create my video, my teaching video. So that has to be done. I try to create a styling video that's like, this is how you can wear it. Look at all the different ways. Like this is going to be so versatile this spring or this fall or this winter or whatever. And so it's like a sprint when a new collection arrives. And then it's a little bit of a downtime when I'm posting all of that content and I'm not doing as much. And it's a little bit more, you know, stories. A little BTS. I'm at the warehouse today. This is what I'm doing. And it's more of the founder journey. And that's just a little more laid back, you know, a different kind of content.
But I have found it's easier to get into a head space and create when you're in the right head space. So my first few takes of any video suck because I'm not there yet. I'm a little rusty, it's the morning, I dropped my kids off, I haven't really talked to anybody today, I'm not sparkly and on, I'm quiet. And when I turn the camera on, my energy is quiet and it takes me a minute to get into it and then I'm just talking. And now once I'm in the mode, I might as well make three or four other videos with three or four other things, because I'm here now. My hair and makeup's done, my background is set up, my camera's out, I've got the microphone on, let's do it while we're here. You know I mean? Because it's like half the effort is all that other stuff.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Yeah.
Orly Shani
You know, the talking takes a minute, but like feeling cute enough to want to talk on camera is one thing. Having good lighting is, you know what mean? It's the, all the other stuff, you know?
Glynis Tao
It is, yeah. So I always like to zoom out toward the end of the conversation. What's a lesson from your DIY days that still guides how you run your business today?
Orly Shani
I think it's actually funny. It kind of perfectly bookends it. It's exactly how we started, which is the focus on personalization and individuality that continues to drive like everything I'm doing. So when I'm coming up with new products, I am envisioning 40 uniquely different women wanting to be able to wear it and making sure that it is going to be something that's going to be able to work for all of them in a different way. And so as I'm working through an idea, making sure that everybody is going to feel like it was designed for them is what is driving me over and over and over again.It's made it really fun for me and it's made it very clear. It's a very clear mission statement. It's just felt very natural, you know, and I think that's what DIY is all about. You know, it's about making it for yourself so that it's perfect for you. You're DIYing home decor, it's meant to fit your unique space, and that's what is so cool about it is that you don't need to buy some store bought thing that’s a little too big or a little too short. You're able to customize it exactly as you want it for your unique space. And when it comes to fashion, it's the same thing. Your unique style language and the way that you want to present yourself every day, we want to make pieces that can support that. That's what DIY is about. And for me, I think that's really what ROCKNOT is about. And so as I'm designing pieces, I always put it through that lens.
Glynis Tao
And finally, what's next for you and ROCKNOT that you're excited about?
Orly Shani
Oh my God. So, so many fun pieces are coming for spring. This has been really exciting as the pieces start to arrive. We have our first drop coming next is all these really beautiful lavender straps. The color is so pretty. Two new inserts for the Transformer that work with the lavender strap. So that's exciting. New spring colors for people who have bought into the Transformer system. They get new colors. We have this new shell necklace, which is the one that I'm wearing that I made last year and I wore it so much. But I sort of missed my window of like summer and then I was like well. Then we're going into fall and then it's a holiday. It's not like seashells. It's not really relevant. So I've been waiting and waiting and now it's coming for spring. We have a new strap called the Confetti strap, which is the first time we've ever made it. It's a mix of six different rhinestone colors and it literally looks like confetti and it is just the most joyful, beautiful happy little strap you ever did see. Three new handbags are coming. New colors. There's so much really fun stuff coming for spring. Some new tops. And there's a new idea, which I think is probably not coming until September for fall, but it's something that I patented—well, patent pending. I'm really, really excited about. It's like a new category.
And so I feel like it's proof to me that all of the ideas that I have for ROCKNOT really does have a home as I start sort of stretching into these new little areas. There's this through line that it feels really easy. It just feels like the easiest thing I've ever done. And so some of these new ideas and new categories and new things are giving me a lot of joy for the future because it feels like I'm never gonna get bored. There's always another idea, you know? And luckily I now have the platform to be able to release those ideas and put them out into the world somewhere and have an audience that's excited about it. So it's pretty cool. So yeah, in the short term, it's really all about the spring and just excited to start sharing it and seeing people wear it then some really, really cool things that'll be coming for the fall.
Glynis Tao
That's so great. I follow you on Instagram. So I follow you along your journey. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Orly Shani
Thank you. So the Instagram page for ROCKNOT is @shoprocknot. That's what it is across all social. So @shoprocknot is how that's spelled and it's across all social for shoprocknot.
My personal Instagram is @orlyshani, which is O-R-L-Y-S-H-A-N-I. I'm there personally. I don't post too much other than stories. Like I sort of stopped using it as an influencer and I really share my personal life and what's going on in my life there. That is a place to get in touch. But yeah, I feel like ROCKNOT is probably the best place because it's where I'm most excited to exist right now. So I'm all over that page. My personal, I'm like, eh, whatever, but my ROCKNOT is where I'm most excited to exist. So I'm quite active on there.
Glynis Tao
Orly, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story and journey with us today.
In this episode of Chase Your Dreams, Glynis Tao and Tamara Mainardi explore how style can serve as a strategic business asset. They discuss how personal styling, branding, and sales strategies intersect to create a compelling customer experience. Tamara highlights the importance of a strategy-first approach, the challenges designers and business owners face, and the missed opportunities in fashion sales. They also cover building trust through style, the power of collaborations, inclusivity in fashion, and how taking the pressure off founders can unlock creativity and innovation while keeping fashion playful and personal.
About Tamara Mainardi
Tamara Mainardi is the founder and principal stylist at The Style Edit, a personal styling, branding, digital marketing and business development services company. She helps entrepreneurs show up with clarity and confidence while guiding fashion brands toward stronger sales, sharper positioning, and better customer experiences. With over a decade of experience working with brands like J. Crew, Aritzia, Park & Fifth, Indochino, and Burberry, Tamara brings a strategy-first approach that connects style, customer, psychology, and revenue.
Styling and merchandising can be strategic assets that guide purchase decisions
Trust, authority, and sales are built through thoughtful styling and storytelling
Great products don’t sell themselves—context and connection matter
Collaborations work best when aligned, small-scale, and tested for shared growth
Expertise is communicated through presence, clarity, and authentic enthusiasm
Interview Themes
How can styling be a part of a business strategy?
Style isn’t just about aesthetics—it shapes how brands build trust, authority, and credibility. When styling is done strategically, it can lead to business growth by helping customers understand who the brand is for, what its values are, and why its products or services matter. With the proper styling, brands can influence purchase decisions and customer experiences.
I have a great product, so why isn’t it selling?
If a brand can’t communicate why a product exists or what problem it solves, people can’t form an emotional connection with it. For people to want a product, brands need to focus on crafting a clear and engaging story that paints a picture for how their products can integrate into customers’ lives.
Why do some brands struggle to convert even if they have strong visibility?
Being visible on Google doesn’t mean your brand is memorable. Brands that play it safe or blindly follow trends struggle to leave a lasting impression. Leaning into what makes your brand stand out and experimenting, testing, and having fun are what will make people want to invest in your brand.
How should brands think about collaborating to support growth?
Brand collaborations can be beneficial if the brands’ values are aligned. Starting small—testing one product, one idea—allows brands to learn how they work together without overcommitting resources. The most successful partnerships create shared value, strengthen positioning, and support sales, rather than functioning as one-off visibility plays.
Why do entrepreneurs struggle to be seen as experts?
Entrepreneurs that don’t appear excited or energized about their brand or ideas make it difficult for customers to care about their brand. Authority and trust is established when founders are confident, clear, and enthusiastic about their work.
What changes when founders take the pressure off?
Reducing pressure creates room for creativity, curiosity, and collaboration. Instead of trying to be everywhere and do everything, founders can focus on what truly matters, build community, and grow in a more sustainable way. Taking the pressure off doesn’t slow progress—it often accelerates it by restoring clarity and momentum.
Chapters
00:00 The Intersection of Style and Strategy
05:34 Bridging the Gap: Creatives and Business
06:45 Missed Opportunities in Fashion Sales
09:34 Selling with Authenticity: The Art of Connection
14:03 Styling as a Sales Tool
17:46 Building Trust Through Personal and Brand Style
20:22 Examples of Brands Doing It Right
22:58 The Cool Factor: Standing Out in a Saturated Market
25:24 The Importance of Creativity in Fashion
27:15 Collaborations: Strategic Partnerships for Growth
28:44 Strategic Collaborations: Starting Small
29:35 The Edit, Curate, and Reimagine Methodology
32:33 Finding Passion and Playfulness in Business
34:47 The Importance of Energy and Authenticity
39:05 Taking the Pressure Off in Fashion
40:52 Building a Supportive Fashion Community
Transcript
Tamara Mainardi
If there's anything I've learned, especially from digital marketing and paid ads, especially from a strategic point of view, it’s about constantly testing because you and I can be like, “Oh, that's going to work”, “Everyone's going to love it”, and it can completely bomb unless you actually have the data and the numbers to say, “Yes, this is going to work.” And even that sometimes isn't 100% foolproof.
You do have to have fun with it, try new things, see what happens, and take a moment to actually see what is working, and the things that aren't working. Spend the time to evaluate, and what can you pull from that to get new ideas?
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Glynis Tao
Today's episode is all about something that often gets overlooked in business conversations—style as a strategic asset. Not just how things look, but how style influences trust, authority, sales, and how people experience your brand.
I'm joined by Tamara, founder and principal stylist at the Style Edit. Tamara works at the intersection of personal styling, branding, digital marketing, and business development. She supports entrepreneurs who want to show up with clarity and confidence and fashion brands that want stronger sales and sharper positioning and better customer experiences. With over a decade of experience working with brands like J.Crew, Aritzia, Park & Fifth, Indochino, and Burberry, Tamara brings a strategy-first perspective that connects style, customer, psychology, and revenue.
In this conversation, we're diving into how brands can sell their collections more effectively, how to show up clearly online, and how to think about collaborations in a way that actually supports growth. So let's get into it.
Welcome Tamara. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Tamara Mainardi
Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Glynis Tao
So, you work across personal styling, branding, and fashion business consulting. How did those worlds come together for you?
Tamara Mainardi
I think it's always just been a very natural progression. I do have a background in business admin. It does fall under hospitality management, but when you look at the big picture, it is business development, business structure. I learned how to really communicate with people, but also listen to what it is that they’re saying in order to really bring things together. I also was an artist in high school, which seems like a million years ago, but I've always just generally been a very creative person and on the flip side, been very numbers focused. So I do have a certificate in bookkeeping and I always like to bring that up because as someone who is very creative and artistic, having something that's, you know, more of a finance or numbers focus, those two necessarily don't always jive. So I feel like work is like a bridge or translator between the two.
Glynis Tao
You describe your approach as strategy-first. What does that actually mean when it comes to style and branding, especially for business owners?
Tamara Mainardi
It's important to really have a foundation and I think be inspired. We spend so much time trying to get to the end result, but we don't actually take the necessary steps to get to the end result. Sometimes that does require trial and error. When I work with my styling clients one-on-one, I really focus on understanding who they are as a person. What are the things that you like? What are the things that you dislike? Focusing on the things that work for you, because if you spend so much time trying to go against the grain, in the end, it's just going to backfire. So for me to have a strategy, it's about really getting messy first because all artists, all creatives, are messy in some capacity because it allows you to find what you're looking for.
As an example, you throw everything on a table and then you can start to organize what is working, but also, go antique shopping or go to the thrift store. Start looking at different objects and different things to be inspired. If you can travel, travel because gaining inspiration will help to form your ideas and help to actually grow and build what you're wanting to achieve.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, being creative myself as well, I know sometimes the process can be a little bit messy before it starts to take shape and become something. Where do you see founders getting the most confused between the style and strategy? Are they really that different? Can you merge the two?
Tamara Mainardi
I may repeat myself a few times on this, but what I constantly see is that creatives create. They're designers, they are maybe business owners, but again, it's bridging that gap. There's a piece where it's like, “I'm just the designer”, but then when you're very small and starting out, you have to be everybody and not everyone is meant to be able to design, create, sell, production—do all the things that come with it because it's a lot of work. You're one human being. One human can only do so much.
So I think it's like giving yourself a little bit of grace and actually saying, “Okay, what are the things I'm good at? What can I really focus on?” And when you have a little bit more money to buffer with, then it's like, “Okay, how can I now outsource and get someone to help so that you can build and scale your brand?”
Glynis Tao
When you look at a fashion brand's collection, what are the biggest missed opportunities that you see in how they're selling it?
Tamara Mainardi
They don't sell it. I mean, I've gone to, I don't know how many markets, how many shows, whatever you want to call it, and I am missing the passion. And it's not me missing it—I'm missing it from them. I can look at something and I need a moment to process, but I can come up with ideas of how it works, where it goes, how it needs to be included in whatever it is you're styling or putting together, and not everybody can do that.
So I think it's really knowing your product, your what it is you have and you gotta get over that hump—you've got to talk to people. And sure, people are not always going to respond, but at least say “hello” because then you are catching someone. Just keep working on that because especially from a sales side, if you go to one person and they say no to you when you're trying to sell them something, and then you're like, nobody wants to buy my stuff. That's one person. If you go up to a thousand people and everybody says no, that's not very likely. You're probably going to get maybe, you know, 10 people or something of that extent, but you've got to really just keep pushing the boundary on yourself because you can't expect things to sell if you can't engage. People spend time thinking like, it's just going to sell itself. If someone's looking at a dress or shirt or whatever it is, they don't understand what it means, why you designed it, how it integrates into their wardrobe and that connection is very much lost.
Glynis Tao
Because you come from a retail background you were telling me about your sales experience, right? And you were like, I guess you built up the skill, perhaps you learned it. I always find it hard to sell and like, it requires you to sort of have thick skin and not feel offended by somebody if they criticize your product, especially if it's your product you designed and made. I found it really hard to be the face of the brand or sell my own product. So, what do you tell someone in terms of how to sell through either through style and service, but not with pressure? What does that look like in practice to you both online and offline?
Tamara Mainardi
Well, you know, not to toot my own horn, but I've been like this my entire life. This is just naturally who I am. I mean, I've been told I should be a realtor, sell homes. When our family was looking for another property, I did all the shopping around and there were a few times I would go back with my mom and they were like, “Oh, do you want us to come?” I was like, I already know what it is, so don't worry about it. If anyone's going to sell my mother, it's me because I know her very well. The rest of you will fail epically. So let's just like, just cut, cut you out altogether.
You know, when I was very young, I would sell parking spots in East Van because I lived close to the PNE. I took bottles back. I have no shame in selling, making money. And to come back to the styling part, more recently I'd worked at Park and Fifth and I thrived there because I was like, “Okay, you're getting ready for an event. Okay, what's the event?” And like having that conversation. I'm your best friend that you could only dream of who is going to be honest with you, but I'm also that person to be like… I can see when someone's like, I'm just not feeling this. I'm like, “Cool, that's cool. You're allowed to have that opinion. Nobody's forcing you to purchase this.” And that to me builds a lot of trust because I think it's well known that there's certain establishments in the city that are very much under pressure sales. Anything, everything looks good on you. And I know for a fact, if you hate something in the change room, when you wear it—or maybe you probably won't wear it—you're going to hate it a hundred times more when you have it at home. So listen to your gut. If you don't like it and you don't feel good in it, don't buy it.
And I think there is something about just being able to connect with people and there are, like you said, talking to people, that's not really my thing. That's fair. If you know for yourself, that's not your genius zone, then don't go there. Stick to where you know, you can really thrive.
And that's where collaboration comes in—to find the people that you know can really come together to help build your brand. I mean, I went to CircleCraft back in, what was it? Whenever it was in December of last year, November, can't remember, it all meshes together. And there are some designers that are very timid in selling. I mean, those are long hours and I get that, but you've got to show a little bit of excitement. These are my clothes! This is what it is! And yeah, people might not like it, but those aren't your people. So you just gotta keep promoting it because the more you promote it, the more that it will get out there, right? And if you're excited, then people will get excited. But if you're a little timid or you're just like, sure, that's one thing. And then there's also those who are seasoned veterans and they're just like, my people are coming. And that's a totally different group. You have to go for it and you have to be proud of what it is you do. I'm like, yeah, like, just do it. Nike's so fast. Right?
Glynis Tao
Just do it. Yes. Well, you seem like you're a natural at it and you sound like you were a really good salesperson that was trustworthy because I find that people can also sense that insincerity, right? Someone says, “Oh, that looks good on you” just to make that sale. Sales definitely can be a tricky one, I think, for a lot of brand owners out there.
So how can brands think about styling as a sales tool rather than just say a visual one?
Tamara Mainardi
I mean, if you look at merchandising, I know merchandising has shifted a lot, especially in the retail space, and to me, merchandising, I mean, I remember as a kid going back past so many stores. I have a thing for Louis Vuitton. I haven't quite figured out why, but I do. It's been a long, long relationship. I remember when I was 11, there was just like a Louis Vuitton suitcase in the display window. And I looked at my mom and I was like, “This is what I need to add to my collection.” And she's like, “My God.” She like just pulls me out. But I’m like, “Mom, I need to get the Louis Vuitton suitcase. We're traveling all the time. This is necessary.” And she's like, “Whose child are you?” because my mom is very down to earth and I live in La La Land. It was the lighting.
Glynis Tao
Just with that—the way it's merchandising really sells a lot. It can do a whole lot, like visually, but also with telling the story through really good merchandising, right? Can emotes, like emotions to people and convey some storytelling, I think behind it as well.
I think I've seen some of their collabs as well and the way they merchandise those and maybe different artists and stuff like that and how they put the product together with the art and the two together. It's like, wow. It's just so visually appealing. They're just amazing at what they do.
Tamara Mainardi
Yeah, it's having fun. I had a conversation yesterday with someone and it was like, have fun with fashion. I was like, yeah, I don't know where we lost that. We were so caught up in these labels, these trends, these stereotypes. I don't know how this is going to come across, but when they were doing the whole mob wife aesthetic, that was a thing. They're like, oh, know, Tamara, you're Italian, blah, blah. And I was like, how do you associate because I'm Italian that now I'm associated with a mob and that's how we dress? Did my Nonna have fur coats? Yes, but she was not. That was a part of her style and not because it was associated or whatever with something. I don't know why we need to have all these labels. We should be having fun with fashion, being creative with it. We should be innovative, trying new things, testing the waters.
If there's anything I've learned, especially from digital marketing and paid ads, especially from a strategic point of view, it’s about constantly testing because you and I can be like, “Oh, that's going to work”, “Everyone's going to love it”, and it can completely bomb unless you actually have the data and the numbers to say, “Yes, this is going to work.” And even that sometimes isn't 100% foolproof.
You do have to have fun with it, try new things, see what happens, and take a moment to actually see what is working, and the things that aren't working. Spend the time to evaluate, and what can you pull from that to get new ideas?
Glynis Tao
From your perspective, how does personal or brand style impact whether people trust you online before they ever buy?
Tamara Mainardi
Gosh, that's such a loaded question. It's really about the user experience, right? People need to come back to you a few times. So first impressions still matter as much as we speak to it's not as important or even just from a branding perspective, as like a human being, how you show up. Are people looking at you like you're an actual authority in your space or do you just look like you don't care? Because if people are putting money into and investing, they want to see at least a pretty picture of something, but that the picture is telling a story that makes sense. So I think, especially when it comes to online, it doesn't need to be easy. It needs to be accessible, but it also has to be that people want to stay on your website. What value, I know people talk about that a lot in business, like what value or what problem are you solving? But generally, do you know the problem you're solving when it comes to style? What is that motion you're trying to provoke or what are you trying to do to help people through clothes?
Glynis Tao
I want to ask you if you can give some examples of some brands you think who are doing this really well. For me on social, I've seen a few brands that stand out. I don't know if you've heard of POPFLEX. It's like a yoga athleisure brand. The person behind the brand, her name is Cassie Ho, who is a Pilates instructor. She has a pretty big following personally as well. She's built up pretty good personal brand, as well as her clothing brand, this POPFLEX brand, and she does all her own Instagram, Reels, it's all her, right? So there's kind of like this merge between her and the brand. I don't know where the separation between her and the brand itself is. It is very merged together. So I think if she has a following of people who really just love her personal brand, I think they'll just buy her anything that she comes out with, right? Like she does all these new launches and drops and new products and stuff, and she's always showing it on Instagram, but I'm wondering, that would probably be a good example of how she built up that trust with her followers.
Tamara Mainardi
I mean, that's a lot. Ultimately, as much as that sounds like an influencer and her brand, she's a saleswoman. It doesn't matter what she sells, people are going to buy because that trust is built between her and her community. So anything she comes out with, they're going to buy from her.
There's an Australian brand called Fayt the Label and the owner, Brittany, she was a YouTuber influencer and she does her own things as her own personal brand, but then she has Fayt the Label. But what's also, I think, really unique about Fayt is the fact that it's inclusive. They have a very wide range of sizing for women. It's not just your straight sizes. It goes, I believe, up to 4X. I'm not 100% sure of the sizing, but it's about having accessibility to those who feel excluded. And that's what's always really perplexed me about fashion. Fashion is supposed to be fun, creative, innovative, but somehow it's also become a very like you're excluded because you don't look like X. Which I don't think is very fair because it shouldn't matter how tall you are, how short you are, if you're straight size, plus size—hat doesn't matter because we're all human and clothing is meant to fit on our bodies. So why are we now, because you're a certain body type, you're not included. I really struggle with this because I know what it's like to be excluded and for me it's like I don't ever want anyone to feel that they don't belong because life throws us all sorts of curveballs and when you're being excluded, it's not a great feeling. So I think that brands that think of who their ideal client is but it's showing that there's openness as well.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, a lot of brands are active on social, but still struggle to be found or remembered. What do you think is usually missing?
Tamara Mainardi
I think it's that cool factor. I know that sounds so simple, but how are you cool? Because at the end of the day, you are cool. You are who you are and sometimes you've got to get out of your shell. Like A Bronze Age is a Vancouver brand and they started with something very small—just their handbags—and now they've evolved to apparel. They've gone back into sort of like 80s, 90s archives of photography, and it's just so cool. You're like, “Oh my god, I want that.”
There’s another designer, I don't know what her name is, but the piece spoke on its own. She takes men's dress shirts and she cuts holes and then puts elastic drawstrings so you can make the hole a little bigger or smaller so it creates more of an hourglass shape. And I was like, this is really cool because now we're repurposing, we're being innovative and just again also having fun with it. Those are things that stick out. How are you different? How are you unique? we as people are all unique and different. Why not be proud of what that is and tap into it more?
Glynis Tao
Mm-hmm. Yeah, without opening a can of worms here, but I was just following the latest on Lululemon and their recall that happened on these sheer leggings. Chip Wilson had chimed in on it and I was reading this thread on LinkedIn. He was just kind of saying how Lululemon has really just lost its cool. I think they've gotten too big and maybe kind of reached that level of mass appeal that people don't want it anymore, right? So yeah, I guess you can sort of reach that level of saturation where it's just like brands are cool and then like, which kind of, I think, creates this opportunity for smaller brands to show up and be different and be unique there, right?
Tamara Mainardi
Absolutely. I mean, this is, I'm going to be known for this and people who personally know me know this. I actually dislike a great deal of the whole black leggings with clothing that's not styled. I don't think that that's a way to dress yourself. Again, I also lived in Italy. I am very much Italian in my upbringing. So that is a huge faux pas. There is, look, there is a way to wear leggings, but stop wearing your Lulus because that is for workouts. I have Lululemon, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I don't, but I wear them to the gym and that is where they stay. You can be comfortable in anything you wear, it needs to fit you, and this works if you're a business owner, if you're a customer shopping. If your clothes don't fit you properly, it's just not going to work and I mean I shopped at Lululemon when it first came out. I remember I went with my Nonna and she just let me go ham on whatever I could buy. And yeah, it did have a cool factor, but I think that we have to be creative. There's so much out there to choose from. You're not subjected only to one brand.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, you had just mentioned briefly about collaborations. I just want to touch on this briefly. So you have collaborated with many different brands, major brands, smaller ones. How should brands think about partnerships in terms of sales and positioning?
Tamara Mainardi
I think it's such a great opportunity. Every opportunity is an opportunity, if that makes sense. I hear a lot of fear and I don't think I can do that or I can't do this. If we keep getting in our own way, then nothing is going to happen. I don't love referencing Kim K, but she has collaborated with so many brands because she has something that she offers and the brands that she works with also offer something. So now you're coming together and building something even bigger.
I mean it would be really cool to see especially here in Vancouver where we have so many different types of fashion brands to choose from. It's astounding. Some of these fashion brands I have seen work with influencers and I think that's great. But I think we need to take a step back and actually learn to work together. There seems to be a really big divide of, “This is my company, that's your company” and we kind of leave it at that. I find it kind of bizarre that people don't actually want to work together in a sense that could be I think pretty explosive in a very positive way.
Glynis Tao
How can fashion brands approach collaborations in a way that supports sales and positioning, not just visibility?
Tamara Mainardi
You have to start small. Sometimes we just want to bite off more than we can chew. Focus on one item, run a test because you do have to ultimately run a test and you have to see how it's going to play out because everybody has their own logistics and their own operations and how they function. So it's finding something, one item, whatever that may be, work on it together and see how it played out. And if that doesn't work, then maybe it's just not a fit in the end, but you don't have to do, for example, like a whole line or these massive campaigns. You can start really small because that's a great way to learn.
Glynis Tao
I just wanted to ask you to just walk us through your methodology. You call it the “Edit, Curate, and Reimagine methodology.” How is it applied to both individuals and fashion brands?
Tamara Mainardi
I don't know, I was thinking about this—if it actually goes in that order anymore—but I think editing is so important. It's taking a moment to really look at the big picture, seeing everything you have. This is both like if you're a store, a brand, or even as an individual, because when you take a moment to really look at everything, I think it helps to provide a lot of clarity. I can be like, “Okay, this is working, this isn't working.” And I say that a lot because at the end of the day, we have to keep testing things. You can't just live in this cycle that just keeps going and going because sure, if it's not broken, don't fix it, but if you want to challenge yourself, you're just going to be in that same loop.
Curation is really about getting curious and finding things that are interesting or odd. There's a lot out there on the internet. If you travel, that shows and exposes you to things that you probably couldn't even imagine. Find the pieces that you really gravitate to and pull that in.
And then I think reimagining is pushing the boundaries on yourself. I think we're all really good at wearing our uniform or the same thing over and over again, but make that one small move to think differently or just try to give it three months, six months and see what happens and then go back and be like, “Okay, this is what I liked about it. This is really cool. This felt really good. We're seeing a lot of progress over here.” It’s just pushing yourself and as someone who's been through a lot—I'm sure everybody says that—but especially having sustained a concussion, you really have to slow down and you have to take a moment to evaluate because you can't do the same thing that you did prior to the accident, right? I learned a lot from that and taking that as a turning point of like, “Okay, where and what do I need to do?” And I think that Edit, Curate, and Reimagine really come together. They all play into each other.
Glynis Tao
Is that methodology, did that come about when you started your business and did you go through this yourself? Is that how this sort of came about?
Tamara Mainardi
I love the word edit for some reason. I don't know why, I'm like edit, just edit everything. I’ve gravitated to it for some reason. Curation has been something I've always just done naturally. I've curated my apartment, I curate myself and how I dress and how I show up. And reimagining is something that's a little bit newer and something I came up with AI because I was just dumping ideas and I needed something, another word to kind of pull it all together.
I use words also as a place to kind of set the tone. I talk a lot about intention and also being disruptive. Disruptive, I know, doesn't always align with people in general, but I'm here to disrupt in a way that really challenges you and again, to reimagine what's happening and to look at it as a positive versus a negative.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. I really love that. Thank you for your explanation. I feel so inspired after talking to you right now and just rethinking about certain things where I feel like, wow. Sometimes as a business owner, you get so deep into it that things become so serious that it no longer becomes fun anymore, right? I'm just like, holy smokes, when did all that disappear? Where did all the playfulness and the fun part of it all go? And I think this conversation has really helped inspire me to think things differently.
So what advice would you give to founders who feel like they're doing all the things, but they're still not being recognized as the expert?
Tamara Mainardi
You know, this is such an interesting question because there's a smaller brand name and she was talking about like, “Hey, support small” and like, “Hey, like me” and not in a negative way. It was very sweet and very endearing, but from my point of view, as a stylist, as someone who's very creative, I'm like, “Where is your energy?” I want your energy. And I think this is sometimes what's missing. You've put so much energy into your work, into your designs, and now you have to talk to people. That's a whole nother ball game. You have to be in front of people and it is not easy. Like I know I can be on, but I tire myself out sometimes too. That might be hard to believe, but then there's moments I'm like, “Okay, now I just need to stop talking to everybody and just shut out for a minute to recalibrate.”
Get excited. To see excitement from brands, and I know not everybody has that and that is okay too, but come in with that and be genuine. Have a conversation because when we start to be like “Support us, support local”, sadly, it just doesn't translate because a lot of brands talk about that. Why do we have to support local? At the end of the day, people are so quick to buy their luxury brands or go to the mall or whatever it is and they're so quick to do that because it's like a knee jerk reaction, right? We know the brands because they've been around for a long time. So now if we're going to support local, why are we supporting local? I know this is gonna ruffle some feathers, but it's true. I support local because I have friends who sell and I myself resell clothes here and there. I do it as a way to also put myself out there—to be able to connect and hear what people are doing. How are they shopping? Why are they shopping? What are they looking for? It really is about being curious.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, sometimes you just have to really dig deep there. It may not always be comfortable either, I think.
Tamara Mainardi
No, it's never comfortable
Glynis Tao
Okay. It's not just me.
Tamara Mainardi
I mean, I worked with a client just a couple days ago and she herself is a creative person and she alluded to some things that are going on in her life and I was like, “Okay, let's really focus on you as a person.” And by the end of the call, once we have gone through the entire process—I have a style strategy call that I go through with clients and it's really from mindset to understanding your shape and colors and patterns and really doing this. You have homework after because they have to process everything. And in the end, she was telling me about this one French brand that she just loves and she got so excited. I was like there we got to it. I was able to burst the bubble of that passion and she's like, “I used to love clothes but now not so much” and she's gone through changes in her life and sometimes you just need someone to talk to just to like get it out and to provoke those ideas—push the boundaries. What is it that you do like? Where do you source your creativity from? And if there's one thing, like I said, that I'm very good at, it's disruption and constantly challenging the way you're thinking because you're doing your thing your way. And it's doing something, sure, but let's try something else and see what happens.
Glynis Tao
If you could give fashion founders one principle to guide how they sell, show up and collaborate, what would it be?
Tamara Mainardi
Take the pressure off.
Glynis Tao
That's a good one.
Tamara Mainardi
Take the pressure off. We live in such a wild, wild world these days. There is so much happening. The left doesn't know what the right's doing and the right doesn't know what the left's doing. It's a wild world. Someone once said to me, “I know there's a lot and you're passionate about, but just pick a spot that you know you can really advocate for.” And I was like, “That's a good piece of advice”, because yes, you want to do everything. You want to be the biggest thing, the grandest thing or whatever and there are certain issues that come along the way, as much as we want all this perfectionism and everything to work out. I think taking a moment of taking the pressure off yourself, having a community you can really build. And I think that would be something really nice in Vancouver and something I'd really like to build as well as having like a fashion community that are supportive of each other because we have a lot of people in this city who are incredible at what they do, but everybody kind of just sticks in their bubbles. It would be so amazing to really come together, share our ideas. I think it would really open the room to collaboration.
Glynis Tao
I love that idea. I am open to this if you want to really explore this idea or something. Bringing people together because I feel like everybody's just working in their own bubble, but then we hardly ever all come together and share ideas and talk and stuff like that. So I'm just so glad that you're here today and we're able to have this conversation. Hopefully, some more ideas for people and who knows, right? I'd love to get together cause I've had a few Vancouver fashion professionals and PR, branding, yeah, styling, different things, designers. It'd be nice to have one place or event that we can go and be able to all meet together and talk about ideas and stuff like that. So that could be a possibility.
Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Tamara Mainardi
Well, the good old internet. You can find me at thexstylexedit.com. And then on Instagram and on TikTok, you can find us @thexstylexedit. It's the style edit, but there's Xs in there cause I wanted the style edit to look clean. I was like, Xs are going to be my connector.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I will make sure to have all your links and contact information in the show notes as well. Tamara, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate that clarity perspective that you bring to the conversation around style, branding and sales.
Tamara Mainardi
Thank you. Thank you for having me and I'm happy to share and chat all the time.
In this episode of Chase Your Dreams, SEO + AI Visibility Strategist, Glynis Tao, breaks down why SEO in 2026 should focus on aligning with real business goals to drive growth. She introduces the concept of “business-first SEO”, an approach that prioritizes buyer intent, revenue-driving pages, and clear brand messaging over vanity metrics like traffic and impressions. She discusses how AI search recommendations have transformed brand discovery, what SEO metrics actually matter—such as organic revenue, conversion rates, and brand demand—and how real fashion brands use business-first SEO to achieve 300%+ increases in organic purchases. Shifting from traditional SEO to a business-aligned strategy focused on intent, product visibility, and long-term growth is the key to driving conversions in 2026.
🔥 My Online Visibility Roadmap uncovers the hidden technical + SEO issues holding you back and gives you a clear plan to fix them.
With over 20 years of experience in the apparel industry, Glynis is an expert in creative entrepreneurship and fashion business operations. Driven by a mission to empower and help her clients build e-commerce businesses that are purposeful and profitable, Glynis uses her industry experience to develop data-driven strategies.
Beyond SEO consulting, Glynis is passionate about fostering a community of like-minded business owners. Through her Chase Your Dreams podcast, e-commerce blog, and collection of free resources, Glynis provides guidance and inspiration for entrepreneurs striving to grow their brands.
Takeaways
Business-first SEO focuses on long-term, sustainable growth
Rankings and traffic alone don’t drive revenue, alignment does
SEO should start with business goals, not keywords
AI search favors recommendations over rankings
A clear and consistent brand voice helps AI understand and recommend your brand
Themes
What does “business-first SEO” actually mean?
Business-first SEO starts with business goals, not keyword lists. Instead of asking “What can we rank for?”, you need to start asking, “What will bring in the right people and turn them into customers?” This approach prioritizes revenue-driving pages, high-intent searches, clear messaging, and the full customer path—from journey to decision—so SEO can function as a growth strategy.
Why doesn’t higher SEO traffic always lead to more sales?
Visibility alone doesn’t drive conversions. Many brands rank high, gain impressions, and see increases in traffic, but their revenue remains flat because their traffic isn’t aligned with buyer intent. SEO that only focuses on rankings often attracts the wrong audience—people that are disconnected from products, messaging, and purchase readiness. In 2026, SEO must align with how real customers think, search, and buy.
Which SEO metrics actually matter in 2026?
Key metrics of success include organic revenue, conversion rate by landing page, branded search growth, product feed and shopping performance, and indexability of product pages. These metrics help answer the most important question: “Is SEO helping my business grow?” Measure the outcomes of your SEO strategy rather than vanity metrics for a better understanding of your business growth.
How has AI changed brand discovery in search?
AI has turned search engines into recommendation engines. Instead of asking search engines for products and services that exist, people are asking AI search to make purchase recommendations. AI systems interpret brands using signals like clear product information, structured data, trust, authority, and consistent messaging. AI doesn’t just rank content—it decides when and why to recommend a brand.
Why does my brand voice matter?
Your brand’s voice is no longer just a marketing asset—it’s a visibility signal. AI systems look for clarity, consistency, authenticity, and cohesive positioning across a site. When a brand’s voice is generic or inconsistent, it’s more difficult for AI to understand who the brand is for and when its products or services should be recommended. SEO that actually sounds like you builds trust faster, converts better, and grows your brand over time.
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to a New Season of the Chase Your Dreams Podcast
00:26 The Disconnect Between SEO and Sales
01:50 What is Business-First SEO?
06:03 The Shift from Traditional SEO to Business-First SEO
08:54 SEO Metrics That Matter in 2026
11:16 The Impact of AI on Search
12:37 The Importance of Brand Voice
13:30 The Five-Step Business-First SEO Framework
15:47 Case Study: Business Growth Through SEO Optimization
18:07 Looking Ahead: Future Conversations
Transcript
Glynis Tao
Hi everyone, welcome back to the new year. It's 2026 and I'm so happy to be back with a brand new season of Chase Your Dreams podcast. I'm so excited. I have so many new guests lined up for this year. And as a matter of fact, I've already started recording with a few different industry experts and professionals, as well as stylists, designers, and PR strategists already coming up, so make sure you stay tuned and look out for that.
Let's get to today's topic. If you've ever celebrated a keyword ranking win and then you opened up your Shopify analytics dashboard to only realize that sales have not moved at all, then you are not alone, my friend. I see this all the time. I work with a lot of fashion and lifestyle brands. They often tell me that they are trying to do everything, and to them, it sounds right on paper. It looks right, but they could be ranking higher, having more impressions, more traffic, but when it comes to revenue—flat. That disconnect is exactly what we're talking about here today, because in 2026, SEO is no longer about rankings alone, it's about alignment. Alignment between your visibility strategy and your business goals, alignment between your messaging and how real customers think, search, and buy, and alignment between who you are as a brand and how search engines and AI systems understand and recommend you.
Today's episode is called, Business-First SEO That Sounds Like You: Why Brand Voice Is a Ranking Advantage. If you're tired of SEO that looks impressive in reports, but doesn't move the business forward, this one's for you.
I'm Glynis Tao and I'm the founder of Chase Your Dreams Consulting. I'm an e-commerce SEO expert and AI search strategist with over 20 years in the fashion industry. I've been on both sides of the screen as a founder of a clothing brand staying up late at night, looking at the numbers, and thinking that I've been doing all the things, but the numbers may not have necessarily matched or reflect the effort that I put in. And so, I bring that experience as a founder and now into my business as a strategist diagnosing why traffic isn't converting. What I want to share today is a shift in how we think about SEO—one that prioritizes business outcomes, clarity and brand voice, not just vanity metrics.
Here's a quick rundown of what we are going to be covering today. In this episode, I will be walking through what business-first SEO actually means, why rankings alone don't drive growth anymore, the SEO metrics that actually matter in 2026, how AI search has changed brand discovery, why your brand voice is now actually a ranking advantage, and I'm going to give you a real fashion brand example that led to an impressive 333% increase in organic purchases. Let's do this.
So what is business-first SEO? You may not have heard this term because I pretty much made it up. Business-first SEO is exactly what it sounds like. It's SEO that starts with your business, not just a keyword list. Instead of asking, “What can we rank for?”, a better question to ask is “What will bring in the right people on a site?”, help them understand what we offer and turn them into customers. That shift matters because SEO should be a business strategy and not just a checklist. In business-first SEO, what we do is we prioritize revenue-driving pages like focusing on product collection pages, making sure that we understand the high-intent searches that reflect real buying behavior. Also, having clear messaging on the website that will remove the friction and confusion and thus helping to increase your conversion rate. We're not just thinking volume here—we're thinking about the entire customer journey from discovery through to interest, consideration to final decision.
I know a lot of SEOs kind of just think of top-of-funnel traffic driving activities, but I mean, getting traffic to your site is one thing, but converting them into sales is another thing. This is just thinking more beyond traditional Google rankings. It's all about visibility now and how you show up across AI-powered search results, shopping feeds, recommendation engines, and zero-click summaries.
Search has really changed a lot from your traditional search engines into now AI-powered search engines. You can be visible and still not be the chosen one. What I mean by that is, I've had discussions with people who spend a lot of time working on blogs and content creation, and they're seeing that traffic coming in and perhaps, yeah, they are getting those rankings, but that traffic that they're getting is completely disconnected from the products and the intent and ultimately the sales. For growing fashion brands, it's not just inefficient, it's actually very exhausting to be on this constant content creation hamster wheel. Whereas when I look at a more business-first SEO approach, we are actually treating visibility as a long-term growth asset and not just a short-term win. When your SEO aligns with your business goals, your brand voice, and your customer journey, it stops feeling so overwhelming and starts to feel more supportive.
I'm just going to talk briefly about the difference between traditional SEO versus business-first SEO. Nothing wrong with that. I spent years doing this exact process of working just solely on traditional SEO and working on increasing rankings and traffic. Ultimately, at the end of the day, what do brands really want? They want sales, right? Let's take a little step backwards. Traditional SEO is what we tend to focus on more activity metrics like rankings or impressions and traffic volume and looking at the numbers in our monthly report. Content is often created to chase those keywords without really fully considering what buyer intent is or product relevance and revenue impact. Business-first SEO starts with the actual business goals. What is the customer intent and long-term growth strategies? We want to be sustainable and grow beyond those initial rankings and traffic. We want to grow the business long-term and be profitable and sustainable, right? The way we would measure success through a business-first SEO strategy is that we will measure success through qualified organic traffic. Not just traffic, but is this traffic actually qualified? We can look at different metrics just within your Google Analytics dashboard. You can tell whether or not the traffic is qualified or not by conversion rate—a big indicator—revenue generated through organic search, engagement rate, or how long and time spent on site, as well as your overall brand demand. Are you starting to feel more momentum coming as a result of this traffic that you're getting to your site? There are ways to be able to measure this. Instead of reacting to every algorithm update, business-first SEO really focuses on clarity, consistency, and building the foundations that will perform well across both traditional and AI-driven search.
I'm going to talk a little bit about why rankings alone don't drive growth anymore. There was a time when ranking number one felt like a finish line. That time is now over and I'll tell you why. Firstly, because of AI-powered search. With AI overviews and summary style results, users often get answers without even clicking. Secondly, zero-click searches. Many searches now are ending up in result pages. Third, shopping and visual results of product carousels and feeds often appear above organic listings. And finally, misaligned content—ranking for keywords that don't actually convert or grow a business. So SEO today is really about understanding how people move from discovery to consideration to decision. And if your strategy stops at “we rank”, then you are solving the wrong problem.
I'm going to talk about SEO metrics that actually matter in 2026. If rankings aren't the goal, then what is? Here's what we track in a business-first lens. We track organic revenue—not just traffic, but actual sales that are driven by organic and shopping visibility. Number two, we also track conversion rate by landing page. Which pages are converting and which attract attention without action? Number three is brand search growth. More branded searches usually mean trust and demand are growing. You can monitor and see how much of your search traffic is a branded search versus non-branded. Number four would be product feed and shopping performance, this is especially critical for fashion and lifestyle brands. Making sure that your product listings are very clear and concise for search engines as well as shopping channels to really be able to understand and show your products on various shopping channels, Google shopping. The fifth thing is make sure your product pages are indexable to search engines because if search engines and AI can't index your products, then they can't recommend them. All these little components are really important. These metrics answer a better question, which is, “Is SEO actually helping the business grow?” As a founder, the better question to ask is “Is SEO actually helping the business grow?”
I'm going to talk about how AI search has changed the game. AI didn't just tweak SEO, it has refined discovery. Search engines are becoming recommendation engines, basically. People aren't just searching for what exists, but they're asking about what they should choose, like one thing over another. They can make comparisons now. This means that AI systems will be prioritizing clear product images, clear product information, consistent brand signals, structured data, trust, and authority. You want to build trust and authority across your website. Here is the key thing to note: AI doesn't just rank content—it actually interprets brands by recommending them based on someone's search. AI is not just there to rank content. It's using all these signals to interpret the brands, which then brings us to something that more SEO strategies completely overlook. This is the part that no one really talks about or that no one talks about enough. Your brand voice is no longer just a marketing asset. It’s actually a visibility signal. What AI systems are looking for are things like consistency, clarity, authenticity, positioning, and cohesive messaging across your site. When your brand voice is vague, generic, or inconsistent, it's harder for AI to understand who you're for and when to recommend you. This is where my SEO guiding principles come in.
When I talk about our SEO guiding principles, what I really mean by that is that we believe that SEO should serve your business and not the other way around. SEO is not just about rankings, but it's about aligning your visibility with your business goals, brand voice, and long-term vision. These principles really guide everything that we do. When your SEO reflects these principles, it doesn't just rank—it resonates. SEO that sounds like you builds trust faster, converts better, and compounds over time.
I'm just going to walk you through my five-step business-first SEO framework so you get an idea of what that is. This is the framework that I use with fashion and lifestyle brands. I conduct an audit and we're not just looking at technical issues, revenue drop-offs, and conversion friction. Step two is that I prioritize high-intent keywords. That means ones that are product-led or at the category level, solution-aware searches. And number three is that I align content with the customer journey. You've got to make sure that the content aligns with where the customer is within their search journey. We have to create awareness content that should support purchase decisions. Step four is indexing a product. Feed visibility. If products aren't eligible to appear, then they basically don't exist. You have to make sure that your pages on your website are being properly indexed and visible to search engines so that they can bring them up in the search results. In step five, you want to measure your revenue and know where your revenue is coming from, how much you're generating month over month or year over year, and just looking in terms of perhaps seasonality. What are the trends that are common within your business so that you know that, okay, if it's a seasonal product, then perhaps that’s why there is a dip in sales for one month. You want to also look in terms of like, if that is the case, then what are the opportunities there to create demand or more evergreen products that could be sold more on a year-round basis? And so you're seeing less of those dips in revenue and hopefully seeing more consistency in your revenue and adjusting your strategy to those fluctuations.
I just want to mention a case study for a client, one of my favorite examples, which is one of my clients who runs a golf, tennis, and pickleball brand. When they started out, they had traffic, they had rankings, but their sales were flat. What we did was we focused on clear product aiming, stronger intent alignment, improved internal linking, clean product feeds, and bio-first optimization. Through that, optimizing their product feeds was a huge one that really helped boost their organic purchases in Google Shopping. We tested it out at the end of Q3, early Q4, and throughout Black Friday, Cyber Monday, which to them, Q4 is typically their slower quarter because majority of their products are golf, tennis-related. It was very seasonal. By applying this strategy, we were really able to see a huge lift, which was a 333% increase in organic product purchases, higher average order, and stronger brand demand. We just use very simple, straightforward SEO strategies and we were able to see these results quite quickly in quite a short amount of time. I can say that these strategies actually do work because we have tested them out firsthand with our client site.
I just wanted to give you a little preview of what is coming up next and this is exactly why you'll be hearing more founder-focused conversations on this podcast. I have upcoming episodes that include stylists talking about positioning, designers sharing how they communicate their value, and publicists breaking down their visibility and credibility, because SEO doesn't live in a silo. It interacts with brand, PR, merchandising, and messaging and that's where real growth happens.
So to close off, I would just like to say that SEO is not a checkbox, but it can actually be used as a growth engine when it's aligned. If you're ready to move beyond rankings and build SEO that actually supports your business, I would recommend you start with an online visibility report or please reach out if you want to learn more about how we can help you build a strategy that will future-proof your brand and website in this age of AI. Feel free to reach out to myself and my team, and we'd love to help you with your strategy. Let's help you turn visibility into momentum and traffic into sales.
Thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.
