The Secret to Turning Website Traffic into Paying Customers

by Glynis Tao | Oct 29, 2025 | Podcast

In this episode, Evelina Kaganovitch explores why building trust is more important than increasing traffic for e-commerce fashion brands. She shares her journey from fashion school burnout to becoming a messaging strategist, emphasizing the need for authentic storytelling and meaningful communication. Discover what the key to a successful email marketing strategy is, why brand messaging is crucial to long-term success, and how to enhance engagement and drive conversions through content.

About Evelina Kaganovitch

Evelina Kaganovitch is a data-driven copywriter for fashion brands looking to connect with their customers and drive conversions through engaging content. After burning out in fashion school, Evelina turned to the startup world to combine her passion for writing, fashion, and entrepreneurship. Building off of her own experience in the fashion industry, Evelina connected with fashion entrepreneurs looking to improve their brand messaging to help them better communicate with their audience. Today, Evelina is a successful messaging strategist, using email marketing, ads, and sales pages to increase customer engagement and sales.

Contact info

Website: www.evelinakreative.com

LinkedIn: @evelinakreative

Instagram: @evelinakreative

Youtube: @evelinakreative

Free Resource: 35 SWIPE WORTHY SUBJECT LINES TO BOOST YOUR OPEN RATES

Takeaways

• Building trust is more important than just driving traffic.
• Genuine, quality connections with customers is what sells.
• Email marketing is a powerful tool for driving conversions.
• Speak like a human to your audience.
• Authentic storytelling resonates more than salesy messaging.

Interview Themes

What are the benefits of email marketing?

Build trust with your audience

Emails are not only a powerful marketing tool, but also a great way to build trust within your customers. They allow for personal, one-on-one communications, helping brands connect with their subscribers. 

Higher conversion rates

Email marketing typically converts better compared to other channels like social media. They operate at around a 36:1 ROI, often outperforming SEO and paid ads. 

Email marketing is measurable

Social media and other communication platforms only provide a small snippet of your marketing campaign’s statistics such as follower count and the number of shares and likes. Conversely, email marketing platforms provide a much more in-depth analysis of how your campaigns perform. You can see who has opened, clicked, and engaged with your emails, making it easy to refine your messaging based on real data.

Reliability and ownership of contacts

Email marketing uses reliable platforms that allow brands to have complete ownership of their contacts list. Unlike social media platforms where things can crash, accounts can be locked, and followers can be lost, companies will always have access and ownership of their email lists.

What is a common brand messaging mistake to avoid?

Brands can get caught up in creating elaborate, overly polished personas for themselves in an effort to sound cool and sell more. Unfortunately, this strategy often backfires. These personas make brands feel too distant and convoluted, resulting in a brand narrative that doesn’t resonate with the target audience. Evelina’s advice? Keep it simple and human. Avoid using technical jargon that can be challenging for your audience to understand. Instead, be straightforward and talk to your customers the way you would in real life. What do they need? What problem are they trying to solve? How can you appeal to that? Focus on clarity and genuine connection and your brand messaging will resonate.

Is nurturing your current audience better than acquiring more?

Yes! When it comes to growing a brand’s audience, always prioritize quality over quantity. It may be the case that your website has a lot of first-time visitors, but it’s unlikely that they are going to immediately buy after one interaction with your brand—it’s not always love at first sight. The people who are going to drive the long-term success of your brand and the ones who have fostered a trusted relationship with it. Loyal customers are the ones who will continue to support the brand through repeat purchases. By prioritizing meaningful relationships with them, brands will grow and ensure long-term success.

What are some actionable steps brands can take to improve their brand messaging and email marketing strategy?

Revisit your customer avatar

Even if you’ve already done customer research, it’s worth revisiting. As a business evolves, so do their customers, which is why it’s important to stay up-to-date with your customer persona. Redefine what your customers’ pain points are, what their preferences are, and what their needs are. Then, revise your brand messaging accordingly.

Map out your email marketing strategy

Setting up an email marketing plan can feel overwhelming. Start simple by mapping out your customer journey beginning from the discovery phase. Once you’ve mapped out the customer journey, identify any gaps in the flow and ideate how email marketing can fill those gaps.

Chapters

00:00 Building Trust Over Traffic

02:40 The Journey from Burnout to Brand Storytelling

05:34 Crafting Authentic Messaging

08:40 Understanding Customer Pain Points

11:41 The Importance of Clear Communication

14:29 Nurturing Customer Relationships

17:38 The Role of Email Marketing

20:51 Identifying Trust Gaps

23:36 Automated Email Sequences

26:28 Driving Revenue Beyond Sales Announcements

29:32 Balancing Email Frequency

32:28 Success Stories in Messaging

35:38 Keeping Copy Human in an AI World

38:31 Actionable Steps for Better Messaging

Transcript

Evelina Kaganovitch

The chances of somebody buying that first moment that they see your brand is very low. So you need to build that trust with somebody through different touch points on your socials. Then, if you get them on your email list and they're going to check your website there, if you've got customer reviews and testimonials. So then the chances of that one person looking at your brand and buying from you and then buying from you again and recommending you to their friend or their work colleague goes up and up.

I always say it's better to go for quality than quantity cause when you are acquiring a customer, it's good to think long-term, not just ‘I want this person to buy from me right now.’ It's like, ‘I would like this person to come into my brand and into my journey and have a really nice experience.’ So then that hundred dollar purchase of their first product turns into ongoing. So the lifetime value of that customer goes up.

Instead of chasing these vanity metrics and also being really disappointed and burnt out, because if you're seeing these large numbers of traffic to your website and they're not converting, it's just exhausting and it's already so much pressure building your own brand and being a business owner that if you see those conversions also higher, like less numbers, but higher conversions, just on a mental, like emotional level, you feel better and more secure and that confirms to you that I'm doing the right things.

Glynis Tao

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

Glynis Tao

Today we're diving into a topic that every e-commerce founder has wrestled with at some point. Why is my website getting traffic, but no sales? My guest, Evelina Kaganovitch, believes the real problem isn't traffic, it's trust. Evelina is a messaging strategist and copywriter who helps creative founders turn their content, especially their email lists, into revenue engines. After burning out in fashion school and rebuilding her career in Berlin's startup scene, she discovered that most launches don't fail because of bad offers—they fail because of broken messaging. 

Since then, Evelina's worked with over 50 brands and founders worldwide, from Amazon Web Services and the Australian Fashion Council to indie fashion labels and coaches, crafting copy that doesn't just sound good—it sells. Known for making complex marketing feel simple, human and wildly effective, Evelina now runs her business on her own terms while raising her 3-year-old daughter Her work has been featured on the Successful Fashion Freelancer, the Content Bite Copywriters podcast, and more.

Welcome Evelina. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm a listener of your podcast, so it's really nice to be here with you.

Glynis Tao

It's so nice to have a fan come on as a guest. And you're based in Melbourne, Australia, right? 

Evelina Kaganovitch

That’s right, the other side of the world.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, that’s nice. I haven't had anyone from Australia come on as a guest yet, so you're the first. 

Evelina Kaganovitch

That’s pretty special.

Glynis Tao

Evelina, your journey from fashion school burnout to becoming a sought-after messaging strategist is incredible. How did that experience shape the way you approach brand storytelling today?

Evelina Kaganovitch

Yeah, the experience of burning out in fashion school, I actually hear this narrative over and over again from my clients and community and it's very common because it's just such a highly stressful, highly competitive industry. A lot of the time, the business owners I work with, they've gone through something similar, whether it was like a physical burnout or a mental burnout. So we have that connection to start with and they've gone into business for themselves so then they can live their life on their terms and they don't build their business but still have a work life balance. And a lot of the time when they start their business, they actually create a new job for themselves and get stuck into this flywheel as well. And on top of that, have the pressure of making enough revenue to pay and cover their own bills. 

So it's quite a layered approach. For me, I was always interested, always curious and very entrepreneurial. This kind of progression from going from fashion school to working in the startup world, abroad to then coming back, I mean like I want to do this for myself and work with business owners. It was very natural. Like it didn't feel forced at all and a big reason why I feel that I am in the right space. So it was like a very natural progression and around the time of COVID, as most of us had a lot more time, especially in Australia, when everything was in lockdown and there were very strict restrictions, I was able to commit that time to like really honing in my skills and asking myself like, what do you want to do? Like, what do you want your future to look like? And that's led me to where I am today.

Glynis Tao

And so many founders in fashion struggle to communicate their value without sounding salesy. How did your background in fashion shape your approach to writing copy that actually sells while staying authentic?

Evelina Kaganovitch

I think the great thing coming from a fashion background and working with similar business owners is that creativity is so strong and the stories are really strong and powerful. It's about blending those human stories, like where somebody's come from. A lot of the time, if the brand is a smaller business, the values of the brand are the reflection of the founder themselves because they started it based on something they wanted for themselves or where they were in their life a couple of years ago. And they help these brand owners pick out this story, like draw it out from them, and I've got like some tactics that I use to do that to really make sure that when we write the copy or when their marketing goes live, it genuinely sounds like them because that's what builds trust and what people connect with rather than the salesy like ‘buy now’ like ‘discount’ or really powerful, really strong messaging that's just feels a bit icky. That's not what I'm about and the clients I work with are also not interested in that. 

I also think marketing, and I'm curious to hear your perspective too, tends to have a bad reputation. It's slimy and tacky and almost shameful if you're marketing your business or your product, but I try and reframe it in my client's head to say like, ‘if you've got like a wonderful product or service that you've been working on, it's almost like you're doing your audience a disservice by not sharing that message.’ If you've got this great line and they're actually looking for something like that and they buy from you and they're going to be so happy and keep coming back, then that's actually a really positive thing that your marketing did. So it's also getting over that mental state and those limiting beliefs. Then it actually comes quite naturally as well.

The founders I work with are always really impressed with how this sounds really like me. Like this is how I would talk, but it's framed in a way that really entices the audience to come into their world, to learn more about their products, to buy in as well at the end, but in a really genuine human way.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, I can relate to that as well as a former clothing brand owner. I would be hiding behind my clothing and be really afraid to tell my story, but I am a small business, you know? I produce a lot of this stuff myself, but I made this illusion that it looked like it was a big brand, I'm very corporate. I don't know why I did that, but I was kind of afraid to really tell my story. I guess I had this feeling that if people knew that these products were made by this girl on her kitchen table, that it wouldn't be good quality and it wouldn't have that credibility and they wouldn't trust it or something like that. It was just really hard for me to even put myself out there without feeling like I was sounding salesy just to ask people to take a look at the product.

So I really struggled with it. I really understand what you mean about getting over that block with sales.

Evelina Kaganovitch

And that's the magic, like where you do talk about your story and your audience buys from you because they're like, ‘I resonate with her’ or I know that you talk about your son and they'll resonate with you, maybe at that stage, not yet, but they'll resonate with parts of your life. That's what will make them buy in because realistically, especially in the fashion world, there are so many different brands, there are so many different products. Even if you, you know, you've got a unique way to design or do something, the chances are that there's nothing comparable to it at all is very low, realistically. So it's that story—opening up to your audience and just sharing like, ‘I've created this brand out of my love for this,’ or ‘it came out of this place and was going through this stage of my life.’ ‘This was my creative outlet.’ That's what makes people connect as well and talk about it more and say, ‘I want to be a part of this journey with you.’

Compared to going on Shein or on Temu and buying something fast fashion, like most of the time, that's not the audience. That's not the customer that a smaller business owner is going for, so don't compete with them. Do it in your way.

Glynis Tao

Yes, I've gotten better at it over the years, I would say—telling the story now. You often say most launches don't fail because of bad products, but because of broken messaging. What does that mean for fashion e-commerce founders?

Evelina Kaganovitch

So firstly, what comes to mind is that I see a lot of, just to understand where it comes from, a lot of fashion brand owners, especially smaller businesses, start their business because they have this great idea or they come from a fashion background and they want to share their ideas. Once they start their business, they start realizing that the actual designing creative part is like 5% of everything it takes cause then you've got production, you've got your sales, your marketing, your customer service, and the list goes on and on. Then you're trying to create all these things and scrambling. 

Now a lot of brand owners are turning to AI as well. So one of the things that is making these launches, I don't want to say fail, but not be as successful as they could be is this like generic messaging because if you start seeing, as a customer, if you start seeing ads that just say like, ‘unleash your inner goddess’ or something along those lines and then you scroll and then you're getting similar ads for similar products and the next ad says the exact same thing, you're just turned off by it. Even if people on social media, if they're not working in this field and they can't straight up say, this is AI-generated, they'll feel like something is off and that initial like intuitive connection. And I also feel like women have that more too, naturally biologically, you just feel like something is off and like it didn't feel right. So that messaging also in communicating your story is one thing and making it sound authentic. 

And the other layer is a lot of brand owners, I see them jumping straight to targeting people who are ready to buy, and when we look at like the levels of awareness in marketing, it's actually like a bit of a slope or it's linear in terms of somebody goes from they don't even know they have a problem to the extreme, the fifth stage of ‘I'm ready to buy in your product is the answer to my prayers.’ A lot of the time, what I see is brand owners targeting that like ‘I'm ready to buy’ stage rather than somebody who's never seen or knows anything about your brand, like showing them a little bit more, like educating them or pointing out like, if you're getting breakouts after you go to the gym on your legs and you can't work out, it could actually be that the leggings you're wearing are really high in plastic—made from synthetic materials—so when your skin clashes with the chemicals in it, it can create this rash. And then proposing if you swap to a more natural alternative, then this problem could be eliminated and then introducing your product. If you know, you're a more, natural sports brand in that sense. Just to paint a very literal example for your listeners. 

So that's another disconnect that I see happening a lot of the time. Those would be the top two. A lot of the time, it actually stems from not having been super clear on who your audience is, and that comes down to the research. Really go deep—who is your audience or your customer? What are their pain points? What do they want? Really deep, not surface level. Also blending that and balancing it with who you are as a brand and how do you find that middle point between your values and what your customers want and then communicating effectively.

Glynis Tao

Because many fashion brand websites look and feel and sound beautiful, but they have problems with conversions. What are the common messaging mistakes that you see on products and sales pages?

Evelina Kaganovitch

So specifically in fashion, it's funny because it's such an elusive, glamorous industry. You see the couture shows and all this. It's like a different world. You're transported to somewhere else, which is really beautiful and very magical. But then when you filter it down to the average customer, they're not buying into that fantasy. They need something that solves a certain problem. They need a new workout outfit. They've just had a baby and their body's changed. They need something to suit their life now. 

What I see with fashion specifically, and I think it comes down to this creativity that lives inside—like just creatives and fashion designers and people who have started their own brands—you want to overemphasize things. So I see the language is very over the top and confusing. It's very complex words, very complex language, which when you break it down and you read it, and especially to a consumer/a customer who's on your website, it's just confusing. It doesn't say anything. Talking about ‘this is a mystical so-and-so with like elaborate this type of sleeve.’ It's just confusing, and someone will click out compared to if we look more at say the information space or products, like food brands. It's just really straight to the point. It's really clear. A fifth grader would understand what it means. So I see a big part of that in the fashion space specifically. And a lot of the time, and I think it comes from this conditioning, maybe in some ways from fashion school, the more you over-complicate, the more glamorous and deconstructed you make it sound, but you have to remember that your customers don't come from that space, at least 99% of them. So speak to like that normal person that's just out in their day.

Glynis Tao

Don’t use the really technical or industry lingo.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Exactly. Yeah. It's like most people don't understand that. They like your product. They think visually it's beautiful. It suits whatever function they need it for. Say they're going on a holiday for the summer and they need a new bikini or bathers. Firstly, of course it's fashion—it’s a creative space. Visually it needs to stand out. Then they'll be like, does it tick my boxes? And the more clearly you can communicate that, then the more likely you are to get that sale.

Glynis Tao

When we first met, we chatted about the importance of building trust and credibility, not only with your customers, but with AI search. Studies show that it really matters what type of content you put out there. I've been having conversations with other retail e-commerce experts, and the consensus has been that it's important to emphasize building trust factor with your customers and AI search engines such as ChatGPT and Perplexity because people are asking complex questions. So the better you're able to answer people's questions—answer their pain points and challenges—the better you're able to build that trust with them. And as a result, AI search is picking that up as well. 

You had said that traffic isn't a real issue—trust is. Why do so many fashion founders focus on getting more visitors instead of nurturing the ones they already have?

Evelina Kaganovitch

I feel like it comes, it's also this conditioning that we have, the more, the better. The more people see it, the more chances that they'll buy instead of focusing on a smaller amount, but more quality because even if we're looking at it from the perspective of where does your customer find out about you first, a lot of the time it's going to come either from your organic social media content or from paid social media. There's so much scam online on the internet everywhere that the chances of somebody buying that first moment that they see your brand is very low. So you need to build that trust with somebody through different touch points on your socials. Then if you get them on your email list, they're to check your website there. If you've got customer reviews and testimonials. So then the chances of that one person looking at your brand and buying from you and then buying from you again and recommending you to their friend or their work colleague, goes up and up. 

So I always say it's better to go for quality than quantity, cause also when you are acquiring a customer, it's good to think long-term, not just I want this person to buy from me right now. It's like, I would like this person to come into my brand and into my journey and have a really nice experience so then that hundred dollar purchase of their first product turns into ongoing. So the lifetime value of that customer goes up. So instead of chasing these vanity metrics and also being really disappointed and burnt out, because if you're seeing these large numbers of traffic to your website and they're not converting, it's just exhausting. It's already so much pressure building your own brand and being a business owner that if you see those conversions also higher, like less numbers, but higher conversions, just on a mental, like emotional level, you feel better and more secure. That confirms to you that I'm doing the right things. I'm showing my product to the right people and they like it. It's resonating with them and they're buying. So I'm going to do more of what's working rather than plastering everything everywhere and hoping it sticks. So rather than trying to be everywhere at once and posting here, there, and everywhere, just focus on what is working and do more of that content that resonates with your audience rather than posting everywhere and just exhausting yourself. It's so much work and not seeing those numbers convert as well.

Glynis Tao

What are some signs a fashion brand has a trust gap where customers are landing on their site but not buying?

Evelina Kaganovitch

You'll see that, as we were saying before, a lot of traffic coming in, but those actual conversions of people purchasing or at minimum signing up to your email list, being really, really low. What I see when a website gets a lot of traffic, but really low conversions, is that typically it just means people are turning. Something on the website's not sticking. It could be the messaging, it could be visual—the site, how it looks. It's also partly the text. If it doesn't make sense or if you've got large chunks of text everywhere, a lot of the time people get overwhelmed and turn—they go and leave. 

If you're seeing these people leaving and exiting your site or not buying and not exploring the website and looking at it, you can check this data on the backend to see what is the average time that somebody spends on your site. Is it a first time visitor, second time visitor? I'm sure you are really knowledgeable and experienced in these elements yourself. And then you're also not seeing people signing up to your list. That's a sign that something, you know, is not resonating. It could be a mismatch between the ad that they're saying or your social content, and then they're going on your site and it's just not matching up. They don't feel like it's a smooth continuation of that user journey and it's worth looking at the numbers and looking at where that drop off is in your funnel and identifying those pain points and working on fixing it up. Even just improving those numbers by a couple of percent in each stage of that user journey. By the end of it, you'll see such a big difference in your actual conversions.

Glynis Tao

Why do you believe email marketing is a missing link between traffic and sales for e-commerce?

Evelina Kaganovitch

I think because email is a really powerful way to build brand trust and it's also a very measurable platform. Compared to social media where the data you get is ‘how many people saw your content or your reel’, on email, what it tells you is exactly who opened, exactly who checked, how many times and who clicked. It's also not rented land like social media. That means that anytime the social media platforms crash, you lose everything you've done. Email is such a powerful way to build trust and be with your audience one-on-one. Also if your email company crashes or goes out of business, you can just take your list somewhere else and sign up to a new platform compared to this social grind. And the data on email shows that it’s the highest conversion rate across like SEO and also ads. The statistics show the 36:1 conversion rate. Of course, take it with a grain of salt. Every business and every industry is a little bit different, but that just gives you a bit of an idea that email is very powerful and it's worth investing in. 

And the other reason is because a lot of the time when somebody first finds out about your brand, they're not so likely to buy from you, but they are likely to sign up to your list if you offer like a small discount for the first purchase or you've got something special going on to entice them in. And then over time, you can nurture them and educate them through your emails. If you've got a launch coming up or a promotion, you can send that to your list and they can buy directly from there. So when we look at some of the biggest ecom brands in the world, they're very email heavy—very focused on that part of their marketing channel. It's like that middle funnel point.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, and it's true that you own your email list, you don't own your followers on social media.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Exactly.

Glynis Tao

And if it were to shut down, then you wouldn't be able to take your followers with you.

Evelina Kaganovitch

It's so heartbreaking. I've had it happen in my partner's business. It's a small business and you work for a long time building your community and then something happens and you can't get it back. I'm working with a client right now who has built a big Facebook community and then it just crashed. It's like years of work. It's just really disappointing. It's really like a stab in the heart a little bit.So on email, luckily, you don't have that problem.

Glynis Tao

Can you explain how automated email sequences like ‘welcome’ or ‘post-purchase’ flows can help create familiarity and credibility over time?

Evelina Kaganovitch

Automated sequences are so good because you create them once and then they get sent automatically to certain people on your list. You don't have to think about it. You do the work once you set it and you forget it. And there's some key flows that, especially for e-com brands, are really powerful and can really set a good tone. Say for the welcome sequence, when you are just building that relationship, when it's the first touch point with somebody.

And then if we're talking about abandoned cart emails, a lot of the time, people are so busy. You might have something in your cart and then like your kid needs you and they're hungry and you have to go make them a banana smoothie. So you forget! Abandoned cart email could be like, ‘Hey, we noticed this was still in your car and are you interested?’ Even maybe after some time you can give a little incentive, like an extra $5 off or something. 

Those little, triggered emails really help either a) build trust and nurture your audience or b) get that sale over the line. I think it's also worth explaining that automated email sequences are the ones that you create once and they are sent to a list based on a certain trigger or behavior. So when somebody signs up to your list, they automatically get sent an email. So somebody could sign up on Monday and they get that email on Monday. And if somebody signs up on Friday, they get that exact same email when they sign up on Friday. Compared to broadcast, more evergreen emails, campaigns that you create and you send to your list weekly. If you send your campaigns on a Wednesday and somebody signed up to your list on Thursday, then they would miss out on that campaign on that week cause it's just triggered by the time you send it.

Glynis Tao

From your experience, what kinds of emails actually help fashion brands drive revenue beyond the typical sale announcement or product drop?

Evelina Kaganovitch

A lot of the time, the ‘welcome’ emails are really powerful because that's the first impression somebody has with your brand. I would really focus on that and make it quite personal, like sharing your story, sharing your journey, and then obviously sharing your products as well. A lot of the time, people buy from people—we buy from humans. If somebody's on your list, they're probably interested in a smaller, founder-led business that cares and shares the same values as them. 

So showing that you're human, showing the person behind it, sharing your story, where you came from, sets a really good first impression. And then building on that with time cause I understand everyone has different levels of time to dedicate to their emails and different resources to invest in it. But if you start with one thing to get it right, set that tone nicely and then build on that.

Glynis Tao

Is there a number of how many emails you should be sending out weekly, monthly?

Evelina Kaganovitch

There's no one perfect answer. Every brand is different. If we're talking about the weekly emails or things that are ongoing, one thing to consider is—this is more on the backend of your systems—how you're tagging your audience and making sure people are not receiving like numerous emails a day because that just feels spammy. I'm sure you've seen that in your inbox—unsubscribing when somebody tries to email you like every single day. And that's a lot of work if you're running your business by yourself.

So I always say, get your sequences set up, the most important ones, and then when you go to do your normal like marketing emails, get into a routine and rhythm that works for you. Perhaps that could be starting with one email every two weeks. Once you're in a good flow, you've worked it out, you've gotten faster at it because you know what to do and how to do it, then you can go up to one email a week.

Typically for clients, I would do two emails a week, like on a normal week where there's nothing major happening. If it's more of an e-com or even service based business brand, there seems to be a nice middle point where you're checking in twice a week, like a friend, but you're not like love bombing them. And then when you do have a promotion or a sale coming up, I think it's fair to send a few more and people expect that, but not all the time. My mom told me the other day that she purchased this product and she was really excited and the product was really nice. And then she's like, I just got so turned off because they email me every day. How do I turn it off? I'm sick of it. So just thinking about the end user’s mind as well. People are busy. They don't need to hear from you every day. It's too much.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, well at least have some sort of option—I don't want to unsubscribe completely. I still want to receive them, but not as frequently. That would be nice.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Yeah, actually, I think a lot of the time, brands are not intending on sending so many emails, especially the more small to medium sized ones who now have somebody supporting them with their marketing. It just may even be that on the backend, it's not set up in the correct way and what I mean by that is it's not tagged. Like if this person receives this email, don't send them the next one. So they're actually getting a bunch of sequences at once, even though the general idea is well-wished and the idea is that they get like two a week, but it's just not configured correctly on the tech side. So they're getting everything.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, because there is a techie component to doing your email marketing—setting up all the automations and stuff like that. You’ve got to be considerate. I'm on both sides because as the sender of emails and as receiver as well, I'm on a lot of email lists and I sign up because I want to hear from them. I want to hear from them, but when the emails get to be a little too frequent, then it is a little bit of a turnoff. So I feel like there is this balance there.

Evelina Kaganovitch

100%. It's like dating. Like if you just met someone and they're texting you every day, like, ‘let's hang out.’ I don't know about you, but I'd be like, no, thank you.

Glynis Tao

Everything can relate back to dating.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Yeah, exactly. It's just annoying. It's like, no, let me be slow. Do it in a classy tasteful way. If you're not sure, less is more.

Glynis Tao

Could you share a success story example where great messaging turned an underperforming campaign into a win?

Evelina Kaganovitch

Yeah, so a few things come to mind. I've been working with a client for like two years now. What we saw at the start when I came in was that they had a really big list, but their engagement was very low. People weren't clicking. I think the clicks were like under 5% or something. And I was like, this is odd because we're hitting all the marks—we're talking to the pain points. What’s going on?

So we ran a re-engagement series of really value-driven emails that we knew the list would be interested in, like sending some free downloads, some really valuable advice. And what we did was we started with a smaller list segment, so the ones that were really engaged, to build up that trust factor and also for the email service provider to stop sending us to spam and basically for it to say, ‘yeah, this is a credible company.’ ‘It's not spam.’ ‘Send it to the inbox.’

We started seeing open rates up 70%. As those opens went up, we started increasing the list size. We started adding in less engaged subscribers, and by the end—it was like a four to six week process—we managed to revamp that list and bring it back to life. Now it's been such a powerful communication and sales mechanism for my client, which is really great. We also cut a lot of subscribers off the list. That's also nice to do to—clean them out. You don't need to hold onto people that don't want to be there. 

And another win, which I was really excited about, cause this is like a very small business, was I was working with a woman who is an expert in the pattern-making stage with six plus decades of experience. And she's written a series of books. Her life mission is to get them out there and share her work, which she hasn't done up until this stage. So what I did was implement a basic funnel system to start getting her audience into her ecosystem. I call it a wardrobe—a content closet—to get them to learn more about what she does. In the first week or like the first 10 days from when we started posting, we're focusing on getting her audience from LinkedIn, which is about 300 people to her email list. And then slowly sharing about her and her story and then sharing her books and through a lead magnet. And she had 30 something people sign up in the first week, which I was like, wow, like this is great to go from absolutely zero to that is a really, really positive outcome. And she made a sale from that really tiny list. I don't remember if it was like 150 or 250, but she was stoked. It's not a huge amount, but it shows that it works and out of 30 people that received her email, at least one purchased. So that was a really nice win. made me really happy for her.

Glynis Tao

That's wonderful. You had said in the very beginning of this interview that one of the drawbacks of AI is that it sounds very AI and most of us can recognize it. Unleash your email marketing, something blah, blah, blah. It’s always those words that always come up. So with so many AI tools writing content today, how can fashion founders keep their copy sounding human and true to their brand?

Evelina Kaganovitch

So I actually have this one technique and I use it for myself and my clients. I really love it because it's like utilizing this power of AI, but also having you speaking it. What I do is I pull out notes, conversations, transcripts from meetings, from calls—whatever that may be where you're speaking— then asking the AI to analyze and say, ‘what are those common themes that I talk about?’ ‘What is relevant for me?’ And then turning voice notes—I ask for my clients to send me a story through a voice note—into an email because a lot of the time when we speak human to human, that's natural. You don't overthink it, but for somebody who's not a writer or a marketer, they sit down to write something and you get brain fog and you're stressed and you're overthinking it. A lot of the time how somebody would speak with their friend sounds so different compared to when they sit down and write an email or a social post. It feels stiff. It feels not right. It feels awkward or corporatey or they're using AI and it sounds really spammy or they're blending the two and it just doesn't match who they are. So I use voice notes and actual transcripts to turn that into content that sounds like the actual person.

Glynis Tao

That's a really great tip because I record all my meetings I have with people and I found that even just using the transcript or the meeting summary notes and feeding it through and asking it to pick out the important points and maybe taking that and turning it into a blog outline at least gives you a starting point to start to work on that content. At least you've got something to work with and AI will help you do that. And it’ll still keep the messaging and it's coming from you. It's not completely AI-generated.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Exactly, and it can be really hard to come up with this content, like ideas and constantly being like, what do I post? But you already have, as you said, that plugin to your meetings, those transcripts. Going through the content you already have and recycling it, just like recycling clothes or re-wearing things. Reuse what you already have because that just takes so much pressure off you. And then also it's relevant because you're having those conversations already. You know your customers, your audience is asking those questions or talking about it. So use that to your advantage. Like you said, if you are blending this human and AI element, run it into the AI. 

And one tip is to upload—don't copy and paste the content. Download or upload a PDF or a text file for some reason, ChatGPT reads it better like that. And you can say, ‘pick out the exact words that I use, don't change anything’ and that's a really good starting point. That's already the 80% that people struggle with the most—getting the first draft ready and getting your ideas out on paper. Once you've got that there, then you start getting into the zone and it comes more naturally. It flows.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, that's great advice. What's one or two steps that our listeners can take this week to start improving their messaging or email marketing results?

Evelina Kaganovitch

I would say go back to basics and just have a look at your customer. Also, your customer may have evolved from where you started, so recheck that research. Check what are their pain points, create this avatar, give them a name and really build out this persona. So then the next time you are working on your marketing content, whether it’s emails or it's something else, you just have this one person and visualize them—we're creative people. Picture somebody and write and speak to them to make sure that your message connects and speaks to the right audience. 

And the other thing is if we're talking about email specifically, it can be a bit overwhelming when someone's saying like, set up your email marketing, do this, this. It's easier said than done. What I encourage you to do is not to overwhelm yourself cause I don't like that idea. It has to feel natural and comfortable. Just write out. Whether you hand write it on your computer or create a table with two columns, identify what you already have. What flows are set up or working and what do you not have? And then make a little list. You'll see where those gaps are and you can even on a piece of paper, sketch out that journey. Where does someone come from? They find me on socials and then they come here and here. And then you'll see there's a gap in this spot, so I'm going to pop something in. I think being a visual community too, it helps to have it in front of you in a visual sense where you can see and start filling in those gaps.

Glynis Tao

Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Evelina Kaganovitch

So you can find me on LinkedIn at Evelina Kreative and I've recently started a YouTube channel, so you're welcome to have a look at some videos. There's some helpful advice and tips on copywriting, specifically email marketing as well, and that's @evelinakreative with a K. I'll leave the links with you as well. That's a good starting point. I also have a guide that might be really helpful for somebody who just wants a quick win on their emails and that's a guide of a subject line swipe file that you can use for subject lines I've used and tested. Ones that perform well and don't sound AI generated. You can kind of plug and play to get some quick wins—some higher clicks on your emails.

Glynis Tao

Great, we will have those links in the show notes. Thank you, Evelina, for sharing your journey and expertise with us today.

Evelina Kaganovitch

Thank you so much for having me.

Glynis Tao

Thank you so much for tuning in. You can find me on Instagram, @glynistao, and my website, glynistao.com. Please subscribe to Chase Your Dreams podcast if you haven't already. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others who you think this may help. Lastly, it would be great if you left a rating and review for our podcast. See you next time!

How to Scale a Business Through Franchising with Rhea Lana Riner

by Glynis Tao | Oct 21, 2025 | Podcast

Rhea Lana Riner, founder of Rhea Lana’s Children’s Consignment Events, shares her 28-year-long entrepreneurial journey. What started as a simple clothing swap in her living room transformed into a multi-million dollar franchise, striving to make high-quality children’s clothes accessible and affordable. With an emphasis on community, values, and personal growth in entrepreneurship, Riner offers insights into what it’s like starting a business as a woman from the ground up. She discusses how she started her business, challenges she overcame, and rewarding experiences that made the challenges all worth it. The conversation highlights the significance of storytelling, the resale market, and the power of franchising in building a successful business.

About Rhea Lana Riner

Rhea Lana Riner is the visionary entrepreneur, CEO, and founder of Rhea Lana's Children's Consignment Events. In 1997, Riner held a simple clothing swap in her living room, seeking low-cost, high-quality children’s clothes. Since then, she has transformed her clothing swaps into a multi-million dollar national franchise with over 120 locations across 26 states. As a mother of three, Riner has always known that this business is about more than just clothes. Her events aim to empower moms, build community, and create flexible pathways to entrepreneurship. Riner has helped thousands of families access high-quality, affordable children's merchandise and has mentored franchise owners to grow professionally, personally, and spiritually. For the past 28 years, Riner continues to be a leader in the ecommerce space, building a values-driven business and inspiring women to take on leadership roles.

Contact info

Website:  ⁠www.rhealana.com/

Instagram: instagram.com/rhealanas/⁠

Takeaways

• Franchising offers a unique way to scale a brand sustainably.
• Connecting to the heart of your customer is essential.
• Fostering a community around your brand builds loyalty.
• Women can lead and grow businesses without compromising family values.
• Storytelling is a powerful tool for brand connection.
• As a leader, personal growth is the key to long-term business success.

Interview Themes

Why does storytelling and emotional connection matter to a business?

Storytelling and emotional connection with your audience are essential because they help bring authenticity and humanity to a brand. Riner emphasizes that customers want to know who the people are behind a business. Customers value having that relationship between themselves and the brand, which is why having a story for customers to connect and relate with is important. An authentic brand fosters community and builds loyalty and trust.

What does holistic leadership look like in a business? Why is it important?

Holistic leadership means leading in a way that embraces the whole person. For Riner, that means integrating values of personal growth, family, and faith into her business. This results in a balanced and sustainable leadership that cultivates a work culture where people feel genuinely valued and empowered to grow professionally and personally. Through this approach, the well-being of the leadership team and the employees are equally valued. 

What are the benefits of franchising?

Franchising allows businesses to scale in a sustainable, community-driven way. By empowering entrepreneurs to own and grow a portion of the brand in a local market, the company can expand its reach organically. Franchising also results in the formation of a network of like-minded entrepreneurs—a meaningful support system with shared business goals. Taking a slow, intentional approach to franchising helps ensure that growth is both effective and aligned with the company’s core values.

How does being a mother impact how you run your business?

For Rhea Lana Riner, going from a stay-at-home mom to a successful franchise leader was more natural than it may seem. Her experience as a mother deeply shaped Riner’s leadership style and approach to business. Lessons from motherhood equipped her with valuable skills—problem solving, crisis management, and communication—that are all applicable to leadership roles in the business world. Rooted in strong family values, Riner’s business also reflects her empathy for her customers. As a mother herself, Riner knew what moms needed and how her business could fulfill those needs. For Riner, motherhood was essential leadership training.

What advice would you give female entrepreneurs?

Don’t underestimate yourself

Riner often finds that many women hesitate to take the first step toward entrepreneurship or leadership because they doubt their own abilities. Recognize the strength and skills you already possess and put them to good use. Confidence develops with action, and oftentimes, women are far more capable than they believe. Be brave enough to begin.

Stay balanced

There is no need to sacrifice your personal values for the sake of success. Embracing holistic leadership is a great way to ensure that you’re focusing on not just the success of your company, but also your personal well-being. By aligning your business with your core beliefs and maintaining boundaries, you can build a company that thrives whilst supporting your personal lifestyle.

Always be open to learning

As a business owner, expect the unexpected. The life of a business is unpredictable and difficult challenges are inevitable, which is why learning to adapt is vital to running a successful business. Whether it’s learning new skills or adjusting your business strategy, staying adaptable and open to learning will prepare you for the ups and downs of running a business.

Chapters

00:00 Building a Community-Driven Brand

09:39 The Journey from Living Room to Franchise

19:28 Balancing Family and Entrepreneurship

29:28 Lessons in Sustainability and Resale Models

Transcript

Rhea Lana Riner

I think for me it has always been about connecting to the heart and making sure that I understand the needs of their family and their children. We have certain values that we go by—honesty and positivity. I think when you operate by a set of values and you stay true to your word, your customers see that. They see how you fill orders and how you, if someone complains, how do you handle customer service? Are you kind and are you authentic? And all those things play out in normal business operations. I think those things build brand loyalty and they build community because I've learned that community naturally builds around brands that we all love, you know, and then we love to share. I love this about this brand. This is this wonderful product that I got. This is the incredible customer service that they gave me. And I think those things all build community.

Glynis Tao

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

Today on Chase Your Dreams, I'm thrilled to welcome Rhea Lana Riner, visionary entrepreneur, CEO, and founder of Rhea Lana's Children's Consignment Events. What began in 1997 as a simple clothing swap in her living room has since grown into a multi-million dollar national franchise with over 120 locations across 26 states. But for Rhea Lana, this business has always been about more than clothes. It's about empowering moms, building community and creating flexible pathways to entrepreneurship. She's helped thousands of families access high-quality, affordable children's merchandise and has mentored franchise owners to grow not just in business, but personally, professionally and even spiritually. In today's conversation, we'll explore how to build a community-driven brand that goes beyond products, why finding balance as a mom and entrepreneur is possible and essential, the lessons fashion ecommerce founders can take from franchising, resale and consignment models, and how to grow a profitable business while staying true to your values. Welcome, Rhea Lana. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Rhea Lana Riner

Hi Glynis, it is a pleasure to be here.

Glynis Tao

Wonderful. So Rhea Lana, your business began as a clothing swap in your living room back in 1997. Can you share that moment when you realized this idea could grow into a franchise business?

Rhea Lana Riner

It was several years after I started. I didn't have a business background, didn't have a business education, and so really it was an accident, if I have to be completely honest. I started in my living room. I was a stay-at-home mom, and at the time my husband had left the corporate world and had gone into nonprofit work. Our money was tight and I was looking for a creative solution to be able to buy and sell my own kids’ clothes.

I loved shopping secondhand, but I just didn't feel like there was a high-quality experience at the time. And so, I invited some friends and I moved the furniture out of our living room. We had that very first sale in my living room. 

And then the second sale, we decided to computerize it. My husband developed our software on the side. It was kind of just a little passion project. That doesn't mean anything now, Glynis, because we all carry around phones in our hand and they’re little, mini computers. But back in the mid 1990s, that was a big deal. Stay-at-home moms like me did not even have computers in their houses. So from early on, we were able to use computerization and technology to create this high-quality secondhand shopping experience. 

And you asked about when it felt like it could turn into a franchising concept. It really took several years, but it did grow. They're pop-up events, so I only did it twice a year, but each time it would grow and take over another part of the house. I realized that there were so many moms like me out there that were also looking to not only sell their children's things for a fair price that they had taken good care of, but they wanted to be able to buy things at a fair price. So gradually, it grew and I could tell that I was meeting a need.

Glynis Tao

Fashion entrepreneurs often start small and sometimes even out of their homes. I did as well when I had my clothing brand I started on my kitchen table. So what lessons from your early days would you pass along to those building e-commerce brands today?

Rhea Lana Riner

Well, I think for one thing, stay true to your heart. What is it that you want to do with your brand? I think I was that mom and I knew who my customer was. For me, I needed to start small. I think this probably applies to other people. I didn't take a lot of investment money from people. We bootstrapped it and we only grew as we could afford to grow. 

And then I think it's important to just stay in balance. I also had small children at home and I wanted to still stay true to my family values while I was trying to build this business. And so, it was important for me to be able to align both of those values. I didn't want to give up my family just to build some brand, cause I didn't want to get to the end of my life and be by myself. And so, I do think it's important to keep our priorities and our values combined so that we can find balance and do both.

Glynis Tao

Mm-hmm. So I read on your about page, your story, how you started this business out of your garage—just out of a need that you saw from families needing to make some extra money and selling their products consignment. They weren't able to get very much money from consignment stores. And so you thought of a different way, a different model that you created that didn't even exist at the time, to be able to solve this problem and this need, which you probably experienced yourself as a mom, right?

Rhea Lana Riner

Yes, I definitely did. You're right.

Glynis Tao

And so, from your story, it sounded like your husband had helped you in the early days, suggesting that maybe you use some computerized technology and you're like, ‘well, I don't know if moms really even use computers.’ But then, you found out that he was right and it really then helped you to launch your business and grow. 

Rhea Lana Riner

You’re right!

Glynis Tao

Is it by embracing that aspect of it? Can you tell us a bit about that story?

Rhea Lana Riner

Absolutely, you're exactly right. When he first suggested it to me, I told him he was crazy. Like, there is no way that moms were going to do that. I absolutely did. Because again, moms didn't have computers in their houses. I didn't even know how to use a computer. We joke that he was definitely the visionary. Another joke we like to say is we had the only barcoded garage sale in the world in the 1990s because we were scanning tags and had barcodes and we would be able to give each consigner a report of exactly what she had sold. 

And yes, it did come from my own experiences. I had consignment stores, but I just kind of felt when I would take things to sell at the consignment store, for one thing, I made a very small percentage of the earnings. I never knew what sold or for how much, and I just felt like I wanted to create a very authentic experience. And so, from that very first time with my husband's software, we would give each consigner, all 11 consignors or 15 at the time, a report. They could see each item that sold and exactly how much. And then we gave a very high percentage back. Back then it was 70%. Now we have to give 65%. We lost a fight with the government and had to change our percentage a little bit. But, we were able to give a very high percentage and I loved doing that cause I thought moms should get more of their money for their items. 

Those were some of the unique things that we were able to do because we were in this event. We weren't having to open a store and people would say through the years, ‘Rhea Lana, when are you going to get serious and open a store?’ And I said, ‘never, never.’ That was never my goal—to open a store. I really wanted to do just these pop-up events. That way moms could gear up and clean out their house in the fall and then in the spring. That's what we love doing—just doing it twice a year. I just felt like that also fit with moms. Moms are so busy and have so many demands, but if they could just do once a year, really focus on cleaning things out and then as far as shopping, they could buy everything that their children need for the whole season. And so that's how it started. 

And yes, technology has always been part of our solution. I would have an operational challenge at my events and then we would use technology to solve that problem for us. And it has definitely been a reason that we could continue to grow and have this now. I remember when it was small, Glynis, in my home, and I knew I could do it well in my home. I knew I could make it look like a boutique and have nice items, but I wondered, could we ever do it at a large scale? And so, it's really rewarding for me that we can now offer really large events in a space that's like 50,000 square feet—like a large Walmart or a large department store—and it's this beautiful marketplace where things are run excellently. It makes my heart happy because we can bring families in and they can have this excellent experience.

Glynis Tao

What is the process like when a franchisee first starts to work with you and how do you get them set up and started?

Rhea Lana Riner

Well, once a person is approved to be a franchisee, they of course have a fee that they pay to us. And then we take them through training. They get the Rhea Lana branding, they have our marketing materials, an operations manual. We do have some extensive training that they go through. They even come to our flagship event and train with my team. I still run our flagship event. And I love it because it's kind of a laboratory where I can still see our customers and I can test out new things. And I have my team, so they train with our flagship team. Once they have their first event, we will send someone to help them launch. And then we have continued support. We like to think about franchising as doing business in the community. We have this wonderful community of women helping women and we just know that we all rise together and we're all building this brand together. I love the idea of franchising. It's been a real blessing to me because you can build these deep friendships, but all around the same brand that we are all building together as we're serving families.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, and that just leads right into my next question on building a community-driven brand. You've created not just a business, but a marketplace that fosters community among moms. How did you intentionally build that sense of connection and what can fashion e-commerce founders learn about creating loyal customer communities online?

Rhea Lana Riner

Well I think it starts with understanding the heart of your customer. What is in their heart? What are they looking for? What needs are you meeting as the provider of that product? But I think for me, it has always been about connecting to the heart and making sure that I understand the needs of their family and their children. We have certain just values that we go by—honesty and positivity. I think when you operate by a set of values and you stay true to your word, your customers see that. They see how you fill orders and how you, if someone complains, how do you handle customer service? Are you kind? Are you authentic? All those things play out in normal business operations, and I think those things build brand loyalty and they build community because I've learned that community naturally builds around brands that we all love and then we love to share. I love this about this brand and this is this wonderful product and I got and this is this incredible customer service that they gave me. And I think those things all build community and loyalty.

Glynis Tao

In fashion, storytelling is critical. How have you leveraged storytelling for both your own and your franchisees to strengthen your brand and movement?

Rhea Lana Riner

Well, storytelling is, it's just authentic. It's because we all are living out our own lives and our journeys and I think our customers want to know what those stories are. I do think we have to get good at how to communicate them and express the emotion of the stories. 

At our events, we get to see so many families whose needs are met. There was one time a family came in and their daughter had just finished cancer treatments—I think she was 10 years old—and the way they celebrated the end of each treatment was that they would buy her a hat. And so she had found this special hat at our event. Anyway, it just brought so much meaning to us because for us it was just a hat, but for them, it was this milestone in their daughter's health journey. When you can capture those stories in your business and tell them to your customers, those build even more community, they build loyalty, they build emotion. They show the emotion behind the brand. And then I think people also do want to know the people behind the brand. Who are the people that are building it? As we can tell those stories of our lives and our challenges, then people want to associate with that and they want to be part of that. It makes the brand come alive. It's not just a piece of clothing, it comes alive.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, but it also creates that support that people just want to get behind it as well.

Rhea Lana Riner

Yes.

Glynis Tao

It's not just about business, like I said, it's like a movement that you've created to be able to help moms get themselves off the ground, like get their businesses going, help to support their families. You often speak about helping moms navigate the many hats they wear. What advice do you give women entrepreneurs who are trying to balance scaling a business with family and personal responsibilities?

Rhea Lana Riner

I think a great perspective for women is to think that there are seasons of life. Like, life is different. And when I was getting started, I had three small children. Well, now I'm a grandma. I've got an empty nest and I've got five grandchildren. If we could have that perspective that life does change, then it gives us the long-term view. And some seasons, at least in my journey, I had to work a lot of hours. I mean, you know, entrepreneurs—I'm sure you experienced this too, Glynis—there are some years where I worked a lot. I mean, probably 60, 80, 100 hour weeks. Now I don't want to do that for 20 years, but there are some times when we do have to do what it takes. If we can, again, think through the seasons of life. We don't want to do that when our kids are small, they need us—they need us to be present. But as life changes, we do have more to give. We've got more bandwidth. We've got more time. And it’s fun. I've always looked at building a business a lot like raising children. You nurture it and then you get to watch this beautiful thing grow that you've poured your heart into. It is a wonderful thing, but I do think we have to balance the demands of family and business and think through what season of life am I in.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, and I can 100% relate to that. I'm a mom as well. I have a very energetic little 9-year-old boy, but prior to that, I also had a clothing brand which I ran for over 10 years. I called that my first baby because of the blood, sweat, and tears that I had put into that business and the countless hours. It just felt like it was another child of mine. And now, raising a real person is just a whole different level of responsibility. So as a mentor and leader, you've guided franchise owners to grow not just financially, but also personally, professionally and spiritually. Why is a holistic approach important and how can e-commerce founders apply that to their own teams?

Rhea Lana Riner

Well, we're all multi-dimensional people. We all have our values. We have our faith and we have our family and we have our work and all of those things are important. If we get it out of balance, it's like a wheel that's lopsided—it kind of clunks down the road. But if we can stay balanced, we get to create something beautiful. All of those things are important. And I love encouraging women though, as they are on this journey, to be sure that they're always growing personally because we want to become someone amazing down the road, right? It's one thing to be 20 years old. It's another thing to be 60. And you get this lifetime of experiences to keep growing from and challenges to overcome. And you can build resilience. But I do think part of that is stepping outside of our comfort zone and doing some new things. Overcoming challenges, you know. There were some years where we experienced big challenges. We fought the government. There was a regular regulation that they tried to say that we weren't up to it. Anyways, it was a long fight. It was like a nine year battle. But during that, it was such a great thing for me personally, because I got to grow as a leader. I ended up going to Washington, DC and testifying before Congress in the US. 

Also while I was doing that, I was leading my franchise owners and teaching women how you can fight with grace, stand on what is true, and don't give up. We want to just lay on the floor and cry, but we really, we got to fight this thing and we got to have grace. And then once you get through those things, it gives you the capacity and the ability to fight the next challenge that comes along because there will always be challenges. And then you get to develop this skillset that you didn't know you had. I think that's what I've learned. When I first started, I was very introverted. I was very insecure. I wasn't confident in speaking. But you learn those things. The more that you're forced to do them, you get better and then you have these skills. I do encourage women to really keep growing in areas that they didn't even know that they were good at because then you end up somewhere at the end of your life or you can look back and you can leave a legacy that impacts generations to come behind you and really leave the world in a more positive place. I love for women to keep discovering their passion and their purpose and keep pushing themselves to get better, become leaders. The world needs them.

Glynis Tao

I love that. Yeah, moms just don't often get the credit that they deserve for what they do. It's a full-time job being a stay-at-home mom. No one can imagine how much work it is. It's a 24/7 job, which I didn't know and have a lot more appreciation for now that I am a mom myself. Yes, definitely. Thank you. I love what you do and I love how you really empower women to build that confidence because I think women really don't think that they are strong, right? But they don't realize just how strong they are until certain challenges come up. They often find it within themselves. It just comes out and they're probably even surprised that they were able to get through something as hard or as challenging as it was.

Rhea Lana Riner

You're right. I agree with that so much. I often look back on the years when I had three children under four years old and I sometimes think those years were harder than being a CEO of a company. Moms are doing really hard things and they don't realize the skills that they are developing. So you are 100 % right. And I think that being a mom, it is 24/7. You're constantly doing crisis management and creative problem solving and communication and moms end up with an incredible skill set that's very valuable.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, I often feel like my brain is split in half—mom brain and I have the business brain as well. Half of it's focused on my son's learning at school and having to prepare him for some test— coming up with spelling tests. And I'm like, okay, I got to get back to this client, respond to these 10 emails that I have before the end of the day. It just goes back and forth.

Retail can be tough, whether it be in consignment, fashion, or e-commerce alike. How have you kept your business profitable and relevant over decades? What advice do you have for founders trying to build brands with staying power?

Rhea Lana Riner

That is such a great question. You know, I have recently visited with some founders and it is tough. Not every business is guaranteed to have lasting power. For one thing, I feel really grateful. I think it starts with your product. You have to make sure you have a product that has staying power. If you have a product that has staying power, that's a great place to start. I always say we're never going out of business because moms are going to keep having kids and kids are going to keep wearing clothes. So I am thankful for that. But then, I think you have to have a model that can stand the test of time. You also have to be able to pivot and change. For us, we went through this battle with the government and ultimately we did lose the battle. We're still very glad we did it. We had to make a pivot and we had to make some changes and it was a risk, but it worked out for us. So you have to be able to pivot when needed and watch the times and how do you make those changes? 

And I think too, as a founder, you have to grow. I remember I had heard of so many founders that held their businesses back—they were the reason their business didn't grow—and I never wanted to be one of those founders. And I think because I've always been so afraid of that, I may not be the best founder out there, but I'm going to try to be the best version of myself that I could be for my company. I think that's why personal growth has always been so important to me. I never really had a mentor, but I've read lots and lots of books and I'm always trying to see, who are the leaders out there that I can grow from? 

Part of being successful and staying in business is building teams around you. That's one of your first transitions as a founder is to go from being the lone person to then having people around you who understand the heart of the business, understand the operations, because if there's only one of you, you're gonna bottleneck really fast. That's part of growth—being able to duplicate yourself and then build teams. That's one of the things I've enjoyed doing. It's not easy and it's hard and you invest in people and sometimes people let you down or they betray you, but then you also find nuggets. You find these diamonds along the way of amazing people who you end up working so well together. Your strengths and your weaknesses complement each other. I love that I've got some women who've been with me for a very long time. And then even now, we're hiring new young women to our corporate team. I love putting teams of women together. And really, I think that's ultimately the key to long-term. You have to have layers of leadership, of buy-in, and that gives you a chance to stay in business for a long time.

Glynis Tao

And many of our listeners run fashion brands and are also thinking about scaling. What lessons from franchising could apply to entrepreneurs trying to grow their stores into bigger businesses?

Rhea Lana Riner

I do love franchising. Franchising gives you a way to grow a brand that you're bringing other business owners in. You don't have to necessarily personally spend out a lot of money creating products, but you have these other business owners that are coming in. They love this brand, and so they're going to go build it in their community. And that's what I love about franchising.

I'm the franchisor, so a portion of their sales comes back to the franchisor and that helps us to create this corporate office, corporate team, where we're constantly researching the best marketing methods. We're creating the marketing products, creating operations and support. And so it's been a wonderful way to scale and grow a brand that feels sustainable. It's like having, little many brands out there, but all under this umbrella of building this Rhea Lana's brand. We all want to serve families in all these markets. And so, I think franchising is a wonderful way to scale. 

My approach has always been slow and steady. I think some franchising companies want to grow super aggressively. My strategy has always been more of a slow growth because I want to make sure that I have a corporate team here that's equipped to provide adequate support for our franchise owners. And so, we have about 120 franchises right now, which is a lot. It's a great size, but we'd love to be 150. But we also want to have just enough that we can still provide adequate support.

Glynis Tao

Your franchise model provides women with flexible entrepreneurship opportunities. So what gaps did you see in the traditional business model ownership that made this path so powerful for you?

Rhea Lana Riner

I saw some gaps primarily in women leadership. I was trying to figure out a way that a woman like me could enjoy leadership, business, and growth while still having a family. Being able to stay true to all of her values and faith. My faith is the filter through which I make decisions and I wanted to stay true to who I was and not have to feel like I needed to compromise my values.

I think if I were going to say some of the gaps I've seen, that's what I have seen. The opportunities that I want to create for women, both as franchise owners and on my corporate team here, I'm trying to create an environment where women can raise their families, they can stay true to their faith, they can also have a wonderful career. Those are some of the gaps I've seen that I hope we have filled and we continue to fill and create more opportunities for women.

Glynis Tao

The resale and consignment space is booming now in fashion. What do you think fashion brands, especially smaller e-commerce brands, what can they learn from a consignment model about sustainability, pricing, and customer trust? Does a consignment model, could that even work for someone on an e-commerce level who owns an e-commerce business or is it more to do with in-person selling?

Rhea Lana Riner

I was thinking about some of the brands, some of the nice brands that I buy online, I have seen them reach back out to me and say, ‘hey, when you're ready to sell that, we would like to buy it from you.’ And I think they do have an e-commerce portion of their site where they sell gently used items. So it's just something to think about. I thought it's a great idea, honestly. And so maybe your audience can think about that and how to unpackage it. 

But, my background is, you know, I didn't come from a family with a lot of money and so I've never been able to afford expensive brands. And so, I think that also set the stage. It's one reason I loved secondhand. I like the value that high expensive fashion brings, but I couldn't afford the price tag. And I think that's what consignment has done. It gives you a way to afford the high-quality, high end brands for a cheaper price. I do think that families care about the price point. So if you can make your products, find that price point that families can afford. Make it high-quality enough though, so that they can resell it. 

I remember back when I was getting started years ago thinking about what I was gonna do, I lived in a small town in Texas in the US and there was only two places to shop. There was Walmart. Everybody knows what Walmart is, right? And this was in the 90s and clothes that came from Walmart, if you washed them once, they fell apart. They were terrible. So I didn't really want to buy clothes from Walmart for my kids. Or there was this really expensive boutique in town where, you know, one little onesie for my child cost, you know, over a hundred dollars. And that was in the 90s. And I knew it was a good brand, but I couldn't afford that. And so that's what made me think, ‘how can I create this middle space for moms like me who don't want Walmart, but they also can't afford the high fashion?’ 

I would encourage your audience to keep thinking about the middle market, moms like me, who want high-quality at a reasonable price and make sure that as you're creating these products, make sure they're not the kind that are gonna fall apart the first time you wash them. Because I think that's what builds loyalty as well is when moms know they're gonna keep this piece of clothing. It washes well, I can resell it down the road, and then people talk about that brand that has the resale value. I hope that makes sense, but through the years we watch some brands, hey, this is a great brand, because if I take care of it, I'm able to sell it for a really good price. And I think that creates some longevity for some brands.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, absolutely. I think certain brands can be passed on and they just have this, you know, I guess, a longevity.

Rhea Lana Riner

And style maybe too?

Glynis Tao

Or style to people in terms of what the brand means to them. And so, I think there's also that personal connection too, that people have with clothing.

Rhea Lana Riner

I agree I'm so glad you said that, Glynis, because there is a personal connection and we have moms who come into their event and they're getting ready to sell their children's things and they're crying. I mean, because we remember our children when they wore certain clothes and I still have great pride when I think about how hard I worked to buy nice things for my kids. And so, there's a lot of emotional connection with clothing, especially children's clothing, if they're things that our children wore as moms, we have deep emotion. And that creates loyalty to brands.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, I mean, there are certain pieces that I will never give away. I'm going to keep forever because it just has meaning to me and I just want to hold on to those forever. So this is a very interesting space. I think it's different because I was just looking up, you know, like online consignment stores or resellers and there's a lot bigger brands like Depop where it's an online marketplace for resell. That's more for maybe designer clothing, but not so much in the children's wear space. So, I mean, there's perhaps an opportunity there.

Rhea Lana Riner

You know, what's interesting about that is back years ago, I mean, this was honestly probably in the late-90s, I actually had a website and we actually did sell some things online. And I personally didn't love it. We still like selling in-person. And so, we might do online. I know there's a need out there. I do a lot of my shopping online, but it's like you said, it's an interesting thing to be, to be thinking about.

Glynis Tao

And not for everyone, I think. Not for everyone. You've built a multi-million dollar brand while staying grounded in your family and values. What has been the most rewarding part of this journey for you?

Rhea Lana Riner

The most rewarding part is watching my own children. They were what motivated me to get started. I have two daughters and a son. I wanted them to see, and I'm sure you see this with your son, I wanted them to watch their mom work hard. I wanted them to know that you have to work hard in life. Money doesn't just appear on the doorstep. You do have to work hard. And I wanted them to see me solve problems and serve customers and serve families and meet needs in our community. Now my children are adults and just watching how they have this foundation of watching their mom work hard has brought me so much joy. 

And then truly, these franchise owners that I have, they are women who have had zero business experience and now they have become business leaders—not just business women, but business leaders. And they’re building teams and they're affecting their communities, and now several work on my corporate team and they're helping me build a company. And it's just really rewarding to know that you're positively impacting other people's lives and making their lives better. I think this is the most rewarding thing.

I'm honestly grateful that we are still in business and still growing and that we still have a footprint even after 30 years. In many ways, we're sort of just getting started. It takes a while to figure things out. And so, I'm really proud that we're still relevant. Part of our job is to connect with the next generation of new moms out there, and so I love that people are still discovering us and they're like, ‘huh, I've never heard of this.’ And we're like, ‘well, we've been here for 30 years.’ But it's kind of fun that families are just discovering us. I love to watch young families realize how we can help them save so much money and get high-quality things for their families. So it's a lot of fun. It's very rewarding. And I feel very blessed to still be doing this.

Glynis Tao

If you could go back to that first living room clothing swap that you did, what would you tell yourself now about the journey ahead?

Rhea Lana Riner

I would say, first of all, Rhea Lana, you can do a lot more than you think you can. And so be brave, buckle up, and just give it your best shot. There's a wonderful path down there, but you just gotta keep putting one foot in front of the other, and it'll be a remarkable journey.

Glynis Tao

Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Rhea Lana Riner

Well, first you can find us at rhealana.com. It's R-H-E-A-L-A-N-A, rhealana.com slash podcast. We don't have a podcast, but if our audience would like, there's a form there that you can fill out and I'm offering a free, 30-minute consultation just to chat about personal growth. Or if anyone is interested in franchising or just about leadership, it's just a free opportunity we're giving. And then we're also on LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook. I'm Rhea Lana Riner, or you can find us at Rhea Lanas. We're just grateful to be here with your audience. You're doing great things. I love the message that you are giving and your journey is wonderful as well, Glynis.

Glynis Tao

Thank you so much, Rhea Lana, for sharing your incredible journey with us. From living room clothing swap to a national franchise, your story is proof that businesses rooted in purpose, community, and values can truly change lives. For all the fashion e-commerce founders listening, I hope you take away the importance of not just chasing revenue, but creating a brand that empowers others, builds trust, and lasts for the long haul. Thank you so much.

Rhea Lana Riner

Thank you for having me.

Glynis Tao

Thank you so much for tuning in. You can find me on Instagram, @glynistao, and my website, glynistao.com. Please subscribe to Chase Your Dreams podcast if you haven't already. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others who you think this may help. Lastly, it would be great if you left a rating and review for our podcast. See you next time!

Founders Defining the Future of Ecommerce: Live from Ecom North

by Glynis Tao | Oct 14, 2025 | Podcast

What does it really take to thrive in the ever-changing e-commerce world? In this special live edition of the Chase Your Dreams podcast from Ecom North, Glynis Tao interviews several inspiring leaders in the e-commerce space. Hear from e-commerce founders Gillian Liu of Kiyoko Beauty, Hannah Wang of The Aesthetics Studio, Andy Hsu of MotionGrey, and Hellen Harbilas of Hellen’s Boutique, as they share success stories, challenges, and valuable insights on running successful businesses in the rapidly changing digital landscape. Each guest shares their unique experiences and growth strategies, emphasizing the need for adaptability and innovation in the e-commerce industry. Ready to chase your own dream? Tune in and get inspired by real founders shaping the future of ecommerce. 

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About Gillian Liu

Gillian Liu is the co-founder and Chief Marketing Officer at Kiyoko Beauty, a Toronto-based online retailer for authentic Asian beauty products. While working her 9-5 corporate job, Liu started Kiyoko Beauty in 2021. With skincare, haircare, and makeup sourced from Japan and Korea, Liu strives to make Asian beauty accessible to everyone. What initially started as a side hustle has now grown into one of the top Asian beauty brands in North America. Through content creation, Liu has grown a following of nearly 300,000 people on social media and continues to showcase her successful entrepreneurial journey alongside her 9-5 lifestyle.

Website: kiyoko.ca

Instagram: @kiyoko.beauty

About Hannah Wang

Hannah Wang is the founder of The Aesthetics Studio, an Ontario-based sticker and stationery shop with a focus on promoting mental health awareness. At 17 years old, Wang graduated from high school in the middle of the pandemic. During lockdown, she was inspired to embrace her creative side and open an Etsy shop, designing and selling her own stickers, washi tape, and assorted stationery. As an advocate for mental health, Wang’s business has evolved to promote mental wellness through journaling, creative expression, and coloring as a form of self-care and connection.

Website: aestheticsstudioo.com

Instagram: @theaesthetics.studio

About Andy Hsu

Andy Hsu is the co-founder and Chief Executive Officer of MotionGrey, a Vancouver-based ergonomic office furniture company with a mission to make standing desks and chairs more accessible and affordable. With a background in civil engineering, design, and marketing, Hsu combined his passions and decided to pursue his own entrepreneurial journey in 2018. Through authentic storytelling and strategic marketing efforts, Hsu has grown MotionGrey into a successful multi-channel business with products available on Amazon, Walmart, Best Buy, and more. 

Website: motiongrey.com

Instagram: @motiongrey

About Hellen Harbilas

Hellen Harbilas is the founder and creative director of Hellen’s Boutique, a Toronto-based brand specializing in luxury sculptural candles and handmade home decor. Frustrated by overpowering scents and synthetic ingredients in candles, Harbilas set out to create soy candles that were both beautiful and gentle on the senses. Launched in 2021 during the pandemic, Harbilas built Hellen’s Boutique from the ground up, teaching herself everything from product development to web design. Through pop-up markets and content creation, what began as a personal solution evolved into a successful ecommerce business.

Website: hellensboutique.com

Instagram: @hellens.boutique

Takeaways

• Consistent and quality content is crucial to e-commerce growth.
• SEO is a long-term strategy that requires consistent effort.
• Building trust with customers is essential for success.
• Authenticity and storytelling are important for standing out in crowded markets.
• A good product must be paired with a strong brand identity.
• In-person connections can enhance online business growth.
• Continuous learning and adaptation are vital for future proofing your ecommerce business.

Interview Themes

Why is finding a niche important for brands?

Finding a niche allows brands to stand out in crowded markets. By targeting a specific niche with a specific audience who want specific products, brands are more likely to match with the right customers. Gillian Liu focused on breaking the misconception that Asian beauty is only for Asian consumers, striving to make Asian beauty accessible to all. Andy Hsu found a gap in the market for affordable ergonomic office furniture, designing high-quality products that are accessible to a wider audience. Hannah Wang combined mental health advocacy with stationery products, turning creative expression into a purpose-driven niche. Hellen Harbilas identified the niche for decorative and allergen-free candles for people with sensitivities. 

Identifying and building a brand around a specific niche enables better brand positioning and a stronger emotional connection with your target audience. 

What marketing strategies are vital in the stages of a growing ecommerce business?

According to various ecommerce founders, several key strategies were highlighted as vital marketing efforts during the early stages of their businesses. Digital marketing strategies such as SEO, content creation, and email marketing were identified as important tactics to grow a small business. Gilian Liu emphasized the importance of organic social media content, underlining its effectiveness when cultivating a strong relationship between the brand and its customers. Andy Hsu credited his brand’s success to email marketing, citing it as an effective marketing strategy to build long-term relationships with customers, starting from their inbox. In-person marketing was also found to be effective with Hannah Wang and Hellen Harbilas, both claiming that face-to-face conversations and physical interactions with the product helped grow their business and drive sales immensely.

Why is storytelling important when building a brand?

Storytelling gives brands an emotional presence, making the brand more personable and easier to build trust with from a consumer’s perspective. An authentic brand story humanizes the company and invites customers to invest in the brand’s journey, not just the products.

How has AI changed the digital retail landscape today?

AI is reshaping how brands show up online, specifically in search. With AI Overviews and ChatGPT gradually becoming primary sources of information for searchers, discovering new and small businesses has become more challenging. This is where a curated brand narrative comes into play. By establishing a clear brand narrative with problem-solving content, ecommerce businesses can break through the noise and take advantage of algorithmic search instead of letting algorithmic search take over them. Essentially, AI is forcing ecommerce companies to rethink content, visibility, and the customer experience, so learning how to work with AI instead of pushing it away will help your company more than hurt it.

What does the future of ecommerce look like?

AI-Integrated Tools
AI continues to work itself into the ecommerce space, affecting how consumers discover your brands and its products. Luckily, using these AI tools for your brand’s benefit is becoming easier.

Multi-Channel Selling
With new ways to shop being created everyday, a multi-channel sales experience has never been more important. Relying on one channel, such as a Shopify store, limits who can find your product. By diversifying your sales channels, you ensure that your products are easily discoverable on various platforms.

What advice would e-commerce founders give to new entrepreneurs?

Start before you’re ready
You don’t have to know everything about running an ecommerce business before becoming an entrepreneur. As Liu and Harbilas mentioned, every ecommerce founder begins their entrepreneurial journey with uncertainty. What’s important to keep in mind as an entrepreneur is that you need to be ready to learn and adapt. You learn by doing, so start now!

Create authentic content to connect and build trust with your audience
People want to invest in companies that they can trust and it starts with how they perceive your brand. Creating an authentic online presence that your audience can relate to will encourage them to cultivate a strong relationship with your brand.

Stay rooted in your ‘why’
You’ve found your niche, established your mission statement, and turned your personal passion project into an ecommerce brand. With the ever-changing online retail landscape forcing businesses to consistently adapt and re-strategize, it’s important to not lose sight of why you started your business. Carry that why through every business decision you make.

Chapters

00:00 The Future of Ecommerce and the Founders Defining It

01:06 Gillian Liu of Kiyoko Beauty: Content Creation for Asian Beauty

07:11 Hannah Wang of The Aesthetics Studio: Advocating for Mental Health Awareness Through Stationery

14:08 Andy Hsu of MotionGrey: Brand Storytelling for Ergonomic Furniture

21:20 Hellen Harbilas of Hellen’s Boutique: Finding Your Niche with Luxury Candles

Transcripts

Glynis Tao

Hi everyone and welcome to a special live edition of the Chase Your Dreams podcast coming to you from Ecom North. I'm your host, Glynis Tao. Normally on the show, we dive into the journeys of founders, fashion entrepreneurs, and e-commerce leaders. But today, we're on the ground at one of the most exciting events for digital commerce in North America. Over the next few minutes, I'll be speaking with founders who are building brands in real time, facing real challenges and pushing the boundaries of what's possible in e-commerce.

We'll talk about what's working, what's keeping them up at night, and where they see the industry heading, especially in the age of AI, rising ad costs, and shifting consumer behavior. So let's get started and hear directly from the voices shaping the future of e-commerce.

Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.

My first guest is Gillian Liu, who is the co-founder at Kiyoko, a Toronto Bay station beauty e-commerce business. With a focus on organic content marketing, Kiyoko has achieved impressive mid-seven figure revenue while the founders maintained their full-time careers. Gillian leads the brand's marketing strategies, driving the company's success through authentic, engaging content that resonates with audiences. Here, Gillian talks about how a viral video boosted e-commerce growth and how they use content and SEO to drive traffic to their website at the very beginning of their business. 

Please introduce yourself. Can you tell me your name and what you do?

Gillian Liu

I'm Gillian Liu. I'm one of the co-founders of Kiyoko Beauty. We're an online Asian beauty retailer. Think of us like the Sephora for Asian beauty. We sell Korean and Japanese skincare, haircare, and makeup.

Glynis Tao

Amazing. And so this is probably your second year at Econ North. Is that right? Last year was your first year here.

Gillian Liu

Yes, I was just an attendee last year and it was my first time attending a conference like this. And then this year I'm lucky to be back as a speaker.

Glynis Tao

That's amazing. Was that one of the highlights of the conference so far for you?

Gillian Liu

Yeah, I think so. It was really nice to just see how many people connected with my story and my narrative. What my talk was about was just to challenge people’s conceptions about escaping the 9-5 and trying to do the traditional entrepreneurial path, but I think my story is that you can do both. You can do your 9-5 and use it as a tool to scale your side hustle.

Glynis Tao

And can you tell me quickly about your brand and what makes it stand out?

Gillian Liu

Yeah, so Kiyoko is a Japanese girl's name and we decided to make it because our mission is to make Asian beauty for everyone. So I think for a long time, a lot of people thought of Asian beauty as only for Asian people and what we've been trying to do is make information about Asian beauty super accessible. 

Our organic content has almost 300k followers and we make content every single day to make Asian beauty really accessible and understood by everyone and our customers range in ethnicity, age, and different demographics across North America.

Glynis Tao

Can you tell me, how did you get started in e-commerce?

Gillian Liu

It started off as like, “we'll do it for fun.” We started carrying maybe 30 Japanese skincare products and maybe had a couple orders every week and then it just really started taking off. I never thought I would be in ecommerce, but it just happens to be one of those things where you stumble into it and you really enjoy it and so we continued.

Glynis Tao

And in the early days of Kiyoko Beauty, what marketing strategies did you use to grow your business?

Gillian Liu

I think that very early on, we realized that content is an amazing way to market because it is free. You post it once and then you don't have to pay for it ever again. Early on, we found that if you make a viral video, it can change your business trajectory and that's exactly what we've had. We had a viral video in 2021, with 3 million hits on TikTok. And that was really the signal for us to double down on content. 

Glynis Tao

And so, in a crowded e-commerce space, what do you think builds the most trust with customers today? Is it reviews, content, brand story, or something else?

Gillian Liu

I think it’s content because I think when you are known for content, people have established a trust and a relationship with your account and your brand. And so you're not just some other website. People have been watching you for months on their social media and they've come to trust you—that way that you can stand out across. Especially in my space, I'm a commodity. Anyone can start an Asian beauty store, but I think the difference is that people have built up that trust with us.

Glynis Tao

And if you had to place one big bet for the future of e-commerce, whether it's channel, technology, or strategy, what would it be?

Gillian Liu

That’s such a good question. I don't think about e-commerce as a whole. I very much stay in my lane. Like I think about Kiyoko and I don’t think about the industry at large. I think that in the world of AI, you will see a lot more AI-integrated tools. But also, I think when you sell physical goods, you're kind of like AI-proofed in a way because you're not selling software. It can't easily replace toiletries for example. That’s why I think it's a good time to be in a product business.

Glynis Tao

And I think I saw an interview that you did where you had mentioned that you had done some SEO at the very beginning of your business. So how important is SEO to you now considering all the changes happening with AI search and more? Has that taken a hit on your organic traffic?

Gillian Liu

It actually hasn't because I think SEO is like a long game—you build up your SEO over time. At first, it was something that you just have to make sure that your product descriptions are optimized and things like that. I don’t think that we do anything crazy on SEO, but we have been doing a lot more affiliate lately and that also helps with SEO because blogs and other sites are linking back to you. Slowly and steadily our SEO score can increase, but it's not something that I'm thinking about all the time. There’s no golden key that will just unlock SEO. It's a long-term game.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, absolutely. But you did mention that you create content and sounds like you do blogging as well, so I’m sure that helps to bring some of the traffic in as well. 

And so if you weren't running this brand, what would you be doing? What would you be doing today? 

Gillian Liu

I mean, I think that I would be working a 9-5 corporate job. I think that this world has opened up to me because of Kiyoko. Even coming to this conference last year, it's where I met so many people that just opened up this whole world of alternative career paths. I think that if I hadn't started Kiyoko, I wouldn't be in this. Now, if I were to start over today and I was like, I'm going to start a new brand, I don't know. I don't really think about this too often, but maybe something about pets. I feel like people love their pets and more and more people are not having children and choosing to have pets instead. So it's a growing market.

Well then, maybe in the future.

Glynis Tao

Well Gillian, thank you so much for sharing your story and insights on the special live edition of Chase Your Dreams at Econ North. Thank you.

Gillian Liu

Thank you.

Glynis Tao

What is your name and what do you do?

Hannah Wang

My name is Hannah. I run the stationery company called The Aesthetics Studio where I design stickers, stationery products like bookmarks, greeting cards, keychains, pretty much any gift items you can think of with all original designs. I currently sell directly to customers on Etsy and my website as well as to retailers on Fair Wholesale.

Glynis Tao

And is this your first time at Econ North?

Hannah Wang

Yes, this is my first time here.

Glynis Tao

What has been the highlight of the conference so far?

Hannah Wang

I think just connecting with other entrepreneurs, especially in the e-commerce space and also hearing the talks from different brands that have done really well and seeing how they've been able to scale and grow their businesses has been really inspiring.

Glynis Tao

And so can you tell me quickly about your brand and what makes it stand out?

Hannah Wang

Yeah, so my brand has a very strong focus in mental health awareness and promoting mental health coping strategies through the art of journaling, creative expression, and even coloring. We have a coloring book that's been doing really well, both in retail spaces and online. And it's because of how we've designed it. It's different than other coloring books where each item that you color is very small and digestible compared to a huge page that you usually find in coloring books. And so we've had a lot of customers find that more approachable and it's made our book very unique that people will come and buy it. We've had a lot of great feedback about that book. 

So for us, being able to advocate for mental health awareness, letting people know that the benefits of journaling of mental health through the art of journaling has been really great. And we hope to promote that through stickers because we find that using stickers, using cute stationery really gets you wanting to use your journals, planners more, and in turn you definitely see an impact on your mental health.

Glynis Tao

Amazing! So how did you get started in e-commerce?

Hannah Wang

Yeah, so I started when I was 17. I had graduated high school and I was right during lockdown and I was like, I need something to do. So I started an Etsy shop and I was working on my Etsy shop. Everything was going great. But, I honestly don't remember fully what happened, but Etsy had to suspend my shop. I think it's because something I inputted was wrong. My mistake, I put something in wrong, but Etsy had to suspend my shop.

When Etsy suspended my shop, I started looking into it and I realized that while this time they'll probably fix it, there's a chance in the future that Etsy could just shut off your shop for no real reason. I've seen it happen, I've read about it happening to other creators, other artists. And I was like, I can't just have all my eggs in one basket. I need my own platform that I have control over.

So then I started my own website and now I ship directly to customers on my website. But I also still use Etsy just because there are benefits to Etsy too, but I don't want to rely solely on Etsy. So that's why I have my own website. I do all of the shipping, fulfillment, customer service, product listings, chronography, all of that on my own.

Glynis Tao

And you've been doing this for about five years?

Hannah Wang

Yes, five years. 

Glynis Tao

In the early days of your brand, what marketing strategies did you use to grow your business?

Hannah Wang

Primarily Instagram. It's still the biggest platform that I use in terms of social media. I really relied heavily on Instagram and it was great because everybody was online pretty much all the time. So I would say Instagram was definitely the key. Now that we've switched back to more in-person events, I've been slowly doing more markets, more in-person events, doing pop-ups and things just to get that in-person connection as well.

Glynis Tao

And so in a crowded e-commerce space, what do you think builds the most trust with customers today? Is it reviews, content, brand story, or something else?

Hannah Wang

I think all of it plays a role. I think your brand needs to be unique to you, but it also needs to have products that are good on its own. So if anything is out of balance, it doesn't work. You need to have a good brand that's recognizable, but you also need to have products that actually live up to what you say they are. So your stickers need to be good quality. They need to be printed well, they can't be blurry, the cut lines need to be good. There's a lot of things that go into the production that needs to be really well made. And then you also need the brand side to be recognizable, reputable, like working with other companies. Doing content collaborations for example, is a great way to get your brand recognized with other companies as well as other customers. So I would say it's a mix of everything.

Glynis Tao

And if you had to place one big bet for the future of e-commerce, whether it's a channel, technology, or strategy, what would it be?

Hannah Wang

I have seen a lot of people talk about live shopping as one of the things that's growing and emerging. I think that is really cool. What I envision is kind of similar. It’s live shopping in a sense where, it’s not like VR exactly, but you would have products listed out and it's almost like a live auction where people can talk. You can walk through and share with a customer what's going on.

Because I think that a lot of times with online shopping, you don't get that in-person touch—people can't touch the product, they can't feel it. They can only look at the reviews, only look at the photos, but with live shopping, they can say, can you just show me the back of that? You can turn the camera around. Or can you flip through to this page? Or can you tell me how thick it is? Things like that, you can actually talk to your customer and it's almost like you're at a market event, but it makes it more accessible for people who aren't able to make it to market events. Or say they live too far away, but they still get a lot of the benefits that they would get if they were shopping in person. So I think that is really interesting. I'm not exactly sure how that will go, but I have heard of live shopping as one of the things that are emerging right now.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, that's very interesting. And if you weren't running your brand, what would you be doing other than that today?

Hannah Wang

If I wasn't running my brand, I would probably be running a different brand, to be honest. I really also enjoy crocheting and I've been getting more into crocheting. I started crocheting a few years ago and I've been designing patterns and things. So I think if I wasn't doing my brand, I would probably focus on crocheting. Looking at selling crochet patterns, looking at maybe even a crochet e-commerce platform because there are other platforms out there, but they're generally more restricted.

And I'm envisioning something more like Etsy, but like on a wider scale. So there are things I would love to do, I just don't have the ability to do it right now. 

Glynis Tao

Maybe in the future. 

Hannah Wang

Yeah, in the future. 

Glynis Tao

Well Hannah, thank you so much for sharing your story and insight today and thank you for being here.

Hannah Wang

Thank you for having me. It was really nice talking to you.

Glynis Tao

Let’s start off by introducing yourself. What's your name and what do you do? 

Andy Hsu

Sure. I'm the co-founder of MotionGrey. We are an e-commerce business focusing on ergonomic office furniture. So things like standing desk, office chairs, we are specializing in that niche and we've been doing it for eight years now. 

Glynis Tao

Awesome. And so this isn't your first time at Econ, right? 

Andy Hsu

No, actually the second time. 

Glynis Tao

Second time! Awesome. So what's been the highlight of the conference for you so far? 

Andy Hsu

For sure. So I think the first time I've been here, even now, I feel like there's a lot of buzz and energy around the room. I think in many ways, when I come to these events, I get the passion and the drive. It gets re-lit all the time. So I think just being around different entrepreneurs really propels another level of motivation that I can bring back to my own business. So yeah, just being around great people is the highlight, I would say, for Ecom North.

Glynis Tao

And so, tell me quickly about your brand and what makes it stand out. 

Andy Hsu

Yeah. So the evolution of MotionGrey has been eight years. We focus on standing desks and office chairs, but we're really trying to bring the most value to our customers. We focus on innovation and product, but delivering that at an affordable price. So I think when we first got into the market, the options out there were very expensive and we wanted to close that gap because as users, we don't want to pay $1,000, $2,000 or something like that for what is essential. So from there, we really focused on product quality and pricing as well. Things from warehousing, logistics, even marketing, everything is done in and out to provide the best solution and cost effective model for the customer. 

Glynis Tao

Wonderful. So you've been in this business for eight years now. What made you decide to get into e-commerce? 

Andy Hsu

Wow, that's a good question. I actually didn't start off with e-commerce. I started as a website designer for small businesses. I was always very interested in being an entrepreneur, but I didn't know how to go into the market, but I really love the element of marketing. I like the element of designing. And e-commerce kind of combines both of that. It gives you a tangible product and also a way to market that product as well. 

Coming from a civil engineering background, I do really resonate with product design, how to improve on an existing, visible product, and the creative part of myself, which is marketing, is a complete circle of what my passion is. So e-commerce really puts the two together for me. So I really, really love that. 

Glynis Tao

Yeah. And you started off selling gaming chairs, didn't you? 

Andy Hsu

Yes, I did!

Glynis Tao

In the early days? I remember that. Jason was so excited about those chairs. I think he got one for himself. 

Andy Hsu

And we used to do conventions together to sell the chairs to a lot of passionate people. But yeah, like at the time, as a younger 20 year old, people around us were gaming. Esports was a huge, huge thing then and even now. But that's the initial idea of the office furniture brand which is MotionGrey. Gaming chairs were the initial product that we tapped into because it was a little bit bigger, a little bit bulkier, higher gear of entry to enter. So we found a good gap within that market. And then from there, it expanded into what we see as MotionGrey today. 

Glynis Tao

Okay. Do you still sell gaming chairs? 

Andy Hsu

We do, but it's expanded into MotionGrey. 

Glynis Tao

Amazing. In those early days of MotionGrey, what marketing strategies did you use to grow the business?

Andy Hsu

For sure. I think the first one that I really locked in was email marketing. I think even with organic traffic or just people talking about MotionGrey, you really want to capture the customer information as soon as you can because that is where the real gold is, which is the emails, the phone numbers, and also the contact to the customer. So I really emphasize on making sure we were really diligent in our email marketing and email marketing campaigns. And from there, once you understand your funnel, then you can start to expand into paid ads. But the foundation was email marketing. 

Glynis Tao

So, in a crowded e-commerce space, what do you think builds the most trust with customers today? Is it reviews, content, brand story, or something else? 

Andy Hsu

I think you need the essentials. You definitely need to have a really great product because that's what would speak volume and that's what can extend the company to be in this market. But I would say authenticity in this crowded market is quite important. Not so much where ads can just deliver a direct sell, but I think the authenticity of a brand and also founder-like content has really risen in the last couple of years because in a crowded space, like where we're at now, I think being open and authentic from the founder perspective can really push a brand in the next couple of years.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, so storytelling you would say? 

Andy Hsu

Storytelling is huge. 

Glynis Tao

So if you had to place one big bet for the future of e-commerce, whether it's channel technology or strategy, what would it be? 

Andy Hsu

Yeah, I think so with MotionGrey, we really maximize on marketplaces—Amazon, you got your Walmarts or your Best Buy. I think many sellers in the DTC space, they only focus on Shopify, but from the standpoint of visibility or just being able to generate a high top line and to use that cashflow to really build out your DTC business. I think being able to have your products on different marketplaces can actually simultaneously grow your business as a whole. I think implementing that strategy can really push a brand forward really quickly. So that's how we've been able to build an $18 million company. Not because we will rely strictly on Shopify, but we had to mix up Amazon, the Walmarts, the Best Buys, the Staples with our Shopify site. So cohesively, you can grow a company a lot quicker and get more visibility and eyes to your brand. 

Glynis Tao

So having that diversity of distribution channels.

Andy Hsu

Multi-channels, yes.

Glynis Tao

It’s huge.

Andy Hsu

Yes.

Glynis Tao

Okay, and on all these different marketplaces. 

Andy Hsu

I would say so.

Glynis Tao

And so, what would you be doing if you were not running this brand? 

Andy Hsu

I think I might go back to website design. As a kid, I really loved designing shoes. I loved to play basketball. So in high school, I would actually draw basketball shoes. So like that design element, that design passion has always been there. I think a website designer or an element of that would probably be something that I look into. So, I'll be an entrepreneur still. 

Glynis Tao

Still an entrepreneur! 

Andy Hsu

Hopefully.

Glynis Tao

That's in your blood. 

Andy Hsu

I think so, yeah. 

Glynis Tao

Amazing. Well, Andy, thank you so much for sharing your story and insights today and for joining me on a special live edition of Chase the Dream's podcast at Econ North. 

Andy Hsu

All right. See ya! 

Glynis Tao

Tell me, what's your name and what do you do?

Hellen Harbilas

So my name is Hellen and I'm the owner and founder of Hellen's Boutique. I sell luxury sculpture candles, handmade pieces, and decor.

Glynis Tao

Is this your first time at Ecom North? 

Hellen Harbilas

It is, yes.

Glynis Tao

What's been the highlight conference for you so far?

Hellen Harbilas

I think it's been very informative. I was a little scared coming in here and you like you got to spend a little bit of money to come here and some of these conferences don't really have added value, you know? You've seen that in the past, some little things are like false promises, but this has been great! In just the first day, the topic that resonated with me the most was AI storytelling. I feel like we need to be masters of telling our own story and sometimes it's so difficult to get out of your head as a business owner and see, okay, what do our customers want to know about us and how can we clearly define that message in our ads, copyright, our website, everything? 

Glynis Tao

So tell me quickly about your brand. What makes it stand out? 

Hellen Harbilas

Well, my story in general started off with me hating candles. I absolutely did not like candles on the market. It gave me headaches and nausea. You know how you're like opening up a candle in the store and you're like, oh my god, I can't even breathe. That's what inspired me to start Hellen's Boutique. I wanted a candle that not only looked really good, but also smelled really good and that you can actually be like this is such a relaxing fragrance and not a boom in your face. So what makes this different is like our premium soy wax and our premium fragrance oils. Our premium fragrance oils just means that there's less allergens than a typical fragrance oil. They irritate your sinuses less. So, I think that powered with the craftsmanship and our decor part of the business makes us stand out. I call it a little pretty air freshener. That's what I call it.

Glynis Tao

Yeah, well air fresheners can be so bad for you. 

Hellen Harbilas

Absolutely. 

Glynis Tao

Right? Because they're all made of chemicals and toxins. So did you start the business because you identified there was sort of that need in the market?

Hellen Harbilas

Absolutely. Yeah. Everybody was telling me, I don't really like the candles at like, I'm not going to start naming name brands. You know who I'm talking about, but very strong scented candles. There was definitely like a need. There's a lot of people like me and I was literally like my biggest tester. Like if they didn't work with my sinuses and my allergies, I wouldn't produce it.

Glynis Tao

And so how did you get started in ecommerce?

Hellen Harbilas

Learning like everybody else, I actually started my business in the pandemic, so I had to learn everything from scratch. I researched all of the products and I made my website. I just started and did my website by myself. I had learned everything from A to Z on how to even program the site and enter some code. I actually did something where I chose a theme that was no longer available on Shopify and I only found that out like last year. I had a full mental breakdown, by the way. I was like, oh my goodness, I have to change the entire theme. I hadn't updated my website because when you're doing your own coding and your own theme, you absolutely have to update your website every year so you can match Shopify and then you can bring out the most updated tools. I wasn't doing that.

So now I learned my lesson. just choose the default theme and I add what I need. 

Glynis Tao

So a lot of learning in the beginning.

Hellen Harbilas

Absolutely and consistent learning throughout the years. I don't think you're ever done changing your website as a business owner. 

Glynis Tao

Always a work in progress.

Hellen Harbilas

Every day you're like, oh my God. I don't really like this button and I don't really like this section, this doesn't make sense. And you gotta change it over and over again.

Glynis Tao

That's usually how it is, I find. So in those early days building a brand, what marketing strategy did you use to grow your business?

Hellen Harbilas

Man, like it was a tough time, right? Like I was literally in the midst of a pandemic and I think my first strategy was to get my products out there to the people in-person so they can see it, test the market to see if people will buy it and validate that product. 

I spent three months researching and then all of a sudden I was just walking in my neighborhood in Toronto and I saw people popping up there and it was September 2021. And people were doing markets outside of Arta Gallery, actually. Arta Gallery was doing this thing where they would take small businesses and allow them to pop up in front of their store outside. Like a little outdoor flea market. I saw that and I was like, you know what? I have nothing to lose. Let me go ask. And then they accepted me. And then my first ever pop up was October 10th, 2021. That was almost four years ago today. I tested the market and I remember making like $500 on one day, just popping up. 

I think, pop-ups was, at least in my first year of growth, was getting my product in front of customers, getting my website, using the Etsy platform, and getting into the wholesale portion of that, but that was only like the second year of business where we started to grow even further. Then we were able to concentrate a little bit more on the growth part, less on the product and testing part.

Glynis Tao

And so you've been doing it for five years now? 

Hellen Harbilas

Four years, yes.

Glynis Tao

2021. Started during pandemic time. So in a crowded e-commerce space, what do you think builds the most trust with customers today? Is it reviews, brand story, or something else?

Hellen Harbilas

Well, as we are learning with this conference and I know that you've gone to several sessions, I think it's an all-encompassing of all of those three plus a few more things. I feel like as a business owner, you realize that when you're posting content online, sometimes you have to post the funny things and you have to be your own influencer of your business, but that doesn't really generate sales. So you need to find a way to tell your story, but also attract the right audience. And that's what I struggle with the most too—getting my content out to the right people. I've had videos gone viral, but they went viral to other business owners, which is great. But the other business owners are not really my target audience. So it's like, how do you align your content with the things that actually are gonna get your customers to buy it?

And then obviously, the website is important and SEO. Everybody talks about SEO. It's something that I still try to… I think all business owners keep trying to master it every day—trying to try to change things on their website. But I think the most important thing about SEO is you have to be focused on actually, not putting keywords into your site. More like, tell me about your product and be specific and descriptive and focus on the actual problem that you're solving rather than just say like, like this is just a soy candle. Okay, well, if you type in soy candles on Google, guess what comes up? A lot of stuff that's not my stuff. So you have to be very specific and that's also what I'm trying to work on as well. They’re kind of marketed in a way, as you saw, my candles are more like decorative pieces. So kind of like switching the narrative a bit and more of like a decorative sales pitch than an actual candle that you can burn because everybody tells me that my candles are too pretty to burn. And that's not the problem. I want you to burn it, but you don't have to burn it. It's a pretty air freshener.

Glynis Tao

They look like little sculptures, right?

Hellen Harbilas

Yeah. And they still freshen your space.

Glynis Tao

You can display them like pieces of art. You don't have to burn them.

Hellen Harbilas

I actually want them to burn it. It's better for me. I always want more money. Anyways, it's an investment piece. You have to invest in your home and the way that it looks. It will literally last forever. One of my first customers who ever bought from me in October, had bought like October 2021, had bought a candle from me and she says that it still smells now to this day. So four years later. I mean, lasts forever. Literally. 

Glynis Tao

Yeah. Well, that is a good investment. If you had to place one big bet for the future of e-commerce, whether it's a channel, technology or strategy, what would it be? Sort of like, where are we headed?

Hellen Harbilas

Hmm. Where are we headed? A very scary place. That's what I'm thinking of. First off, I just did a session. They went through like the SEO and like the future of SEO and then they said that basically maybe at one point or another, we won't necessarily need Google to pop up. People are going to be using a lot of AI. So you're going to go to ChatGPT and you're going to say, give me the best of the best candles with the most amazing reviews and all of that. And then that's going to be able to search all the websites. If you don't come up, you basically don't exist and that kind of freaked me out because I'm like, man, that's freaky.

Glynis Tao

It is. Like, what’s the point of your website? Yeah, because you put so much work into it and you don't even show up. I think this is a big challenge for a lot of brands right now and there's a lot of confusion I think around what AI search is and how it works and most importantly how do you make your brand come up in AI search. Interesting conversations. I think it's a hot topic which I would like to continue and have more conversations around. 

Hellen Harbilas

Absolutely. 

Glynis Tao

But anyways, let me just ask you if you weren't doing this business now, what would you be doing? 

Hellen Harbilas

Oh my goodness. Well, part of me could tell you that I would be living in Paris, France, going to school to become a fashion designer. That's one of my other dreams as well. So I've always wanted to be a fashion designer ever since I was like seven years old, I started drawing and stuff. And this year I recently got a chance to live there for two months and I did take my sewing classes over there and I absolutely loved it. And I would be like, yeah, absolutely. I would totally come here and live here in a heartbeat and start working on this slowly. That's part of my side projects as well is like working on developing that art person, that fashion person on the other side. So that's what I would be doing. I would be in Paris. 

Glynis Tao

We should just trade lives because I was working in fashion for a little while. That was sort of my past life working in the fashion industry. Now I switched to more tech, I guess. But yeah, that sounds like fun. And so thank you so much. 

Hellen Harbilas

Thank you.

Glynis Tao

For being here and sharing your story and insights with us on the special edition live at Ecom North.

Hellen Harbilas

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Glynis Tao

For our listeners, if you like to learn more about Hellen’s business, we'll have the links in the show notes. And if you want to share your social handles as well to the audience.

Hellen Harbilas

My Instagram is hellens.boutique with two L's for Hellens and then it's just hellensboutique.com or hellensboutique on TikTok. 

Glynis Tao

Awesome! Thank you so much! 

Hellen Harbilas

Thank you for having me!

Glynis Tao

For our listeners, if you'd like to learn more about all the founders interviewed in today's podcast, we'll have the links in the show notes. 

And if you're a founder who's been listening and thinking about how to get more visibility and sales through SEO, especially with all the changes happening in search right now, you can connect directly with me at hello@glynistao.com or you can DM me on Instagram at glynistao.

Thanks again for tuning in. Hopefully you enjoyed these conversations with incredible founders from Ecom North.

Thank you so much for tuning in. You can find me on Instagram at glynistao and my website glynistao.com. Please subscribe to Chase Your Dreams podcast if you haven't already. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others who you think this may help. Lastly, it would be great if you left a rating and review for our podcast. See you next time!