In this episode, Andréanne Mulaire, founder and designer of Anne Mulaire shares her journey of building a sustainable fashion brand rooted in her Métis heritage. She discusses the importance of authenticity and her commitment to ethical manufacturing and community support in the age of fast fashion. Anne emphasizes the significance of storytelling in fashion and how her cultural background influences her designs. She also highlights her initiatives to reduce waste and promote sustainability within the fashion industry, while offering valuable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs.
About Andréanne Mulaire
Anne Mulaire is an award-winning fashion brand founded by Red River Métis designer, Andréanne Mulaire Dandeneau. This woman-led brand blends ethical manufacturing, inclusivity and Indigenous teachings, setting new standards for sustainable fashion in Canada. Rooted in Winnipeg, Manitoba, the brand started 20 years ago in Andreane’s parents' basement. Her collections celebrate Métis heritage through vibrant designs, eco-friendly practices, and empowering Indigenous communities.
Innovative practices have cut the brand's carbon footprint by 30%, reduced 15,000 pounds of textile waste, and lowered emissions equal to 143,200 kilometers of driving. In 2024, Anne Mulaire received the Sustainable Business Award from the Red River Métis Excellence Awards, nomination from the Canadian Arts and Fashion Awards, and Clean 50 Award in 2025. As Canada's first Indigenous-owned B Corp certified apparel manufacturer Anne Mulaire champions integrity, transparency, and sustainability.
Stay rooted in your beliefs to maintain authenticity.
Customers are drawn to brands with compelling stories.
Fashion should reflect personal and cultural identity.
Sustainability is about relationships and responsibility.
Education plays a key role in promoting sustainability.
Design with the end of life in mind for products.
Navigating challenges requires resilience and creativity.
Local community support can contribute greatly to brand success.
Surround yourself with like-minded individuals for guidance.
Interview themes
What does it mean to build a brand rooted in cultural identity and values?
Andréanne Mulaire built her brand with a strong sense of purpose tied to her Métis heritage, a connection that informs everything from her design process to company values. Rather than following mainstream trends, she chose to tell a story through her clothing—one of resilience, craftsmanship, and community. Her parents encouraged her to define what kind of designer and entrepreneur she wanted to be from the start, prompting her to center her business around authenticity, Indigenous teachings, and environmental stewardship.
How does storytelling create emotional connection and customer loyalty?
For Andréanne, storytelling isn’t just part of her marketing—it’s embedded in the product itself. Each collection reflects family history, cultural knowledge, and artistic collaboration, especially with her father, a retired art teacher and painter. His artwork adorns many of the brand’s garments, turning them into pieces of wearable heritage. This intergenerational partnership brings meaning to the clothes and connects with customers on a deeper level. As she says, people aren’t just buying clothing—they’re investing in values, legacy, and identity.
What role does community support play in sustainable fashion entrepreneurship?
Anne Mulaire’s success is inseparable from the support of her Winnipeg community. A pivotal moment early in her journey was being encouraged to return home to launch her business, rather than chase opportunity elsewhere. That local backing—from Métis and Francophone communities to word-of-mouth support—has helped her thrive for two decades. She credits long-time customers and regional connections for helping her grow while staying true to her mission.
How does a brand stay sustainable through both design and operations?
Sustainability for Andréanne goes far beyond choosing eco-friendly fabrics. From the start, she considered the full life cycle of each product—designing garments that could be easily repaired, upcycled, or returned. Her Return to Nature program includes six streams: repair, resale, zero-waste collections, donation partnerships, fiber recycling, and research through a dedicated Fiber Lab team. She even selects construction methods that make future repairs easier, prioritizing longevity over trendiness.
What are the challenges of choosing purpose over profit?
Building a Canadian-made, Métis-owned, and sustainability-driven brand meant turning down cheaper production options and resisting industry pressure to compromise. Early advice to move offshore or “pick just one value” was difficult to hear—but Andréanne stayed rooted in her purpose. This clarity helped her withstand challenges and remain authentic, even when Indigenous storytelling was not widely celebrated. Her experience illustrates that resilience and long-term thinking are essential for founders who want to stay aligned with their values.
How do you scale a mission-driven brand without losing authenticity?
Andréanne recognizes the tension between growth and integrity. Her solution is to selectively scale only certain pieces of the business while maintaining exclusivity and cultural respect in others, such as her Heritage Collection. She believes not everything should be mass produced—and that the handmade, small-batch approach keeps the soul of the brand intact. Even as she plans new ventures like a Banff boutique, she stays grounded in the company’s origins and mission.
How can design decisions support circularity from the start?
Every design decision at Anne Mulaire is made with circularity in mind—from fiber selection to stitch type. For example, she deliberately avoids certain seam finishes because they’re harder to repair. These behind-the-scenes considerations, like making leggings easier to mend, have kept hundreds of garments in circulation. To date, the company has repaired over 800 pairs of leggings that would have otherwise ended up in landfills. Andréanne’s team even quantifies product-level impact by displaying water, energy, and carbon savings on the website—offering full transparency into their sustainability efforts.
What advice does Andréanne have for aspiring fashion entrepreneurs?
Start with your “why” and let it guide every decision, Andréanne says. Don’t wait for perfection—launch small, stay curious, and keep learning. Surround yourself with people who share your values, and don’t be afraid to pivot when needed. Hire slowly and intentionally, and prioritize your own well-being. Andréanne emphasizes that success isn’t about fast growth or big profits—it’s about building a business that creates positive impact and stays true to its purpose over time.
Chapters
00:00 Staying Rooted in Authenticity
02:06 The Birth of a Brand: Inspiration and Heritage
09:54 Filling the Gap: Ethical Fashion in a Fast Fashion World
11:48 Defining Sustainability: Values and Relationships
17:57 Navigating Challenges: Staying True to Values
20:32 Community Support: The Backbone of Success
23:50 Creating Impact: Education and Sustainability Initiatives
30:06 Designing for the Future: End-of-Life Considerations
34:07 Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Growth
35:30 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs: Starting with Your Why
Transcript
Andréanne Mulaire
What's really important is to stay rooted because the reason I'm still in business today is because I stayed rooted in what I really believed and nobody can take that away. It is my story and it makes me who I am and it makes me also different than other companies. So I think that's very important because even today it's about, well, why are you special? Like how can you make yourself special? Because customers want, they don't want the same thing. They want authenticity, they want the, you know, the real of a company and their story. They're attracted to storytelling to different companies and their different stories. Yeah, it made me who I am differently from other competitors and something that could not be replicated.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Anne Mulaire is an award-winning fashion brand founded by Red River Métis designer, Andreane Mulaire Dandeneau. This woman-led brand blends ethical manufacturing, inclusivity and Indigenous teachings, setting new standards for sustainable fashion in Canada. Rooted in Winnipeg, Manitoba, the brand started 20 years ago in Andreane’s parents' basement. Her collections celebrate Métis heritage through vibrant designs, eco-friendly practices, and empowering Indigenous communities.
Innovative practices have cut the brand's carbon footprint by 30%, reduced 15,000 pounds of textile waste, and lowered emissions equal to 143,200 kilometers of driving. In 2024, Anne Mulaire received the Sustainable Business Award from the Red River Métis Excellence Awards, nomination from the Canadian Arts and Fashion Awards, and Clean 50 Award in 2025.
As Canada's first Indigenous-owned B Corp certified apparel manufacturer Anne Mulaire champions integrity, transparency, and sustainability.
Welcome Anne, it's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Andréanne Mulaire
You're so welcome. Thank you for the invite.
Glynis Tao
My pleasure. You have such an incredible and inspiring story, having established a name in the Canadian fashion industry. I felt I needed to talk to you and have you share your story with our listeners.
Andréanne Mulaire
That's awesome. I love to share it. I don't always have the opportunity, so I really appreciate the time that you're taking aside for me.
Glynis Tao
Great. So let's start at the beginning. What inspired you to launch Angoulas? Was there a specific moment or experience that sparked the idea?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, well, I always loved creating with my hands. So the real spark came from wanting to see fashion that reflected who I was, my Métis roots, my respect for the earth, my belief that clothes should be made with care and intention. From a long time ago, I was always very mindful about the planet. And that's how the values that my parents instilled in me.
So when I was in school in Montreal, when I was doing my fashion school, I was always using natural fibers. The moment that my aha moment, when we talk about those moments, it's when I was doing my last year exam and we had to create a couture dress. And I really wanted to do something in the natural fibers. So I decided to do a dress in hemp. And I was adamant to create a dress that was red carpet.
Because the feedback I had received from when I mentioned that to my teachers, they said, well, don't be surprised if it does not end up on the runway. And if you had your dress on the runway, you had extra points. So it's, it's almost like you, you had to have it on the runway. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to prove them wrong because obviously they don't know the capacity of what natural can look like. So I really worked hard on hemp silk, hemp jacquard, hemp lace.
I looked everywhere and I had sourced some fabric in the US and I had paid everything with my own cents and dollars and I made this beautiful dress all in hemp and they were so surprised and they could not believe that it was a natural fiber and I felt like, am I educating you about this today?
So that's where I really felt I had a space in the fashion industry. The fact that first of all, people didn't believe in me or in the fact that I could create something for the runway in eco fabrics and also the education about fashion, runway fashion shouldn't be disposable. It should be something that you're taking from the earth and you got to give it back to the earth somehow. So what's that cycle and that, you know, that mini education.
So all this to say that was the big spark, but also if I fast forward a little bit, so I started my company in my parents' basement and what I also noticed was, I remember a moment where my dad was, we were collaborating together and I had showed up in the morning and he was still in his house coat, no coffee in hand and painting on our dresses that we had collaborated. And I had really thought through at that moment, I'm like, you know what, we are creating something special. This is not just clothing we're doing, but we're really creating something meaningful together. And that was the path. That's like the big decisions on everything that I put behind the company and the mindfulness about that decisions that I put into the company comes from those moments.
Glynis Tao
Your Métis heritage and family history play such an important role in your brand's story. Can you tell us more about your cultural background and how it shaped the brand's identity?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, so my Métis heritage, it's at the heart of everything we do. Growing up, I was surrounded with stories, beadwork, florals, traditions that holds really big history and resilience. And so I was really honored that I was able to create clothing that tells a story. That's huge for me.
The one question my parents asked me before starting my company, they said, what kind of designer do you want to be? What kind of business owner do you want to be? Because at that point, I thought I was just going to be an artist and create clothing. But they said, no, you're going to become an entrepreneur by doing what you love to do. So what kind of entrepreneur, what kind of designer, what story are you going to tell? That really made me think about who I am and where I came from, you know, the rest is. So I was very proud to use my story and to tell a story through craftsmanship and every way that I could through my clothing. And I find it, you can see, you look at the clothing and I personally, see roots, you see the rooted, you know, the value rooted in them. And I'm hoping to pass that down to generations with respect, sustainability and community.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. I could really see that heritage woven into your designs. Just like such beautiful, you know, wearable art, I guess, if you could call it that. And where do you get the art, you know, the designs that you put on your clothing from?
Andréanne Mulaire
So that's with my dad. So this is where I think it's so special because we've been collaborating for 20 years. And I do find it's the one of the most special things. He was an art teacher before. So to see him going back to his first love of art, I remember when he was a kid, he would be, all his brothers, sisters would be on the farm, working on the farm. And his dad had asked, my grandpa had asked him to be in the kitchen and to paint the house, the homestead.
And so he was loving, know, he's like, I didn't have to be on the farm, but I was painting the homestead and his dad's like, you are an artist. And I could just feel him, you know, when he was a kid and just that feeling like that proudness.
And so when I started my company, he was also retiring. So we started just the fact that I said, I want to keep my story alive and just share the indigenous people history of Canada. Cause I find fashion and history go hand in hand. It's very important. So that's what he started doing paintings and we would say, on this dress, it would be amazing to have, what's a healing plant that we use and Northern Willow and let's tell the story of that, okay. And then for leggings, how about what can we draw? And we would do these beautiful collaborations. And to today, all the art is made by him. And sometimes we do other collaborations with other artists, which is really nice. That's super special too. So that's definitely a family affair.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it definitely is. That's really nice.
Andréanne Mulaire
I was thinking about that today too because I do find it special also because it's his legacy continuing, his education, his storytelling, his stories. And I find every time we talk about something like a new launch or a new design, there's so much depth and wisdom that I gather from that. And that print, they never go away. They're so classic. They're so timeless that it gives so much hope and just also you know strength and just so much love to other people buying it. They feel it. I find that's it's so beautiful, that's authenticity of craftsmanship, but you know of good quality. Products, you know, you know something that has good values.
Glynis Tao
And so when you started the brand early days, what gap did you see in the fashion industry that you felt compelled to fill?
Andréanne Mulaire
Well, this is no surprise, but we know fast fashion is everywhere and it's disconnected from the land. Like we know that from the maker, from the story. So I wanted to, I wanted to slow it down. I knew it was going to be a huge undertaking because a small fish in the big pond, you think about that. But I saw we needed more ethical, inclusive and cultural-conscious fashion made clothing that's made here in Canada. That was the biggest thing. Not just clothing that looks good, but do good. And that customers, when you think about it, they invest a lot of their hard money. It's like everybody that makes money, they work hard for their money. And they invest, when they buy things, you invest in the companies. That's the way I think of purchasing, consummation. I think of that every time I put in my dollars in something, you know, do I support their value? I, my investment, where is that going to go?
So I want to bring that back and just to put, you know, make, make sure that there could be a company, fashion company that would respond to a lot of what the fast fashion can't and to show it's possible in Canada.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and that's really what I love about you and your brand and having that longevity to be in business for as long as you have, showing that you can be sustainable and be purpose driven, lead with your values and not just, you know, that there's only fast fashion as the option out there, right?
Yeah. so sustainability is at the core of your brands. How did you define find what sustainability would look like for Anne Mulaire from the start.
Andréanne Mulaire
Okay, so it's not easy. It's not always easy. But for me, it came down to relationships and responsibility. So I stay grounded by listening to my community, that's number one, and collaborating with other Indigenous artists or elders and always checking in with myself. I think that's super important. What aligns, what doesn't align with my values, you know, making decisions. I've had to do a lot of tough decisions throughout my 20 years in business.
And it's not always like they say, it's not the easy decision is the right decision. And so that has always been very important for me to always make sure I do my due diligence. And at the end of the day, do I still want to wake up in the morning and face myself and say, I made the right decision because that's what I believe in. But yeah, it's always about, you know, growth is important, so we always have to do it, but integrity is non-negotiable for a lot of what I do.
Glynis Tao
I love that. And you say a lot of that on your website as well, that you list a lot of those values to your brand. So I guess just to take it one step further in terms of your designs are beautifully blend together, indigenous culture, equal consciousness and modern fashion.
How do you stay true to your values while ensuring cultural authenticity and respect as the business growth?
Andréanne Mulaire
Well, there's one thing that, so we have a really nice collection in our brand. It's called the Heritage Collection. And those are pieces that we make small amounts of because I believe that scaling, like something special can't be scaled. So when you think about scaling, see big, as soon as a company scales, they lose their authenticity. They lose their integrity. But for us, it's always been important that, you know, we need growth. We want to grow, but what pieces are growing and which pieces are staying authentic. And, you know, absolutely it's always, it's hard with the capital and things like that. But I think at the end, it's just, you know, working from my parents' basement and doing everything myself, I was able to really analyze and just understand every step of a company. And even today, you know, I learned, now I find I'm in the part where I learned a lot of the business side. And that's where you have to be careful because you will be told so many different directions to go. You know, but you have to be rooted so strong in the beginning where you, you know, where are proud to be for those decisions, not to weigh you on one side or the other kind of thing. I don't know if I'm making kind of sense.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it does. Just to ask you another question, do you have any mentors or teachers that have helped you along this way, along your journey?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, I think it's always important to try to surround yourself with the right people that carries the same values. So of course, I've had my family, I have an older brother that also is an entrepreneur, and he's been very supportive and being honest with his mistakes for me not to make the same mistakes. And I really appreciate that. You know, that's vulnerable to appreciate that. And, and just to have other business owners that I really value what they do and just having their feedback on things. I think that's important. You can't do it alone. And there's so much that you don't know. And so I always say, you know, educate, educate, educate.
Glynis Tao
But let's talk about the behind the scenes. What were some of the biggest challenges you faced in the early stages of the brand?
Andréanne Mulaire
Well, definitely the time I was told that offshore production should be the thing I should head to because I should cut my costs and then go offshore. The fact that I had the triple threat, is Métis-owned, Métis-designed, Made in Canada and sustainability, I should just only pick one. So those are all things that definitely was very hard to swallow and just to acknowledge because yes, those were the things that I was really believing in and are very hard to grow a company where profits are not huge. Right?
When you make in Canada, you don't get the same profit as when you do overseas. When you have a, you know, an indigenous story where at the beginning in 2005, not a lot of people were very positive about the fact that I was, you know, telling my Indigenous story, and so it was not super popular. But you navigate through those times and again makes what's really important is to stay rooted because the reason I'm still in business today is because I stayed rooted in what I really believed and nobody can take that away.
It is my authentic, story, and it makes me who I am. And it makes me also different than other companies. So I think that's very important because even today it's about, well, why are you special? Like, how can you make yourself special? Because customers want, they don't want the same thing. They want the authenticity. They want the, you know, the real of a company and their story. They're attracted to storytelling to different companies and their different stories. So yeah, it made me who I am differently from other competitors and something that could not be replicated by just copying, you know.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so it sounds like you have really stayed true to yourself as a designer, as a brand, being B-Court certified too is an amazing achievement, right? Because I know that's not easy the whole process to be certified. Like have you ever faced any pressures to compromise your values in order to grow and how did you navigate that?
Andréanne Mulaire
Well, again, definitely the pressure with the fast fashion, you know, the consummation. So a great example is when Black Friday comes along. It's like, how do you compete with all the brands doing so many amazing deals? And at the end, it's you have to, and this is where, you know, my mentors have always told me, stay true to who you are. Don't give in just because you feel like you have to, because then you'll just be a part of what they're doing.
You're not gonna be on your, you know, you're not gonna be your unique self. So, you know, it's about being creative and when you are a minority in so many aspects, you start to be very creative and think outside the box and find unique ways to look different. So that's what I think we've been, not I think, I believe that we've been like so good at doing that because from the beginning, it's almost, called resilience. It's like going through so many obstacles and trying to say, how do I get out of it? And then you find another way to pivot and find another way to pivot.
It's almost to the point where we are experts in pivoting because we've gone through so many obstacles, you know? And so it's always, I'm sure we're going to go through more obstacles, but it's always going to be okay. What is the right way versus what's the right thing to do in this moment? And how do we stay also true to our values and to what the brand means to a lot of people and to us. so, but to go back to the B Corp, that was huge for us because it like it validated everything that we've been working towards, social responsibility, environmental standards, ethical practices.
But you know, to be honest, like the honest, to be honest, one of the biggest moment that I have more personal, but it's been more personal for me. It was seeing customers wear our clothing to like family gatherings and to share what it means to them to connect with their culture. Like I think sometimes having these stamps or, you know, awards, those are great because it's almost a social proof. But at the end of the day, it's really seeing the amount of customers you build and the community you build wearing what you're making.
For anybody that's an artist, seeing your product sold in a house or seeing somebody wearing your jewelry is the most proud moment that you can imagine. And I think that's what the effect is on a small company versus a huge brand because you don't have that person that gets affected right away.
Glynis Tao
Love that. And I think that leads right into my next question, which is how important has your local community been in supporting the brand from Winnipeg to the broader Canadian fashion scene?
Andréanne Mulaire
So important, you know, it makes or breaks your brand, your business, if you don't have support from your community. Word of mouth. I always say word of mouth is the best marketing tactic because they believe people take who their loved ones seriously versus if we could put so much money in marketing, but it wouldn't have the same effect as the word of mouth or having a friend saying to a friend and also the support of the French community, the Métis community. It makes a huge difference. I'll tell you a story.
So after school, I graduated in Montreal for fashion. Then I decided to go to Toronto because I thought, I'm going to get a job in Toronto. That's where it should be. But then I had a meeting with Michael Silver from Silver Jeans in Winnipeg and he said, come back to Winnipeg. Your community will support you. You'll be able to open your store or your boutique or whatever you want to. You need that support. And he was not wrong. Like it's exactly what I did. I packed up myself. I came back to Winnipeg and I started my company and I've had the, you know, immense support from everybody since then. And I couldn't have done it alone. So I always say my successes is the people that support me, my community, my customers that's been with me for 20 years. I've had customers with me for 20 years, you know? It's amazing.
Glynis Tao
That is amazing and I'm actually quite impressed of how many there are quite a few apparel companies in Winnipeg right. It's like you mentioned silver jeans. Is Canada Goose based there?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, have their, that's where the old silver jeans where they used to manufacture. Now they have some of the, that manufacture.
Glynis Tao
They do, right?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah. And they have their factory there amongst others.
Glynis Tao
So that's great. It's really great to hear that you're able to build a clothing brand and a successful clothing brand out of your hometown. Yeah. I mean, that must feel great to be able to do what you love in the city that you grew up in.
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, as much as know entrepreneurship is it's it's not easy but that's the beauty of you know believing in your product and the fact that I get to wake up every day and I know I'm making a difference because I have you know how many people I've employed in Winnipeg and the fact that they love working here they feel like a family I love that feeling coming in and hearing them laugh it's one of the best sounds and you know the fact that I'm able to share a lot of my knowledge and also my values to a lot of customers that wanted to transition in sustainability but didn't know how or what.
And I find our education has really helped them even with our Return to Nature programs, the fact that they can bring it back, get repaired and all that. I hear more and more, this is my first piece and I'm so excited to keep on just growing slowly and those are just music to my ears when I hear that creating impact. And that's another thing that when I started the company, I had made myself, I knew I wanted to create a change. That was the number one. I wanted to reduce it with the waste in the industry, in the fashion industry. I had done some courses at the University of Manitoba in human ecology. So I had done a lot of case studies about the child labor, the behind the scene before actually I did my fashion industry at fashion school.
So I knew that behind the scene more and the waste and the fabrics. so I already knew that we were using it. It was going beyond. And so when I started a company, it was really to reduce the waste, but also to create fashion in a way more ethically and sustainable way. But to see customers seeing our company and then wanting to follow and transition into that slow fashion, that sustainable movement, that's our impact. And I said, yeah, maybe I don't make a lot of money in my pocket.
I'm not a big profit person. But that's not my goal. My goal is to be a CEO that creates impact versus a CEO that creates profit.
Glynis Tao
Can you speak a little bit about your initiatives on like how you divert textile waste, you are reducing carbon emissions?
Andréanne Mulaire
I can go for days because I love talking about that. But so in 2021, we did a really full audit of our whole supply chain. And it's really cool because you can go on our site and when you're looking at different products, you can see how much carbon emission you're saving from that product, water, energy saving. So it gives you real time of the positive impact of that product. So that's one thing. But we also launched a whole return to nature program, which it's like a, it's the holistic approach to reducing waste in our own company. Cause again, on a side note, I always say every company is, should be, should be responsible for their own waste. So whatever waste you create, if it's energy, if it's tangible or whatever, you should be responsible for your own waste. So for us, it was important to look at a holistic approach and see how customers can participate as well.
So our Return to Nature program is based on six programs. Number one, it's repair, where you can bring back any clothing that you have and we will repair it. We also have a 90-day guarantee, so we repair for free. And then second is a resale program, where, okay, you've worn your piece, so you have older piece, you bring it back, and then it's a take-back program, basically.
And then we have our revive and slash zero waste collection program where we will upcycle and reuse waste from our post production. So the season before production remnants, when we've done our big cuts, we have like bags. So we'll do a collection twice a year. It's called the zero waste collection and we reuse those. And that's a fun, creative, one of a kind collection. And then we have three more but that's more on the back end of because doing these programs in order to have it fully circular, there's some research and development that needs to be done. we have the fourth is the down cycle. So that's where we have remnants, but we can't do anything with that. But we do donate to any community engagement or community areas.
We just had a company come in, a nonprofit, and they were filling out punching bags and they came in and grabbed four bags and they're filling those up and then these are for community activities this summer. And so amazing, cool project that we get to hear about. And then we also have our down cycle, is where we have the down cycle and the recycle and we have fiber lab. So fiber lab is our team that does all the research and development for new fibers. That's where we did a collaboration with University of Manitoba.
And we looked at the bi-gradable ability of our fabrics and how do we move to the next phase to finding bi-gradable fabrics. So they're doing the research and development of all that. And our bio cycle and recycling program is where we did, we launched that last fall and we're going to continue this fall where we use 10,000 pounds of our waste and we recycled it in these socks. We did socks for the first time because it's universal.
But that was the one, our goal is to create clothing so we don't have, I mean, fabric. So we don't want to be buying virgin fabric all the time. But ideally would be to recycle your own waste into fabric so then you can just keep recycling. So it becomes a full loop all the time. And at the end of the day, you know, you can't do that forever.
But if you can relieve, if you can keep things in the loop a bit longer, and this is great for any customers, think hearing this, you keep your shirt, you wear your shirt longer, maybe two or three months longer, it takes away so many carbon emission and also water from the landfill. And it just, that's the key of keeping things off the landfill and to be sustainable. It's to wear things longer. And so keeping into the loop, that's the key of sustainability.
Glynis Tao
Do you actually consider all that at the very beginning of the design process then? You're probably considering the end of life?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yes. Yeah, that's a great question because a lot of people, don't know, but when we design our collection, we always design with the end life first, and then we move forward and, you know, we move to the design. A lot of the times, you know, people are looking at a fabric and they're like, that's pretty. Okay, I'm going to design and then they go to the end life. But then that fabric might not be composable or it could be 100% plastic, which will take 200 plus years to decompose. It could have synthetics or it could have zippers or buttons, which is totally fine. for us, either way I design is I always think, okay, well, if anybody had to repair this, how would I repair this? Okay, I need to make sure that it's repairable because that goes into my loop.
I need to make sure that the fabric is as natural as possible because at the end life, it will go to this space, this place here. And so those are the questions that I asked myself. Then a very good example is we do a lot of leggings. So the leggings are one of our best sellers. And I was contemplating on getting a flat stitch, which is the stitch that kind of goes like this. And it's a flat stitch that you see a lot of on big brands' leggings.
The only thing with these stitches is that you can't repair it. It's a very hard way to repair it when it breaks. So this is a decision that I had to make, okay, well, I can't have what everybody else has, but I'll go with my serger because I know I can repair it. And you should have repaired over 800 leggings over the years. And that's like leggings that would have been tossed in the landfill and just discarded. These are leggings that are still in the loop. And so that for me, those are decisions that I make that a lot of customers or people don't even know. It's like, yeah, I guess so.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, totally get what you're saying. It's the flat lock machine. Yeah. So I guess you would do the surge and cover stitch. Yeah. So that's right? That would make it easier to put them at the repairing stage. Do you do all your production and how?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yes, we do. I have just across my door right here, I have the whole manufacturer. So when you come to the shop, you get to see, you know, everything being made. It's almost like the kitchen behind, how do you call that? The open kitchen, open manufacturer. So yeah, I'll take a little video after and send it to you so you can have it.
Glynis Tao
Yes, please. I would love to be able to share that too with our listeners so they get a little bit more behind the scenes look, you know, your manufacturing process, because that's not really a lot, people don't get to see that.
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, exactly.
They usually see the end, the product at the end and don't see all the things that happen in between. We know when we're at the restaurant and we see the chef cooking, it's so special. It's like, how is he doing that? how's, well, that's cool. You know? And I started doing little reels with my sewers and asking them what's the hardest part of different products. And it's so cool because I get to hear this too. like, oh, I didn't know that was the hardest part of a blazer. What's the hardest parts of this dress? And then they tell me, you know, it's kind of cool now.
Glynis Tao
So what's next for Anne Mulaire? Are there any upcoming projects, collections or partnerships that you're excited about?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, well, we're going to continue to grow, expand the circular program, the take back and the repair, and then also try to do more recycled textile to textile recycling. But we're also working on opening a boutique in Banff, which is a dream. I'm still working hard on that, but that's going to be something that we can really bring made to Canada, indigenous owned in Banff. So I think customers will, and for all international, that's the way I see international people coming through, you know, to see the thing real, what's real about Canada. I think that would be really nice. Yeah. And then just to continue to do some really nice collaboration with Métis artisans and, but those are the big things.
Glynis Tao
And you are mostly D to C right now, you sell off your website. Do you do wholesale and do you stock anywhere?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, we don't do wholesale, used to in 2008, I had a lot of stores and I had to pivot because of the market crashed. And so that was one of my pivots. And then we went just direct to consumer, which again was easier for us because we didn't have to use as much fabric. I could create smaller runs and answer demands on, you know, when they came versus when I was doing wholesale, it was just a lot right off the bat. If they didn't pay on time. Like it was just a lot of management, but we're looking at maybe opening again, the wholesale department next year and just having selective things. I think it's important to try to get Canadian made t-shirts. I find like, again, I know where they, your t-shirts, have to be a certain price point, but there's something being said about Canadian t-shirts being well-made. I think we've had the experience of wearing crappy t-shirts enough, but good quality t-shirts, we're going to start to want to embrace that and to want to invest in those. Just other pieces that we can offer, that would be good.
Glynis Tao
If you could give advice to a young entrepreneur or fashion designer, what would it be?
Andréanne Mulaire
Thinking about everything I went through, I would say starting with your why. So know what you stand for before you launch anything. I believe it's going to guide you with every decision that you have to make, but also don't wait till everything's perfect to launch. You know, just start something and then learn as you go, but always surround yourself with people that share the same values and the same visions. And yeah, I believe that's how you build something that lasts.
Glynis Tao
And just, I guess, reflecting back over the last 20 years, you know, building the brand, how has it changed you as a person?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah. Well, I'm definitely more patient now, but it has opened my eyes to seeing what's happening more outside. You know, in the beginning, you're very inward and you're very focused, but I was able to just open my eyes and seeing more of what is happening around me and letting fate kind of just do its thing.
Glynis Tao
Are you able to sort of step back a little bit more and be able to sort of look at things kind of on a broader view, know, macro level than a very micro level? Because I think when, you know, starting out as a new designer, you got your hands in like everything, right? And having to do everything.
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, no, you're right. If I think about, you know, physically, physically in terms of my workload, I think another very important thing is, is finding the right people for the right jobs. The resource, a lot of companies will say resource or HR is always, it's a lot of work, but it's very important and take your time. Sometimes it's okay to take your time for that, but having the right team allows me to step back and just to work more on the company versus in the company.
And that's something I've learned too over the years of you're working so much in the company. If you do that too much, then you start not to see what is happening because you're so focused on one thing. And also just the importance for any entrepreneur is to really take at least, you know, if possible. I try to do that is, is, you know, a me day or a weekend every season, because there's a reason why there's seasons, things change.
And it's also your, a person also change and in order to refresh to, you know, to be the best self for the company. Cause you're there. If you're not your best self, then everybody else is suffering around you. So it's important to be your best self around your company, about your, your employees and to take time for yourself. Cause that's the number one thing is you become a workaholic. It's so easy. Right. So, and balance is, very hard. A lot of people will say, I try to balance it. I've been working on balance for 20 years, but you know, being able to put a few things like hiring the right people and if sometimes it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But you keep your goal is always to hire the right people. And when you have strong core values and you hire and you fire with those in mind, you'll get the right people.
Glynis Tao
That's great advice. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Well, they can find me on the website and they can send an email there or through our Instagram. We have Facebook, we have LinkedIn, we have a YouTube channel too. yeah, if they just search Anne Mulaire or I guess we could put that in the caption.
Glynis Tao
Yes. We will put all your contact info.
They can come and check out the boutique in Winnipeg. It's a really nice experience. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. I didn't maybe forgot to say we have the boutique connected to Anne Mulaire we'll I'll take a video for you too. So you can show it to them. It's connected to the manufacturing facility.
Glynis Tao
So you have like a design studio and a factory and then a store. Please send us a video of that or if that is a bit is it on your website?
Andréanne Mulaire
Yeah, you have this location that says the boutique, a little picture of the boutique, but I'll send you a video of the manufacturer and then going through the boutique and
Glynis Tao
Okay, yes. And I will add that to the Reels highlight when I post it, because I'm sure people would want to love to see it. I would love to see it. Next best thing to flying to Winnipeg, right? Thank you. You are so lucky.
Glynis Tao
Thank you for sharing your story with us. It's been so inspiring to hear how you've built a brand rooted in heritage, sustainability and purpose.
Andréanne Mulaire
You are so welcome. Thank you so much for the time, like the space that you let me blab.
Glynis Tao
My pleasure. And for anyone listening, you can learn more about Anne Mulaire and explore the collections at annemulaire.ca, your website. And thank you again for joining us today.
In this episode, we are joined by Shannon, owner of Simply Merino—a sustainable clothing brand based in Vancouver and specializing in Australian Merino wool. She shares her journey from teacher to fashion entrepreneur, and discusses how her values around sustainability, transparency, and community support have shaped the brand. The conversation explores the early challenges of running a business, the benefits of using natural fibers, and how customer feedback plays a central role in product development. Shannon also reflects on her recent trip to Australia to visit wool suppliers and offers a look at what’s next for Simply Merino, including upcoming product launches and textile recycling initiatives.
About Shannon
Shannon is the owner of Simply Merino, a Canadian clothing brand based in Vancouver that creates ultra-soft, sustainable everyday essentials for the whole family. Made exclusively from Australian Merino wool, Simply Merino offers cozy sweats, elevated basics, swimwear, and sleepwear designed with a minimalist aesthetic and a commitment to conscious living. With all production done locally in Canada, Shannon is closely involved in every stage of the process—from design to manufacturing—ensuring both quality and transparency.
Driven by a deep commitment to sustainability, Shannon has grown Simply Merino into a purpose-led brand that goes beyond fabric choices. Under her leadership, the company has diverted over 15,000 pounds of textile waste from landfills through its recycling initiatives. Her values as a mother, environmentalist, and small business owner continue to shape the brand’s mission. Whether it's educating customers on the benefits of natural fibers or building long-term supplier relationships, Shannon is redefining what it means to build a thoughtful, values-led sustainable fashion business from the ground up.
Lead with your values to attract the right customers to your brand.
Be transparent to build trust and connect more deeply with your audience.
Involve your customers, but stay true to your design principles and brand identity.
Be prepared to learn through trial and error if you’re starting without industry experience.
Focus on niche communities that naturally align with your brand’s values.
Local production supports quality, ethics, and long-term operational flexibility.
Stay mission-driven, especially during the early challenges of running a small brand.
Interview themes
What does it mean to build a values-led fashion brand?
Simply Merino’s growth has been rooted in a deep commitment to values rather than profits. When Shannon took over the business, she was driven by her passion for sustainability, natural living, and creating something meaningful—not the idea of building a fashion empire.
Her background as an environmentalist and holistic health practitioner naturally informed the direction of the brand, which prioritizes natural fibers, ethical manufacturing, and thoughtful design. This purpose-led approach has shaped everything from her material choices to how she communicates with customers.
How can transparency strengthen brand loyalty?
In the early stages of running Simply Merino, Shannon hesitated to show the reality behind the brand because she felt small compared to polished competitors. Over time, she realized that being open about the production process, working from home, and the brand’s modest beginnings actually created deeper trust.
Today, she actively shares how garments are made, who makes them, and why certain decisions are made. A major turning point in this journey was visiting her Merino wool supplier in Australia and sharing that story with customers. These behind-the-scenes moments help reinforce customer loyalty and show that the brand is committed to full transparency.
How do customer relationships influence product development?
Shannon’s design process is closely tied to feedback from her community. While she remains the final decision-maker on what gets produced, many product ideas originate from customer suggestions. For example, her expansion into women’s wear and eventually men’s designs was a direct response to customer interest. However, she only moves forward with designs that reflect her own sense of style and comfort, ensuring that each piece aligns with the brand’s identity. This balance of listening and leading helps ensure the line remains both relevant and authentic.
What are the challenges of growing a sustainable fashion business from scratch?
Taking over an existing brand presented challenges Shannon hadn’t anticipated. While there was an initial customer base, she had no fashion or business background and had to learn everything through trial and error. Early production issues with manufacturers led to faulty products and difficult customer situations, compounded by the stress of juggling a young family and limited financial resources. The early years were marked by exhaustion and self-doubt, but those experiences laid the groundwork for later resilience and clarity around her business values.
How can niche communities drive organic brand growth?
Without a traditional marketing strategy, Simply Merino’s growth has largely come from word-of-mouth and community support. Shannon discovered that homesteading groups, outdoor education networks, and families interested in natural living were particularly drawn to her products.
These niche audiences helped spread awareness about the brand, and their interest shaped how Shannon continued to position and market her garments. This grassroots growth strategy proved more effective than paid advertising, aligning naturally with her values-led approach.
Why is local manufacturing a strength, not a limitation?
Keeping production in Vancouver has been a cornerstone of Simply Merino’s operations. By building long-term relationships with local manufacturers, Shannon has been able to maintain quality control and streamline communication. If issues arise, they can be resolved quickly and in person.
Beyond logistics, she sees local production as a way to support the skilled labor force in her city and ensure ethical working conditions. Recent shifts in consumer awareness—especially during the COVID-19 pandemic and after tariff changes—have only increased interest in Canadian-made products.
How does sustainability go beyond fabric choice?
The brand’s sustainability efforts extend far beyond its use of Merino wool. One of Simply Merino’s most significant projects has been collecting and recycling fabric scraps from production—over 15,000 pounds so far. These scraps have been sent to North Carolina for processing into new yarn, which Shannon plans to turn into products like socks, hats, and blankets. This focus on circularity demonstrates how the brand is committed to reducing waste and continuously improving its environmental impact.
What advice does Shannon have for women starting sustainable fashion brands?
Shannon encourages aspiring founders to be honest about their motivations and prepared for hard work. For her, success came from being transparent, staying aligned with her values, and building genuine relationships with customers. She cautions that the road is slow and often financially difficult in the early years, but that staying mission-driven can lead to long-term fulfillment. Her journey reflects the importance of storytelling, adaptability, and owning your identity as a founder, even when the business is small.
Chapters
00:00 The Journey to Sustainable Fashion
02:58 Building a Values-Driven Brand
06:09 The Role of Natural Fibers in Fashion
09:06 Transparency and Customer Involvement
12:04 Challenges of Running a Small Business
14:56 Growth and Community Support
17:49 The Importance of Local Production
21:07 Sustainability in the Supply Chain
23:59 Educating Consumers on Sustainable Choices
26:58 Lessons Learned and Personal Growth
30:04 Future Goals and Innovations
33:04 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
Transcript
Shannon
I try to explain and educate. But it's my job, I feel, to educate customers or potential customers the importance, and again, not only my shop, but to understand what they're buying and who they're buying from just to make sure that they feel good. I know that so many people don't have the means really to buy slow fashion or educate themselves on the importance and if my customers are choosing my shop to buy something from me when I know most people are financially in a hard time like that that fills my heart and it makes me understand the importance of what they want. You know, like they want to know who they're buying from and I'm honored that they're buying from us.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams podcast where we dive into the stories behind purpose-driven brands and the people shaping the future of fashion. Today, I'm joined by Shannon, the owner of Simply Merino, a Canadian clothing brand known for its incredibly soft, sustainable everyday essentials crafted exclusively from Australian Merino wool. From cozy sweats, t-shirts and swimwear to elevated basics for women, men and kids.
Simply Merino is redefining comfort with a focus on minimalism, quality, and conscious living. Based in Vancouver, Simply Merino designs and manufactures all of its pieces in Canada, allowing them to be personally involved in every stage of creation. At the heart of the brand is Australian Merino Wool, an incredibly soft, temperature-regulating, and durable fiber that's also naturally renewable, biodegradable, and doesn't release harmful microplastics when washed.
Shannon's commitment to sustainability goes beyond fabric choice. In fact, Merino has kept over 15,000 pounds of fabric scraps out of landfills through its own recycling efforts. In this episode, we talk about what it means to build a values led brand, how Simply Merino is tackling textile waste head on, and the challenges and rewards of growing a fashion business from the ground up. So let's get into it.
Welcome Shannon. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Shannon
Thank you so much for having me. That was a really great introduction. Thank you.
my pleasure. I think you have an incredible brand that's quite unique because you make all your clothing from Australian Merino wool and you make it right here in Canada.
That's right, we're very lucky, right in Vancouver, off of Clark Street.
Glynis Tao
Great. So I love to get to know you a little bit better. So let's go back to the beginning. Can you tell us about your background and how you got into this business?
Okay, yes.
Shannon
Before or like my last life, I was a teacher and I befriended one of the parents in my class and I loved her and she has three kids and just like, I actually just kind of wanted to be her to be honest. And she ran, she started Simply Merino. So she started it in 2010. Her husband is from New Zealand and her mother-in-law is a Merino wool supplier.
She talked to me about her business and I loved it. Fast forward a year, I had a kid and then we were hanging out and I just asked her how her business was. And to me from the outside, it looked easy. It looked like she had everything put together. She was easy breezy. And she's like, well, I can't do it anymore. I have to close the doors. It's just too much for me. There's too much going on. And I just can't do it.
And so I talked to my partner and I was like, oh, you know, like this would be fun. He's an engineer at the time. I think he was doing his MBA and just really go, it'd be fun thing to do. So I asked her and I approached her and I was like, Hey, like, do you, do you want to see it go somewhere? Or do you want to just close the doors? And she's like, I would love for someone to take it. And like someone who I love and trust.
So we bought her inventory and at the time it was just babies and pajamas and thermals and very small, all made in New Zealand. So that's how it started. So that was nine years ago. There's been many years of learning experiences, many tears. It was great. It was a great thing not to have started it from the ground up.
It was also very hard in the same way because I already had some customers, not many, but they had this expectation and I just, I honestly had no idea what I was doing and had to learn from all of my mistakes. But that's where it started and nine years ago and it's been growing every year and I'm very fortunate and I fell into this, but it's my passion and it's just been a really great journey.
Glynis Tao
Wow, that's amazing. That's a great story. So no background in business or fashion.
Shannon
You know, the more women that I meet who are small business owners, they don't have much business background either. It's just the passion that comes with it. And I was always an environmentalist and I got my degree in geography and just like really that was my passion. And I think because of that, that's really helped our business succeed and it wasn't about the money.
Does that make, like, it was more kind of like, this would be a fun thing to do, never expecting that it would be my full-time job and I don't teach anymore. But yes, no fashion, although I did make my grad dress when I was in grade 12. So there's that. I have some fashion.
Glynis Tao
There you go. That's great. I think really having that passion is a really important factor, right? In any business, I think you can learn all those other aspects, but the passion really carries you through the hard times and the challenges. So how did your own lifestyle, whether as a parent, a creative or a conscious consumer, shape your vision for the brand.
Shannon
Well, so I had my firstborn who was one at the time and I guess it was just well and then I had my second one a year or two after and that it yes it was important for my kids to wear natural fibers and understanding the health impacts of non-natural fabrics and synthetics were extremely important to me always. And having kids, it was even more important. But that was kind of like the drive of the beginning of the business of the natural fabric for kids. Then understanding that my customers also, the moms also wanted something and therefore I wanted something. Like the balance was hard. Everything was just, I don't really know how to answer the question.
The lifestyle, I guess it's, yeah, I'm always an outdoorsy person. I'm always a natural person. I did my holistic health practitioner course and lived on Salt Springs. So that has always been important to me. And that is true in our brand as well. And then it's like the natural colors and the beauty of the wool that is enhanced and not necessarily the styles.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. I can really see that come through in your branding aesthetic and your color palette. A lot of the nature natural colors. Why did you choose Merino Wall specifically? Because I know you took over your friend's business and they are already working with a New Zealand wall, did you say? So what really drew you to that fabric over others?
Shannon
It was just the properties. I knew Merino wool before with the bigger companies and loved it and understood it. And it was just the amazing qualities that it has, like the hypoallergenic, fire resistant, natural, wicking. The list goes on and the fact that it's renewable, it's natural.
That always intrigued me, but the business started with Merino wool. I can't pivot and say, okay, now we're gonna only make things in cotton where it's like 90% cheaper, which would be good with the financials, but it was always the heart of the brand.
Then understanding it more, we went to visit Australia and our supply chain and Merino sheep farms and like understanding the work that goes into it, the love that goes into it, the stories that are into it just inspires me more to work with the fabric.
It's such a beautiful fabric. Beautiful.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I mean, your fabric is really, it's, you use mostly knits, right? Knit fabrics and it looks so soft, you know, it's so comfortable compared to what you normally think of when you think of wool, kind of that maybe itchy, scratchy kind of feeling, but your clothes don't look like that at all.
Shannon
It's not. Sometimes, you know, there are a small percentage of people who can't wear it no matter if it's really soft or not. But I'd say like 99% of our customers. Yeah, it's it's so soft and it's easy to wear. And it's just because of the microns are so low, which means it's just like a really soft fiber as opposed to wool from other sheep. Merino sheep just have really fine fibers.
Glynis Tao
Simply Merino is known for its quality, transparency, and sustainability. How do those values show up in your design and production process?
Shannon
Well, we try to be as transparent as we can. Design wise, well, I always kind of go with what my customers and followers want to see. It's over the nine years of learning social media, because I had no idea what I was doing. People want to see who's behind the brand.
People wanna know what we do, where we have our products made, who makes them, how we design products. But I really try to get my customers involved. For example, a lot of our newer products, it's because people wanted them. If a lot of people are asking for a certain item, then I take them on the journey of trying to make the item that they want, right?
So it's always been important, it was never at the beginning of the business. I felt like I had to hide everything because we were so small. You know, like we were working out of our bedroom and then our garage. And it just was, for some reason I felt embarrassed because you follow people on Instagram and everything is perfect and they have the most perfect showroom and just like, I wasn't there and I wasn't transparent in that.
In those days, I wasn't with our business per se, but like, it wasn't until recently that I felt like it was so, it's so important to tell the whole story, you know? But that's what the feedback that I've got from the people who are our customers. So it was a learning experience for how much they want to see, how much transparency they want to see.
Glynis Tao
Hmm, okay. So from what you're saying, it sounds like you involve your customers in the process of the designing and production parts and taking their feedback and turning them into garments. Your pieces are beautiful and simple and functional. So how do you approach your product development for everyday essentials and what makes a garment worth producing?
Shannon
Great question. someone told me this a while ago. I can't remember who and I can't remember how long ago, but they're like, you need to make something that fits you well, that you love. Not everyone will love it. The fit won't work for everyone, but hopefully some people will. Hopefully like quite a few people will, right? So I never make anything that I wouldn't wear. You know, if a customer wants something like a tube top or something like that, I'm not gonna make it, you know, especially if I think that it won't work and I wouldn't wear it. So I do take into account what my customers want, but at the end of the day, I need to make something that I love with the colors that I love, with the different types of fabric that I love. So, as long as I trust myself and I am honest, then I think that I'm making a good product. And if I do make a sample that I hate, I'm not going to make it. You know?
Glynis Tao
So you're like the final decision judge that says whether or not this is going to go through or not.
Shannon
100% and it's just me. I'm designing it. I'm getting it made. I'm trying it on.
Glynis Tao
And it's nice to have a business like that where you're making something that you also love yourself, right?
Shannon
Yes. I wear my brand all the time.
Glynis Tao
That's amazing. So you do all your production in Vancouver, Canada. Yes. Has it been challenging to keep your productions, products Canadian made and has there been a renewed interest in making Canada products since the tariffs have been announced?
Shannon
No, it's never been an issue making anything in Canada. Vancouver has so many skilled seamstresses and manufacturers. I know right now there's a lot of manufacturers that don't have enough business because a lot of the American companies said no to Canadian made and they're out. So it's a really great time for Canadian apparel businesses to start making or thinking about making in Canada. But no, you know, it took a few years to find ones that we love. We've been working with the same three for, I don't know, five, six years. So they're our friends. know, if there's something wrong with, you know, there's always going to be some quality controls and if there's a seam that's wrong or it's like uneven, it's so easy for us to get in the car and they fix them, you know, without like, there's not even any hesitation because we have that relationship and because it's there, we're local.
Yes, there has been more interest in Canadian made, but that was, you know, when COVID started, everyone wanted to support local. Everyone wanted Canadian made, which was great. COVID actually really helped our business because everyone wanted to be outside and then they understood Merino wool and supporting small Canadian businesses. So yeah, that time was great for us. And again, right now, because of the tariffs in February, when there is a lot of fear regarding the tariffs, we had great sales, but will it last? I'm not sure, but I'm really glad that Canada or Canadian brands are being showcased and understanding the importance of Canadian made. And it's not as hard as one would think.
Glynis Tao
Great. So you recently took a trip to see your Australian wool supplier. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sort of what you saw, what learned?
Shannon
Yeah, well, we took our kids and it was a family trip and we've always been kind of working with it. We've been working with the same supplier and through emails and perhaps some phone calls. But on our end, we're thinking that they're a huge supplier and, you know, intimidating and coming from our little small shop. So we really want to understand them. We want to build that relationship. But also understand the process of processing Merino wool. So we went down there, we met our supplier in just out of Melbourne and it was so lovely. It's such a small facility. You know, it was funny because like you have these grandiose ideas and then you walk in and everyone knows your name and just like, it was just so interesting to understand how they knit and dye and what they're doing for sustainability. And it was just a really great experience and for our kids to understand like this is where our wool comes from. Also, we got to visit one of many Merino farms, but especially one that our wool actually came from. So we go there and
We stayed there overnight and it was just the most beautiful experience. The farm was incredibly beautiful and it's just so magical. And they were so excited to see a final product. They've never seen anything that would come from their sheep. So we got to show them and give them some of our product from their farm.
It was just so magical. It's hard to kind of put into words how important it was for me, just the passion and the understanding of the transparency is just, it was so great. I want to go back, but probably not for a few years. It was so great though.
Glynis Tao
Oh, that sounds amazing. Just to meet the people face to face. People grow your fibers, raw material, right? It's starting point.
Shannon
It's starting point and how many businesses are able to do that, right? Like we shook hands with the farmers who sheared the sheep to make it. It is just, it's just so special, so special.
Glynis Tao
This reminds me of a documentary I saw. Have you seen it? It's called Fashion Reimagine.
Shannon
I don't know if I have.
Glynis Tao
My gosh. It's a great film. It's documentary that follows. It's a UK brand, Mother Pearl. They're a creative director, designer, and they wanted to have the same thing, right? Full transparency with their supply chain where they source their materials. they were going to sourcing for wool and cotton. So, yeah, the whole documentary takes them along the journey.
They wanted to know exactly where the wool was coming from and the farmers and then, you know, the whole knitting process and everything, right, along the whole supply chain. It's a great film. think you would love it.
A lot of customers today are seeking out sustainable options. So how do you educate your audience about the benefits of Merino and the ethics behind your brand?
Shannon
While I try to put as much information on our website, we've got quite a few different pages that talk about the sustainability practices of our shop and the supply chain and so forth, but also social media, a bit of a broken record of the wrongdoings of fast fashion and not necessarily just talking about my brand, but how it's important to choose quality over costs perhaps or like knowing where your product comes from and who makes them and what it actually means. mostly it's social media to be honest. And again, it's like the kind of the question answer if whatever people want to hear, I try to explain and educate. But it's this constant thing because, you know, social media it's like three weeks later I have to do it again because there's different people who see it or didn't see it.
But it's my job, I feel, to educate customers or potential customers the importance and again, not only my shop, but to understand what they're buying and who they're buying from just to make sure that they feel good. I know that so many people don't have the means really to buy slow fashion or educate themselves on the importance. And if my customers are choosing my shop to buy something from me, when I know most people are financially in a hard time, that fills my heart and it makes me understand the importance of what they want. You know, like they want to know who they're buying from. And I'm honored that they're buying from us.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that must feel really good and reassuring, guess, to have the feeling that your customers understand and appreciate what you do.
Shannon
Yeah, 100%. Seeing so like, really don't know what I'm doing, you know? I'm trying, like I'm figuring it out, but I really, I'm just, I don't really know what I'm doing.
Glynis Tao
Well, let me ask you this question. What has your community of customers taught you throughout this journey or inspired you to do differently?
Shannon
To be honest, I feel so grateful for my community of customers because they've really embraced me and seem to appreciate me and what I do and what I make and how we make it and how transparent we are and that we're trying. And I think the bottom line is that our customers know that we're trying to be a better business, a sustainable, like we care. I think they've just taught me to follow my heart, that's what it is. To follow my heart because for so long I just kind of, for the first three or four years of owning this business and working so hard and just crying at nighttime because it was just me and.
I kept saying that I was a teacher, but I hadn't taught for three years because I wasn't, I never felt worthy of the label that I'm an entrepreneur or a business owner. I never felt like that. I still am like, no, you know what? No, I am proud now and I'm able to say it, but that's because of my community of customers who have taught me to be proud. You know? They're important.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. And this is a good segue to lead me into the next question about, okay, challenges and lessons learned. What were some of the biggest challenges you faced early on as a business owner?
Shannon
Well, like I said, we had no idea what we were doing. And in this industry, I think it's different now, but everyone was very hush-hush of where they would make their garments, right? Like no one would say where they would make them because they didn't want anyone else to come in and take over their space. So it was so hard to find a manufacturer. And the first manufacturer we had did not go well, had the wrong machine and basically, like I said, I already had some customers, so they were waiting on our restock of the products that have already been made and she had used the wrong machine, so when you put it on, it stretched and the threads broke and I didn't know what, like we didn't have a lot of money and customers were upset.
But I didn't refund them. I didn't know what I was doing. I was like, okay, well, sorry, this is what happened. If you want to fix it, we'll pay to get it fixed. Or I can't remember what we did, but I wasn't, I didn't do that well. I felt like it was our error. What we should have done was just like, you know, scrapped it all and then just started fresh. But I still feel bad for that because those customers walked away with, you know, not so great product.
As well as like, I had two small kids and I, it was incredibly hard. The balance for women, I'm sure there's balance for men as well, but I would resent my baby for not sleeping because I had to count stock. I had to fill orders. I had to, I would get mad at her for not sleeping right away at nighttime and I, I've, it hurts my heart because it was such a hard time. Cause I couldn't figure it out and I felt like I had to do everything right away in order for our business to grow. Now, you know, nine years later, I have a lot more spare time because I would, I'm able to, have some employees that help me. When you start out a new business, you have no help financially. You have no finances. And with kids, it was really hard.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so you had a baby already, right? When you had taken over the business and then you had your second child too. How old are your kids now?
Shannon
10, almost 11 and almost 8.
Shannon
Yeah, it's good times now and it's fun for them to see our business now. But I almost think like it would have been easier if I started something now rather than when they were really little when they depended on you so much, right? Yeah, it's hard.
Glynis Tao
And this is a family business, Is your husband involved in it as well?
Shannon
Yeah, we own it 100% and then we have a few employees that help with packing orders and customer service, but that's it. So it's just us. And now, you know, when we first, the first few years, I'd never say that like, oh, we're a big business. I never would say a big business, you know, it was, I was embarrassed that it was just us.
Glynis Tao
My gosh, I have to show you this post that I made on Instagram about the same thing because I had a clothing brand before. You know, those early days when I was cutting and sewing, making everything myself on my kitchen table, I was hiding behind it and saying, pretending that I was like this large corporation. You know?
Shannon
Yeah, I know had this facade right and just kind of hid behind the products and I don't know if storytelling was a big deal back then, right? Right now it is. Yeah, it's funny how we felt ashamed of working hard in our kitchen table. I still work on my kitchen table, by the way. That's my office.
Glynis Tao
There's nothing wrong with that. That's great. you should show us more of that behind the scenes. I'd love to see it.
So let's move on to talking about growth. What were some pivotal moments that helped Simply Merino grow from an idea into a successful business?
Shannon
It was a slow growth, you know, we've been growing every year to a really great pace for us. Like I said, we're very small. We have no intention of becoming this big company. don't think being bigger means better, right? Like there comes more problems and I just that is not of interest to me.
To be honest, COVID really helped us. Like that was a pivotal moment where we were sought after in a way, right? Like we ticked off quite a few check marks for what Canadians wanted at the time. So we were very fortunate to get a big boost of sales during that time. And it was organic growth and then certain people found our shop and organically shared it. And I felt like that was part of a lot of our growth too. When bigger names tend to share something, people listen. So we had a few great people who, again, just shared our shop and helped us grow in that. And then I think that was our biggest growth during the first year and a year and a half of COVID. And then it's been growing since, but I felt like that was like a big push.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and I think, I mean, we talked a little bit about educating consumer. Just in terms of like the brand itself and building awareness and trust for a, I guess a lesser known, let's common fabric like Merino wool. Yeah, how did you build this awareness, especially in the Canadian market?
Shannon
Gosh, um, I don't really know. I don't think it was me. I don't think I did anything different. I felt like maybe I pushed more of the the properties of Merino wool and why it was important for that time of our life, but I honestly think I don't think it was much about me. I think it was other people who shared about us and educated their followers or customers or whomever. But I don't think it was entirely me.
Glynis Tao
Right. Yeah, no, that's really interesting. You say that. do you like, I'm just curious to know, I guess from a more business standpoint, a point of view, right? Because the podcast is really more intended for fashion printers and business owners. just your sort of insight on all this. So like what marketing or customer strategies helped you to create the loyalty for your brand and getting those repeat customers?
Shannon
Great question. Well, we've really never paid for any marketing. So Google AdWords we did for a year, I think, but we don't invest in a lot of marketing. Again, like I didn't have a strategy by any means. There's just by chance certain groups, so a lot of different groups like natural fabrics and when our shop is featured in these groups such as like homesteading families. Homestead is huge right now. So that's farms and you know natural lifestyles. It's huge. We gained so many new customers but I didn't know about that community, right?
So it wasn't, I wasn't searching for different ways of marketing. It kind of organically just happened. So these different communities and groups shared us and then I understood, wow, these outdoor communities really want wool. I'm going to market that or like hashtag outdoor or
work with outdoor schools, which we've done many times, right? So I didn't have a strategy. It was all kind of like what I experienced and then I followed through from that. Does that make sense?
Glynis Tao
That's really interesting. I think every company does things differently. Yeah. It's interesting that you share that and these communities that you just happen to, I guess, come across that you didn't know before.
Shannon
No, you know, obviously I knew that but I didn't know that how much interest they wanted or invested in natural fabrics, right? And I was like, So it was by chance. But I don't think it's for every fabric. If this is for, you know, fashion students or fashion businesses, it's not for every fabric. But I think it's listening and understanding where the need is or your niche market, right? And then kind of market it through that.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, very good advice. I love it. So let's talk about the future. How has your brand and your vision evolved over the years? I mean, from the beginning, when you first started to where you are now, how has your vision for the brand evolved?
Shannon
Well, like I said, it started just as kids because, you know what, 10 plus years ago it was very hard to find any pajamas that weren't chemically treated with fire retardants and Merino wool is naturally fire resistant. So the brand focused on kids and still does. But when I started making, first I made a long sleeve shirt for women.
And then it kind of just naturally just progressed into more of a women centered brand. And again, it's kind of like what people were wanting. You know, there's the basics for kids, but you can't really go too much more with the kids line. But for women, there's so many different products that you could make
And to be honest, it's more inspiring for me because then I, like kids, yes, of course it's important. They are important, but these I get to have like different styles and different fabrics. That's been exciting too. I've really, I've been more using different types of weaves. So like waffle and fleece and a thicker rib. That's really exciting. That really helped. Kind of like my inspiration for the brand.
Glynis Tao
Do you have any new product, collaborations, goals on horizon?
Shannon
Okay, yes, so I'm bringing out new products, not all the time, just the products that I feel are worthy of making and the need for them. I'm making some men's underwear, because our Merino underwear for women is one of our biggest selling products. And I have a little boy and he needs some wool underwear, so I'm making those. So kind of like making a bit more for men, not much. I really am more focused on women and a few items for men and obviously kids.
So we've saved over 15,000 pounds of our textile waste in production and last summer we shipped it on a train to North Carolina where they are recycling it. So our next big project is making products out of our recycled wool. So that is like, that's my excitement for the next probably year. So yeah, that's the, and the goal, the goal is just to keep doing what I'm doing and not focus on numbers per se, but just focus on my true self and what my values are for our brand.
Glynis Tao
That sounds amazing. So the scraps that got sent down to North Carolina, did you say, are actually going to be repurposed into something else like turned into another fiber that you're going to use?
Shannon
Yeah, so they are shredding it and they have already shredded it and now they are just testing what kind of thread or yarn that they can make it into. So they would have to add either virgin wool with it to make it stronger or not, or maybe cotton or something. And then we're going to see what we can make.
It's kind of a testing period, but yes, it's going to become wool again, not necessarily a fabric, like a knitted something or other, know, socks and hats and maybe a sweater and a blanket, but all from our recycled textile waste. I know, I know. So that's what I'm really looking forward to for sure.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, wow. So last question. So what advice would you give to other women or mompreneurs starting their own sustainable fashion brand or starting their own sustainable fashion brand?
Shannon
I would say go for it and don't be afraid of storytelling. Be transparent. Stay true to your values and what is important to your brand, whether it's design or the fabric. But if you're a true sustainable fashion brand, then you have to work hard and you have to earn that title.
You know? So, as long as you have a passion and you have a drive, then do it. It's hard, but you gotta do it. You gotta try.
Glynis Tao
Yes, you gotta try. Yeah, no, I mean, I really feel what you're saying. Just really, it truly comes from the heart. I can feel it.
Shannon
I think that if you're doing it just for the money, don't do it.
Glynis Tao
No, don't do it. It's not a business to get into to get rich fast.
Shannon
Exactly. It was you know, five years. It took us five years to even make any money. Right? Don't do it for money because it's likely it's not going to happen. But if you're doing it to make a change and to do it to do something better, then yes, of course, do it.
Glynis Tao
Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Shannon
I would say email or social media. I'm the one behind social media, so any messages go to me. My email address, shannon@simplymarino.com. Those are the two best ways to get a hold of me.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much, Shannon, for sharing your journey, insights, and inspiration with us today.
Shannon
Thanks for having me. That was so fun.
Glynis Tao
That was great. If you're listening and want to experience the comfort of sustainable Merino wool for yourself, head to simplymerino.ca.
In this episode, James Friedrich, owner of Ambler Mountain Works and founder of Venturing Up, talks about pricing strategies for entrepreneurs. Drawing from his extensive experience managing a $60 million product portfolio at MEC and his own entrepreneurial journey, James explains how to set prices based on your products’ values and avoid common pricing mistakes in order to maximize profit.
James introduces the Pricing for Profit methodology taught in his free email course. He also provides examples of well-known brands that use value-based pricing to illustrate how companies could potentially charge more for their products.
Whether you’re a fashion brand owner launching a product or looking to create healthier margins on your products, James’ advice will help you to price confidently, attract ideal customers, and build a thriving, standout brand.
About James Friedrich
James Friedrich is the owner of Ambler Mountain Works and Venturing Up. He was formerly a senior merchant at MEC where he ran a successful $60 million product portfolio. He started his career as an entrepreneur and his goal with Venturing Up is to provide entrepreneurs with the knowledge, mentorship and community he wished he had when he started out many years ago.
Focus on the unique value your product provides to set prices that align with what your customers are willing to pay.
Narrow your target to a specific audience with clear needs to improve customer engagement and justify higher pricing.
Clearly communicate the benefits and features that make your product worth the price.
Conduct your own research to avoid relying on competitor pricing that may not reflect your product’s true value.
Experiment with pricing changes periodically and use sales and margin data to refine your strategy.
Maintain healthy cash flow by pricing your products to ensure strong margins and efficient inventory turnover.
Revisit your pricing regularly to stay competitive and ensure profitability over time.
Interview themes
What is value-based pricing?
Value-based pricing is a method where a company sets its product or service prices based on the perceived value to the customer rather than solely on production costs or competitor prices. This approach aligns prices with customer perceptions, ensuring that businesses maximize their profitability while delivering products that customers feel are worth the price. Value-based pricing requires a deep understanding of customer needs, preferences, and the unique benefits that the offering provides.
Through Venturing Up, James provides a free Pricing for Profit email course that is a step-by-step process based on value-based pricing. It teaches entrepreneurs to evaluate, test, and refine their pricing strategies to achieve profitability and sustainable growth.
What are the benefits of value-based pricing?
Increased profit margins: By pricing products based on their value to customers, businesses can charge more than cost-plus or what market-based methods typically allow. This leads to higher profit margins.
Stronger customer loyalty: Customers are more likely to stay loyal to a brand when they feel they’re receiving value that justifies the price. This builds trust and long-term relationships.
Differentiation from competitors: Value-based pricing highlights the unique benefits and features of a product, making it stand out in a crowded market.
What are some examples of brands that use value-based pricing?
James Friedrich highlights Yeti as a prime example of value-based pricing. Yeti disrupted a market of $50 coolers by offering products priced three to five times higher, focusing on premium features like extended ice retention and unmatched durability. By redefining the cooler category and building a high-end lifestyle brand, Yeti demonstrated that customers willingly pay more for exceptional value, driving the company to billion-dollar success.
Apple is another brand that James mentions as an example of using value-based pricing. Apple dominates its categories with products consistently priced higher than competitors by focusing on performance features customers care about—sleek design, intuitive usability, and status appeal. Rather than competing on cost, Apple builds products that justify their premium price through unmatched customer experience and perceived value.
How do you know if your pricing is working?
Success is not just about how many units you sell—it’s about profitability and sustainability. Business owners should measure metrics such as:
Profit margins: Are you earning enough to cover all business expenses and reinvest in growth?
Sales trends: Are your sales growing or stagnating?
Inventory turnover: Are products selling quickly enough to maintain healthy cash flow?
James suggests periodic price testing. For instance, raise your price slightly for a set period and compare revenue and sales performance to a baseline.
What are some common pricing mistakes?
Copycat pricing: Assuming competitors have done their homework can lead you to set prices that don’t reflect your product’s value. For example, if everyone else is pricing similar products at $20, that doesn’t mean your unique features can’t command $30 or more.
Undervaluing your work: Entrepreneurs often let fear or self-doubt lead to underpricing. This mindset can hurt your margins and make it impossible to scale.
Overbuilt products without value alignment: If you add costs to your product that the market doesn’t value (e.g., unnecessary features), you’ll struggle to achieve healthy margins.
How could selling lower volumes at a higher price point be beneficial?
James explains that selling lower volumes at a higher price is not always a bad thing. Increased pricing boosts margins, which could offset a drop in sales volume. He advises entrepreneurs to focus on overall profitability rather than sales numbers alone. Raising prices while delivering strong value increases margins and improves cash flow, which supports long-term growth.
What does it mean to niche and increase?
According to James, “niche and increase” means to identify and target a specific audience whose needs align with your product’s unique features. This helps differentiate your brand in the marketplace and allows you to increase prices by delivering tailored value. For example, a pediatric dentist can charge more than a general dentist by addressing specific needs for children. This targeted strategy enhances perceived value, justifies premium pricing, and builds stronger customer loyalty and market presence.
01:51 James Friedrich's Journey: From Merchant to Entrepreneur
08:31 Lessons from Failure: The Birth of Venturing Up
15:46 Pricing for Profit: Strategies for Entrepreneurs
20:54 The Value Equation: Aligning Price with Perceived Value
28:57 Niche Targeting: The Key to Successful Marketing
33:43 Testing Pricing Strategies: Metrics and Adjustments
39:56 The Psychological Aspect of Pricing: Overcoming Fear
43:36 Future Goals: Expanding Ambler Mountain Works
Transcript
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
James Friedrich is the owner of Ambler Mountain Works and Venturing Up. He was formerly a senior merchant at MEC where he ran a successful $60 million product portfolio. He started his career as an entrepreneur and his goal with Venturing Up is to provide entrepreneurs with the knowledge, mentorship and community he wished he had when he started out many years ago.
Welcome James, it's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
James Friedrich
Thank you, Glynis. I'm super stoked to be here and excited to be talking to you.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. I mean, there's been a few changes that happened the last little while. I just want to get caught up here. I know about your background a little bit that you were working at MEC as a senior merchant there for about seven years?
James
Seven years.
Glynis Tao
Wow. Yeah.
And then most recently you decided to step into entrepreneurship and become the owner of Ambler Mountain Works. So that's really exciting. I think I want to touch a little bit on that in this interview. But can you just tell us a little bit about your background and how you first got into product world?
James
Yeah, for sure. And I think the story of my background is actually kind of also parlays into why I ultimately acquired Ambler Mountain Works. But I'll start at the beginning. And so my journey and product really began for me probably when I was around like 12 or 13 years old. And this was in the early to mid nineties. I'm dating myself by saying, by giving the years here. And at the time I was really into skateboarding and the trend in skateboarding was baggy pants, super, super baggy pants. At the time you couldn't buy those baggy pants. I have to buy oversized pants. You know, like I was wearing like size, like 38 pants as a 12 year old. And so I wanted to be able, so I had this thought in my mind where I was thinking, I want these baggy pants, but I want this gigantic waist. Maybe I can modify a pair of pants or do something to kind of get these, these really baggy pants I was looking for. So what I ended up doing was cutting open the inseam on a pair of existing pants. And sewing in a strip of material to turn them into, turn them into another, like a super baggy pair of pants. And that they turned it, they turned out awful. You know, it was a, I didn't know how to use a sewing machine or anything like that. But ultimately I could wear them. And that was just something about that was so inspiring and exciting that I could kind of like take and create, or in this case, modify something to, into what I was looking for. That it kind of started me down the path of getting into products. And I kept going from there.
I kept making more clothes and eventually kind of throughout my high school careers, I really got into designing and sewing clothes. I made all my own jeans. was dyeing denim. And I ultimately also figured out how to, you know, buy small amounts of like Gore-Tex and I got into outerwear, doing seam sealing and all these things kind of at home and really got into apparel and clothing design from probably about 12 years old to 17 or 18 years old.
And then my passion for snowboarding kind of kicked in and I, and I went off to the mountains and did a couple of years of snowboarding. And when I came back from, from the mountains, I wanted to be able to kind of continue to work in my passion of snowboarding. At the same time I, as I had gone to, into university and I was at the time studying engineering, I said, okay, how can I blend this like passion for snowboarding and this kind of love of like creating things.
And ultimately I thought, hey, you know what, I'm going to try and build a snowboard. And I took on this project of kind of building and constructing a snowboard. again, kind of like the, kind of like the, what I was telling you earlier about the super baggy pants. I took on this project and I was able to find materials and figure out how as a person as a hobbyist, you can actually build and construct your own snowboard. And that's what I did. Again, it wasn't perfect. There were a lot of issues with it, but it was so inspiring to me that I could build something I could go out and ride. And then I was blending this passion, this passion for snowboarding with some of my technical background that I continued to build more and more snowboards.
And ultimately when I graduated from university together with a close friend, we launched our own snowboard company. So we designed and manufactured snowboards and sold them throughout Western Canada, both direct to consumer and through wholesalers under the brand name Class 5 Snowboards. And that was a really cool experience. Ultimately, that business, that company, Class Five Snowboards, I put my heart and soul into it, but ultimately it wasn't successful.
And that experience of kind of putting all your energy and time and money into something and having it not turn out, was just a, just this huge blow to me. And it took me a long time to kind of like recover from that. But ultimately that's, you know, kind of fast forward to where I am right now and acquiring Ambler. That's ultimately what drove me to do that and the work I do at Venturing Up. My mission, kind of like a dual mission here, is that the pain that I experienced through that failure, I want to help as many people as possible avoid that pain in their own lives. At the same time as building a successful business, building and growing a successful business and using that business and the experience that I have in that business to be able to help other people. So ultimately that's why I've kind of come to, you know, come to acquire Ambler and super excited to be working in Ambler. It's because it just aligns with that long-term mission that I've had. And that's where, know, my roundabout way of kind of telling you why I'm here today as the owner of Ambler.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. And I think I knew a little bit about that because I think you shared it during your talk at Apparel Camp.
James Friedrich
Yes.
Glynis Tao
Sort of where I think we first met and I heard your talk and speaking about your experience with how you've managed such a huge project portfolio and all your experience with that. I was like, this is really incredible. That's kind of what sparked me to want to reach out to you and talk about it more. And also because you have both that corporate experience working for a big brand. cause I also saw that you worked at Mustang Survival.
James Friedrich
Yeah, that's right. So when things kind of were wrapping up with Class Five, I was looking kind of like, okay, I'm looking where would I go next? And I found this company in Vancouver, Mustang Survival. And it just seemed like at the time a perfect fit for me because they were making very technical products, but they were apparel based products. So we were making, you know, life saving equipment that was made from apparel. it kind of blended this background that I had of, you know, designing and making my own clothes, but also this engineering and technical engineering background I had. So I got a job there as a product development engineer, bringing, you know, designing and running new product development projects and bringing new products to market. And that was just such a wonderful experience working for that company.
There was so much, so much learning that happened there. But the one question that I would always kind of like sit in the back of my mind was we would technically be able to execute on a product, like design and create a product where it would meet the product specifications. But that didn't necessarily mean that the product was going to be successful in the marketplace. So just because we could technically design something didn't mean commercially it was going to be successful. And that kind of exploring that question along with the passion that I had mentioned earlier around the, you know, that pain of helping other entrepreneurs kind of kept pushing me to look at what's further up the chain. What are the inputs that come into product development projects? How do we create products that are successful? And I moved from being a product development engineer into being the commercial product manager for Mustang. So I managed the recreational product portfolio, all of our sailing, fishing, and general recreational products that you would find through retailers.
And that was such a great exposure into dealing with, you know, retail buyers. At the time our big accounts were people like Bass Pro in the U S Cabela's in the US, those people who are familiar with boating. There's a big company called West Marine that has like, think 180 doors in the US something along those lines. So dealing with these large retailers, especialty retailers as a product manager was so just, just really unlocked this whole new world of sitting between developing product, working with their sales teams and understanding what these large retailers want.
That whole experience at Mustang was just like, there was just so many positives and so much learning I took out of my time there that kind of informed me and helped me as I've been, you know, in the various stages, other things I've done throughout my career.
Glynis Tao
That stepping stone towards becoming a senior merchant at MEC, which was your next role. And then, like just kind of going through your journey of how you became a senior merchant at MEC to founding Venturing Up and then now becoming the owner of Ambler Mountain Works. I think now this like, you know, explains a little bit better and I think I have better understanding of what was going on. I think your why or your reason was always wanting to help other people, to avoid the pain that you had went through when you had first started your business, right? Classified snowboards and anything that was, so that was always that driving force, right? Behind everything that you did.
James Friedrich
Yeah, there was always some part of that was just there because that pain, the pain was deep. So it was always kind of in the back of my mind and when I left Mustang to join MEC and become a merchant, it was just kind of a dream come true in some ways. Working for MEC had always been something that I had in the back of my mind. I just, I really loved the values based organization. I loved the products that the company dealt with. I loved at the time it was a co-op and I loved the co-op structure. And so being able to like move into MEC and get a job as a merchant was incredible.
The cool thing for me that I found and the insight that I was able to gain from MEC, when you're working within a brand or within your own company, you're kind of just, you're a little bit siloed. You get to see what other brands or companies are putting out there in their marketing or what's on display on the store shelves of various retailers. But you don't quite know what's happening behind the scenes. Like how is one brand performing against another brand?
What's the standard in the industry and the cool part about working for that I found about working for a company like MEC is you really got that behind the scenes look. And I got to deal with hundreds and hundreds of companies and over my career, thousands and thousands of products. And you get to see, what's working and what's not working and what brands kind of have everything together and both outwardly and inwardly or vice versa. And it was, it was just such a, you know, this breadth of experience that I got to gain from that, that I don't know how you'd be able to get an experience like that elsewhere because you're not going to get exposed to all those behind the scenes numbers. Like, this brand, they're crushing it, but nobody even knows them. They're just like, they're a small brand and they're just doing so well. They're not even on the radar for everyone else.
Or this big brand that everyone thinks is amazing. Actually they suck in all these areas and you don't get that insight because you can't see behind the curtain. And being able to kind of experience that firsthand with MEC was awesome. And it really provided me with a lot of insight that ultimately led to why I started Venturing Up. Cause I was reflecting on my career and that pain from Class Five and and now with this breadth of experience in a lot of different areas. I was like, you know, maybe there's a way I can kind of like be involved with entrepreneurs now and help them, help them in some way, which is, I think it was like two-ish years ago that I started Venturing Up and alongside working at MEC and consulting with startup engineers, startup entrepreneurs to help them kind of like launch and grow their, launch and grow their product businesses.
Glynis Tao
How did your experience managing a $60 million product portfolio at MEC influence the methodology that you teach in your free email course, Pricing for Profit? Actually, by the way, you can access James's course, Pricing for Profit, on your website, VenturingUp.com/free course, right? So I just wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about that and just sort of how your experience sort of played into your role in helping entrepreneurs and Venturing Up.
James Friedrich
Sure. Yeah. And as it relates to the pricing, like, you know, what I saw is, and I think a lot of people have experienced this too. When you're in a product business, you know, the price of your product, the cost of your product, and ultimately the price of your product, the difference between those two being your margin. That's what, that has to pay for everything that you do in your business. That's all your profits. That's all the, you know, non-product related expenses.
Everything that happens in your business is based on your margin. So your price is really, really important because it's ultimately what's going to define your profitability and the potential for your products to sell. As you know, having worked on so many products, I've seen every pricing strategy out there and I've seen it be successful for one reason or another, and also not be successful for other reasons.
And what I want to be able to do with the Pricing for Profit email course was to be able to address the common challenges that I saw with small entrepreneurs as it relates to pricing. And the first thing that we want to be aware of is that entrepreneurs can sometimes feel that their cost is too high and that they, because they're not getting any economies of scale.
Often as a startup business, you're kind of just squeaking in, you're getting the minimum order quantity from a factory or on a, with a supplier or a trim or something like that. And you're kind of, your costs are always, your product costs are always at kind of the highest they're going to be when you're starting out because you have no volume to put behind those product costs. So a lot of times people felt, and I certainly felt it too, that my margin was getting squeezed because of my costing.
And that's, that's true to some degree, but what I wanted to shine a light on with Pricing for Profit is how much opportunity there is for you as a small entrepreneur to get it right on your pricing. And you know, the way I like to think about it is like, you can spend three or four months trying to reduce your product costs by a few dollars, or you can spend like five or 10 minutes increasing your price by that same amount. And the leverage that you get on pricing, the return on investment and turn on time you get from pricing just can't be matched.
But you can't just go around changing your prices to whatever you want just because you feel like it. So with Pricing for Profit, we provide a step-by-step system, a systematic process that you can go through to really evaluate how your product creates value in the marketplace and to set a price that provides you profit. But also your customers and the people who buy your product are going to see it as being valuable and ultimately purchase your purchase product.
So that's what, that was just a huge leverage point that I saw a lot of entrepreneurs struggling with. So yeah, you can, you can download that. It's a 10 step email course. If you just go to venturingup.com, you'll see it. You can sign up for that. You'll get those emails and we'll walk you through step by step exactly how to do that for your business. It’s totally free. Yeah, so if you're interested, I would check that out.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So I would recommend anyone listening with the product-based business to go check out James's course because it's a different way of looking at pricing. would say compared to typically how, you know, how I've always done it and how I was taught was looking at your margins, right? And just like making sure that you have enough margin, you're calculating at maybe a 50% gross margin. Yeah. But you actually discouraged costs plus pricing model, right? Talking about how businesses shouldn't only determine the price based only on their production costs alone, but to look more into the product value.
James Friedrich
Yes. Yeah, totally. And that's that's exactly
There's a saying out there and I've heard it before, but I'll kind of paraphrase it or steal it here is that like, nobody cares how much the product costs you to make. When we go buy something on sale at a store and we see it 50% off, we don't think of that, you know, that product's getting sold for the same as it costs them to make. Or if we know, a product costs thousands of dollars.
We don't, we don't know what the costs are and we don't as consumers, we don't actually care what the costs are. What we care about is how is that product providing value to us? And if we can take a value-based lens to our pricing, that means that we can effectively create a price for that product that's based on the value it creates in the marketplace. And if our costs are low, then we can compare to the value that we're creating, then we get that margin, and that margin can be higher than a 50% or a 60% margin.
But the reverse is also true, where if we have built a lot of cost into our product, but the marketplace doesn't value those costs that we built into our product, then our margins are going to be tight. The market doesn't value what we've done. And both, I've seen both those examples, but at least when you have the value-based pricing, you've done some of that methodology. Even if your costs, you're seeing, you know what, I've maybe overbuilt my product. You have some idea of what to take out of the product to reduce those costs and bring your value back in line.
I'll pop one more in there. The other one that I see as being really common is copycat pricing where you just have a product and you just look in the marketplace and you see everyone else is selling their similar product for $20. So guess what? That's going to be my price too, $20. This product is just worth $20. And that again, it's just, there's a whole bunch of bad things. The number one thing that's built into that is that you've made an assumption that everyone else has all done their homework and they've magically picked the perfect price for the product.
So you assume that everyone else has it all together, which in my experience, most people do not, right? You get to peek behind the curtain of a bunch of different companies. Most people, they're all kind of like struggling in the same way that you are. So don't assume people are smarter than you and do that research. And there may be an opportunity for a product, let's say a product priced at $20 for there to be a $30 product, a $40 product or a $50 product that's just been unexplored in the marketplace.
And I'll give just a little example of that. If we rewind maybe like 10, 11 years ago in the cooler market, you used to go to the Canadian Tire and you would buy a Coleman cooler and it would be, I don't know, 50 or 60 bucks or something like that. And then along came a brand named Yeti who took a totally different view on the cooler market.
And came out with coolers that were three, four, five times the price point of, of what a Coleman cooler would be at a store like Canadian Tire. But they backed it up with reasons like why that cooler was so great, you know, how long the ice would last in it, that you could stand on top and all these other features. And guess what? There's a huge market there. And now Yetis, you know, they opened this giant marketplace. Yeti’s well over a billion, I don't know what the actual revenue is, but it's, you know, a dominant player and opened up a brand new category of these high-end coolers. And guess what? There was a value, there's a place in the market for something like that, that nobody had been exploring. And that can be available to you too.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So that's great. So that's another example of just using the concept of providing value or what you call that. Is that how you describe the value equation in your course about how you leverage this? Can explain how entrepreneurs can leverage this equation to be able to align the product price with customers' perceived value?
James Friedrich
Yeah, sure. So the equation that I've used, and I got this a number of years ago from engineering actually, is that we were looking at these large projects that were multi-million dollar projects. Some projects might be $5 million and one project might be $2 million. Well, how do you compare which one's better? These are just vastly different things. And there's an equation that I learned called the value equation, which is that we see value as being the performance of something divided by the cost. And we can think about this. I'll give you a couple of common examples of how that equation might apply.
The first one is Costco. So you go into Costco and people would say, is Costco good value? People, people generally say, yeah, Costco is great value, right? Why is Costco such a great value? Because when you, when you go in there, you get a lot of stuff or you get a big package, right? You're getting a lot of things and what you're paying for that is probably similar or less than what you might pay at a regular, a different store. So the value equation there is saying the performance in this case with Costco is I'm getting a lot of things for cost that is relatively the same. So that's great value. That's really, that's really good values. Okay. Well, there's one example and that seems like an obvious one. many people will be like, yeah, Costco is great value.
Another way of thinking about the value equation is when we think of low cost or products that were lower price, we often call them value. It’s really good value. But when things get higher priced, our language changes to being like, that's really valuable. But it's the same thing, right? We're saying the same thing as like there's something behind that.
And another brand that is creating high value products, but we kind of use the word valuable more is Apple. So Apple doesn't have low priced products. Apple's products are typically the highest priced products in the categories that it competes in. But we don't see those products as being or crappy or anything like that. We see those products as being amazing and highly desirable. And again, because of the value equation, what Apple's done is they understand the performance that their customers are looking for.
They're looking for products that are beautiful, products that are really easy to use, products that give them some level of status when they're using them. Those are all the performance characteristics that Apple's building into their products.
And as such, they can charge a higher price for them, but the value equation still holds because those performance characteristics are high, but the cost, even though it's higher, is still justified based on those performance characteristics. So again, we see that as being really valuable. So using that value equation to your advantage is really about understanding what the performance that your product creates relative to the cost of your product itself. And that's kind of the heart and soul of value-based pricing.
Glynis Tao
And in your course, you actually teach people how to calculate that or how to come up with that equation.
James Friedrich
Totally. We go through a step-by-step process of being able to take that value equation, define the performance of your product, go out and objectively measure that performance as it relates to your cost and and be able to, you know, it's a step-by-step process to be able to get you into the target range for your pricing so that you have a confident kind of objective based approach to start your pricing from.
Glynis Tao
Okay. Awesome. Let's move on to customer targeting niche market focus. Sure. So in your course, you discuss the importance of targeting a specific niche.
How can entrepreneurs effectively identify and target a niche and what impact does this have on pricing?
James Friedrich
Yeah. So niche is niche or just a target market in some way is so important because if we end up targeting everyone, we kind of end up targeting no one. And the example that I'll give is, you know, just the difference between target markets is I'll say, let's imagine I have a few kids and I need to take my kids to the dentist and there's a regular dentist and there's a dentist that specializes in kids. So those two dentists, if I took my kids to them, those two dentists might do the exact same thing to check my kids' teeth and clean them and whatnot.
But the dentist that has said that they're specifically a kid's dentist is likely to be able to charge a lot more and also be able to speak to exactly what they're doing. As a parent who has a kid who needs to go to the dentist, I'm to be way more engaged and intrigued and open to looking at that dentist, the kid dentist, only because they have targeted the person that they're servicing. And when we can kind of niche down and target specifically who we're going after, it allows our language to be more precise. It allows the value propositions from the value equation to be more specific to the pain that that person might be feeling. And it just increases the likelihood that we're going to be successful with our product.
And now, Glynis, I know you do SEO work and some marketing work, and I'm sure that if a client came to you and knew some very specific target market information, it's going to be a lot easier for you to execute on the backend because you have an idea of who, okay, who are they going after and what keywords might be associated with that target and how can we write SEO copy for our website that's going to kind of like appeal to those keywords, but also to that target demographic. It just makes the entire process, everything you're doing become easier and more streamlined by having a tight target market.
Glynis Tao
You're absolutely right about that. Even in my work it all goes back to your ideal customer and who is it that you're trying to appeal to that you're trying to attract? Cause if you have no idea, you're not going to know what to say to them. So everything that you do from your pricing, your marketing, the language that you use, you know, what you say to them even like for me as a starting point, when it comes to keyword research, right? We need to know who's your audience.
James Friedrich
Exactly.
Glynis Tao
So that we could choose those right, the right keywords based on what it is that they're looking for.
James Friedrich
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I know for a lot of people starting out and I've had this fear myself is that sometimes we look at these target markets and we niche down to like a more precise target market and we can sometimes feel like, Ooh, geez, we're cutting out all this potential by going more niche. It means I'm not going to have as many opportunities to sell my product or services.
And the first thing that I want to say to this is you're not getting married to this person, right? Like, it's not like you target this person and that's who you can target. That's the only person you can ever target for the rest of your life. You know, you've now set this in stone. It's a target market that can change. You can add target markets. You can adjust and refine these things over time. So you don't have to feel locked into something that somehow a target market is going to limit your potential.
But what it is going to do is again, provide you that ability to kind of talk to someone specifically, and it's going to be far more likely that you'll get some traction going. And then yeah, you can adjust and refine along the way. And ultimately like, you know, learn and change who might be the right for you.
Glynis Tao
Yes, I totally agree with that. Let's just move on to pricing strategy and testing because in your course, you recommend assigning performance scores to product benefits. I mean, without getting into too much, but maybe you just sort of explain how companies can objectively measure these scores and how it helps in setting the right price. And maybe you could just touch briefly on this. We'll recommend the listener to go sign up for your course on how to do that, but maybe you could just sort of explain.
James Friedrich
Yeah, on the outset, what we want to be able to do is we can't ignore, if you have a product, we can't ignore that there are other products in the marketplace that even if they're not doing the exact same thing that your product is doing, there's probably competitive products around your product. And so we have to understand that those exist and that they have a price associated with them and that the marketplace can see that price. So in some ways, those competitive products are helping to define what the value is of your product.
So the Pricing for Profit methodology essentially looks at your product and the feature sets or the performance characteristics that you're creating and also compares those to the feature sets and performance characteristics of the competitive set to help you understand where your value lies.
Now, what's really interesting is if you've designed something into your product or the way that you're positioning yourself or bringing your product to market is unique in the marketplace, well, then there's no market value associated with that kind of those unique characteristics. And that allows you to set higher prices on those unique areas because there isn't a comparable thing in the marketplace that the consumer can judge against.
So, that's the essence of the process is to be able to kind of like use these objective measures and objective methodology to help set your pricing and then take that product to the market and start doing some testing with it and seeing how the actual product performs in the marketplace with the pricing that you set.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. How often should businesses revisit and test their pricing strategies and what key metrics should they be tracking during these tests?
James Friedrich
Yeah. So it depends a lot on the business and the type of product. I'm going to take the assumption here that the person listening to this podcast is going to be in a more fashion based business. So that means they're coming out with, you know, a seasonal product line. Maybe twice a year or four times a year. And for someone like that, you're not going to be able to change your pricing mid season. That's not going to work with your retail partners or with your consumers, because that's just the way the industry flows there.
But I would certainly be looking at your pricing every single season and the performance of your pricing of your products every season and how those metrics might impact a future season for you. If it's a product that is more of an evergreen product that's living and isn't seasonally based then I would be reviewing that product again every like, you know, three months or six months to see how the pricing is affecting it.
If you're in a direct to consumer channel, primarily direct to consumer, you're in a wonderful position because you don't have retail partners to worry about. And then you can actually change your products, your pricing of your products, kind of as you want. I wouldn't change them all the time, but you can certainly experiment with pricing a lot more. And especially if you're not a big company, it's unlikely that your consumers are really going to notice some price experimenting that's happening for you. And it gives you a lot of opportunity to test and refine pricing. The main thing is that you want to be able to leave a product at a price for long enough that you're seeing a sales result that follows it. If you're changing prices too quickly, you might not be getting accurate data.
So what I would recommend is that you take a period of time with a look at a baseline for a period of time with a product and look at how it's selling, make a price change, leave it at that price change for some period of time again, to be able to compare those two. Did we sell more? Did we sell less? Did we sell the same? And be able to refine just, you know, reviewing those two hopefully somewhat equal periods of time to create that objective difference.
The one thing I will mention on price comparison is that if you've increased the price of your product and your sales went down in terms of like the number of units, let's say it went down, that might not be a bad thing. If your margin is increasing, you might be making more margin on slightly less revenue than if you kind of sold more products for a smaller price. So just really look at the facts kind of behind your products there, because sometimes having a slightly lower revenue is a good thing. If your margin is increased, it makes your business simpler and there's less to do there.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I know. Cause sometimes people think that they're focused on the number selling more of one thing, but are you pricing your product too low? Is that a sign of telling you that maybe you priced your products too low? If it's selling, you know, so much of this one thing, right? But are you actually making money off of it? Whereas if you increase your price of it, maybe you'd sell less, but you'd be making more.
James Friedrich
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen that come true many times.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. I think people are sort of afraid of how to price their products, especially when they're first starting out. And I've encountered so many startups who are just sort of like, I'll just mark it up this much because, you know, I have to be competitive be aligned with what's out there in the market, but they're not pricing it for profit. I'm like, you're not going to survive if you're thinking of going in with the mindset of losing money from the beginning.
James Friedrich
Yeah. Your margin is so important there and the mindset you're talking about, the fear and the entrepreneurial fear of not pricing your products high enough. There's a psychological component to us as business owners and entrepreneurs where sometimes we feel our work isn't worth the price that the market might be willing to pay for it. It's almost more about us in that sense than it is about what the market thinks.
And that's the goal of the Pricing for Profit exercise is to kind of take yourself out of the equation and look at the objective information that's available to you to make those decisions. And you may be surprised yourself about what you find when you look at it that way.
Glynis Tao
And so the goal of Pricing for Profit, it says on your website, with a properly priced product, you'll realize an increase in revenue, improved cash flow and more profit.
James Friedrich
Exactly.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So I mean, what other things would come out of pricing products properly, besides cash flow, maybe even customer retention. So I guess the question is how can a well priced product impact other areas of their business, such as cash flow and customer retention?
James Friedrich
Yeah, well, cash flow is directly tied to the product pricing and margin. And in most product businesses, your biggest expense is going to be your inventory. You're spending a lot of money to bring this inventory in. And then there's these physical products that are sitting there that can be turned into cash. And if you're not cycling that inventory over, that could be what causes the issue in your business not to succeed.
So cash is king in a product business, which is kind of the big impetus behind the Pricing for Profit is being able to properly price those products that you're maximizing your cash flow. Cause in the beginning, if you can get your products moving, your cash moving, things cycling through, that is an opportunity for you to grow your business. A business that's gaining momentum in that way, cycling through products, cycling through cash is one that in the marketplace, people are going to be seeing as something that's working, there's going to be momentum, excitement behind it. And it's just all of those things that come and help you ultimately sell more products and help your business to become more successful.
Glynis Tao
Before we wrap up, I just want to ask for entrepreneurs who are looking to prove both their pricing and profit margins. What is the key advice that you would offer based on your experience?
James Friedrich
Yeah. Well, niche and increase is kind of what I say in my head.
So niche in the sense of niche down your target, understand who you're going after. And when you've niched down your target market, there's an opportunity for you to increase your product price because you're going to understand how your product creates value for that target market. And there's going to be an opportunity for you to increase there.
I would say niche and increase are the things that kind of pop to mind.
Glynis Tao
Before we end off, mean, like, how are you going to use your experience that you gained from everything you've done so far and to now run Ambler?
James Friedrich
Yeah, well, I'm super excited. I mean, it's a full circle moment for me to be owning Ambler and ultimately my mission is to help as many entrepreneurs as possible as well as growing a successful business. And I feel so fortunate to have had all the experiences, good and bad, that I've had throughout my career, because even those times are really challenging and hard. Those are the times when you often learn the most, even though you didn't kind of feel that way, maybe at the moment. And all of that experience, I'm excited to kind of put it into practice with Ambler. And my goal is ultimately to be able to take that experience that I've had throughout my career and the experiences that I'm going to have with Ambler and be able to use those to help other people. And so that's my goal. I don't know exactly how that's all going to pan out or work yet, but that's the intention and I'm just really excited to do it.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. I mean, can you share with us some things that you're looking to do with Ambler?
James Friedrich
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of opportunities at the company. Jackie and Christian, who were the previous owners, they owned it for 15 years, did an amazing job of running and building this brand up. So my goal is to be able to just capitalize on the amazing work that they've done. And what I can see is that there's a geographic opportunity for Ambler in Eastern Canada, looking to increase our geographic presence there. There's a number of brand opportunities and some product opportunities with the company.
And so kind of exploring all those and above that, we do some amazing custom products and I'm really excited to dive into and grow that custom area of the business. So if anyone's listening to this and they're looking for small run custom headwear, come check us out at amblermountainworks.com. We have an awesome custom program and would love to help you out in making your custom hat dreams become a reality.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. And your products are made in Canada still, right?
James Friedrich
Well, everything Ambler does is either made in Canada or Fairtrade from Nepal. So it's just a super strong values based company, which aligns perfectly with me. And so, yeah, it's either Fair Trade Nepal or made in Canada. So it's awesome to be able to, you know, from a value standpoint, just work in personal alignment with those things. And I'm super excited about it.
Glynis Tao
I'm so excited for you, James, and just so happy to see how everything you've done has come together for you. And, just excited to see where this all goes.
James Friedrich
Yeah, thank you. I am too. And I appreciate being on the podcast, Glynis. I'm super appreciative of the time being able to talk to you and have this experience.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. And where could people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
James Friedrich
Yeah, for sure. So if you want to get in touch with me, you can check me out at venturingup.com. I'm also active on LinkedIn, LinkedIn James Friedrich. Friedrich is spelled fried and then rich. And check me out on LinkedIn, give me a follow, or you can also check out our products on Ambler at amblermw.com.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. And you can access James' free step-by-step email course, Pricing for Profit, through James' website, is venturingup.com. You'll be able to find it there. And I'll put a link in the description for this podcast right down below in the description area.
Thank you so much, James, for being here today and sharing your entrepreneurial experience, product and pricing expertise and insights with us today.
In this episode, Mia Umanos, CEO and founder of Clickvoyant, illustrates the transformative potential of Google Analytics 4 (GA4) for e-commerce businesses. She explains how using data-driven strategies can significantly boost revenue, and she provides concrete examples of how the approach has helped her clients make more money without increasing their ad spend.
If you're navigating the complex world of e-commerce, this conversation will open your eyes to the often untapped potential of GA4. Understand what GA4 is, what it’s used for, and whether your business is ready to hire a GA4 specialist to configure your website, interpret the data, and offer strategic recommendations that drive growth.
About Mia Umanos
Mia Umanos is the CEO and founder of Clickvoyant, an AI-powered analytics firm for e-commerce companies. She is a 15-year veteran of marketing analytics who grew her career from Junior to Director of Analytics inside Omnicom and JWT Agencies.
Mia has a talent for breaking down complex data concepts, empowering e-commerce business owners to understand their customer behavior and intent to make data-informed decisions. Her passion for analytics extends to education, where she leads workshops on Google Analytics 4 (GA4), making advanced data insights accessible to both new and seasoned entrepreneurs.
Adopt a data-driven approach to navigate growth and avoid plateauing in sales.
Invest in foundational analytics knowledge to make informed e-commerce decisions.
Use Google Analytics 4 to gain in-depth insights into customer interactions and behaviors.
Use shopper behavior data instead of gut-feeling to enhance user experience and increase conversion rates.
Track product efficiency ratios to focus on top-performing items and streamline inventory.
Prioritize optimizing existing products and website design before adding new products.
Design your website for your ideal customer.
Interview themes
What is Google Analytics 4 (GA4) and what role does it play in the sales funnel?
Google Analytics 4 (GA4) is an enterprise-grade tool that is free. It tracks shopper behavior when they are on your website. Mia explains that GA4 bridges the gap between the top and bottom of the sales funnel, focusing on insights in the middle funnel.
While GA4 can track initial traffic sources (like organic search, social media, or paid ads), it’s designed primarily for understanding user behaviors once they’re on the site. This middle-funnel focus allows brands to capture actions such as browsing product pages, adding items to carts, and navigating between categories—critical behaviors that indicate customer interest and intent.
GA4 also supports the bottom of the funnel by tracking key conversion metrics, such as purchase-to-detail rates and cart abandonment. These insights allow brands to address friction points in the checkout process and identify patterns in customer loyalty and repeat purchases. GA4’s comprehensive view of user engagement across the funnel helps e-commerce brands to increase conversions and optimize the entire customer journey.
Why is it important for e-commerce businesses to shift from gut-feeling decisions to data-driven strategies?
Mia notes that many business owners hesitate to engage deeply with analytics, feeling overwhelmed by the data. However, data can provide a clearer picture of customer behavior and site performance, enabling more informed decision-making. For example, data can reveal product efficiency ratios, shopper behavior, and engagement metrics—which help business owners determine what’s working and what’s not on their e-commerce website.
Mia believes that embracing data analytics helps businesses grow sustainably by aligning strategies with actual customer preferences and behavior rather than assumptions. This shift not only minimizes risks but also creates a foundation for scalable growth.
How can Google Analytics 4 help businesses understand customer behavior and optimize conversion rates?
GA4 captures user interactions, such as clicks, swipes, and product views, giving business owners insight into which items customers engage with most. This data can guide improvements in site structure and product pages to boost conversions. For example, understanding which products are frequently viewed but not purchased allows brands to tweak those specific pages, improving descriptions or images, to encourage a sale.
Mia stresses that GA4 is not just another dashboard, but a source of actionable insights that help optimize the user experience, directly impacting sales and growth.
What role does data analytics play in identifying and enhancing product efficiency ratios?
In GA4, the "cart-to-detail" and "purchase-to-detail" metrics provide insights that can be indirectly related to a product efficiency ratio by showing how efficiently products move through the sales funnel from viewing to purchasing. Mia often looks at the “cart-to-detail” and the “purchase-to-detail” to see how many shoppers view a product and proceed to add it to their cart or complete a purchase. If a product has high views but low add-to-cart rates, there may be issues with the product itself or how it’s presented on the page.
This data helps e-commerce brands understand which items are truly performing well, so they don’t waste resources on producing items that don’t sell. Focusing on these ratios allows businesses to avoid the common mistake of simply adding more products to drive revenue, instead enhancing what’s already working.
How can adjusting navigation elements on a website influence customer shopping behavior and average order value?
Mia shared a powerful example of how a small change in website navigation led to a significant increase in average order value. For a luxury brand, Mia’s team removed the “Sale” option from the top-level navigation, replacing it with “Just In.” This stopped customers from seeking out sales immediately and instead directed them to the latest, high-ticket inventory. The result? The average order value increased from $300 to $750 within 45 days—without any additional advertising spend.
By strategically adjusting navigation, e-commerce brands can influence where customers focus their attention, encouraging them to explore full-priced, higher-value items rather than defaulting to discounts.
Through data-driven insights, e-commerce brands can create a personalized experience that aligns with the expectations and motivations of their core customer base, ultimately enhancing user engagement and conversions.
Why and when would an e-commerce business hire a GA4 specialist?
Hiring a GA4 data analyst brings expertise in setting up, interpreting, and acting on data in ways that maximize the tool’s potential. This professional guidance helps e-commerce brands make more informed decisions that align with their growth goals, using data beyond what a standard GA4 setup would provide.
Investing in GA4 entails a few critical steps and resources to fully leverage its capabilities for e-commerce. First, while GA4 is a free tool, integrating it to capture detailed shopper behavior requires a setup beyond simply installing a pixel or a basic Shopify integration. This setup might include configuring the "data layer," a technical component that gathers metadata about shopper actions like product views, add-to-cart actions, and purchase flows.
According to Mia, for many e-commerce brands, the initial setup can range from a $2,000 to $10,000 investment, depending on the complexity of the website and the level of detail desired in tracking. More extensive analytics services for businesses ready to optimize conversion rates scientifically could go up to $6,000 per month.
The benefit of this upfront cost is that it provides a foundation for ongoing insights and adjustments to the site, making it a cost-effective long-term investment compared to monthly fees for other analytics tools that may not offer as robust or tailored a dataset as GA4.
At what point should an e-commerce business invest in using GA4 to drive more revenue?
Mia advises that businesses should focus on using GA4 when they have moved past the initial stages of e-commerce growth and are beginning to see steady website traffic and sales. Specifically, when an e-commerce brand is generating consistent revenue and has around 500 to 1,000 monthly visitors, GA4 can provide valuable insights to help understand shopper behavior and optimize the site for conversions.
This stage is also when businesses often see customer acquisition costs rise, revenue growth plateau, and return on ad spend (ROAS) begin to dip—indicators that a deeper understanding of user behavior is needed to drive further growth.
For businesses that are pre-revenue or just starting, Mia suggests holding off on extensive analytics investments until there is sufficient data to analyze.
Chapters
00:00 Transforming E-commerce with Data-Driven Decisions
07:13 Understanding Google Analytics 4: A Game Changer
14:01 Leveraging User Behavior for Business Growth
20:58 The Power of Product Efficiency Ratios
27:47 Building a Data-Driven E-commerce Strategy
34:56 Navigating GA4: Simplifying Data Analysis
41:56 The Importance of Data Architecture and Layering
Transcript
Glynis Tao
Hey, fashion entrepreneur, are you basing your business decisions on gut feeling versus using real data? Well, it's time to get over your arithmophobia. That's fear of numbers. I have GA4 expert Mia Umanos here with me today to help you feel more comfortable and confident using Google Analytics 4 for your e-commerce business.
Mia Umanos is a 15 year veteran of marketing analytics who grew her career from Junior to Director of Analytics inside Omnicom and JWT agencies. Her talent for balancing math and human empathy turns her projects into gold. She lifted revenue up $4 million in 90 days through conversion rate optimization, created a sustained 40% increase in ad revenue for a major publisher, and won a Google News Initiative data grant for a Nobel Peace Prize winner. She now leads Clickvoyant, an AI-powered analytics firm for e-commerce companies.
Please join me in welcoming my guest, Clickvoyant CEO and pioneer in using Google Analytics for sharper insight, Mia Umanos. Welcome, Mia. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Mia Umanos
Of course, thank you for inviting me, Glynis. I really appreciate the invite.
Glynis Tao
Yes, absolutely. I'm happy to have you here. We had met through a mutual friend, Carol Shih of Qode Space, whom I had interviewed in a previous episode talking about the importance of community to overcome entrepreneurial challenges. So how did you first meet Carol?
Mia Umanos
Well, we were actually in San Diego at an event for female founders and I was pitching Clickvoyant artificial intelligence on stage and Carol immediately found me and was like, I work with hundreds of e-commerce companies. They all need this. Who are you? Let's be friends. And we proceeded to be inseparable the entire conference.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Yeah my first impression of Carol was that she was just a very friendly, approachable person.
Mia Umanos
Yeah. And hilarious. Just I can't stop laughing when we're together.
Glynis Tao
That's so great. So Qode Space is also a partner agency with Clickvoyant, right? Can you tell us a bit about that and how you work together?
Mia Umanos
Yes. So Clickvoyant is an analytics only agency. All we do is data analysis for e-commerce companies. And so a lot of times Carol will refer to us analytics and the development as the plumbing of all e-commerce shopping, which is that we're kind of, you know, chummy because a lot of times it's the last thing that merchants and designers think about when, you know, you're very busy thinking about the business, the lines, planning the logistics, sourcing materials, all of this stuff.
And when it comes to this underbelly of code that lives, it's often because you can't see it or touch it, the last thing to think about. And yet the entire business is dependent on what we do. And so we feel like, you know, the invisible superheroes of e-commerce because if none of it works, the data nor the development, then all of the, you know, line planning products, it's for not.
So that's how we work together. And she's the CEO of a company which does the code for Shopify stores. And I am the CEO of a company that does the analytics for Shopify stores.
Glynis Tao
Okay. That's great. Thanks for explaining that. So what made you decide to become a data analyst and like, how did you first get into this industry?
Mia Umanos
Well, I mean, the first getting into this industry was actually the bio is a little old. It was almost 20 years ago. So I first got into the industry around the time that MySpace was the primary social media platform to talk about. So it was a long while ago. And I think that my path begins really in journalism school.
I wanted to be a science journalist. And what I really liked about that was, I like to write and I like to distill complex concepts into something that is more palatable for the layperson to understand. So I like to do the digging to figure out what is mathematically, scientifically going on and what's in the soup so that I can level up and tell the story about how it all works to the people who need to know about it.
And so my transition from broke journalist into data analyst was very natural because I could take the data from these websites and explain how behaviors are being impacted. And people understood it. Not a lot of data people can do that. If you've ever worked with any data people, lots of times you're opening up these different dashboards that you have access to and your eyes kind of gloss over and you just want to put it down. So I like to be the person to say, well, magically, here's what it says.
Glynis Tao
Right. So we're covering a big topic today and that's Google Analytics 4. So I just want to jump right into it. We'll be focusing on using GA4 for e-commerce sites as our listeners are mostly e-commerce store owners.
For those unfamiliar with GA4, can you explain some of the key differences between GA4 and Universal Analytics?
Mia Umanos
Sure. Well, I think I might start a little bit further back and say, you know, in the world of e-commerce, there's usually three things that you need to look at the data to know if your business is healthy or unhealthy. And the first part is some kind of paid media dashboard. So if you're at the point where you can start spending money to try to get people to your store, then you're going to want to know how much are you spending? What is your return on ad spend? Like how many dollars do you get for every dollar that you spend? And you're going to want to see the revenue at the end of that. So the revenue is usually something that you get from a Shopify or maybe some of you are in commerce even or big commerce, but that's data on the backend. It's like what comes out, what products are being sold? What is the margin? What coupons were being generated or used? And that's what we call marketing upper funnel data as the ads and then the lowest part of the funnel, which is what is happening on the checkout.
But what is missing between those two is your middle part is like, what are people doing actually in the store itself? So all of the ways that we're comporting ourselves, like we’re making the sale, we're showing the slide, we're showing the season, that's merchandising. And the merchandising you know why your grocery store gives you that tag, right? They want to know where you go. They want to know what you're picking up, what you're putting back, because they study your behaviors to see like, well, what do you want to buy? What are you considering and what do you want to buy? Not many merchants fill in that gap, but that's where Google Analytics comes in.
So Google Analytics is the place where you get all of your e-commerce website data, but it's not out of the box. And that's one of the real differences between Google Analytics Universal, which some people might know as the old Google Analytics. I actually know it as the second Google Analytics, because I've been doing this a long time. There used to be a method of tracking data and a data architecture, which is kind of a big vocabulary word, but data architecture used to be just how do we access the data and how do we store it.
So the data architecture of Google used to be on a thing called Urchin. Then it moved to a thing called Universal Analytics. And now it's moved to a thing called Google Analytics 4. And Google Analytics 4 is free. Google has always been free. But what Google Analytics 4 is is an enterprise-grade tool for free. So that just means that there's a lot more that you have to do to get the data in there than just
put on a pixel on Shopify or turn on the Shopify integration and I'm done. There's a lot more to get that shopper behavior clicks and swipes and gallery views. So, you when I say a lot more, I'm talking, okay, this can be anywhere from a $2,000 to a $5,000 to a $10,000 investment, depending on how big your site is and how complex it is. So when we're talking about a $2,000 investment to get this information inside Google Analytics, let's compare that to what sometimes companies of like a larger size are paying, a Triple Whale who has many clients who are under one million in annual revenue, charges seven, minimum $700 a month.
So if you think about these other tools here that are $700 a month, you make a $2,000 investment over the long term, your $2,000 investment upfront will give you data forever for free. I mean, forever is a superlative. But I'm being fantastic to make a point. So that's it. Google analytics is enterprise grade. It takes a little bit more muscle to get that shopper information in there. But when it's in there, you can use this free tool forever more to learn about how people shop. In your store, what do they look at? What do they put back? Cause that's not data that's in either of the other platforms.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So the Google Analytics 4’s job primary function is to serve like the user behavior, right? It's to give you that data?
Mia Umanos
That's how I liken it. I mean, there are stages, honestly, Glenis, of analytics maturity. So in the stage where you have, you know, you're doing a data analysis and you're subscribing to a Triple Whale to $700, you're probably past a couple thresholds.
In the very beginning, Google Analytics can actually function as the only tool, right? Or that plus Shopify. So it's like, I've got, there is a component of Google Analytics that will allow you to do paid media, ROAS analysis, how are these channels performing? And when a company matures, there are some limitations to those reporting that.
Basically if you've passed a certain amount of spend that you're going to want a bigger gun, guess that'd be a bad analogy, but you know, so there are stages of knowing when to invest in analytics. Google analytics can do a lot of these things. Think revenue items sold forever should always come out of Shopify, like the most direct data point that should come out of Shopify. But anything beyond that, like, okay what are the campaigns? Google tracks that too. How much are we spending? If it's in Google ads, you can track that too.
Google analytics can also take your spend from your other platforms, Pinterest or TikTok and put it into there. And then you can see how your campaigns are performing. So it can do a lot of things. Is that a nebulous answer?
Glynis Tao
Scratch the surface right now or even like what it's capable of doing. Level of knowledge, would just say I, you know, it's the tip of the iceberg. I don’t know that much about it's full capabilities of what it can do. And it can be a very powerful tool if you know how to use it properly. And I think that's kind of the challenge that a lot of business owners have is they don't even know where to start to look.
Mia Umanos
Sure. And I mean, this is why I love talking about this to merchants and even startup founders, like I do a lot of, you know, webinars speaking, do the class, obviously I have it. I digitized that clash just last week, so it could be on demand anytime. So if anybody wants to use that class, the coupon code is girlboss and you can get in there for $7. At the end of the day, Glynis, like we talk about when a data driven company and the education that I do for these, we were talking about some big brands are not even using it in the way that I use it.
So I'll give you an example of how helpful this actually is. One company apparel, you know, when you're making apparel, dresses are always like number one. I feel like it's like dresses are so number one, lot of the time, unless you're like jeans, right? This company, a big company, was only using these products that I was telling you, like they have a Triple Whale, they're looking at Shopify. After the class, they said, I think we realized that we were just looking at dashboards and then going about our business. We weren't really thinking about shopper behavior in any way, and we weren't really changing any of our strategies as a result.
So in this instance, what we saw were people because we implemented for them all of these user experience, navigation, merchandising variables. And then they could see people who were shopping on sale and clicking there actually had an average order value of half the average order value for the whole site. And it was in their top level navigation. So you get into the site, some of these sites before and you could see Sale like, you know, if you're Forever 21, that probably makes sense. But if you're a luxury brand, why would we be putting Sale at the very top level navigation?
So we took that out. This is a luxury brand. We took it out of the navigation. We stopped training people to shop for sales and their average order value went from $300 to 750 in 45 days. No more ad spend. So, right? Like that's basically doubling the revenue without spending any more on ads with one small thing that we don't even think about.
Glynis Tao
That is incredible. And they wouldn't even have known that, I guess, if you hadn't come in to take a look at the data in terms of what people are clicking on, right?
Mia Umanos
Right. Because it was just like, you know, if we do a sale and this is very, I think, you know, fashion stores are very like... And I think that there is a true need for a sale, but I think that sales should be strategic pillars and a revenue model versus desperation. Right. Or as like, you know, it's you're training people to shop for sale when they're going on your site, what are they looking at? Top level navigation. So it's Dresses, Tops, Just In. So we actually replaced it, we didn't just take it out but we replaced the word sale from the top level navigation with Just In. So we're training you to come to shop for our high ticket, most recent inventory, and for you to want the latest from us, not to come here and shop for whatever's discounted. I mean, I myself do that. I'm an immigrant's daughter. I'm very motivated by getting it for 75 % off. That to me is a badge. But you know in some instances it doesn't matter. So when you're like, when you're changing your website and you're making these design choices, you're making the design choices for your best customer.
Glynis Tao
And that's where the data starts to lead you. like, the other thing is like we had another swimwear company come to us and say, we've been around for 10 years. We do not know. We knew who we started out with and we don't know who our customer is now. Like we started out with this like surfers, we're surfer girls making the swimwear brand for surfers and outdoor women. And then 10 years later, after so many Wunderkind apps and so many things and you're like, who are we attracting? We have no idea because the algorithms, the ads are just sending your, it's an algorithm, sending people your ad and then people are buying and you don't know who they are. So that's why it's critical to have the behavior, because the behavior starts to signal affinities for certain products, price ranges and so forth.
Glynis Tao
Okay. It's so powerful. Just this example that you've given me, you know, by removing the sale banner off, how it just increased your average order from 300 to 750 instead of like making it a sale right off the bat on the top. People just go on and click on that. Right. And then that's what they're trained to do. But if you actually switch it out and I guess you're using that data to understand like, okay, what types of things are people looking or looking on, I guess, when people land on the site? And then understand and then change that out to your new products, right? Is that what you changed the banner from the sale to new or just in? Is that what you ended up doing?
Mia Umanos
Right. It wasn't technically a banner. There were no banners on this particular site because it's luxury, you know. And so it was in the navigation. Like when you go and you first go to a website and you see, all in the navigation, it was at the top. And so they switched that out with new, just in, just in or new arrivals, new lines. And then somebody you train them to, to look there. And, know, I mean, people who are sales motivated are also good customers. And we, and they will find it. They will find the sale. And this is the thing that we, this is what data does.
When you get shopper behavior, it starts to elevate the different stories of who she is. Who is she? Who is this kind of shopper? How do I need to comport this page for her? You know, the wedding dress shopper, what is she like? The event, the occasion shopper, what does she care about? Or the price sensitive shopper, what does she care about? And you can make these different featured edits to comport, to call to them and be more empathetic to like comport your pages and your store to be more empathetic to that person. And that's the power of digital that you could never do in a department, right? Or, you know, everything is like the best line. If you walk into in-store, it's like just whatever we think is the most stylish thing.
But on digital, you can really start to comport the merchandising to the motivation of that person who's there that day. And it's just by creating these trails and on a homepage, you know, here's this for you, right? Or there's a navigation that's clue one. Where am I going? Mia is going to go to sales. Mia is going to go to clearance, right? But somebody else might go, I'm a lover of this brand. I want to see what's the new line. They're going to click there. So you find these like different clues on the homepage. There's a lot of things there as well.
I mean, we, you know, people like carefully, artfully craft home pages. And sometimes they don't realize some of the things that they might be doing to basically change behavior when you're creating all of these things. So here's another example. Some of the things that we're discovering about the behavior data in a merchandise store is like, you see this all the time, Shopify home hero, then some headline and then some triptych. Right? It's like.
Glynis Tao
And a triptych is three images, right?
Mia Umanos
Yes. When we see three images across, we often see the most clicks in the middle.
And if you see two, a diptych, two images across, we see fewer clicks to something like that. So, and this is just a hypothesis, but it's like, the data is going to tell you one thing and then what you decide about how shoppers behave is another. So what I'm going to say to you is my hypothesis. I see the data. I'm making a hypothesis. My hypothesis is that a triptych allows for an eye to be drawn somewhere in the middle. Humans see with their brain, not with their eyes. So it's taking shortcuts. the one in the middle, right? I don't know which one to pick. I'm going to click the one in the middle. When there's a diptych, it's often used as a comparison. It's like there's, these two are equal. If they're both equal, neither of them are important. So these are the hypotheses that I start to think of.
You know, I'm, I'm, I might, I might be a data person, but I am at the root, just interested in people. I'm interested in people. I'm interested in behaviors. This is why I wanted to be a science journalist at the beginning. Like I'm most interested in why they do that? That's so interesting. So when I say, you know, data and scientific method, they're very intertwined. And so I'm always like, very, very obsessed about the shopper behavior, why they are clicking on things that they're doing. And you know, can I help get them to the places that they actually want to go?
So that's why, you know, when people take a look at what I put in Google Analytics, they're like, holy crap. This is a lot of stuff.
Glynis Tao
So they may not necessarily need to be tracking all that stuff. Is that what you're saying?
Mia Umanos
No, I'm saying that most companies don't, that they don't track all that stuff. Our clients do this because they now have seen the power of like, well, when I understand how shoppers behave, now I can change my site according to what is converting better, which leads to a transaction.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So what do you start with first, like maybe kind of walk us through your process a little bit when somebody comes to you, right? When they come to the store and they're like, I'm, what's the number one problem that people have?
Mia Umanos
Yeah. So, this is great. Actually the number one problem, the real trigger to become a Clickvoyant client is that a company can get to a million dollars in annual revenue just by slugging it out and dragging through the mud and sleepless nights. It can get to a million in a year it can, but it doesn't have to.
Getting to a million dollars in annual revenue and now you're spending ads, what's happening with the companies that come to me is like, Mia, we've been doing it like this forever. And now our growth is plateaued. We're flatlining. And not only are we flatlining on revenue, we're also increasing the cost per customer acquisition. And our ROAS is going down. Like a ROAS, when we started this company, it was like a four a five and now we're at like a two. It's terrible. Like we're barely breaking even. Right. And so they come to me and it's like, well, I have these two pieces. I got Shopify, I have Triple Whale. I have an upper funnel and a bottom of the funnel. I have nowhere else to go, but now start looking at my site.
But the companies who look at their site and are obsessed with shopper behavior from the very beginning, they're not going to have to go through that pain. Right. Again, like for a small company, like a $2,000 investment. Lord knows you're spending way more on other things, right? It's like, okay, I'm getting the data. I can understand how shoppers behave. I see what they add to cart. I mean, it's probably not appropriate if it's like a pre-revenue company, obviously. But when you start to get to a place where like, all right, I've got like a thousand visitors a month, you know, I've got a thousand people looking here a month. Like, why aren't they buying? That's enough data. Or even like five or 600 people a month. It's enough to start looking at.
Why aren't they buying? Why are they buying? And how do I comport the site design to make sure that it's easy for them to navigate, easy for them to understand why I'm the one that they want to buy from.
I mean, it is like a little bit of an easy process, maybe it's easy to me, but I know that you just took the course, so maybe you have a different opinion. But it's like looking at all of the things that we have, like all the plugins, the wunderkind, the quizzes, all these things, the size function, like accordions on a product, you tell the page and look and see it. Do you have that data? And if you don't, those are usually the places that we start.
It's like navigation. What are people doing in a product detail page? Where is the add to cart coming from? Is it from an upsell widget? Is it from a rebuy app? Is it bundling upselling like versus let's put in those data points. And when that doesn't become enough, you add more. So you're enriching the data as you're maturing your business.
Glynis Tao
Okay. I think one of the things that stuck with me, I remember the first time I took the course and you telling me the story about how a lot of companies think they want to increase revenue. So the first thing they do is, you know, adding more products. Right. But how you able to look, you know, kind of dig in deep and see, understand the customer behavior and help them to increase their average order value, increase sales in turn without even having to, you know, add more products, that sort of thing.
Mia Umanos
Yeah. I mean, I think it's like when you're a business and you want to grow, you're going to grow in the ways that you know what to do. So I know that when I make a product, people buy product. Right. And so I think that that can be one of these ways that, you know, most companies who are just maturing to understand analysis and their data. I mean, before they get to that stage, they'll just say, yeah, let's release more things and then product will start churning out. I mean, the real root of true business growth in an e-commerce setting is to understand your customer acquisition cost, your new customer, basically your customer acquisition cost, the product efficiency, meaning, of these products, what are my favorite metrics to look at? So we should get into that. My favorite metrics to look at are like a cart to detail and a purchase to detail rate. Those are the percentage of people who view a product or the percentage of people who add to cart or a percentage of people who purchase a product over the total amount of times that that product was viewed. So if you've got a high view and a low add to cart rate, it's either the product or the page that's not doing it. But what we like to see, if there's like an add to cart rate on all these pages or a purchase to, a good metric to get to is a 6% view, like a purchase to view rate.
If you get, if 6% of views end up in a purchase, it's a pretty good marker. If you're below that, I'd be concerned about that product. So a lot of companies don't know how to look at their product efficiency ratios on a site. Some of them are like, I've never even heard of this, even mature businesses. So if a business that's starting out, like a lot of your audience is like, okay, this is a metric I need to pay attention to. How much does it cost to pay, you know, how much does it cost to get a customer and what is my product efficiency ratio?
Because I'll tell you, we do a lot of analysis on here's all the revenue that you're creating and here, a lot of times, a metric that I see a lot is 98% of your revenue was generated by 5% of products. Think about that. Almost 100% of your revenue is generated by 5% of your SKUs.
Like think about all the churn expense overhead to make those other 95 products. Right. I mean, we're not all Forever 21. We can't just churn out garbage, right? Like we can't do that as a business. We have to pick. And so when we like, I think that the more merchants know and startup companies, anybody, whatever you're selling, start to look at product efficiency ratios.
Like if you say, okay, this is going to set me free from having to just churn out products. There are other ways to grow my business.
Glynis Tao
Okay, so just to emphasize what we just talked about is an important metric to look at would be the product efficiency rate, which is something that I just, I don't hear about that often. I'm not sure if many people even know about it. I mean, is that what you come across with a lot of people? Don't even know about this? I guess it's like average order value, you know, customer acquisition, you hear conversions.
Mia Umanos
It's really not known. Actually I was just talking to another client of mine, a jewelry company, and she said, Mia, you really need to go out there and start talking to some of these accelerators for e-commerce accelerators, because we went through product, logistics, line, business model. There was nothing about a DTC analytic strategy.
A DTC analytics strategy in e-commerce startup accelerators. I was like, what the heck? That's insane. So I mean, that's why I'm out here now. I'm like, I'm going hard on content because she told me that literally over like a week ago. And I'm like, okay, I'm on a mission now. Like if that's true, you just went through a startup accelerator hosted by a very well known e-commerce startup accelerator and you did not have any analytics training, then I'm going to die on that hill. I don't care. That's my new thing. I'm going to die on that hill because there's so many great brands, right? So many. And like I'm particularly fond of female run startups. It will always be, I mean, I will always make myself available. I am a female founder myself. So I know how hard it is.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I mean, they've got a million things going, right? They're juggling a lot and, you know, wearing a lot of hats and they're probably not focusing like, or even know, you know, they don't know what they don't know, right? So I think it's just having that awareness, first of all, which is what you're doing. But there's so many things that are taking away their attention, right? What they think they should be focusing on. You know, I think it's like social media is a big one. They think that they should be doing, spending their time on, but not really looking at a lot of the numbers. I find that that's what they're not looking at. And I think it's maybe because, you know, if they are even able to have the data, get the data, but they won't know what to do with it.
So what advice would you give to businesses that are starting out with GA4, or they feel overwhelmed by the data? How can GA4 be able to help them simplify and streamline the process of identifying meaningful trends and the data and that sort of thing?
Mia Umanos
Yeah, I mean, I would say like thing number one is like if you have really expensive tools that you're spending money on, to just stop that right away and start looking at Google Analytics because you're not mature enough for a $700 a month tool. It's like, and Lord knows you can't burn through cash, right? You cannot burn through cash. if you're spending, so that's like thing one, don't just go and start to like spend a ton of money on a tool that you're going to ignore. Cause frankly, that's what happens a lot. $100 a month is a lot of money.
So the second thing that I would say is take the GA4 class, wake up, get a grip on it. It's easy to take. I'm easy to talk to. The concepts are hard. But I mean, you say to me like, what did you get out of it? Like, if you get nothing but a better understanding of what it's for, I've done my job.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that's what I would say. I got out of that, your course and the course we're referring to is your four-day GA4 boot camp, which was amazing. I mean, you know, I wouldn't say I'm like an expert, a GA4, I'm not even close to that, right? Like I understand a bit, I use it as a tool and I do SEO, but you know, like I just know the basic basics really, but I think your course really just opened my eyes to what is possible out there and I feel like I know a little bit more about it now.
And at least that's sort of now on my radar, right? When I'm talking to clients and stuff and hearing about like certain problems that they're having with their websites, maybe not performing or whatever, you know, they're not hitting their goals and, OK, then I could perhaps prescribe something to help them do that or to an expert like you, if they want more help with it or something like that, at least I know about it.
Mia Umanos
Yeah, absolutely. I think getting it on the radar the most is like step one, know that it's there, know what it's for. It's for website shopping behavior. If you're having a problem there, you've got that in your bookmark. Right. And then I think the next thing is, you know, like taking the course is helpful, but as well, like take it in little bites, like don't try to, you know, boil the ocean.
Just like if you're thinking about, okay an add to cart rate or Google Analytics called the cart to detail and the purchase to detail. Those two metrics and you're looking by product, it's going to help you understand what products are performing and what ones aren’t performing so good. And again, if they're not performing good in those two metrics, it's either the product or the page. So you get two things like one thing you could change easily, which is the page and experiment there. And if that doesn't work, then you know it's a product. Put that thing on sale. And move on.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And don't wait too long to do that. Yeah.
Mia Umanos
Right. Absolutely. Yes.
Glynis Tao
It'll move fast enough, I think, and sit on it, hoping that, OK, maybe it will pick up or something. And then maybe they just lost that opportunity or something where they moved it a lot faster.
I know we're sort of running out of time, but there's some terminology I just want to cover when it comes to analytics and the two words that come up a lot often. In your course, you mentioned data architecture and layering.
Can you just please explain what those two things are?
Mia Umanos
Yeah, absolutely. So data architecture just refers to the structure of how the data is built in Google Analytics. So basically, Google Analytics, a lot of people turn it on and they put on the Shopify integration go, this isn't very helpful at all. And it's because they haven't put all the shopper data in there. Now, when you put the shopper data in there, there are some considerations for how you're going to get it out, which is, okay, I can do a CTA click, but I also want to know what that was, what it was, what did it say? Did it say shopped now? Did it say shop the season? What did it say? You want to know, because you want to know how you're talking to your customers.
So the data architecture is of all the things that we want to track. Where do I put it? It's like organizing a garage or organizing your kitchen drawers or your pantry. It's like, okay, well, you know, anything that's a button click is going to go here and it's going to go to things that are the add to cart type is going to go here. So are they POS? Are they user experiences? Is it messaging? That's what we refer to it with data architecture. The way that it's going to be familiar to most of your listeners is like, well, when you're deciding on the navigation, you're deciding on the architecture of a website. So it's going to be dresses. And then within dresses, it's going to be petites and regular or whatever, right? In pants, it's going to be jeans. It's going to be, that's also a data architecture, your navigation. So your data architecture is really just the way in which we structure the information so that people can access it. And your website navigation, that's your data architecture for how your customers can access your products.
In GA, the data architecture is referring to how are you or your marketing people going to access the information of every click and swipe that happens in the store.
Now, the second piece, which is the data layer, the data layer is a bit of code, actually, that lives on your site. It doesn't have anything to do with the front end, but it's all these little pieces that live in the code that is exchanging between Shopify, Google Analytics, and your ad platforms.
So for example, in the data layer, there'll be things that when you're looking at a product detail page, inside the data layer will be things like product name, red dress, product category, dress. The name might be something snazier like Alyssa, the Alyssa, right? That's your product name. The category is dress. The item category two might Fall 2024 line. So there's this, it's the metadata that is passing so that other places can pick it up. That's the easiest way that I can think about it, like these secret messages that you're putting into your data that nobody's really seeing, but that allows you to know that when that product, the Alyssa dress goes from cart to view or viewing to a cart to a checkout, that all that metadata is passing so that you can do that analysis later and say, Hey, everything from season 2024, fall 2024, is tanking as a bad product efficiency. We had a bad line planner that season. So that's what those two are about.
Glynis Tao
Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense now. When you're speaking meta tags and that's totally, you're speaking my language. Yeah SEO, we do look at site structure as part of the technical SEO checks that we do. Right. Making sure things are categorized properly, put in the proper collections folders, right? And products are named properly. And then I look into your URL structures and all that stuff as well, because it tells search engines what the product is.
So I think the same goes with Google. Well, it's, yeah, the same search engine that we're using. The better you're able to categorize, organize things on your website, not only does it make a better user experience for your customers, it also helps with Google.
Mia Umanos
Sure. And I mean, at the end of the day, there's like a data analyst human, and then there's the data analysis algorithms and we need the data to be in a certain structure to be able to do our jobs. So that's why if you have a bad structure, it's hard to show up. And as well, if you have a bad structure, it's hard to analyze shopper preferences because it's the same outcome, different products. But that's what metadata really, yeah, that data layer is the metadata on products and shopper experience that we need.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. And so before we wrap up here, what size businesses do usually work with? You had mentioned some costs here in terms of like a $2,000 investment. Is that generally how it works? Like you have a package or like how can somebody get started if they want help from you?
Mia Umanos
Yeah, I mean, definitely not pre-revenue. I'm happy to get anybody into the classes. I think when a company is starting to generate revenue and they really want to start, they want to make all the right moves and they don't want to make any mistakes and they want to be data driven and not product driven.
Actually a CFO of an e-commerce company told me recently this week, she said, well, a lot of these e-commerce companies are either building a business or they're building a brand. And one of the other two is neglected often. And a lot of times in the beginning, you're building a brand. You're like, I just want people to know who I am. Right. But to build a business you really need to be data driven. So if you're in a stage where you're building a business and you bought into that, then in the beginning, we start at $750 a month to help with support as a retainer.
We also scaled to $2,000 a month for deeper services. And we also do conversion reoptimization where we're actually scientifically testing websites. And that starts at $6,000 a month. So, you know, not for beginning, really beginning companies, but for companies who are you know, at the stages where we really don't want to make too many mistakes. If you want to take an engineering approach to our business, we're building a business. We're not just building a brand. If you're in that mindset, then it makes sense.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. So I know we just really scratched the surface of what GA4 can do. And really for a deeper dive, I recommend you take Mia's four-day GA4 bootcamp.
Mia Umanos
It's just an hour a day too. It's not like four days. It's an hour a day.
Glynis Tao
It's an hour a day over four days. But you'll learn how to harness the full potential of Google Analytics 4 to drive better business decisions.
Do you know when your next workshop is going to be?
Mia Umanos
Yes, it's November 18th. So Monday, November 18th to Thursday, November 22.
Okay, amazing. And maybe you can provide a link where people can sign up for that. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Mia Umanos
Well, strangely, I'm the only Mia Umanos in all of the internet. I don't know how that happened, but I am the one.
So you can search for me. You can find me on LinkedIn, but my email address is mia@clickvoyant.com. I have an open door like most founders. I have a very soft spot for you.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Well, thank you so much Mia for being here today and sharing your expert insights with GA4 and data analysis with us.
In this episode, RozeMerie Cuevas, fashion designer and founder of Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir, shares her experience and lessons learned from over three decades in the industry. From her first fashion show debut at a nightclub in Vancouver at age 18, to establishing her Vancouver-based brand in 1986 with just a small tight knit team, to eventually expanding into the Chinese market in 2013—RozeMerie credits teamwork, adaptability, and a tremendous amount of hands-on effort to make it all possible.
If you’re a fashion entrepreneur, this conversation will inspire you as you hear RozeMerie’s sound advice on how to create long-term success by building a strong brand DNA and making smart operational decisions.
About RozeMerie Cuevas
RozeMerie Cuevas is an icon in the Canadian fashion industry as the designer and founder behind two Canadian brands, Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir. Growing up, RozeMerie spent her teenage years sewing clothes for herself and for her friends but didn’t consider pursuing a career in fashion. She never thought of herself as a “designer”, but after her first fashion show at age 18 that impressed the attendees—RozeMerie realized that for her, being a fashion designer was possible and that she should go for it! Studying economics and commerce at the time, she decided to change course and apply for fashion school. Soon after, she packed her bags to attend the prestigious ESMOD School of Fashion in Paris.
Upon her return to Vancouver, RozeMerie created the women’s fashion brand, Jacqueline Conoir—the name in honor of her late mother. Over an impressive 36 year career, she has not only created and run successful brands but also received numerous design and influential women in business and business innovator awards in Canada.
In 2013, RozeMerie expanded into the Chinese market after a serendipitous meeting with a Chinese brand developer. That new partnership led to rapidly growing JAC to 100 stores in major cities in China within three years. By 2021, JAC further solidified its position by welcoming the founder of the Alfini Group as a key shareholder, enhancing its management, development, and operations. This strategic move aims to establish JAC as a leading international designer brand.
Establish a strong brand DNA to make yourself identifiable.
Create engaging experiences for your customers to create a strong customer base.
Respect and adapt to different cultures and business customs when entering new markets.
Focus on taking one step at a time when building and expanding a brand.
Empower your team and lead by example.
Interview themes
What does it mean to have a strong brand DNA, and what are the benefits?
A strong brand DNA means having a distinct identity that resonates deeply with your target audience and consistently reflects the core values and mission of the brand. For RozeMerie, the brand DNA of Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir is centered around empowering women to feel confident and capable in any situation throughout their career journeys. This is reflected not only in the clothing designs, which are meant to make women feel strong and noticeable, but also in the stories of customers who have worn the brand throughout their careers, using it as a tool to project success and confidence.
Additionally, the Jacqueline Conoir brand DNA involves a commitment to high quality and a unique style that stands out, which has allowed it to build a loyal customer base. The consistency in these elements—empowerment, quality, and distinctiveness—has been key to establishing and sustaining the brand’s identity in a competitive market.
How does teamwork help a fashion brand succeed?
RozeMerie believes that no one can achieve greatness alone, and she has always prioritized building a strong, collaborative team. Stating that “without your team, you’re nothing,” she advises brand owners to lead by example while empowering their team to take initiative and contribute their best. RozeMerie’s approach to teamwork has created a sense of ownership and pride amongst its members, contributing to sustained growth and the ability to navigate challenges.
How to ensure brand consistency and quality when expanding rapidly in a global market?
Ensuring brand consistency in a new market requires a lot of training and communication. When JAC expanded in China, RozeMerie Cuevas took a hands-on approach to training her team. She was deeply involved in the process, personally overseeing the education of her staff on the brand’s DNA, quality standards, and customer interactions. RozeMerie relied heavily on visual and practical demonstrations, using fashion shows and store presentations to clearly communicate the brand’s identity. She attended store openings across China, to make sure that each launch reflected the brand. Through this meticulous and culturally aware approach, she was able to maintain a consistent and memorable brand experience across all JAC stores in China.
How do adaptability and cultural awareness drive international success?
In order to thrive in a new global market, entrepreneurs must understand the business customs and respect the culture. For example, in the fast-paced business landscape of China, decisions are implemented rapidly. RozeMerie learned that she had to make quick decisions, but with much careful consideration prior to communicating them out loud. In regards to culture, when introducing her brand to the Chinese market, RozeMerie quickly realized that while still staying true to her brand DNA, she had to make small adjustments to her designs, such as raising necklines, in order to appeal to her Chinese customers. Her openness to adapt and learn from her team in China allowed for a positive reception of her brand and fueled its expansion—establishing over 100 stores across major cities in just a few years.
Why must creative entrepreneurs understand the business side of running the brand?
Even if your aim is to focus on the design side, in order to be a successful creative entrepreneur, you need sufficient business knowledge to create long-term success. In the early stages of her career, she made mistakes in budgeting and inventory management, such as spending too much on certain materials or not controlling inventory effectively. She advises young designers who want to focus primarily on the design side of the business to educate themselves in business. Even if a designer wants to partner with someone to handle the business side, they should still have an understanding of basic finance and operations to avoid the common pitfalls of running a creative venture.
Chapters
05:25 The Origins of Jacqueline Conoir and the Brand's Unique Vision
11:54 Challenges Faced in the Early Days and Overcoming Them
21:55 Scaling the Business: Expanding into the Chinese Market
39:13 Advice for Aspiring Fashion Entrepreneurs: Building a Global Brand
Transcript
Glynis Tao
Today I have the pleasure of hosting an extraordinary guest. RozeMerie Cuevas is a true icon in the Canadian fashion industry. RozeMerie is the designer and founder behind two Canadian brands, Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir.
RozeMerie's fashion journey began in Paris, France, where she studied design and pattern making at the prestigious ESMOD School of Fashion. Over an impressive 36 year career, she has not only built iconic brands but also received numerous design influential women in business and business innovator awards in Canada.
In 2013 RozeMerie's vision took a global turn when she ventured into the Chinese market. A serendipitous meeting with a Chinese brand developer led to a groundbreaking partnership catapulting the JAC brand into China.
Within just three years, JAC expanded to 100 stores in AAA department stores across major cities in China, a testament to RozeMerie's exceptional talent and strategic foresight. The growth didn't stop there. In 2021, the JAC brand welcomed a strategic development partner, the founder of the Alfini Group as an important shareholder. This collaboration has strengthened the brand's product management, channel development, and operational capabilities, paving the way for even greater market recognition and share. The ultimate goal, to establish JAC as a top international designer brand, both in China and worldwide.
Welcome RozeMerie, it's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
RozeMerie Cuevas
Thanks, Glynis. Thank you for such a nice introduction. Very kind words. Thank you.
Glynis Tao
I had actually first heard of the Jacqueline Conroy brand in the early 90s when I was a student at Kwantlen College, which is now KPU.
RozeMerie Cuevas
You're now dating me.
Glynis Tao
Me too. But I just can't believe that when I was sitting down to write these interview questions, I was trying to just think back to the time when I first had heard of your name and your brand.
And so yeah, that long ago, which is crazy.
RozeMerie Cuevas
I often get calls from ladies or you know, some of our customers who find the product in vintage stores now. And they're like, I just found a Jacqueline Conoir in a vintage store. And they're just so excited about it. So yeah, we've been around for a long time. We've had an amazing journey.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And so now fast forward almost like 30 years later. We were sitting right next to each other at the BCAG meeting. So I turned over to you and asked you, how are you doing? You told me that you were living in China and you had met your business partner, you had moved to China and established your name brand in over a hundred retail stores there. So at that point I knew that I needed to have you on the podcast to share your story.
RozeMerie Cuevas
Yeah, it's been an incredible journey, I must say. I mean, you know, when I started at 22, I had no idea what would happen and where we would end up. But it has been an extraordinary, you know, a lot of challenges, a lot of, you know, triumphs. Just a really incredible journey. So yeah, I'm happy to share.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. So before we get into all that, let's go back to the early days and talk about the brand's origins. What inspired you to start JAC by Jacqueline Conoir, and how did you come up with the brand's unique vision?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, I guess the story starts, how did I get into fashion design, really? I never thought that I would be a fashion designer. It was not even an idea in my head that I could be a fashion designer. I simply sewed my own clothes when I was young and there were not a lot of fashion stores in Vancouver at the time.
My dad was very old fashioned. And so he didn't, you know, we weren't allowed to shop at what sweet 16 or whatever it was that was super fashionable at the time. So I just made my own clothes and then slowly I started making clothes for my friends. But I really never thought that was a, that was something that you would do as a career. I was actually going to school for commerce and economics. And I ended up in school and studying and I thought, what am I doing here?
But anyways, my cousin suggested that I do a fashion show at Richards on Richards, which was the hottest club in Vancouver at the time. And I thought, what? Fashion show me? No, it's impossible. But anyway, somehow he convinced me. So I arrived with my clothes, you know, in garbage bags. All the designers arrived with their clothes on rolling racks and pristine bags. And I was just mortified. I thought, I need to hightail it out of here.
But I didn't, I just stayed and the show went on and I was in the bathroom hugging the toilet bowl because I was so nervous. But at the end of the show, the women came into the bathroom and speaking of the fashion show and mentioning that the black and white scene was a designer that was only 18 years old. And they were talking about me and they called me a designer. And at that very moment, I was like, well, maybe I better go to school and see what this is all about. And so I packed my bags and off to Paris and went to ESMOD and it was one of the best schools in the world at that time, applied, accepted and away the journey went. So it was a really incredible start.
And then the way that we came up with the brand was my mother had passed away when I was five and her name was Jacqueline Conoir. And so the brand is actually in honor of her. So then when we rebranded to JAC, the brand name is J for Jacqueline Conoir, A for Andrea, my second daughter, and C for Celine, my first daughter. So it became JAC. So yeah, and the motto for JAC is JAC lives freely, leads by example, loves life, projects success, inspires, empowers action and knows exactly what she wants.
So the brand really was catering to empowering women, making them be the strongest that they could be, giving them the ability to walk into a room and really make a difference and allow their powerful inner side to shine. Let us worry about the exterior, you know. They focused on their ability to create success and be successful. And so that's how we created our career, our brand was all about empowering young women. And till today, we still have women who contact me by email saying they wore our garment all through the rise of their careers. And they went from being store managers to being CEOs and company owners.
So that really, really has been amazing to watch over the years. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that story and sort of the behind the brand's name. Because that was a question I was going to ask you. Where did the name Jacqueline Conoir come from?
RozeMerie Cuevas
So everyone wondered why is the designer RozeMerie Cuevas and the brand is Jacqueline Conoir or JAC. So really it was a dedication to my mom who passed away when I was very young.
Glynis Tao
Okay. That's very sweet.
RozeMerie Cuevas
A lot of logistical marketing, you know, challenges, but nevertheless, it's what we decided to do and I'm happy I did it.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And so from that vision that you started with, has it changed much from the original vision to what it is now?
It has always meant to be high, very high quality, reasonably priced, and affordable for most women. And it's always been there to, you know, really empower women, you know, by the way they dress to walk into a room and really show their presence. So Jacqueline Conoir, woman will, you know, walk into a room and you'll notice her.
I have customers emailing me saying that they'll wear a Jacqueline Conoir or a JAC outfit and people will stop them in the streets. So that's always really a great feeling. So it's a brand that has a particular DNA that just stands out just a little bit. So, yeah, women have been wearing it throughout their careers to advance themselves and make a presence when they walk into a room.
Glynis Tao
Well, the message must be strong enough to resonate with so many people, right? And touch them in a way that makes them feel that way. There's that connection between you and like the brand and themselves, and feeling embodying those, those feelings that makes them feel right?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
So let's call it talk about some of the challenges that you faced. What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced when you started the Jacqueline Conoir brand and how did you overcome them?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, I mean, I think as in every business challenges come and go and come and go and you tackle things. And I think every business has a seven year life cycle where, you know, you have to tackle all the challenges, but then you also have to reinvent yourself. So I think it's an ongoing situation.
But I think some of our major challenges in the beginning, the very, very beginning was everyone wanted international brands. No one wanted local. It was very different than today where everyone wants to support local. It was a completely different mindset in the 80s and the 90s. Everyone wanted Italian fashion, French, German, anything, or American, anything but Canadian.
And so it took us a while to establish a name for ourselves, establish that we are a great designer brand, that we had great quality, that we catered to the right demographic. And we actually made a name for ourselves by doing these really amazing feminine suits. Business suits in that time for women were very square and boxy, big shoulders.
And we came in with these very beautifully fitted shorter skirts and great fitted jackets with the shoulder pads. And immediately you could recognize a Jacqueline Conoir on the street. I think some of our challenge was to make ourselves identifiable, which we did by giving ourselves a particular DNA. We created massive events because the marketing was a bit challenging.
In the beginning, we couldn't get the media on board. And so we ended up creating amazing fashion shows and events, invited media, and slowly people started to really recognize the brand and want to be connected to it. Because everything we did, we did to the best that we could. So I think initially the challenges were getting people getting acceptance, getting media coverage, finding financing. So we were a very small business, so we needed to find financing.
So what we did is we continuously applied for competitions and we were nine time Matinee. At that time, the Matinee cigarette company used to sponsor the fashion industry, but now that's no longer acceptable. But in those days, we were nine time grant recipients and each time we won a grant, it was $35,000. So that was amazing as a designer to have that kind of injection of cash. So those are the three major challenges in the beginning. And then as we grew our business, the challenges were finding real estate that was affordable and then also growing our customer base in our VIP database.
And we did all of that through, again, really, really fabulous events and just make people feel like a family. That's continued for about 25 years. And then like anything, you know, you have a life cycle. And so in 2011, we rebranded and added JAC to our repertoire.
And it was a younger, edgier collection that attracted a different customer, but that also our existing customer really enjoyed as well. And so we added that brand and then in 2013 is when we decided to go global. And we were ready to really expand the brand. My kids had grown up. I was still very interested in fashion and didn't want to give up at that time.
And so we were looking for a partner to go international. We couldn't do it on our own. So that was another challenge.
Glynis Tao
So how big was your team at that time, at that point?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I would say we were 10 people. We were 10 people. A couple in our marketing department, maybe four or five people in our sales department. I did all the designing for so many years.
That's what I love to do. And then I had an assistant that I worked with constantly. So there was about 10, 11, 12 of us at any given time.
Glynis Tao
And did that just build gradually over time? Like from the inception of the brand, like originally were you the one doing everything?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Absolutely. My first few years I was doing the designing, the pattern making. I'm also a pattern drafter. So I was doing the patterns, the cutting of the fabric. I hired one sewer, one seamstress, but I was also sewing. I was sewing on buttons, just you name it. I was doing the fabric buying. I was doing the selling. When my daughter was born, I remember having her in the changing room and a little bucket seat and I'd sell and then I would design, then I would breastfeed, then I would, it was all really all encompassing. was really crazy, actually.
Glynis Tao
It's amazing, though, now looking back. What you have done. But I think, you know, I'm interested to know in terms of how you were able to balance the creativity part of and the more practical aspects of running a business because a lot of times designers come out of design school, fashion school, they're designers, they're not business people. So how did you manage that?
RozeMerie Cuevas
That's a really great question and something that all the young designers should actually understand is there's two parts to a business. There's the creative side and then there's the business side.
And you're right, a creative person doesn't actually understand the business side. So we made a lot of mistakes. We spent way too much money on so many things that we shouldn't have. We didn't keep our inventory under control. We bought things that were way too expensive for us and we should have held off. We should have bought the real estate that we were renting instead of continuing to rent. So there were many things that we should have done that would have put us in a better place in terms of business and profitability.
But again, you learn as you go. So any advice that I would give to a new young up and coming designer who, I mean, you choose either you want to be the creative person and just do that, or you want to be the creative person and have knowledge of the business side of things. Therefore you can actually understand when you do get a business partner or when you merge with someone or when you're working for someone else, regardless, then you understand the business side of it. You understand the expectation and limitations of the creativity.
So, but I mean, there's a lot of ways to be creative and stick to a budget. It doesn't mean because you need to stick to a budget that you can't be creative. I mean, we were extremely creative. We put on shows for 500, 600 people. And we did it on such a small budget, you know, so you get good at it, you try to manage it.
And my husband, my partner at that time, he was the one who actually managed all of our events. And he did a great job at that. And so we looked like we were a massive company. And yet we only had, you know, 5 to 10 people as a team.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, even though you were trying to figure it all out somehow you managed to make it all work.
RozeMerie Cuevas
Yeah. In normal circumstances, a designer will leave the business within the first three years. And so we made it past the first three years, then we made it past the next three years and then following three years and then 38 years later, we're still here. So it's baby steps. I think it's baby step by step.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Putting one foot in front of the other. Okay. So let's talk about scaling the business.
So from where you were then at that point, right, where you were more of a smaller startup, local brand, that time you were still mostly a Canadian brand based in Vancouver. Did you have retail stores then?
RozeMerie Cuevas
We did have retail stores. And we did them differently at different times. So sometimes we had a retail store on Granville Street. And then at one point we decided we were going to go off the main grid of retail streets. The rent became super expensive. And so I opened up a private 5000 square foot studio where we did all of our design and our sales and our shows. It was a multipurpose, huge warehouse space, which was very innovative at the time. And everyone just got on board and loved the experience. It was a shopping experience. We did little mini trends and shows and so on. So it was really fantastic.
But by about 2013, 2011, the manufacturing in Vancouver had really started to disappear. And so we were having trouble finding manufacturers to produce our kind of product. And so we really had to, we had a choice. We either had to find other places to manufacture our products, alternative manufacturing facilities or locations, or we just shut her down.
We weren't big enough to attract a large manufacturer, let's say in China or in other parts of the world, we just didn't have the quantity. And so we were stuck. So at that time we either were going to go bigger or we were going to just shut it down.
And so we tried a to meet up with a few different investors and the different partners. And it just so happened that we managed to meet a really great couple who had just landed in Vancouver and they were looking to meet like-minded people. And we were in the fashion industry. And so they came around and viewed our product, viewed our shows and they invited me back to China to just to see what their manufacturing facility was like.
And I said, look, let me bring the brand. Let's just see what happens when it's over there. And so we brought the brand over and showcased the brand to about 200 buyers and people jumped on board. And very quickly we decided we were going to be partners and off I went to Shanghai and to Hangzhou and that's where we set up the brand and very quickly we expanded. Everything happens in China speed over in China. It's very fast. So either you're on or you're off so within four years, actually we expanded to 110 stores. That was very quick.
Glynis Tao
Sounds like it all happened very quickly.
RozeMerie Cuevas
It was either we jump on board and try it or shut down the business because of the lack of manufacturing facility.
Glynis Tao
So this all happened out of this need where you were thinking like you needed to look for manufacturing. But you didn't think it would actually turn into what it is now like having over 100.
RozeMerie Cuevas
We were not thinking that we would actually expand that quickly. I had no idea it could actually happen that quickly. And we were happy with the business that we had. It was a great business. was giving us a really great lifestyle you know, the community supported the local design and it was just a great little business. And the idea of having it go international, obviously was something that we always wanted to do, but we really just didn't know it would happen at that time.
And so it just happened really by accident, not by accident. We really worked hard to make it happen. I brought the two rolling racks over. I asked them to let me put the product into their fashion show and made a real statement. And people really got on board with the brand. But initially the first three days when we were there, I was sitting there with two rolling racks in a huge sales meeting with 200 buyers and no one came over because they were busy buying the other brands. And then finally, after the third day, I thought, okay, I've got to do something. I have to get their attention somehow. So I went over and grabbed a few of the ladies and a few of the buyers. And I said, look, come over, take a look at the brand. And of course they were terrified of me because I was a foreigner.
At that time there weren't that many foreigners in China. But anyways, somehow we started communicating and they tried on the product, they loved the product before you know it, everyone had come over to the two rolling racks. And before you know it, my partner came over and said, let's do business. What can we do here? And so that's how it happened really. And then very quickly, four years later, we had 110 stores, but it really took a lot of work, a lot of work.
Glynis Tao
It didn't feel quick like that, right? Like, that's kind of the part that I want to get to, like really the meaty stuff. What really happened in between those years, like from when you first landed, set your foot in China, presented to 200 buyers, you know, did your thing and impress them, obviously. I'm sure your experience came into play here, right?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I mean, absolutely. I know the brand, I have a particular DNA for the brand. I was able to speak to women that I actually couldn't communicate with because of the language barrier. So I had the ability to communicate the DNA of the brand somehow. I don't know how I did it through visual fashion shows and so on. But also I was able to dress the women and give them a look. And they came out of the changing room feeling like different women, very powerful. And that's what the DNA of the brand did and does.
And so anyways, that was part of it. But then, you know, we negotiated an agreement and our agreement was a three page agreement and a handshake. I didn't go in with like a thousand page legal document. We didn't focus on that. We just focused on step by step. Can we get the brand being manufactured here? Can we design it here? Can I design 180 styles four times a year?
Because we had quadrupled the size of the collection. Is all of this possible? And so with a three page agreement and a handshake, you're relying on each partner to do their part. So I did my part, which was creating the creative look, the DNA of the brand, training the team in China, doing presentations, designing the boutiques, going into the stores, promoting the product, doing the social media, everything that and anything that I could do, I was doing.
And it was also teaching because their whole idea of what a brand was, it was very different from my idea of what a brand was. Everything had to be spotless. Everything to the final detail had to be perfect. And that, you know, in China, things at that time were very efficient, cost effective, but attention to detail was not the first thing on the list.
And so that needed to be taught to the entire team and quality needed to be taught. And so there were a lot of things that I needed to teach the team. And so step by step, you know, we built the brand over in China and step by step, my partner opened one store, then another store, then another store. And to each of these stores, I would go and again promote the brands, be present to promote. So in order to actually promote the brand, I was traveling to all parts of China. So North China, South China, East, West, wherever we were opening stores. And, you know, sometimes it was freezing cold and sometimes it was like 45 degrees and it was incredible also to visit so many different places. So yeah, it was just an incredible journey, but working seven days a week and 15 hours a day was the norm actually.
Glynis Tao
Was that your first time going to China?
RozeMerie Cuevas
It was actually my second time. The first time I was invited to China with a delegation of about another 20 Canadian companies. That was about six years prior to that. Interestingly enough, I also had an offer to bring the brand to China at that time. But at that time I slapped them with a thousand page contract and it went nowhere.
So the second time around, I realized that I had to go in step by step and not, you know, scare them away with this. Not I’m a prima donna, go in holding all the cards. My tactics were a little bit different the second time.
Glynis Tao
So that's what I want to ask you about your scaling global expansion into the Chinese market. Now that you brought your brand into China and have your business partners on board and they're helping you open up stores, you're doing all this step by step, getting the brand out there and stuff. Did you have to like, do things differently? Like in terms of how you approach business here, because I mean, you did mention some of how they see what is a brand is slightly different than how they see brand here in North America or in Canada.
So what were some of the differences that you experienced during this whole process? And did you have to adapt your design process, your styles, the sizing to fit the Chinese market?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, there were. So when you do business in another country, I do think there are a lot of aspects that come into play. And you definitely need to hear the voice of the people of the country that you're selling in. Cultural differences played a huge role. Just a small example, I love white flowers. So anytime we have an event, the, you know, the room is full of white lilies. And, but in China, white is referred to as for funerals. So anytime you have white, everyone for a funeral will dress in white, which is totally the opposite of what we might do here in North America.
But in China, everyone dresses in white and there's a particular belt they wear and everything is white flowers and so on. And so when the team was telling me, you cannot have white flowers for an opening, I was just at the beginning, I was almost irritated as you know, why could I not have these white flowers? It's such a simple request. But, you know, sure enough, a week later, a few weeks later, I see a funeral procession, you know, going down the street and everyone is in white. And so I think I realized that I needed to respect. My team really wanted us to do well. And so the idea that they were giving me or the information they were feeding me was really to help us be able to do the best that we could and respect the cultural differences. You you don't want to be showing all white flowers when that makes reference to a funeral. And also the design of that particular belt, we often had belts in our dresses, yet, you know, when it's that kind of belt, it is also again referred to a funeral. So we eliminated the belts, we adjusted the flowers,
Another thing is the low cut front line. In China you can go in short, short hot pants as you possibly want, but there's no cleavage. So the neck lines were raised just a little bit. And so yes, of course we adjusted certain things because there are cultural differences and it's important to respect the country that you are in, but they're so minor. And it's not that they're not accepted in another country. It's just, you need to be aware of certain things so that you can adjust it. Maybe the design was like this. We just kind of made it around this area. So you balance things out.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So was there a big learning curve for you at that in the beginning?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Absolutely. The learning curve was tremendous. I also realized how fast things happen in China. And so I had to get on board making decisions very quickly. I would ask for something. Or I would just think about asking for something. And the next morning it was on my desk. And I hadn't thought about it clearly. And so I had to really think very, very carefully about what I asked for because it would be on my desk the next day.
Another huge challenge that I had to get used to in terms of manufacturing. So because China is very cost effective and less quality at that time and our team was very cost effective. So, you know, I would say I need this blouse and I need this print on this silk blouse and here's the sample, give me a price. I would get this top back, I would get the price, we would put it into production or you know, put it into sales, put it into production. And then a week later, the store manager would call and say, the customer washed the t -shirt or washed the silk top and the print is gone. So I'm like, wow, that's interesting. So I call the manufacturer, asking why the print had actually disappeared. And he said to me, well, you didn't tell me that the print needed to stay. If you had told me the print needed to stay for a few extra RMB, the print would have stayed.
And I was just, but isn't it common sense that the print should stay? But the way of thinking is completely different. The primary key at that time was the cost. So if you want to lower costs, well, the print may not stay. It may stay, but it may not stay. Now, if you identify quality as your number one item, then they'll give you a different price. So I had to really think about what I was asking for, how I was asking for it and be very clear on what I wanted. And so that was a very big learning curve. Where in things that we just assume here, you can't just assume over there.
Glynis Tao
You have to be very clear on what ask for and how you communicate that as well. So do you have any issues with the language? Do you speak Chinese or Shanghainese?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I've learned some Chinese, you know, the colors, the sizes, the garment types and categories and so on. But the actual language to speak, it's a very difficult language. I really try. But when you're working 18 hours a day, it's really hard to then learn a new language.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. But I guess if you're in that environment, maybe you pick it up.
RozeMerie Cuevas
A lot. And we built a team that actually spoke English.
Glynis Tao
How many other Canadian designers can you think of that you know?
RozeMerie Cuevas
There are a lot of small businesses, I know a few businesses that have gone over and tried like Aldo shoes went over and tried a few times. LaVie en Rose went over a few times to try but all didn't manage to get on board there. But then there are companies like Lululemon, they're very successful in expanding their products into the Chinese market. There's North Face, there's Arcteryx, there's Canada Goose. So mostly activewear and outdoor wear have been very successful in opening the market in China.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, because I'm just wondering, you know, what was it like to be a completely new brand, to just show up in another country and then just open up shop there, right? You're not known.
RozeMerie Cuevas
As a small designer, as an independent designer, it's really impossible to do what we did without a partner. It's very difficult unless you have really deep pockets but even then you need to know the business culture. And the business culture is very different. It's all about who you know and who you can connect to and how you can make yourself noticed. And there is a whole ton of government sponsorships for individuals who will partner with Chinese partners. And so there's a lot of tax breaks and rent incentives and subsidies that you can apply for when you actually have a partner.
There are a lot of ways to do business in China. You do need to figure out how to maneuver it all. And I have so much of that knowledge in my head and firsthand experience, so I'll be looking to guide other companies who are interested in going into that market.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. Because I think you would have a wealth of knowledge with that having experienced it. Actually, another part of this why I was so interested in reaching out to you, wanting to talk to you about your experience of bringing your brand into the global market was that I was talking to a friend of mine who's a local designer here based in Vancouver, and she's been doing it for a number of years. She's very strong technically, strong technical design, know, pattern making all that stuff. She's trying to break into the market here in Vancouver and having a hard time. She's got a strong brand DNA, it's got a particular look, but I'm like, I don't know if maybe this is just not something that's very Vancouver, like, you know here we're more laid back, West Coast lifestyle into more of the outdoor recreational stuff.
But I'm like, maybe you want to explore another market, like don't just limit yourself geographically to Vancouver. What would you say to someone like that?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, it's really hard, I'd have to see the product first to be able to make any advice or to give any advice, I think. I mean, it's a very tough industry, the fashion industry is super tough, and it's changed tremendously over the years, people's needs have changed, the way people spend money has changed, the way people go out has changed. And so I'd have to see the product first to understand the product and whether it's a viable product for a particular industry or community.
But I mean, we also had a tough time, a tough go at it at the beginning. I remember we had pasta for dinner every single night until we could get the brand going. And it really took us at least 10 years to get the brand really going and a really good customer base. But the way we did it is we just made designing and developing the brand part of our lifestyle. So we would do huge events and that would be our entertainment or we would, I don't know, I can't remember exactly how we did it, but every night we would invite customers to the boutique and we do special events. And I was just working all the time, all the time. There was no balance between life and vacation and this and that it was like seven, 15 hours a day for sure.
Glynis Tao
And that was before kids?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, it was before kids, during kids, with kids.
Glynis Tao
Everything in between. Yeah. You managed to make it work.
RozeMerie Cuevas
The fashion shows they came to all of our events. They were at the booth at this, you know, our studio after school. They were just part of it.
Glynis Tao
My goodness. Are your kids involved in your business at all?
RozeMerie Cuevas
No, they have their own careers. You know, they saw how difficult it is.
Glynis Tao
No, thanks.
RozeMerieCuevas
Yeah, you have to have the passion for the industry, the passion for the business, and if you don't, it is tough. I think to do this business, you have to really love fashion. You have to love what you do, be prepared to put in the time.
Glynis Tao
What personal qualities or skills do you believe have been most instrumental in your success as a founder?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I think I'm really strong at leading by example. I think that's one of my key reasons for success. I empower the team. I think that without your team, you're nothing. So really to be able to empower your team, put the team before yourself is really important. You have to have a lot of stamina and you have to really be able to inspire people and motivate people. I think you have to also believe in yourself and know exactly what you want and just go for it.
So those are all messages within our JAC message. So JAC lives freely, leads by example, loves life, projects success, inspires, empowers action and knows exactly what she wants. So that is the JAC woman. That's our JAC team. So no matter how you cut it, those are the important elements of knowing what it takes to be successful.
Glynis Tao
And those I guess core values or what you would say has been is woven into the JAC DNA brand DNA.
RozeMerieCuevas
And also surrounding yourself with people who believe in you and people who are strong individuals in what they do as well and so I definitely could not have done any of this all on my own. First, it's the people who are around me that were supportive, that helped, that were always there to lend a helping hand. And then there's the team who worked endless hours and really gave their all to make it a success. So I think, and it's a team effort, no one person does it individually. So I think when you acknowledge that, I think it's karma. Life is karma. You give out what you get back. And so that's what I believe is actually the key to any success.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Is there anything that you would have done differently in your journey with your business?
RozeMerieCuevas
If I would have done it again, I would have done everything possible to buy the real estate in which we were doing our retail stores. I think if I had to do it again, I would definitely buy the real estate. Instead of paying rent all those years, I would have done my best to manage to buy the buildings that we were renting. After all, real estate is what actually goes up in value tremendously.
Glynis Tao
Right. Any final advice that you would give to aspiring fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a global brand?
RozeMerieCuevas
Well, I think I would tell them they should talk to as many people as they can, speak to people who have experience and who have gone through the challenges. And although the challenges today are very different than they were maybe 20 years ago. There is a common thread so learn from the people who have already done it. Again, believe in yourself. Don't give up, but have a clear vision.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
RozeMerie Cuevas
You can post my email address. I'd be happy to take emails. No problem. Yeah. Thank you so much. And your brand Jacqueline Conoir brand is on Instagram and all social media.
RozeMerieCuevas
JAC is on Instagram. I have a Facebook JAC by JC or RozeMerie Cuevas. Also, I think I've given you all those links. You're welcome to post them. I'd be happy to speak with people if they need my help.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much, RozeMerie, for being here today and sharing your insight and knowledge into the fashion industry.
In this episode, Carol Shih, founder of Qode Space, a Shopify web development and creative agency, shares her journey and the ethos behind her business and community work. Her approachable and outgoing personality, combined with a deep understanding of the challenges and nuances of being an Asian female entrepreneur in tech, allows her to connect and uplift others who face similar challenges and experiences. Not only does Carol share valuable advice for e-commerce business owners, she also shares about the impact of creating meaningful connections, embracing one's identity, and openly giving and asking for help from peers in the industry and wise mentors. As she balances her professional goals with motherhood, Carol also shares her honest perspective around “wanting it all” and how certain aspects of American Westernized culture can create challenges for mom entrepreneurs.
About Carol Shih
Carol Shih is an Australian-Taiwanese immigrant and the founder of Qode Space, a female and minority-owned web development agency. With a focus on Quality, Community, Transparency, and Purpose, Carol is committed to fostering inclusivity in the tech industry for women and minority leaders. She aims to balance the industry by delivering outstanding and high-quality design development work for e-commerce business owners. Additionally, Carol serves as a senior partner for Major Asians, an organization dedicated to providing exclusive and unique branding strategies to the AAPI community.
Leaning on your network and mentors can provide valuable support and insights as a founder.
The vision and mission of a company should align with its core values and target audience.
Understanding customer behavior through data analysis is crucial for effective website development.
Avoid the common mistake of trying to replicate competitors without considering your own unique customer base. Using data and analytics is crucial for making informed creative and development decisions.
Balancing design aesthetics with conversion optimization is a challenge, but it's important to prioritize functionality and best practices for better conversion rates.
Having mentors and a supportive community is essential for overcoming entrepreneurial challenges.
American Westernized culture which tends to be more individualistic than other cultures can create challenges of isolation for mom entrepreneurs who think they have to do it all.
Qode Space aims to continue supporting e-commerce clients for web development as well as be an incubator for young females in tech, and support Asian-founded brands.
The A Major Asians podcast highlights and supports Asian-founded brands and aims to create a more inclusive community.
Interview themes
How does being in a community benefit entrepreneurs both professionally and personally?
Carol’s community, including peers and mentors, has played a crucial role in her journey. She relies heavily on a network of female entrepreneurs and industry experts, and has found that mutual support and advice have been essential in overcoming challenges. Her network provides her with resources, guidance, and a collective of like-minded individuals who collaborate to navigate the complexities of entrepreneurship together.
As a mother, Carol says she “wants it all”, to be a successful business owner, a good mom, and serving her community. As an Asian immigrant to the US, she observed that in American Westernized culture, there is a lot of personal space and people who want to keep to themselves—which in turn creates isolation for female founders who feel they have to “do it all”. She credits her “village” (partner who is a hands-on dad, friends who offer to babysit, helpful professional network) for enabling her to manage her professional and personal life effectively.
Why should entrepreneurs spend and invest in market research?
Investing in market research to look at data and analytics allows you to make informed creative and development decisions. Carol stresses that data analysis in business, particularly in user behavior, is essential for understanding customer interactions with your website, such as where users click, linger, or fail to add items to the cart. Many brand owners invest heavily in creating visually appealing content for platforms like TikTok and Instagram without knowing if it effectively attracts and engages users or improves sales conversions. Entrepreneurs often make the common mistake of trying to replicate competitors without considering their own unique customer base. Carol advises businesses to focus on analyzing and understanding one's own data rather than comparing with competitors.
What can entrepreneurs do about their strengths and weaknesses in order to build a successful business?
Carol advises entrepreneurs to assess their skills honestly, identify gaps, and seek out partners or employees who can complement their abilities. Recognize your limitations and borrow the strengths of others to create a more balanced and effective team. Focus on what you do best so that you can maximize productivity and efficiency in those areas.
For example, while Carol excels at networking and business development, she recognizes her limitations in finance and technical project management. To compensate, she partners with individuals who excel in these areas. This strategy not only strengthens her business by covering all bases effectively but also frees her to devote more energy to her areas of expertise, driving growth and innovation.
How does personal experience as an immigrant to the US and Asian culture impact business and purpose?
Carol initially moved to the U.S. from Australia at 19, aiming to expand her opportunities. Her professional journey began in the digital marketing agency world, heavily involved with fashion e-commerce. After gaining extensive experience and realizing the underrepresentation of Asian and female leaders at the top tiers of businesses, she felt compelled to take control of her own destiny. This realization led her to join and eventually take over Qode Space in 2018, aiming to break through the glass ceilings she encountered and drive change within the tech industry.
Carol envisions transforming Qode Space into an incubator for young women in tech, emphasizing the need for enhanced STEM education in North America. She advocates for programs that engage girls in coding, SEO, and data analytics, aiming to empower a new generation of female tech leaders by providing essential skills and knowledge.
Furthermore, Carol plans to devote more time to A Major Asian Podcast. The platform highlights the unique challenges and successes within the Asian American and Pacific Islander (AAPI) community. It allows Asian entrepreneurs and leaders to share their experiences, challenging stereotypes and celebrating achievements. The podcast seeks to inspire and empower its listeners by promoting a deeper understanding of the diverse identities within the AAPI community.
Chapters
00:00 Overcoming Challenges and Leaning on the Network
10:13 The Vision and Mission of Qode Space
15:26 The Common Mistake of Replicating Competitors
29:39 Using Data and Analytics to Inform Creative and Development Decisions
32:57 Balancing Design Aesthetics with Conversion Optimization
38:37 The Importance of Mentors and Community Support
43:53 Impact of American Westernized culture on mom entrepreneurs
46:40 Future vision for Qode Space
50:49 Major Asians: Highlighting and Supporting Asian-Founded Brands
Transcript
Carol Shih
You know, it's a constant three wheel problem that keeps coming up. And I think that how do I overcome it? There's many different ways. One, I utilize my community. I think a lot of us are on texting basis for that reason. I'm open to sharing my challenges and I find a lot of female founders doing the same thing. So I always say, it's kind of like your phone a friend list. I would text you like, my gosh, this is happening to me. Do you have an SOW issue? Can I share?
And I really lean on my mentors as well. I try to gather a lot of very knowledgeable mentors in my industry. And I lean on them to give me some insights, whether or not it's a growing pain of mine or it's a personal challenge when it comes to becoming an entrepreneur. So it's leaning on my network and leaning on the shortness of my knowledge and gaining more from the people around me.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Carol Shi is an Australian Taiwanese immigrant and founder of Qode Space, a female and minority owned web development agency. With a focus on quality, community, transparency and purpose, Carol is committed to fostering inclusivity in the tech industry for women and minority leaders. She aims to balance the industry by delivering outstanding and high quality design development work for e-commerce business owners.
Additionally, Carol serves as a senior partner for Major Asians, an organization dedicated to providing exclusive and unique branding strategies to the AAPI community.
Welcome, Carol. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Carol Shih
Thank you so much, Glynis. You did such a great job introduction and for a lot of these guests, I think I want to bring you everywhere I go now. Like, you're such a good intro.
Glynis Tao
I'll help you do your intros. If you want me to. I don't know. Thank you. I've never been given that compliment. So I'll take it. We had met through the 10th house, which is a membership community founded by Rebecca Minkoff and Ali Wyatt. That's part of the female founder collective. We chatted a few times and really hit it off. One of the things that really struck me about you is your outgoing personality that's very open and approachable.
You're like one of those people who's funny and easy to get along with and you make people feel at ease.
Carol Shih
Thank you. I, to be honest, you and I have been connecting for so long, I forgot how we met. So good, good note to bring back to 10th House.
Glynis Tao
No, I had to do some digging there.
Carol Shih
But yeah, and I did remember it stood out because 10th House was such a big organization with so many female founders. And one, it was easy for you and I to spot each other because we were both in tech. And two, we were also one of the few that are Asian and female founders in the group, I feel like. So I don't know, I feel like you and I connected right away there, but thank you for the compliment. I am known to be quite the talker. And I think that's why I got invited to your podcast.
Glynis Tao
And you're also a mompreneur like me too. You have a little boy, right? And how old is he?
Carol Shih
Yeah, I have a little boy that's about two and a half, almost three. And I am also in my second trimester welcoming a second one soon.
Glynis Tao
Congratulations.
Carol Shih
Thank you.
Glynis Tao
So we're going to be talking more about balancing business with motherhood a little later on in this podcast. But first, let's talk about you. Something I recently found out about you is that you are super connected. You're like a super connected person. Like you've introduced me to a few really awesome people in your network. You come across to me as being extroverted. Are you an extrovert? Would you say?
Carol Shih
That's a good question. People think that way. But in order to be perceived as an extrovert is not just, you know, you're very outgoing, but I think that as an extrovert, you depend on that based on how you gain energy. And to be honest, even though my husband's very quiet, he's actually more extroverted because he likes to be with people and he gains energy when he's outside. Whereas I have the spark of energy to go and network and connect with people. But then I want to be at home three days straight and talk to nobody.
So I don't know, I think it's an introvert extrovert kind of a thing. But but I am a super connector. Because I feel like it started off when I was an immigrant, and I'm still an immigrant. I'm Australian Taiwanese. And I came to the States when I was 19. And I realized that when I come here with no family, I don't have anyone to depend on but myself and my network and my community. So I was very big in joining in communities, being in part of organizations. Even when I was in college, I was like the Taiwan Student Association president because I really want to be inclusive and bring people like me together. And I guess that extended to my career. And I just found a lot of success when I bring in the right people and connect people to the right groups. And it's, it's a passion of mine. And I think I can still see that.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So it's something that you saw as a need that you needed to do, I guess, when you first moved to the States, and just kind of became more natural to you. And then you built your community and network that way.
Carol Shih
Yeah. I mean, I came in and I think the label that I got was I'm a FOB, fresh off the boat. I speak fluent English. I went to an American school in Taiwan. But I don't know anything about the American culture, lingo, slang, how to use a credit card. I came from a country that only uses cash, right? So a lot of times how I survive is asking questions, be shamelessly asking questions.
And I start to realize that's kind of what community is for when you build yourself around good friends, people you trust. Some people use this like a church group, some people use this like different organizations. And those are your kind of safety net to ask these dumb questions. And of course, back in the day, not gonna share our age group, but we didn't have Google to always give you the answers. So we have the neighborhood and the people around you to kind of support you and give you some tips. So yeah, I find that very valuable and I still do. I still think that helping people is the most genuine way to build long-term relationships.
Glynis Tao
And so you still apply that to your business. Like, do you have any tips to give to someone who, you know, wants to start building their network?
Carol Shih
Yeah, I think that I work a lot with brand owners, business owners, and I always tell them like, listen, let's say you are a brand owner for a shoe company. You are an expert at making shoes, which means that your network is probably through textile production manufacturer, right? You might be an expert in all that, but that's not part of just doing business, right? You also have to know 3PL. You have to know, you know, maybe some development work, web development, or like e-commerce, marketing. Like there's all sorts of things that's outside of your wheelhouse and you just simply can't do it all.
As much as you want to be a unicorn, if you spend time and try to go outside of your expertise, you really stretch yourself too thin. And I think the best way to approach it as a business owner is to recognize number one, your weakness and your strength. And once you know that, my suggestion is find the people around you that will fill in your weakness.
Like for me, I'm like you said, I'm very good at networking. I'm very great at business development and sales per se, but, maybe I'm not great at finance. I am not good at like maybe understanding project management when it comes to technical skills internally. So I have to lean on a great partner that can really fill in my weakness.
And I think that recognition, I found that very early on in my career to understand like, I need somebody like you who understands SEO and I need a good partnership. So then when clients ask me, hey, Carol, do you have anybody that you know that can do SEO? Then I know where to pull you in. So I think you and I already see a lot of examples of how we can work together based on our weaknesses and strengths.
Glynis Tao
So true. So, let's take a little step back and talk about starting your company, Qode Space. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and what inspired you to start Qode Space?
Carol Shih
Great question. So like I said, I came to the States when I was 19 and I'm an Australian citizen. And I knew that early on I wanted to stay in America to expand the opportunities. So in order to do that, I picked a very broad major in order to apply from working visa all the way to getting a green card. And so I picked communication and marketing. And while I was doing all of that, I had to start applying for a job right after my senior year in college. And it was very difficult because even though it's a very broad major, I have a lot of options. Not a lot of corporate companies supported work visa sponsorship, as well as green card. So it has to be very specific. And I was very lucky and I'm still grateful today because I fell into the digital marketing agency world. And at the time that digital agency was heavily invested in fashion e-commerce. So I then dove right into fashion, which was also one of my passions at the time.
Prior to that, I interned at Louis Vuitton. And so that was an easy step in for me to understand the fashion life cycle. And then I step into fashion e-commerce where I touch a lot of big brands such as the Juicy Coutures of the world, Seven for All Mankind, Splendid Alamos, especially a lot of denim brands because that's where the digital agency was growing from. So the Paige, the Hudsons that was born in LA, I was able to touch that as an e-commerce business from front end to back end, meaning like I was involved in studio production. I was involved in front end, back end, warehouse production, as well as marketing, SEO, paid search, paid ads. And I became an account director there.[
After seven years, I touched more than like 40, 50 brands, including beauty and fashion, some CPGs as well. And that's kind of how I gained all my experience. And then after that, of course, there's rise and fall of digital agency. Unfortunately, I got laid off due to the, I don't know, was it the political climate at the time or was it just how, you know, businesses get acquired, but I was let go. And then I worked at Alibaba for also a year and I gained a lot of cross-border experiences.
And after that, I kind of hit an epiphany. I realized that, you know, I work for so many years tirelessly without vacation. I finally got my green card obtained, but you know, I'm really working hard for another brand, for somebody else. And people like me and like you who are Asian and female, I don't see a lot of us at the top. I don't see us at advisory boards. I don't see us as CEOs, C levels. I always see us as middle management and we work so hard. And when it's time to cut budget and when it's time to let people go, we are always the one on the chopping board. And it was very hurtful for me because it kind of hit that, this is where my glass ceiling is. This is where I cannot move forward anymore. And so that was really hurtful and.
You know, again, through luck, while I was looking for a job in between, Qode Space was actually started by two developers, and they were great developers, but they didn't have any connection when it comes to building a business, networking, building in leads. So they were like, hey, Carol, you know, why don't you come forward and help us out? And then gave me a little equity. And that was 2018. And then before we know it, the two founders actually exited and I took on Qode Space in all, and I also found another partner, also a mom and also minority.
We really aligned on our core values and we rebranded Qode Space two years ago and it's been flying off since.
So it's a fantastic journey and I learned so much and as well as for myself and as well as how that industry works right now.
Glynis Tao
Amazing story. Wow. Thank you. I didn't know all of that background on it. I didn't know that you had acquired the company. Okay, so what were some of the initial challenges you faced when you started Qode Space? And how did you overcome them?
Carol Shih
My goodness, Glynis, how do we even? That's the big question.
Glynis Tao
Let's get those out of the way.
Carol Shih
You and I talk about this, right? I think being especially an agency owner, we worry about three things. It's client, sales and employees. So it's like always playing whack-a-mole. You're either worried about your sales pipeline. You're like, how do I survive next month? Right. Or you worry about the current clients complaining or you have to update or fix your operational system. There might be a pricing issue. There might be you know, technical issues within your services that you're providing. And if everything goes well, you might have an employee issue who's telling you like, I need a raise. I want more from this company or, you know, it's a constant, constant, a three wheel problem that keeps coming up.
And I think how do I overcome it? There's many different ways. One, I utilize my community. I think a lot of us are texting basis for that reason. I'm open to sharing my challenges and I find a lot of female founders doing the same thing. So I always say it's kind of like your phone a friend list. I would text you like, my gosh, this is happening to me. Do you have an SOW issue? Can I share? Like, can you share your insight to me? Or, and I really lean on my mentors as well. I try to gather a lot of very knowledgeable mentors in my industry and I lean on them to give me some insights, whether or not it's a growing pain of mine or it's a personal challenge when it comes to becoming an entrepreneur. So honestly, it goes back to what we talked about in the beginning. It's leaning on my network and leaning on the shortness of my knowledge and gaining more from the people around me.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that's so interesting. And important to be able to have a community and network people who you can turn to for support. I'm just wondering, like, women seem to reach out more maybe, and share their problems, maybe more so than men would. I'm just guessing because sometimes I think men maybe it's harder for them to kind of admit that, I need help with something, but in the case of women, I find that almost all the women I know, women business owners are just there to help one another and to support one another. And there's just like so many like now, fortunately, like communities, groups, just like the 10th house, right? I was talking about earlier that has all these people there that not allowed us to meet, right? And now, feel like we're like peers to one another as well. And we're sort of on that texting basis, which is, it's nice, right?
Carol Shih
Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's also culture. I mean, in the beginning, it was difficult to be vulnerable and admit that you don't know something, especially in our world as female founders and as Asians. We're always taught, at least in my culture in Taiwanese, it's like, hey, you're a girl, shut up and go to the corner and just do what you're supposed to do.
But it's hard to raise your hand and be like, hey, I need help. How do I do this? What does this mean? How do I get to the next level? And I think it's trial and error. The more I do it, the more, just like you said, these female founders just gather and lean in and be like, I got you.
Let me help you, let's go on a Zoom call and I'll share everything with you. No gatekeeping, let me just share my insight. And that was so heartwarming. And I realized, like, I need to do the same thing. The more I extend myself to help, the more help comes my way as well. And you're so right. It is that female founder community that I found a lot of comfort and also found a lot of success.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. Let's just go talk about, okay, I want to ask you about your company's vision and mission statement. Because I saw that it's, you have it on your website. Do you want to talk about that? What is your mission and vision of Qode Space? And how has it evolved since its inception or has it evolved?
Carol Shih
It definitely evolved because one, the founders changed. And two, we kind of honed in on our branding and realized that we need to step out and put a lot more emphasis on who we are and who we would like to serve. And I think that the uniqueness of being in the tech industry and in the web development industry, like we're not just doing marketing or social ads, where it's a little bit easier to market.
We are actually experts in web development, which means we are doing engineering work, development work, which is a very foreign ground for a lot of owners, right? Because when it comes to development, it's always like, you just, you know, zeros and ones. And a lot of times there's a lot of miscommunication as well as translation issues.
And that's kind of where I come in is to bridge that gap because I understand both business owner perspective, business perspective, and then I also understand development and engineering progress and process. So to bridge that gap, I think we kind of stand out. Number one, we are all female founders and we have extensive knowledge when it comes to development work. This is not just a men's world where everybody is in computer science, but there is a high rise of women that's in the tech world right now that have great knowledge, especially like my partner, her background used to be in SpaceX and she manages a team of developers as an excellent quality assurance. Nothing passes her eyes. She's the best quality assurance person I've ever met. And having her as a partner really gave me more confidence to sell who we are. And I think that that identity really brought us into our core values. And one of the biggest ones we added as of last year when we were rebranding is transparency.
So on top of quality being first, that's the reason why Qode Space starts with a Q is we put quality first, which is something that in the development world is very challenging. Cause you never know, people are like, I built a beautiful website. And then we flip and look under the hood. It's like, man, this was garbage. This is like Jenga. Like if I add another line of code, your entire website breaks.
And you're an SEO expert, you see through that immediately when you see how taggings work, product tagging, everything is a mess because they charge high, they shorten their timeline and whether they did it cheap or did it expensive, nobody knows what development really means. So I really pushed out quality.
And we talk about community, which is how our entire network was set up. And then we added being purposeful, who we intentionally wanna work with. And that's where, again, our female and minority identity comes in. We really wanna give out our talent and our skill sets to those that are more in need, who don't always get the eyes of the big agencies out there. And then we added the fourth core value, which is transparency. So, you know, a lot of people, especially you're talking about challenges, a lot of people from the same industry people have laughed at me when they looked at my proposal and be like, you're showing too much Carol. You're telling them way too much of our secrets because line item by line item. I tell them exactly how many hours it's going to take. Even though it's an estimate, it's like building a house. Yes. Building this bathroom could take like, you know, five to 10 days, right?
but I still give out that range for people to understand this is the effort that's gonna put out. I'm not everybody does that. They padded hours at random places, they lie or they add other services that might not even take that long, but then they'll say that's 40 hours, but you and I both know it takes 10 minutes because they're lying or being deceitful to people that doesn't understand development.
So I see through a lot of that working in the tech industry and I really, hone in and really, really kind of push for that four major core value, which brings into our statements that are and mission statement is that we're here to support help, even though our approach is a little different. And even though our margins not be as high, but we're not here to grow fast and big, we're here to grow long term as a boutique agency that serves.
Glynis Tao
That's great. So your your four core values, quality, community, purpose and transparency, right? Yes, so great values. I just wanted to ask you a question just sort of like, what is a common mistake that you see for most econ brands when it comes to their website development work? Like sort of the back end stuff, you've sort of touched on it earlier and I find having too many apps installed slows down their site. And, you know, most of them are not necessary. Like, is there anything else that you have seen?
Carol Shih
Yeah, good question. I think like, even when you say multiple apps, like way too many have really drags down the website. But I think it comes from the mindset of a business owner. And I see a lot of business owners get triggered when their competitor is doing something new. So for example, if you're a pet brand, like you're, you're selling pet products and you see your competitor coming out with like a new feature, like, Ooh, a bundle or like a buy one, get one off or something like that. Or they did a refresh or rethink or something like that, that in your eyes you might feel like, my gosh, you're making so much money because of this new update.
And then they come to people like us as a third party service provider and be like, I want the same thing. And the first thing I'll always say is number one, you don't know how much they invested. And number two, you don't know how much they are putting into researching what their customer wants.
And this happens so often because even if your competitor is selling the same thing as you, your customer behavior could still be different because you have different marketing strategies, you have different approaches and you have different eyes on your brand. So I would always say, and this is something that's so important and I'm still continue to tell my current clients and the new clients that I see is that spend and invest in market research.
User behavior research is so important right now. Data is key. Your data should be telling you exactly where to go. If you don't know how to build your website, you don't know what features to add, you don't know what apps to do, and you're just twiddling your thumb, and let me tell you, your marketing team will always ask you to spend, because you spend more, you get more. That's just how the marketing world works. Because you're fighting before the Q4 big hit holiday season,
Glynis Tao
So everybody wants you to know like, hey, spend now, spend now. And then so you can gain a tub of the funnel. So then by Q4, you have enough email lists so you can blast and then you have drip campaigns and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're all true, but at the same time, Q1, Q2, and Q3 even towards the end is a great time for you to data layer your website, making sure that your GA4, your Google Analytics or any reporting you're there.
You have a data analyst to tell you what those data mean. That's not your expert. Find somebody to tell you what is my user behavior? Who is he? Who is she? Where is she clicking? Where is she not adding to cart? Where is she lingering too long? Is she clicking onto the videos? And a lot of brand owners spend so much money on branding, content making, because of TikTok and Instagram.
They're just spending so much money on creating beautiful photos and beautiful videos. But do you know if people like it? Do you know if people aren't clicking into it? Do you know it's helping your conversion? And that's where the user behavior analysis comes in. So I always say, don't look at what your competitor is doing because they will panic you. It's just like back in school, right? Everybody else is getting a certain grade and you're like, why am I getting this? Before panicking and start self-doubting.
Look at where your mistakes are. That's pivot accordingly. And because everybody is a little bit different. So I would say that's like one of the most common things is I have to have a come to Jesus talk with a lot of my, my clients and say, okay, let's just, let's take a deep breath. Let's do some breath work at the zoom meeting. And number one is let's look at your Google analytics. Let's pull that up and see what that looks like month over month. And then we can use that data to see how you wanna tweak the website accordingly.
Glynis Tao
I think that's one of the big things that you mentioned on your site, I noticed that put an emphasis on that your agency is mission. It's like you're driven by data, right? Like you use data and analytics to inform creative decisions and development decisions, the creative designs and development designs.
Carol Shih
Yeah, I don't feel good when I tell people to do something that I know down the road they're going to change it again. I mean, money is scarce right now. It's not like back in the day, fashion people just have like tons of money to just change things, you know? I always say, let's do some A-B testing before you put all your eggs in the basket. Right? Let's change it up and see if this landing page works better than the other. Let's see if this add to cart button moving it up is going to help you with your conversion, right?
And I always say that because I think that it's maybe it's the Asian in me, spending money, you got to spend it smart, instead of throwing money at it and hoping it works.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so true. And I think with maybe a lot of designers, creatives, especially they're very emotional and very have the emotional connection, perhaps more to their brand and design. So maybe it is very hard for them to step outside and look at things more from an objective point of view. But, you know, it's business at the end of the day, they need to make sales. So they need a website that converts.
Carol Shih
I mean, all the pretty stuff, you know, that you see is important. The pictures, but you're so right. It's the emotional talk always, always because it's your baby. Number one, nobody wants to hear that your baby's ugly, right? Nobody wants to hear that. But sometimes it's our job, right? To be like, listen, we got to do something about this. Like, I know you think it's beautiful, but this is not a magazine spread. This is an e -commerce website. And there's still such a thing as best practices. We still have to follow that rule because it connects to conversion, right? Unless you're like the Gucci, the Louis Vuitton's of the world, you don't care and your website is more of a brochure and you have tons of stores that you can still drive in traffic. Like we really look at, the science. We need to look at the data, right? So yeah, the emotional part of it is so true.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it's a hard part for my job as well to have to crack and overcome it as well. I just kind of have to be gentle. You can't say someone's baby's ugly. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, you just gotta tell them the truth. Somebody has to break it to them.
Carol Shih
Yeah, I'm a little too straightforward sometimes and I have to be like, so I just wanted to let you know. Show you some examples. So I feel you.
Glynis Tao
Most of your clients when they come to you, are they looking for a new site or are they looking to refresh or are they looking to replatform?
Carol Shih
I feel like a lot of the brand owners, going back to what we're saying, their expertise lies within their product. So when they come to us, a lot of times there are probably, there might be some glowing issues, like glaring issues about their website. Like, I'm just not converting and I don't understand why. Or I know my performance is really bad because I opened up my mobile site and 60, 70% of your traffic always goes through your mobile. And we would run a free audit, which by the way, audience that are listening right now, we do offer free audit. And it has been a tremendous help for a lot of business owners because it's a report showing you where your website health is at.
And when you take a look at that, that's basically letting you know what issues you have on your website. And that is when we have more conversation. But I want to say a lot of times clients come to us with a glaring issue that they must fix immediately. And that issue usually leads to 10 other issues. It's whether the previous development team didn't really do a good job building your foundation or you know, you over exceeded like you and I talked about, you just downloaded way too many apps and you don't understand that certain theme could help you eliminate half of those apps cheaper because apps on Shopify store could be very expensive.
One of them's $30, $40, $100 per month. And then before you know it, you're spending like 20K a month on all these apps when you can spend $300 for a theme that has half of those features up there. Then that project became re-theming because that re-theming project is gonna help you save money down the road. So a lot of these explanations, a lot of the planning is what I do is, okay, let's stop for a bit. Let's look at your whole P&L and financial planning for 2024, 2025. If you go this route, this is how much you're gonna spend. If you go the other route and just make us do better cleanup, it will be a patchwork. And then a year later, you and I are gonna have another phone call about how to spend more to save more.
So yeah, it really varies. I always go back to do an audit first. One, let's do an app audit. And I want to tell you, nine out of ten times, too many apps. It's like the biggest one. I was like, all right, we got to cancel 20 of these apps. You really don't need it. And then number two, it's always tied to performance.
Glynis Tao
So interesting. I kind of think of it as like, you know, when you start to have car problems, it starts with this, like, it's the cars making a funny sound. And then you're like, shoot, what's that? You know, I better go take it to the mechanic and get it checked out. And you're like the mechanic, right? And they bring this, this website to you. And they're like, I have a glaring issue. Obviously, it's so do we, and then you open it up and look under the hood.
Carol Shih
I always tell my clients, I was like, I feel like I'm like a plumber because you never go and call a plumber until shit hits the fan.
Glynis Tao
Literally. Yeah.
Carol Shih
And by the time I'm in, first of all, plumbers visit you and we already have to pay them whether or not there's an issue or not. Just for them to show up. Yeah. And that's kind of how we are. I have to get a developer that knows, understands the function of a website, pop up of the hood. And you know, a lot of times this is not a problem. We just have to fix your piping. You know, not a big deal. Couple hours, we got you. But majority of the time, because the shit hit the fan already. It's like, you got a molding issue. You got pipeline disconnection. You have this and this, this and this. And you know, and it never feels good as a business owner to realize that I really need to use this bathroom and how long is this gonna take and how much is it gonna be?
So it's always a big headache and they treat us really like a plumber. It's like, they're just like, can we go anywhere cheaper? I'm like, yeah, of course, of course. There's a whole country, India, that you can find that is a lot cheaper. But again, it goes back to quality, right? And transparency and how much trust we have with each other to know that I'm really here thinking for your good. And I'm building a much better foundation so that in the future, when you call me, it's for maintenance, not because really things are flying around.
Glynis Tao
So I just wanted to go back and talking about, you know, your business and sort of overcoming challenges part. If you had, do you have any mentors or people that have worked with you throughout your entrepreneurial journey? Who has been your biggest supporter and mentor through your entrepreneurial journey and how important is the community? We've kind of talked about how important it is already how your community support has been in overcoming challenges?
Carol Shih
Yes, I have mentors, but I also like to call them my office therapists. Because a lot of times, you know, it's during panic moments, right? When we're like, my gosh, what am I going to do? And in my previous digital agency, I came across a female VP that was always so even keen and I watched her as she is in a room full of dominant men and she can speak so powerfully and so confidently and that draws me near her. And I think one of the questions I asked her was like, how do I be like you one day and not let my anxiety or my insecurity drive my conversation with my team? Then we talked a lot more about, you know, managing up, right? Managing our own insecurities and really putting a mirror in front of myself and understanding where I'm vulnerable and where I need help as a leader. But I think like every season, the support that you need, especially entrepreneurship, we keep growing, we push ourselves to a new level. Your mentors and the people that you need around you keep changing.
And I think that's one of the best things I love about networking is I also learn from my peers. And like right now, I joined the senior partner in the firm, Major Future, and then we branch out to do Major Asians. That group also was so beneficial for me because I then learned about the beginning stages of building a brand, like brand DNA, understanding brand story.
And then later on, they start building a website, which is where I come in. So I realized that my expertise lies within about stage three, stage four of a branding cycle. Whereas the branding part of the DNAs and beginning of stages and you then come in more like stage one, stage two. So then my mentors change and my expertise has to change and I continue to learn. So in that field, I try to find people that are like-minded.
I ask a lot of questions. Again, I think I'm relentless in asking questions. I pull people in like you and I go, hey, let's get on a call. I just wanna ask you some questions about what else I can learn more and how can we mutually help each other out. So it's a constant learning stage being an entrepreneur in my opinion.
Glynis Tao
Constant learning and constant juggling because not only do you have a business, you also have a little kid as well. So it's like, I feel this constant juggle of not feeling guilty when you have to do your work and then you're like, not being able to pay attention and play with my kid right now, because I got to get this thing done or I'm like with my kid, but then I'm like, shoot, I got to apply back to this client. So how do you balance running your business with the demands of motherhood?
Carol Shih
I think that was like the most common question I get. And I don't know if I particularly like that question of like, hey, how do you do it all? Because men don't get asked that question. Men don't really get asked that question when they're an entrepreneur. How do you do it all? You're a dad and you're like an entrepreneur. You do everything.
Honestly, when I get asked that question, I think about my husband. He also works from home and I am so grateful, so lucky that he's a very involved dad. He's the one who picks him up. He also cooks and he is very involved in the day to day of my child. Hence the reason why you and I can get on calls and I can pick up sales calls or go to conferences and moderate events at night and all that.
And when you say like, how do I deal with guilt? I think the mom guilt never leaves, right? It's like, we're never doing enough. And that's something, it's biological. Like the baby comes out of us, we know how they feel. And it's, even if I'm not there, I'm thinking about them, right? And now I'm pregnant again. One, I'm like, why did I do this again? Did I forget how difficult this is? I'm gonna do this all over again. But it's also part of like, you know, a certain age group, we want our kid to have siblings, we still envision being that family that we always wanted. And it's like, you want it all.
I don't think it's like, how do you do it all? I think it's because we want it all. We wanna be a business owner. We wanna be a great mom. We wanna be a great leader. We wanna be a good friend, you know? And how do we balance that out? It's like every day is a little bit different. And if you have an amazing partner and you have amazing community, that's why they say it takes a village.
And the American Westernized culture, I know you're Canadian, I'm very much looking forward to seeing if I can move there. But I am already Australian, I already have two passports, maybe I need to calm down. But I truly think that I learned that the hard way about American culture is that there's a lot of personal space, people wanna keep to themselves, but that part really has been hurtful to a lot of female founders is that, you gotta do it all. And I just don't believe that. And I feel like it's all about your community and your village that helps you out. I have great friends that are willing to step in and be like, hey, you and your husband should go take a break. We're happy to watch your kids, you know? And that's like without grandparents' help as well.
So I don't do it all, but I want it all. And so every day it's whack-a-mole. Like today I might not be a hundred percent of a mom, but I know I did amazing being a founder. And some days I am very tired being a founder, pushing for leads, getting conversions, right? But I know today I spent a lot of time with my son in the backyard and we played catch. And I think in his eyes, I scored a hundred percent.
So you just have to, you know, tell yourself, don't score yourself too low. I think you're doing the best you can. And that's what we strive for in life.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. I love that. I think I need to find a better way to rephrase that question in terms of the balancing cart, but maybe it's more of an integration. It's like part of your life, you know, your work, your life, family, it's like, things that you want, you want to do it all. But how do you get that done? How are you, you know, and some, some way, somehow, we figure it out. Like, you know, not like it kids come with a manual, right? They're not born with a how to guide how to parent, how to, you know, so, you know, I have to give credit to all those hardworking mommas out there.
Carol Shih
Not easy. Yeah. You're on the same boat.
Glynis Tao
Let me just ask you quickly about the Major Asian podcast that you are working on. So how did this all come about? How did you get started on it? And why was the reason like that you got involved in this project?
So Major Asians stems from the Major Futures Foundation and organization. And they are a New York founded branding firm with a handful of very talented senior partners. And I came in as a new senior partner around, I wanna say like three months ago. And I think the couple of Asians in there, found us to have a lot of mutual connections as well as mutual interests in really being inclusive in supporting Asian founded brands. And we also see a huge opportunity where Asian brands such as the Korea, Singapore, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong's of the world that want to enter into the North America region, especially like with the buying power of North America.
I think a lot of Asians brands are looking to see, well, you know what, if you're already manufacturing in our country for so long, we want a piece of that pie as well. And you and I both know like when we go back and visit Asia, we always want to bring some of these brands back. We're like, my God, this face mask is amazing. Or like the snack is amazing. We want to like, you know, blow it up here in LA or in Vancouver or in like all these different places that has a large population of Asians.
And especially during AAPI month, we talked so much about how to, I think one of our quotes are, you know, rising tide, raise all boats. So, and there's also a saying in Chinese that, you know, the good nutrient flows within your own family. You don't really share it out. And so that kind of brings us to hone in on this Asian community of how do we support each other to elevate the brands that want to expand in the North American region. And I think there's also culturally a trust that is unspoken, especially with Asian communities. It's like, if you're Korean and then you bump into somebody in, let's say, like you said, like Canada or somewhere that's like the diversity is not as widespread and you see another Korean. Just like me, when I see a Taiwanese in the middle of a random place in LA and we don't find ourselves very often. It's like immediate connection, immediate trust. And that's just kind of how that connection works. And we're kind of rolling off of that. So that's kind of how Major Asians came about. And that podcast we are starting is focusing on highlighting a lot of Asian brands that are starting off as a startup here in the United States and in Canada and what their journey looks like and really just highlight a lot of these brand owners and product owners and see where they're going and how can we support as a community.
Glynis Tao
Amazing work that you're doing and I love that and I feel like there is that connection just between us as well, both as being you know, Asian women, business owners. I mean, I don't think it doesn't matter what geographically where you are, whether you're American or Canadian, I still feel like we face a lot of the same things, same issues. And so that's great that you are part of this podcast to really spread that awareness and talking, actually just talking about these issues that the AAPI community is facing and addressing that through your podcast, using it as a platform, right? To bring that awareness and have those conversations often don't talk about?
Carol Shih
Always. I think, like, especially as Asians, we suck at talking about our own problems. We suck at asking for help. Right. And so I was telling my partner, so I was like, we just got to ask some tough questions. And I remember I was at an Asian founding network event, and I was hosting my small group. And I kind of had to force people and say, like, hey, go around and tell each other, how can we support? Why are you here in this networking event? And then you kind of see everybody like, well, you know, we're just here to network. And I had to stop and I go, no, no, no, no, no. You and I both know you came in here for something, right? Do you need an investor? Are you looking for a web developer? Are you looking for an expert? Let's be bold and ask because you never know what you're going to receive.
And then you start seeing the people start opening up. And I think that's such a cultural thing, right? No matter what Asian you are, we're always about being respectful. Don't ask, don't be too bold. But I think that's a mentality we need to change because one, people can't read your mind. And two, we need to overcome that culture in order for us to grow to another level. So it's time for us to really stand up, ask ourselves what we want and how can we get the universe to help us out by speaking out loud about what we need.
Glynis Tao
Cheers. Here's to that, you know? I want to give you a high five. It's so hard to have those conversations. And even as Asian women ourselves, kind of like, yeah, we know that's there, but we just don't want to talk about it. Let's just kind of pretend it's not really happening.
Carol Shih
And just not talk about it ever. And like, I love one of my mentors, she told me she's like, what's the worst is going to happen? I don't know, we're gonna get no, then you get a no. And then you move on. And once you recognize the biggest damage, it's not your reputation, it’s just people going, sorry, I can't help. That's it. Let's keep asking.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it's an automatic no if you don't ask.
Carol Shih
See, you get it. We all get the concept, but it's hard to step out of your comfort zone.
Glynis Tao
It really is. And it's like taking me almost a lifetime to learn those lessons. Yeah, it's a process. But that's awesome. And before we we end off here, I want to ask you about your future plans for Qode Space and A Major Asian podcast. What do you see yourself, both your company and podcast? Where do you see yourself in the next five years?
Carol Shih
Five years is far. I'm a planner myself. I'm a Virgo and I love to plan. And I think the last couple of years being an entrepreneur, I learned to not plan too far because our long-term plan is like, I'm gonna be a millionaire and I'm gonna get in five years. But I think there's always that realistic step that you really need to plan out. And for me, the short-term is I am pregnant right now, I'm having a baby in November. So my biggest thing is I wanna take a maternity leave and really take care of myself because I need to make sure I am watered so that I'm able to provide for the team and for my family. So the biggest thing for the Qode Space future is looking for somebody to fill in my spot during maternity, which we already have things planned out.
But in the long-term, I see Qode Space really being an incubator for a lot of young females that want to learn more in tech. I am very big in education. I think that whether it's Canada or United States, there's a lot more investment that needs to happen in the STEM program to encourage girls to learn about coding, to learn about like what SEO is, what paid ads are, and a little bit deeper into data analytics, push them to do some computer science classes, you know, which is again, still an unpopular category in a lot of the educations.
So I see Qode Space continue to grow as a boutique agency. And I see myself investing a lot more time in A Major Asians because my passion personally is still to be very inclusive and support the people that look like me, that understands the struggle. Because I think being an immigrant here in the United States really taught me one, of course, the importance of community, but also to support. And I think that brings me so much joy when I see the younger version of me getting that help when I didn't have it back in the day. So that's kind of like always been my strive and my motivation to keep pushing on to do what I do.
Glynis Tao
So from that point, I just let me ask you one more question. What advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs based on your own experiences and lessons learned?
Carol Shih
I think that I always say this. If you're looking at your business, James Clear said, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And I think that's a quote that I really pulled close to my heart because I'm an operational and process person.
And I think that before you're thinking too far, like you said, where is your five-year, 10-year plan? I think before you even do that, you have to look at your systems in your business and see, is this system really going to lead me to that goal that I want? So one, asking for help, understanding your own weaknesses and surround yourself with people that will be willing to help you to kind of fulfill that weakness, but also really understands that your system, the process, your operations, everything should align with your long-term goals. So I truly live that by the heart.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Carol Shih
You can find me on LinkedIn. I do post quite a bit there. You can also add me on social. My social name is Carol Shih, but my Instagram name is K-A-R-O-L and Z as in zebra, karolz. And my husband is a photographer, so a lot of the photos is a lie. I do not always look like that in person. Glynis knows that, but yes, you can find me in a lot of places and you can also find me on QodeSpace.com when you contact us.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much, Carol, for being here today and talking to me, sharing your journey, your entrepreneurial journey with us. I had such a blast.
Carol Shih
Thank you so much. This is such a wonderful podcast. We'll be spreading the word for you and I appreciate your friendship and your partnership. It's been so great connecting with you.
