In this episode, RozeMerie Cuevas, fashion designer and founder of Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir, shares her experience and lessons learned from over three decades in the industry. From her first fashion show debut at a nightclub in Vancouver at age 18, to establishing her Vancouver-based brand in 1986 with just a small tight knit team, to eventually expanding into the Chinese market in 2013—RozeMerie credits teamwork, adaptability, and a tremendous amount of hands-on effort to make it all possible.
If you’re a fashion entrepreneur, this conversation will inspire you as you hear RozeMerie’s sound advice on how to create long-term success by building a strong brand DNA and making smart operational decisions.
About RozeMerie Cuevas
RozeMerie Cuevas is an icon in the Canadian fashion industry as the designer and founder behind two Canadian brands, Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir. Growing up, RozeMerie spent her teenage years sewing clothes for herself and for her friends but didn’t consider pursuing a career in fashion. She never thought of herself as a “designer”, but after her first fashion show at age 18 that impressed the attendees—RozeMerie realized that for her, being a fashion designer was possible and that she should go for it! Studying economics and commerce at the time, she decided to change course and apply for fashion school. Soon after, she packed her bags to attend the prestigious ESMOD School of Fashion in Paris.
Upon her return to Vancouver, RozeMerie created the women’s fashion brand, Jacqueline Conoir—the name in honor of her late mother. Over an impressive 36 year career, she has not only created and run successful brands but also received numerous design and influential women in business and business innovator awards in Canada.
In 2013, RozeMerie expanded into the Chinese market after a serendipitous meeting with a Chinese brand developer. That new partnership led to rapidly growing JAC to 100 stores in major cities in China within three years. By 2021, JAC further solidified its position by welcoming the founder of the Alfini Group as a key shareholder, enhancing its management, development, and operations. This strategic move aims to establish JAC as a leading international designer brand.
Establish a strong brand DNA to make yourself identifiable.
Create engaging experiences for your customers to create a strong customer base.
Respect and adapt to different cultures and business customs when entering new markets.
Focus on taking one step at a time when building and expanding a brand.
Empower your team and lead by example.
Interview themes
What does it mean to have a strong brand DNA, and what are the benefits?
A strong brand DNA means having a distinct identity that resonates deeply with your target audience and consistently reflects the core values and mission of the brand. For RozeMerie, the brand DNA of Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir is centered around empowering women to feel confident and capable in any situation throughout their career journeys. This is reflected not only in the clothing designs, which are meant to make women feel strong and noticeable, but also in the stories of customers who have worn the brand throughout their careers, using it as a tool to project success and confidence.
Additionally, the Jacqueline Conoir brand DNA involves a commitment to high quality and a unique style that stands out, which has allowed it to build a loyal customer base. The consistency in these elements—empowerment, quality, and distinctiveness—has been key to establishing and sustaining the brand’s identity in a competitive market.
How does teamwork help a fashion brand succeed?
RozeMerie believes that no one can achieve greatness alone, and she has always prioritized building a strong, collaborative team. Stating that “without your team, you’re nothing,” she advises brand owners to lead by example while empowering their team to take initiative and contribute their best. RozeMerie’s approach to teamwork has created a sense of ownership and pride amongst its members, contributing to sustained growth and the ability to navigate challenges.
How to ensure brand consistency and quality when expanding rapidly in a global market?
Ensuring brand consistency in a new market requires a lot of training and communication. When JAC expanded in China, RozeMerie Cuevas took a hands-on approach to training her team. She was deeply involved in the process, personally overseeing the education of her staff on the brand’s DNA, quality standards, and customer interactions. RozeMerie relied heavily on visual and practical demonstrations, using fashion shows and store presentations to clearly communicate the brand’s identity. She attended store openings across China, to make sure that each launch reflected the brand. Through this meticulous and culturally aware approach, she was able to maintain a consistent and memorable brand experience across all JAC stores in China.
How do adaptability and cultural awareness drive international success?
In order to thrive in a new global market, entrepreneurs must understand the business customs and respect the culture. For example, in the fast-paced business landscape of China, decisions are implemented rapidly. RozeMerie learned that she had to make quick decisions, but with much careful consideration prior to communicating them out loud. In regards to culture, when introducing her brand to the Chinese market, RozeMerie quickly realized that while still staying true to her brand DNA, she had to make small adjustments to her designs, such as raising necklines, in order to appeal to her Chinese customers. Her openness to adapt and learn from her team in China allowed for a positive reception of her brand and fueled its expansion—establishing over 100 stores across major cities in just a few years.
Why must creative entrepreneurs understand the business side of running the brand?
Even if your aim is to focus on the design side, in order to be a successful creative entrepreneur, you need sufficient business knowledge to create long-term success. In the early stages of her career, she made mistakes in budgeting and inventory management, such as spending too much on certain materials or not controlling inventory effectively. She advises young designers who want to focus primarily on the design side of the business to educate themselves in business. Even if a designer wants to partner with someone to handle the business side, they should still have an understanding of basic finance and operations to avoid the common pitfalls of running a creative venture.
Chapters
05:25 The Origins of Jacqueline Conoir and the Brand's Unique Vision
11:54 Challenges Faced in the Early Days and Overcoming Them
21:55 Scaling the Business: Expanding into the Chinese Market
39:13 Advice for Aspiring Fashion Entrepreneurs: Building a Global Brand
Transcript
Glynis Tao
Today I have the pleasure of hosting an extraordinary guest. RozeMerie Cuevas is a true icon in the Canadian fashion industry. RozeMerie is the designer and founder behind two Canadian brands, Jacqueline Conoir and JAC by Jacqueline Conoir.
RozeMerie's fashion journey began in Paris, France, where she studied design and pattern making at the prestigious ESMOD School of Fashion. Over an impressive 36 year career, she has not only built iconic brands but also received numerous design influential women in business and business innovator awards in Canada.
In 2013 RozeMerie's vision took a global turn when she ventured into the Chinese market. A serendipitous meeting with a Chinese brand developer led to a groundbreaking partnership catapulting the JAC brand into China.
Within just three years, JAC expanded to 100 stores in AAA department stores across major cities in China, a testament to RozeMerie's exceptional talent and strategic foresight. The growth didn't stop there. In 2021, the JAC brand welcomed a strategic development partner, the founder of the Alfini Group as an important shareholder. This collaboration has strengthened the brand's product management, channel development, and operational capabilities, paving the way for even greater market recognition and share. The ultimate goal, to establish JAC as a top international designer brand, both in China and worldwide.
Welcome RozeMerie, it's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
RozeMerie Cuevas
Thanks, Glynis. Thank you for such a nice introduction. Very kind words. Thank you.
Glynis Tao
I had actually first heard of the Jacqueline Conroy brand in the early 90s when I was a student at Kwantlen College, which is now KPU.
RozeMerie Cuevas
You're now dating me.
Glynis Tao
Me too. But I just can't believe that when I was sitting down to write these interview questions, I was trying to just think back to the time when I first had heard of your name and your brand.
And so yeah, that long ago, which is crazy.
RozeMerie Cuevas
I often get calls from ladies or you know, some of our customers who find the product in vintage stores now. And they're like, I just found a Jacqueline Conoir in a vintage store. And they're just so excited about it. So yeah, we've been around for a long time. We've had an amazing journey.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And so now fast forward almost like 30 years later. We were sitting right next to each other at the BCAG meeting. So I turned over to you and asked you, how are you doing? You told me that you were living in China and you had met your business partner, you had moved to China and established your name brand in over a hundred retail stores there. So at that point I knew that I needed to have you on the podcast to share your story.
RozeMerie Cuevas
Yeah, it's been an incredible journey, I must say. I mean, you know, when I started at 22, I had no idea what would happen and where we would end up. But it has been an extraordinary, you know, a lot of challenges, a lot of, you know, triumphs. Just a really incredible journey. So yeah, I'm happy to share.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. So before we get into all that, let's go back to the early days and talk about the brand's origins. What inspired you to start JAC by Jacqueline Conoir, and how did you come up with the brand's unique vision?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, I guess the story starts, how did I get into fashion design, really? I never thought that I would be a fashion designer. It was not even an idea in my head that I could be a fashion designer. I simply sewed my own clothes when I was young and there were not a lot of fashion stores in Vancouver at the time.
My dad was very old fashioned. And so he didn't, you know, we weren't allowed to shop at what sweet 16 or whatever it was that was super fashionable at the time. So I just made my own clothes and then slowly I started making clothes for my friends. But I really never thought that was a, that was something that you would do as a career. I was actually going to school for commerce and economics. And I ended up in school and studying and I thought, what am I doing here?
But anyways, my cousin suggested that I do a fashion show at Richards on Richards, which was the hottest club in Vancouver at the time. And I thought, what? Fashion show me? No, it's impossible. But anyway, somehow he convinced me. So I arrived with my clothes, you know, in garbage bags. All the designers arrived with their clothes on rolling racks and pristine bags. And I was just mortified. I thought, I need to hightail it out of here.
But I didn't, I just stayed and the show went on and I was in the bathroom hugging the toilet bowl because I was so nervous. But at the end of the show, the women came into the bathroom and speaking of the fashion show and mentioning that the black and white scene was a designer that was only 18 years old. And they were talking about me and they called me a designer. And at that very moment, I was like, well, maybe I better go to school and see what this is all about. And so I packed my bags and off to Paris and went to ESMOD and it was one of the best schools in the world at that time, applied, accepted and away the journey went. So it was a really incredible start.
And then the way that we came up with the brand was my mother had passed away when I was five and her name was Jacqueline Conoir. And so the brand is actually in honor of her. So then when we rebranded to JAC, the brand name is J for Jacqueline Conoir, A for Andrea, my second daughter, and C for Celine, my first daughter. So it became JAC. So yeah, and the motto for JAC is JAC lives freely, leads by example, loves life, projects success, inspires, empowers action and knows exactly what she wants.
So the brand really was catering to empowering women, making them be the strongest that they could be, giving them the ability to walk into a room and really make a difference and allow their powerful inner side to shine. Let us worry about the exterior, you know. They focused on their ability to create success and be successful. And so that's how we created our career, our brand was all about empowering young women. And till today, we still have women who contact me by email saying they wore our garment all through the rise of their careers. And they went from being store managers to being CEOs and company owners.
So that really, really has been amazing to watch over the years. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that story and sort of the behind the brand's name. Because that was a question I was going to ask you. Where did the name Jacqueline Conoir come from?
RozeMerie Cuevas
So everyone wondered why is the designer RozeMerie Cuevas and the brand is Jacqueline Conoir or JAC. So really it was a dedication to my mom who passed away when I was very young.
Glynis Tao
Okay. That's very sweet.
RozeMerie Cuevas
A lot of logistical marketing, you know, challenges, but nevertheless, it's what we decided to do and I'm happy I did it.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And so from that vision that you started with, has it changed much from the original vision to what it is now?
It has always meant to be high, very high quality, reasonably priced, and affordable for most women. And it's always been there to, you know, really empower women, you know, by the way they dress to walk into a room and really show their presence. So Jacqueline Conoir, woman will, you know, walk into a room and you'll notice her.
I have customers emailing me saying that they'll wear a Jacqueline Conoir or a JAC outfit and people will stop them in the streets. So that's always really a great feeling. So it's a brand that has a particular DNA that just stands out just a little bit. So, yeah, women have been wearing it throughout their careers to advance themselves and make a presence when they walk into a room.
Glynis Tao
Well, the message must be strong enough to resonate with so many people, right? And touch them in a way that makes them feel that way. There's that connection between you and like the brand and themselves, and feeling embodying those, those feelings that makes them feel right?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
So let's call it talk about some of the challenges that you faced. What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced when you started the Jacqueline Conoir brand and how did you overcome them?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, I mean, I think as in every business challenges come and go and come and go and you tackle things. And I think every business has a seven year life cycle where, you know, you have to tackle all the challenges, but then you also have to reinvent yourself. So I think it's an ongoing situation.
But I think some of our major challenges in the beginning, the very, very beginning was everyone wanted international brands. No one wanted local. It was very different than today where everyone wants to support local. It was a completely different mindset in the 80s and the 90s. Everyone wanted Italian fashion, French, German, anything, or American, anything but Canadian.
And so it took us a while to establish a name for ourselves, establish that we are a great designer brand, that we had great quality, that we catered to the right demographic. And we actually made a name for ourselves by doing these really amazing feminine suits. Business suits in that time for women were very square and boxy, big shoulders.
And we came in with these very beautifully fitted shorter skirts and great fitted jackets with the shoulder pads. And immediately you could recognize a Jacqueline Conoir on the street. I think some of our challenge was to make ourselves identifiable, which we did by giving ourselves a particular DNA. We created massive events because the marketing was a bit challenging.
In the beginning, we couldn't get the media on board. And so we ended up creating amazing fashion shows and events, invited media, and slowly people started to really recognize the brand and want to be connected to it. Because everything we did, we did to the best that we could. So I think initially the challenges were getting people getting acceptance, getting media coverage, finding financing. So we were a very small business, so we needed to find financing.
So what we did is we continuously applied for competitions and we were nine time Matinee. At that time, the Matinee cigarette company used to sponsor the fashion industry, but now that's no longer acceptable. But in those days, we were nine time grant recipients and each time we won a grant, it was $35,000. So that was amazing as a designer to have that kind of injection of cash. So those are the three major challenges in the beginning. And then as we grew our business, the challenges were finding real estate that was affordable and then also growing our customer base in our VIP database.
And we did all of that through, again, really, really fabulous events and just make people feel like a family. That's continued for about 25 years. And then like anything, you know, you have a life cycle. And so in 2011, we rebranded and added JAC to our repertoire.
And it was a younger, edgier collection that attracted a different customer, but that also our existing customer really enjoyed as well. And so we added that brand and then in 2013 is when we decided to go global. And we were ready to really expand the brand. My kids had grown up. I was still very interested in fashion and didn't want to give up at that time.
And so we were looking for a partner to go international. We couldn't do it on our own. So that was another challenge.
Glynis Tao
So how big was your team at that time, at that point?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I would say we were 10 people. We were 10 people. A couple in our marketing department, maybe four or five people in our sales department. I did all the designing for so many years.
That's what I love to do. And then I had an assistant that I worked with constantly. So there was about 10, 11, 12 of us at any given time.
Glynis Tao
And did that just build gradually over time? Like from the inception of the brand, like originally were you the one doing everything?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Absolutely. My first few years I was doing the designing, the pattern making. I'm also a pattern drafter. So I was doing the patterns, the cutting of the fabric. I hired one sewer, one seamstress, but I was also sewing. I was sewing on buttons, just you name it. I was doing the fabric buying. I was doing the selling. When my daughter was born, I remember having her in the changing room and a little bucket seat and I'd sell and then I would design, then I would breastfeed, then I would, it was all really all encompassing. was really crazy, actually.
Glynis Tao
It's amazing, though, now looking back. What you have done. But I think, you know, I'm interested to know in terms of how you were able to balance the creativity part of and the more practical aspects of running a business because a lot of times designers come out of design school, fashion school, they're designers, they're not business people. So how did you manage that?
RozeMerie Cuevas
That's a really great question and something that all the young designers should actually understand is there's two parts to a business. There's the creative side and then there's the business side.
And you're right, a creative person doesn't actually understand the business side. So we made a lot of mistakes. We spent way too much money on so many things that we shouldn't have. We didn't keep our inventory under control. We bought things that were way too expensive for us and we should have held off. We should have bought the real estate that we were renting instead of continuing to rent. So there were many things that we should have done that would have put us in a better place in terms of business and profitability.
But again, you learn as you go. So any advice that I would give to a new young up and coming designer who, I mean, you choose either you want to be the creative person and just do that, or you want to be the creative person and have knowledge of the business side of things. Therefore you can actually understand when you do get a business partner or when you merge with someone or when you're working for someone else, regardless, then you understand the business side of it. You understand the expectation and limitations of the creativity.
So, but I mean, there's a lot of ways to be creative and stick to a budget. It doesn't mean because you need to stick to a budget that you can't be creative. I mean, we were extremely creative. We put on shows for 500, 600 people. And we did it on such a small budget, you know, so you get good at it, you try to manage it.
And my husband, my partner at that time, he was the one who actually managed all of our events. And he did a great job at that. And so we looked like we were a massive company. And yet we only had, you know, 5 to 10 people as a team.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, even though you were trying to figure it all out somehow you managed to make it all work.
RozeMerie Cuevas
Yeah. In normal circumstances, a designer will leave the business within the first three years. And so we made it past the first three years, then we made it past the next three years and then following three years and then 38 years later, we're still here. So it's baby steps. I think it's baby step by step.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Putting one foot in front of the other. Okay. So let's talk about scaling the business.
So from where you were then at that point, right, where you were more of a smaller startup, local brand, that time you were still mostly a Canadian brand based in Vancouver. Did you have retail stores then?
RozeMerie Cuevas
We did have retail stores. And we did them differently at different times. So sometimes we had a retail store on Granville Street. And then at one point we decided we were going to go off the main grid of retail streets. The rent became super expensive. And so I opened up a private 5000 square foot studio where we did all of our design and our sales and our shows. It was a multipurpose, huge warehouse space, which was very innovative at the time. And everyone just got on board and loved the experience. It was a shopping experience. We did little mini trends and shows and so on. So it was really fantastic.
But by about 2013, 2011, the manufacturing in Vancouver had really started to disappear. And so we were having trouble finding manufacturers to produce our kind of product. And so we really had to, we had a choice. We either had to find other places to manufacture our products, alternative manufacturing facilities or locations, or we just shut her down.
We weren't big enough to attract a large manufacturer, let's say in China or in other parts of the world, we just didn't have the quantity. And so we were stuck. So at that time we either were going to go bigger or we were going to just shut it down.
And so we tried a to meet up with a few different investors and the different partners. And it just so happened that we managed to meet a really great couple who had just landed in Vancouver and they were looking to meet like-minded people. And we were in the fashion industry. And so they came around and viewed our product, viewed our shows and they invited me back to China to just to see what their manufacturing facility was like.
And I said, look, let me bring the brand. Let's just see what happens when it's over there. And so we brought the brand over and showcased the brand to about 200 buyers and people jumped on board. And very quickly we decided we were going to be partners and off I went to Shanghai and to Hangzhou and that's where we set up the brand and very quickly we expanded. Everything happens in China speed over in China. It's very fast. So either you're on or you're off so within four years, actually we expanded to 110 stores. That was very quick.
Glynis Tao
Sounds like it all happened very quickly.
RozeMerie Cuevas
It was either we jump on board and try it or shut down the business because of the lack of manufacturing facility.
Glynis Tao
So this all happened out of this need where you were thinking like you needed to look for manufacturing. But you didn't think it would actually turn into what it is now like having over 100.
RozeMerie Cuevas
We were not thinking that we would actually expand that quickly. I had no idea it could actually happen that quickly. And we were happy with the business that we had. It was a great business. was giving us a really great lifestyle you know, the community supported the local design and it was just a great little business. And the idea of having it go international, obviously was something that we always wanted to do, but we really just didn't know it would happen at that time.
And so it just happened really by accident, not by accident. We really worked hard to make it happen. I brought the two rolling racks over. I asked them to let me put the product into their fashion show and made a real statement. And people really got on board with the brand. But initially the first three days when we were there, I was sitting there with two rolling racks in a huge sales meeting with 200 buyers and no one came over because they were busy buying the other brands. And then finally, after the third day, I thought, okay, I've got to do something. I have to get their attention somehow. So I went over and grabbed a few of the ladies and a few of the buyers. And I said, look, come over, take a look at the brand. And of course they were terrified of me because I was a foreigner.
At that time there weren't that many foreigners in China. But anyways, somehow we started communicating and they tried on the product, they loved the product before you know it, everyone had come over to the two rolling racks. And before you know it, my partner came over and said, let's do business. What can we do here? And so that's how it happened really. And then very quickly, four years later, we had 110 stores, but it really took a lot of work, a lot of work.
Glynis Tao
It didn't feel quick like that, right? Like, that's kind of the part that I want to get to, like really the meaty stuff. What really happened in between those years, like from when you first landed, set your foot in China, presented to 200 buyers, you know, did your thing and impress them, obviously. I'm sure your experience came into play here, right?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I mean, absolutely. I know the brand, I have a particular DNA for the brand. I was able to speak to women that I actually couldn't communicate with because of the language barrier. So I had the ability to communicate the DNA of the brand somehow. I don't know how I did it through visual fashion shows and so on. But also I was able to dress the women and give them a look. And they came out of the changing room feeling like different women, very powerful. And that's what the DNA of the brand did and does.
And so anyways, that was part of it. But then, you know, we negotiated an agreement and our agreement was a three page agreement and a handshake. I didn't go in with like a thousand page legal document. We didn't focus on that. We just focused on step by step. Can we get the brand being manufactured here? Can we design it here? Can I design 180 styles four times a year?
Because we had quadrupled the size of the collection. Is all of this possible? And so with a three page agreement and a handshake, you're relying on each partner to do their part. So I did my part, which was creating the creative look, the DNA of the brand, training the team in China, doing presentations, designing the boutiques, going into the stores, promoting the product, doing the social media, everything that and anything that I could do, I was doing.
And it was also teaching because their whole idea of what a brand was, it was very different from my idea of what a brand was. Everything had to be spotless. Everything to the final detail had to be perfect. And that, you know, in China, things at that time were very efficient, cost effective, but attention to detail was not the first thing on the list.
And so that needed to be taught to the entire team and quality needed to be taught. And so there were a lot of things that I needed to teach the team. And so step by step, you know, we built the brand over in China and step by step, my partner opened one store, then another store, then another store. And to each of these stores, I would go and again promote the brands, be present to promote. So in order to actually promote the brand, I was traveling to all parts of China. So North China, South China, East, West, wherever we were opening stores. And, you know, sometimes it was freezing cold and sometimes it was like 45 degrees and it was incredible also to visit so many different places. So yeah, it was just an incredible journey, but working seven days a week and 15 hours a day was the norm actually.
Glynis Tao
Was that your first time going to China?
RozeMerie Cuevas
It was actually my second time. The first time I was invited to China with a delegation of about another 20 Canadian companies. That was about six years prior to that. Interestingly enough, I also had an offer to bring the brand to China at that time. But at that time I slapped them with a thousand page contract and it went nowhere.
So the second time around, I realized that I had to go in step by step and not, you know, scare them away with this. Not I’m a prima donna, go in holding all the cards. My tactics were a little bit different the second time.
Glynis Tao
So that's what I want to ask you about your scaling global expansion into the Chinese market. Now that you brought your brand into China and have your business partners on board and they're helping you open up stores, you're doing all this step by step, getting the brand out there and stuff. Did you have to like, do things differently? Like in terms of how you approach business here, because I mean, you did mention some of how they see what is a brand is slightly different than how they see brand here in North America or in Canada.
So what were some of the differences that you experienced during this whole process? And did you have to adapt your design process, your styles, the sizing to fit the Chinese market?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, there were. So when you do business in another country, I do think there are a lot of aspects that come into play. And you definitely need to hear the voice of the people of the country that you're selling in. Cultural differences played a huge role. Just a small example, I love white flowers. So anytime we have an event, the, you know, the room is full of white lilies. And, but in China, white is referred to as for funerals. So anytime you have white, everyone for a funeral will dress in white, which is totally the opposite of what we might do here in North America.
But in China, everyone dresses in white and there's a particular belt they wear and everything is white flowers and so on. And so when the team was telling me, you cannot have white flowers for an opening, I was just at the beginning, I was almost irritated as you know, why could I not have these white flowers? It's such a simple request. But, you know, sure enough, a week later, a few weeks later, I see a funeral procession, you know, going down the street and everyone is in white. And so I think I realized that I needed to respect. My team really wanted us to do well. And so the idea that they were giving me or the information they were feeding me was really to help us be able to do the best that we could and respect the cultural differences. You you don't want to be showing all white flowers when that makes reference to a funeral. And also the design of that particular belt, we often had belts in our dresses, yet, you know, when it's that kind of belt, it is also again referred to a funeral. So we eliminated the belts, we adjusted the flowers,
Another thing is the low cut front line. In China you can go in short, short hot pants as you possibly want, but there's no cleavage. So the neck lines were raised just a little bit. And so yes, of course we adjusted certain things because there are cultural differences and it's important to respect the country that you are in, but they're so minor. And it's not that they're not accepted in another country. It's just, you need to be aware of certain things so that you can adjust it. Maybe the design was like this. We just kind of made it around this area. So you balance things out.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So was there a big learning curve for you at that in the beginning?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Absolutely. The learning curve was tremendous. I also realized how fast things happen in China. And so I had to get on board making decisions very quickly. I would ask for something. Or I would just think about asking for something. And the next morning it was on my desk. And I hadn't thought about it clearly. And so I had to really think very, very carefully about what I asked for because it would be on my desk the next day.
Another huge challenge that I had to get used to in terms of manufacturing. So because China is very cost effective and less quality at that time and our team was very cost effective. So, you know, I would say I need this blouse and I need this print on this silk blouse and here's the sample, give me a price. I would get this top back, I would get the price, we would put it into production or you know, put it into sales, put it into production. And then a week later, the store manager would call and say, the customer washed the t -shirt or washed the silk top and the print is gone. So I'm like, wow, that's interesting. So I call the manufacturer, asking why the print had actually disappeared. And he said to me, well, you didn't tell me that the print needed to stay. If you had told me the print needed to stay for a few extra RMB, the print would have stayed.
And I was just, but isn't it common sense that the print should stay? But the way of thinking is completely different. The primary key at that time was the cost. So if you want to lower costs, well, the print may not stay. It may stay, but it may not stay. Now, if you identify quality as your number one item, then they'll give you a different price. So I had to really think about what I was asking for, how I was asking for it and be very clear on what I wanted. And so that was a very big learning curve. Where in things that we just assume here, you can't just assume over there.
Glynis Tao
You have to be very clear on what ask for and how you communicate that as well. So do you have any issues with the language? Do you speak Chinese or Shanghainese?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I've learned some Chinese, you know, the colors, the sizes, the garment types and categories and so on. But the actual language to speak, it's a very difficult language. I really try. But when you're working 18 hours a day, it's really hard to then learn a new language.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. But I guess if you're in that environment, maybe you pick it up.
RozeMerie Cuevas
A lot. And we built a team that actually spoke English.
Glynis Tao
How many other Canadian designers can you think of that you know?
RozeMerie Cuevas
There are a lot of small businesses, I know a few businesses that have gone over and tried like Aldo shoes went over and tried a few times. LaVie en Rose went over a few times to try but all didn't manage to get on board there. But then there are companies like Lululemon, they're very successful in expanding their products into the Chinese market. There's North Face, there's Arcteryx, there's Canada Goose. So mostly activewear and outdoor wear have been very successful in opening the market in China.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, because I'm just wondering, you know, what was it like to be a completely new brand, to just show up in another country and then just open up shop there, right? You're not known.
RozeMerie Cuevas
As a small designer, as an independent designer, it's really impossible to do what we did without a partner. It's very difficult unless you have really deep pockets but even then you need to know the business culture. And the business culture is very different. It's all about who you know and who you can connect to and how you can make yourself noticed. And there is a whole ton of government sponsorships for individuals who will partner with Chinese partners. And so there's a lot of tax breaks and rent incentives and subsidies that you can apply for when you actually have a partner.
There are a lot of ways to do business in China. You do need to figure out how to maneuver it all. And I have so much of that knowledge in my head and firsthand experience, so I'll be looking to guide other companies who are interested in going into that market.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. Because I think you would have a wealth of knowledge with that having experienced it. Actually, another part of this why I was so interested in reaching out to you, wanting to talk to you about your experience of bringing your brand into the global market was that I was talking to a friend of mine who's a local designer here based in Vancouver, and she's been doing it for a number of years. She's very strong technically, strong technical design, know, pattern making all that stuff. She's trying to break into the market here in Vancouver and having a hard time. She's got a strong brand DNA, it's got a particular look, but I'm like, I don't know if maybe this is just not something that's very Vancouver, like, you know here we're more laid back, West Coast lifestyle into more of the outdoor recreational stuff.
But I'm like, maybe you want to explore another market, like don't just limit yourself geographically to Vancouver. What would you say to someone like that?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, it's really hard, I'd have to see the product first to be able to make any advice or to give any advice, I think. I mean, it's a very tough industry, the fashion industry is super tough, and it's changed tremendously over the years, people's needs have changed, the way people spend money has changed, the way people go out has changed. And so I'd have to see the product first to understand the product and whether it's a viable product for a particular industry or community.
But I mean, we also had a tough time, a tough go at it at the beginning. I remember we had pasta for dinner every single night until we could get the brand going. And it really took us at least 10 years to get the brand really going and a really good customer base. But the way we did it is we just made designing and developing the brand part of our lifestyle. So we would do huge events and that would be our entertainment or we would, I don't know, I can't remember exactly how we did it, but every night we would invite customers to the boutique and we do special events. And I was just working all the time, all the time. There was no balance between life and vacation and this and that it was like seven, 15 hours a day for sure.
Glynis Tao
And that was before kids?
RozeMerie Cuevas
Well, it was before kids, during kids, with kids.
Glynis Tao
Everything in between. Yeah. You managed to make it work.
RozeMerie Cuevas
The fashion shows they came to all of our events. They were at the booth at this, you know, our studio after school. They were just part of it.
Glynis Tao
My goodness. Are your kids involved in your business at all?
RozeMerie Cuevas
No, they have their own careers. You know, they saw how difficult it is.
Glynis Tao
No, thanks.
RozeMerieCuevas
Yeah, you have to have the passion for the industry, the passion for the business, and if you don't, it is tough. I think to do this business, you have to really love fashion. You have to love what you do, be prepared to put in the time.
Glynis Tao
What personal qualities or skills do you believe have been most instrumental in your success as a founder?
RozeMerie Cuevas
I think I'm really strong at leading by example. I think that's one of my key reasons for success. I empower the team. I think that without your team, you're nothing. So really to be able to empower your team, put the team before yourself is really important. You have to have a lot of stamina and you have to really be able to inspire people and motivate people. I think you have to also believe in yourself and know exactly what you want and just go for it.
So those are all messages within our JAC message. So JAC lives freely, leads by example, loves life, projects success, inspires, empowers action and knows exactly what she wants. So that is the JAC woman. That's our JAC team. So no matter how you cut it, those are the important elements of knowing what it takes to be successful.
Glynis Tao
And those I guess core values or what you would say has been is woven into the JAC DNA brand DNA.
RozeMerieCuevas
And also surrounding yourself with people who believe in you and people who are strong individuals in what they do as well and so I definitely could not have done any of this all on my own. First, it's the people who are around me that were supportive, that helped, that were always there to lend a helping hand. And then there's the team who worked endless hours and really gave their all to make it a success. So I think, and it's a team effort, no one person does it individually. So I think when you acknowledge that, I think it's karma. Life is karma. You give out what you get back. And so that's what I believe is actually the key to any success.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Is there anything that you would have done differently in your journey with your business?
RozeMerieCuevas
If I would have done it again, I would have done everything possible to buy the real estate in which we were doing our retail stores. I think if I had to do it again, I would definitely buy the real estate. Instead of paying rent all those years, I would have done my best to manage to buy the buildings that we were renting. After all, real estate is what actually goes up in value tremendously.
Glynis Tao
Right. Any final advice that you would give to aspiring fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a global brand?
RozeMerieCuevas
Well, I think I would tell them they should talk to as many people as they can, speak to people who have experience and who have gone through the challenges. And although the challenges today are very different than they were maybe 20 years ago. There is a common thread so learn from the people who have already done it. Again, believe in yourself. Don't give up, but have a clear vision.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
RozeMerie Cuevas
You can post my email address. I'd be happy to take emails. No problem. Yeah. Thank you so much. And your brand Jacqueline Conoir brand is on Instagram and all social media.
RozeMerieCuevas
JAC is on Instagram. I have a Facebook JAC by JC or RozeMerie Cuevas. Also, I think I've given you all those links. You're welcome to post them. I'd be happy to speak with people if they need my help.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much, RozeMerie, for being here today and sharing your insight and knowledge into the fashion industry.
In this episode, Carol Shih, founder of Qode Space, a Shopify web development and creative agency, shares her journey and the ethos behind her business and community work. Her approachable and outgoing personality, combined with a deep understanding of the challenges and nuances of being an Asian female entrepreneur in tech, allows her to connect and uplift others who face similar challenges and experiences. Not only does Carol share valuable advice for e-commerce business owners, she also shares about the impact of creating meaningful connections, embracing one's identity, and openly giving and asking for help from peers in the industry and wise mentors. As she balances her professional goals with motherhood, Carol also shares her honest perspective around “wanting it all” and how certain aspects of American Westernized culture can create challenges for mom entrepreneurs.
About Carol Shih
Carol Shih is an Australian-Taiwanese immigrant and the founder of Qode Space, a female and minority-owned web development agency. With a focus on Quality, Community, Transparency, and Purpose, Carol is committed to fostering inclusivity in the tech industry for women and minority leaders. She aims to balance the industry by delivering outstanding and high-quality design development work for e-commerce business owners. Additionally, Carol serves as a senior partner for Major Asians, an organization dedicated to providing exclusive and unique branding strategies to the AAPI community.
Leaning on your network and mentors can provide valuable support and insights as a founder.
The vision and mission of a company should align with its core values and target audience.
Understanding customer behavior through data analysis is crucial for effective website development.
Avoid the common mistake of trying to replicate competitors without considering your own unique customer base. Using data and analytics is crucial for making informed creative and development decisions.
Balancing design aesthetics with conversion optimization is a challenge, but it's important to prioritize functionality and best practices for better conversion rates.
Having mentors and a supportive community is essential for overcoming entrepreneurial challenges.
American Westernized culture which tends to be more individualistic than other cultures can create challenges of isolation for mom entrepreneurs who think they have to do it all.
Qode Space aims to continue supporting e-commerce clients for web development as well as be an incubator for young females in tech, and support Asian-founded brands.
The A Major Asians podcast highlights and supports Asian-founded brands and aims to create a more inclusive community.
Interview themes
How does being in a community benefit entrepreneurs both professionally and personally?
Carol’s community, including peers and mentors, has played a crucial role in her journey. She relies heavily on a network of female entrepreneurs and industry experts, and has found that mutual support and advice have been essential in overcoming challenges. Her network provides her with resources, guidance, and a collective of like-minded individuals who collaborate to navigate the complexities of entrepreneurship together.
As a mother, Carol says she “wants it all”, to be a successful business owner, a good mom, and serving her community. As an Asian immigrant to the US, she observed that in American Westernized culture, there is a lot of personal space and people who want to keep to themselves—which in turn creates isolation for female founders who feel they have to “do it all”. She credits her “village” (partner who is a hands-on dad, friends who offer to babysit, helpful professional network) for enabling her to manage her professional and personal life effectively.
Why should entrepreneurs spend and invest in market research?
Investing in market research to look at data and analytics allows you to make informed creative and development decisions. Carol stresses that data analysis in business, particularly in user behavior, is essential for understanding customer interactions with your website, such as where users click, linger, or fail to add items to the cart. Many brand owners invest heavily in creating visually appealing content for platforms like TikTok and Instagram without knowing if it effectively attracts and engages users or improves sales conversions. Entrepreneurs often make the common mistake of trying to replicate competitors without considering their own unique customer base. Carol advises businesses to focus on analyzing and understanding one's own data rather than comparing with competitors.
What can entrepreneurs do about their strengths and weaknesses in order to build a successful business?
Carol advises entrepreneurs to assess their skills honestly, identify gaps, and seek out partners or employees who can complement their abilities. Recognize your limitations and borrow the strengths of others to create a more balanced and effective team. Focus on what you do best so that you can maximize productivity and efficiency in those areas.
For example, while Carol excels at networking and business development, she recognizes her limitations in finance and technical project management. To compensate, she partners with individuals who excel in these areas. This strategy not only strengthens her business by covering all bases effectively but also frees her to devote more energy to her areas of expertise, driving growth and innovation.
How does personal experience as an immigrant to the US and Asian culture impact business and purpose?
Carol initially moved to the U.S. from Australia at 19, aiming to expand her opportunities. Her professional journey began in the digital marketing agency world, heavily involved with fashion e-commerce. After gaining extensive experience and realizing the underrepresentation of Asian and female leaders at the top tiers of businesses, she felt compelled to take control of her own destiny. This realization led her to join and eventually take over Qode Space in 2018, aiming to break through the glass ceilings she encountered and drive change within the tech industry.
Carol envisions transforming Qode Space into an incubator for young women in tech, emphasizing the need for enhanced STEM education in North America. She advocates for programs that engage girls in coding, SEO, and data analytics, aiming to empower a new generation of female tech leaders by providing essential skills and knowledge.
Furthermore, Carol plans to devote more time to A Major Asian Podcast. The platform highlights the unique challenges and successes within the Asian American and Pacific Islander (AAPI) community. It allows Asian entrepreneurs and leaders to share their experiences, challenging stereotypes and celebrating achievements. The podcast seeks to inspire and empower its listeners by promoting a deeper understanding of the diverse identities within the AAPI community.
Chapters
00:00 Overcoming Challenges and Leaning on the Network
10:13 The Vision and Mission of Qode Space
15:26 The Common Mistake of Replicating Competitors
29:39 Using Data and Analytics to Inform Creative and Development Decisions
32:57 Balancing Design Aesthetics with Conversion Optimization
38:37 The Importance of Mentors and Community Support
43:53 Impact of American Westernized culture on mom entrepreneurs
46:40 Future vision for Qode Space
50:49 Major Asians: Highlighting and Supporting Asian-Founded Brands
Transcript
Carol Shih
You know, it's a constant three wheel problem that keeps coming up. And I think that how do I overcome it? There's many different ways. One, I utilize my community. I think a lot of us are on texting basis for that reason. I'm open to sharing my challenges and I find a lot of female founders doing the same thing. So I always say, it's kind of like your phone a friend list. I would text you like, my gosh, this is happening to me. Do you have an SOW issue? Can I share?
And I really lean on my mentors as well. I try to gather a lot of very knowledgeable mentors in my industry. And I lean on them to give me some insights, whether or not it's a growing pain of mine or it's a personal challenge when it comes to becoming an entrepreneur. So it's leaning on my network and leaning on the shortness of my knowledge and gaining more from the people around me.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Carol Shi is an Australian Taiwanese immigrant and founder of Qode Space, a female and minority owned web development agency. With a focus on quality, community, transparency and purpose, Carol is committed to fostering inclusivity in the tech industry for women and minority leaders. She aims to balance the industry by delivering outstanding and high quality design development work for e-commerce business owners.
Additionally, Carol serves as a senior partner for Major Asians, an organization dedicated to providing exclusive and unique branding strategies to the AAPI community.
Welcome, Carol. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Carol Shih
Thank you so much, Glynis. You did such a great job introduction and for a lot of these guests, I think I want to bring you everywhere I go now. Like, you're such a good intro.
Glynis Tao
I'll help you do your intros. If you want me to. I don't know. Thank you. I've never been given that compliment. So I'll take it. We had met through the 10th house, which is a membership community founded by Rebecca Minkoff and Ali Wyatt. That's part of the female founder collective. We chatted a few times and really hit it off. One of the things that really struck me about you is your outgoing personality that's very open and approachable.
You're like one of those people who's funny and easy to get along with and you make people feel at ease.
Carol Shih
Thank you. I, to be honest, you and I have been connecting for so long, I forgot how we met. So good, good note to bring back to 10th House.
Glynis Tao
No, I had to do some digging there.
Carol Shih
But yeah, and I did remember it stood out because 10th House was such a big organization with so many female founders. And one, it was easy for you and I to spot each other because we were both in tech. And two, we were also one of the few that are Asian and female founders in the group, I feel like. So I don't know, I feel like you and I connected right away there, but thank you for the compliment. I am known to be quite the talker. And I think that's why I got invited to your podcast.
Glynis Tao
And you're also a mompreneur like me too. You have a little boy, right? And how old is he?
Carol Shih
Yeah, I have a little boy that's about two and a half, almost three. And I am also in my second trimester welcoming a second one soon.
Glynis Tao
Congratulations.
Carol Shih
Thank you.
Glynis Tao
So we're going to be talking more about balancing business with motherhood a little later on in this podcast. But first, let's talk about you. Something I recently found out about you is that you are super connected. You're like a super connected person. Like you've introduced me to a few really awesome people in your network. You come across to me as being extroverted. Are you an extrovert? Would you say?
Carol Shih
That's a good question. People think that way. But in order to be perceived as an extrovert is not just, you know, you're very outgoing, but I think that as an extrovert, you depend on that based on how you gain energy. And to be honest, even though my husband's very quiet, he's actually more extroverted because he likes to be with people and he gains energy when he's outside. Whereas I have the spark of energy to go and network and connect with people. But then I want to be at home three days straight and talk to nobody.
So I don't know, I think it's an introvert extrovert kind of a thing. But but I am a super connector. Because I feel like it started off when I was an immigrant, and I'm still an immigrant. I'm Australian Taiwanese. And I came to the States when I was 19. And I realized that when I come here with no family, I don't have anyone to depend on but myself and my network and my community. So I was very big in joining in communities, being in part of organizations. Even when I was in college, I was like the Taiwan Student Association president because I really want to be inclusive and bring people like me together. And I guess that extended to my career. And I just found a lot of success when I bring in the right people and connect people to the right groups. And it's, it's a passion of mine. And I think I can still see that.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So it's something that you saw as a need that you needed to do, I guess, when you first moved to the States, and just kind of became more natural to you. And then you built your community and network that way.
Carol Shih
Yeah. I mean, I came in and I think the label that I got was I'm a FOB, fresh off the boat. I speak fluent English. I went to an American school in Taiwan. But I don't know anything about the American culture, lingo, slang, how to use a credit card. I came from a country that only uses cash, right? So a lot of times how I survive is asking questions, be shamelessly asking questions.
And I start to realize that's kind of what community is for when you build yourself around good friends, people you trust. Some people use this like a church group, some people use this like different organizations. And those are your kind of safety net to ask these dumb questions. And of course, back in the day, not gonna share our age group, but we didn't have Google to always give you the answers. So we have the neighborhood and the people around you to kind of support you and give you some tips. So yeah, I find that very valuable and I still do. I still think that helping people is the most genuine way to build long-term relationships.
Glynis Tao
And so you still apply that to your business. Like, do you have any tips to give to someone who, you know, wants to start building their network?
Carol Shih
Yeah, I think that I work a lot with brand owners, business owners, and I always tell them like, listen, let's say you are a brand owner for a shoe company. You are an expert at making shoes, which means that your network is probably through textile production manufacturer, right? You might be an expert in all that, but that's not part of just doing business, right? You also have to know 3PL. You have to know, you know, maybe some development work, web development, or like e-commerce, marketing. Like there's all sorts of things that's outside of your wheelhouse and you just simply can't do it all.
As much as you want to be a unicorn, if you spend time and try to go outside of your expertise, you really stretch yourself too thin. And I think the best way to approach it as a business owner is to recognize number one, your weakness and your strength. And once you know that, my suggestion is find the people around you that will fill in your weakness.
Like for me, I'm like you said, I'm very good at networking. I'm very great at business development and sales per se, but, maybe I'm not great at finance. I am not good at like maybe understanding project management when it comes to technical skills internally. So I have to lean on a great partner that can really fill in my weakness.
And I think that recognition, I found that very early on in my career to understand like, I need somebody like you who understands SEO and I need a good partnership. So then when clients ask me, hey, Carol, do you have anybody that you know that can do SEO? Then I know where to pull you in. So I think you and I already see a lot of examples of how we can work together based on our weaknesses and strengths.
Glynis Tao
So true. So, let's take a little step back and talk about starting your company, Qode Space. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and what inspired you to start Qode Space?
Carol Shih
Great question. So like I said, I came to the States when I was 19 and I'm an Australian citizen. And I knew that early on I wanted to stay in America to expand the opportunities. So in order to do that, I picked a very broad major in order to apply from working visa all the way to getting a green card. And so I picked communication and marketing. And while I was doing all of that, I had to start applying for a job right after my senior year in college. And it was very difficult because even though it's a very broad major, I have a lot of options. Not a lot of corporate companies supported work visa sponsorship, as well as green card. So it has to be very specific. And I was very lucky and I'm still grateful today because I fell into the digital marketing agency world. And at the time that digital agency was heavily invested in fashion e-commerce. So I then dove right into fashion, which was also one of my passions at the time.
Prior to that, I interned at Louis Vuitton. And so that was an easy step in for me to understand the fashion life cycle. And then I step into fashion e-commerce where I touch a lot of big brands such as the Juicy Coutures of the world, Seven for All Mankind, Splendid Alamos, especially a lot of denim brands because that's where the digital agency was growing from. So the Paige, the Hudsons that was born in LA, I was able to touch that as an e-commerce business from front end to back end, meaning like I was involved in studio production. I was involved in front end, back end, warehouse production, as well as marketing, SEO, paid search, paid ads. And I became an account director there.[
After seven years, I touched more than like 40, 50 brands, including beauty and fashion, some CPGs as well. And that's kind of how I gained all my experience. And then after that, of course, there's rise and fall of digital agency. Unfortunately, I got laid off due to the, I don't know, was it the political climate at the time or was it just how, you know, businesses get acquired, but I was let go. And then I worked at Alibaba for also a year and I gained a lot of cross-border experiences.
And after that, I kind of hit an epiphany. I realized that, you know, I work for so many years tirelessly without vacation. I finally got my green card obtained, but you know, I'm really working hard for another brand, for somebody else. And people like me and like you who are Asian and female, I don't see a lot of us at the top. I don't see us at advisory boards. I don't see us as CEOs, C levels. I always see us as middle management and we work so hard. And when it's time to cut budget and when it's time to let people go, we are always the one on the chopping board. And it was very hurtful for me because it kind of hit that, this is where my glass ceiling is. This is where I cannot move forward anymore. And so that was really hurtful and.
You know, again, through luck, while I was looking for a job in between, Qode Space was actually started by two developers, and they were great developers, but they didn't have any connection when it comes to building a business, networking, building in leads. So they were like, hey, Carol, you know, why don't you come forward and help us out? And then gave me a little equity. And that was 2018. And then before we know it, the two founders actually exited and I took on Qode Space in all, and I also found another partner, also a mom and also minority.
We really aligned on our core values and we rebranded Qode Space two years ago and it's been flying off since.
So it's a fantastic journey and I learned so much and as well as for myself and as well as how that industry works right now.
Glynis Tao
Amazing story. Wow. Thank you. I didn't know all of that background on it. I didn't know that you had acquired the company. Okay, so what were some of the initial challenges you faced when you started Qode Space? And how did you overcome them?
Carol Shih
My goodness, Glynis, how do we even? That's the big question.
Glynis Tao
Let's get those out of the way.
Carol Shih
You and I talk about this, right? I think being especially an agency owner, we worry about three things. It's client, sales and employees. So it's like always playing whack-a-mole. You're either worried about your sales pipeline. You're like, how do I survive next month? Right. Or you worry about the current clients complaining or you have to update or fix your operational system. There might be a pricing issue. There might be you know, technical issues within your services that you're providing. And if everything goes well, you might have an employee issue who's telling you like, I need a raise. I want more from this company or, you know, it's a constant, constant, a three wheel problem that keeps coming up.
And I think how do I overcome it? There's many different ways. One, I utilize my community. I think a lot of us are texting basis for that reason. I'm open to sharing my challenges and I find a lot of female founders doing the same thing. So I always say it's kind of like your phone a friend list. I would text you like, my gosh, this is happening to me. Do you have an SOW issue? Can I share? Like, can you share your insight to me? Or, and I really lean on my mentors as well. I try to gather a lot of very knowledgeable mentors in my industry and I lean on them to give me some insights, whether or not it's a growing pain of mine or it's a personal challenge when it comes to becoming an entrepreneur. So honestly, it goes back to what we talked about in the beginning. It's leaning on my network and leaning on the shortness of my knowledge and gaining more from the people around me.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that's so interesting. And important to be able to have a community and network people who you can turn to for support. I'm just wondering, like, women seem to reach out more maybe, and share their problems, maybe more so than men would. I'm just guessing because sometimes I think men maybe it's harder for them to kind of admit that, I need help with something, but in the case of women, I find that almost all the women I know, women business owners are just there to help one another and to support one another. And there's just like so many like now, fortunately, like communities, groups, just like the 10th house, right? I was talking about earlier that has all these people there that not allowed us to meet, right? And now, feel like we're like peers to one another as well. And we're sort of on that texting basis, which is, it's nice, right?
Carol Shih
Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's also culture. I mean, in the beginning, it was difficult to be vulnerable and admit that you don't know something, especially in our world as female founders and as Asians. We're always taught, at least in my culture in Taiwanese, it's like, hey, you're a girl, shut up and go to the corner and just do what you're supposed to do.
But it's hard to raise your hand and be like, hey, I need help. How do I do this? What does this mean? How do I get to the next level? And I think it's trial and error. The more I do it, the more, just like you said, these female founders just gather and lean in and be like, I got you.
Let me help you, let's go on a Zoom call and I'll share everything with you. No gatekeeping, let me just share my insight. And that was so heartwarming. And I realized, like, I need to do the same thing. The more I extend myself to help, the more help comes my way as well. And you're so right. It is that female founder community that I found a lot of comfort and also found a lot of success.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. Let's just go talk about, okay, I want to ask you about your company's vision and mission statement. Because I saw that it's, you have it on your website. Do you want to talk about that? What is your mission and vision of Qode Space? And how has it evolved since its inception or has it evolved?
Carol Shih
It definitely evolved because one, the founders changed. And two, we kind of honed in on our branding and realized that we need to step out and put a lot more emphasis on who we are and who we would like to serve. And I think that the uniqueness of being in the tech industry and in the web development industry, like we're not just doing marketing or social ads, where it's a little bit easier to market.
We are actually experts in web development, which means we are doing engineering work, development work, which is a very foreign ground for a lot of owners, right? Because when it comes to development, it's always like, you just, you know, zeros and ones. And a lot of times there's a lot of miscommunication as well as translation issues.
And that's kind of where I come in is to bridge that gap because I understand both business owner perspective, business perspective, and then I also understand development and engineering progress and process. So to bridge that gap, I think we kind of stand out. Number one, we are all female founders and we have extensive knowledge when it comes to development work. This is not just a men's world where everybody is in computer science, but there is a high rise of women that's in the tech world right now that have great knowledge, especially like my partner, her background used to be in SpaceX and she manages a team of developers as an excellent quality assurance. Nothing passes her eyes. She's the best quality assurance person I've ever met. And having her as a partner really gave me more confidence to sell who we are. And I think that that identity really brought us into our core values. And one of the biggest ones we added as of last year when we were rebranding is transparency.
So on top of quality being first, that's the reason why Qode Space starts with a Q is we put quality first, which is something that in the development world is very challenging. Cause you never know, people are like, I built a beautiful website. And then we flip and look under the hood. It's like, man, this was garbage. This is like Jenga. Like if I add another line of code, your entire website breaks.
And you're an SEO expert, you see through that immediately when you see how taggings work, product tagging, everything is a mess because they charge high, they shorten their timeline and whether they did it cheap or did it expensive, nobody knows what development really means. So I really pushed out quality.
And we talk about community, which is how our entire network was set up. And then we added being purposeful, who we intentionally wanna work with. And that's where, again, our female and minority identity comes in. We really wanna give out our talent and our skill sets to those that are more in need, who don't always get the eyes of the big agencies out there. And then we added the fourth core value, which is transparency. So, you know, a lot of people, especially you're talking about challenges, a lot of people from the same industry people have laughed at me when they looked at my proposal and be like, you're showing too much Carol. You're telling them way too much of our secrets because line item by line item. I tell them exactly how many hours it's going to take. Even though it's an estimate, it's like building a house. Yes. Building this bathroom could take like, you know, five to 10 days, right?
but I still give out that range for people to understand this is the effort that's gonna put out. I'm not everybody does that. They padded hours at random places, they lie or they add other services that might not even take that long, but then they'll say that's 40 hours, but you and I both know it takes 10 minutes because they're lying or being deceitful to people that doesn't understand development.
So I see through a lot of that working in the tech industry and I really, hone in and really, really kind of push for that four major core value, which brings into our statements that are and mission statement is that we're here to support help, even though our approach is a little different. And even though our margins not be as high, but we're not here to grow fast and big, we're here to grow long term as a boutique agency that serves.
Glynis Tao
That's great. So your your four core values, quality, community, purpose and transparency, right? Yes, so great values. I just wanted to ask you a question just sort of like, what is a common mistake that you see for most econ brands when it comes to their website development work? Like sort of the back end stuff, you've sort of touched on it earlier and I find having too many apps installed slows down their site. And, you know, most of them are not necessary. Like, is there anything else that you have seen?
Carol Shih
Yeah, good question. I think like, even when you say multiple apps, like way too many have really drags down the website. But I think it comes from the mindset of a business owner. And I see a lot of business owners get triggered when their competitor is doing something new. So for example, if you're a pet brand, like you're, you're selling pet products and you see your competitor coming out with like a new feature, like, Ooh, a bundle or like a buy one, get one off or something like that. Or they did a refresh or rethink or something like that, that in your eyes you might feel like, my gosh, you're making so much money because of this new update.
And then they come to people like us as a third party service provider and be like, I want the same thing. And the first thing I'll always say is number one, you don't know how much they invested. And number two, you don't know how much they are putting into researching what their customer wants.
And this happens so often because even if your competitor is selling the same thing as you, your customer behavior could still be different because you have different marketing strategies, you have different approaches and you have different eyes on your brand. So I would always say, and this is something that's so important and I'm still continue to tell my current clients and the new clients that I see is that spend and invest in market research.
User behavior research is so important right now. Data is key. Your data should be telling you exactly where to go. If you don't know how to build your website, you don't know what features to add, you don't know what apps to do, and you're just twiddling your thumb, and let me tell you, your marketing team will always ask you to spend, because you spend more, you get more. That's just how the marketing world works. Because you're fighting before the Q4 big hit holiday season,
Glynis Tao
So everybody wants you to know like, hey, spend now, spend now. And then so you can gain a tub of the funnel. So then by Q4, you have enough email lists so you can blast and then you have drip campaigns and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're all true, but at the same time, Q1, Q2, and Q3 even towards the end is a great time for you to data layer your website, making sure that your GA4, your Google Analytics or any reporting you're there.
You have a data analyst to tell you what those data mean. That's not your expert. Find somebody to tell you what is my user behavior? Who is he? Who is she? Where is she clicking? Where is she not adding to cart? Where is she lingering too long? Is she clicking onto the videos? And a lot of brand owners spend so much money on branding, content making, because of TikTok and Instagram.
They're just spending so much money on creating beautiful photos and beautiful videos. But do you know if people like it? Do you know if people aren't clicking into it? Do you know it's helping your conversion? And that's where the user behavior analysis comes in. So I always say, don't look at what your competitor is doing because they will panic you. It's just like back in school, right? Everybody else is getting a certain grade and you're like, why am I getting this? Before panicking and start self-doubting.
Look at where your mistakes are. That's pivot accordingly. And because everybody is a little bit different. So I would say that's like one of the most common things is I have to have a come to Jesus talk with a lot of my, my clients and say, okay, let's just, let's take a deep breath. Let's do some breath work at the zoom meeting. And number one is let's look at your Google analytics. Let's pull that up and see what that looks like month over month. And then we can use that data to see how you wanna tweak the website accordingly.
Glynis Tao
I think that's one of the big things that you mentioned on your site, I noticed that put an emphasis on that your agency is mission. It's like you're driven by data, right? Like you use data and analytics to inform creative decisions and development decisions, the creative designs and development designs.
Carol Shih
Yeah, I don't feel good when I tell people to do something that I know down the road they're going to change it again. I mean, money is scarce right now. It's not like back in the day, fashion people just have like tons of money to just change things, you know? I always say, let's do some A-B testing before you put all your eggs in the basket. Right? Let's change it up and see if this landing page works better than the other. Let's see if this add to cart button moving it up is going to help you with your conversion, right?
And I always say that because I think that it's maybe it's the Asian in me, spending money, you got to spend it smart, instead of throwing money at it and hoping it works.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so true. And I think with maybe a lot of designers, creatives, especially they're very emotional and very have the emotional connection, perhaps more to their brand and design. So maybe it is very hard for them to step outside and look at things more from an objective point of view. But, you know, it's business at the end of the day, they need to make sales. So they need a website that converts.
Carol Shih
I mean, all the pretty stuff, you know, that you see is important. The pictures, but you're so right. It's the emotional talk always, always because it's your baby. Number one, nobody wants to hear that your baby's ugly, right? Nobody wants to hear that. But sometimes it's our job, right? To be like, listen, we got to do something about this. Like, I know you think it's beautiful, but this is not a magazine spread. This is an e -commerce website. And there's still such a thing as best practices. We still have to follow that rule because it connects to conversion, right? Unless you're like the Gucci, the Louis Vuitton's of the world, you don't care and your website is more of a brochure and you have tons of stores that you can still drive in traffic. Like we really look at, the science. We need to look at the data, right? So yeah, the emotional part of it is so true.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it's a hard part for my job as well to have to crack and overcome it as well. I just kind of have to be gentle. You can't say someone's baby's ugly. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, you just gotta tell them the truth. Somebody has to break it to them.
Carol Shih
Yeah, I'm a little too straightforward sometimes and I have to be like, so I just wanted to let you know. Show you some examples. So I feel you.
Glynis Tao
Most of your clients when they come to you, are they looking for a new site or are they looking to refresh or are they looking to replatform?
Carol Shih
I feel like a lot of the brand owners, going back to what we're saying, their expertise lies within their product. So when they come to us, a lot of times there are probably, there might be some glowing issues, like glaring issues about their website. Like, I'm just not converting and I don't understand why. Or I know my performance is really bad because I opened up my mobile site and 60, 70% of your traffic always goes through your mobile. And we would run a free audit, which by the way, audience that are listening right now, we do offer free audit. And it has been a tremendous help for a lot of business owners because it's a report showing you where your website health is at.
And when you take a look at that, that's basically letting you know what issues you have on your website. And that is when we have more conversation. But I want to say a lot of times clients come to us with a glaring issue that they must fix immediately. And that issue usually leads to 10 other issues. It's whether the previous development team didn't really do a good job building your foundation or you know, you over exceeded like you and I talked about, you just downloaded way too many apps and you don't understand that certain theme could help you eliminate half of those apps cheaper because apps on Shopify store could be very expensive.
One of them's $30, $40, $100 per month. And then before you know it, you're spending like 20K a month on all these apps when you can spend $300 for a theme that has half of those features up there. Then that project became re-theming because that re-theming project is gonna help you save money down the road. So a lot of these explanations, a lot of the planning is what I do is, okay, let's stop for a bit. Let's look at your whole P&L and financial planning for 2024, 2025. If you go this route, this is how much you're gonna spend. If you go the other route and just make us do better cleanup, it will be a patchwork. And then a year later, you and I are gonna have another phone call about how to spend more to save more.
So yeah, it really varies. I always go back to do an audit first. One, let's do an app audit. And I want to tell you, nine out of ten times, too many apps. It's like the biggest one. I was like, all right, we got to cancel 20 of these apps. You really don't need it. And then number two, it's always tied to performance.
Glynis Tao
So interesting. I kind of think of it as like, you know, when you start to have car problems, it starts with this, like, it's the cars making a funny sound. And then you're like, shoot, what's that? You know, I better go take it to the mechanic and get it checked out. And you're like the mechanic, right? And they bring this, this website to you. And they're like, I have a glaring issue. Obviously, it's so do we, and then you open it up and look under the hood.
Carol Shih
I always tell my clients, I was like, I feel like I'm like a plumber because you never go and call a plumber until shit hits the fan.
Glynis Tao
Literally. Yeah.
Carol Shih
And by the time I'm in, first of all, plumbers visit you and we already have to pay them whether or not there's an issue or not. Just for them to show up. Yeah. And that's kind of how we are. I have to get a developer that knows, understands the function of a website, pop up of the hood. And you know, a lot of times this is not a problem. We just have to fix your piping. You know, not a big deal. Couple hours, we got you. But majority of the time, because the shit hit the fan already. It's like, you got a molding issue. You got pipeline disconnection. You have this and this, this and this. And you know, and it never feels good as a business owner to realize that I really need to use this bathroom and how long is this gonna take and how much is it gonna be?
So it's always a big headache and they treat us really like a plumber. It's like, they're just like, can we go anywhere cheaper? I'm like, yeah, of course, of course. There's a whole country, India, that you can find that is a lot cheaper. But again, it goes back to quality, right? And transparency and how much trust we have with each other to know that I'm really here thinking for your good. And I'm building a much better foundation so that in the future, when you call me, it's for maintenance, not because really things are flying around.
Glynis Tao
So I just wanted to go back and talking about, you know, your business and sort of overcoming challenges part. If you had, do you have any mentors or people that have worked with you throughout your entrepreneurial journey? Who has been your biggest supporter and mentor through your entrepreneurial journey and how important is the community? We've kind of talked about how important it is already how your community support has been in overcoming challenges?
Carol Shih
Yes, I have mentors, but I also like to call them my office therapists. Because a lot of times, you know, it's during panic moments, right? When we're like, my gosh, what am I going to do? And in my previous digital agency, I came across a female VP that was always so even keen and I watched her as she is in a room full of dominant men and she can speak so powerfully and so confidently and that draws me near her. And I think one of the questions I asked her was like, how do I be like you one day and not let my anxiety or my insecurity drive my conversation with my team? Then we talked a lot more about, you know, managing up, right? Managing our own insecurities and really putting a mirror in front of myself and understanding where I'm vulnerable and where I need help as a leader. But I think like every season, the support that you need, especially entrepreneurship, we keep growing, we push ourselves to a new level. Your mentors and the people that you need around you keep changing.
And I think that's one of the best things I love about networking is I also learn from my peers. And like right now, I joined the senior partner in the firm, Major Future, and then we branch out to do Major Asians. That group also was so beneficial for me because I then learned about the beginning stages of building a brand, like brand DNA, understanding brand story.
And then later on, they start building a website, which is where I come in. So I realized that my expertise lies within about stage three, stage four of a branding cycle. Whereas the branding part of the DNAs and beginning of stages and you then come in more like stage one, stage two. So then my mentors change and my expertise has to change and I continue to learn. So in that field, I try to find people that are like-minded.
I ask a lot of questions. Again, I think I'm relentless in asking questions. I pull people in like you and I go, hey, let's get on a call. I just wanna ask you some questions about what else I can learn more and how can we mutually help each other out. So it's a constant learning stage being an entrepreneur in my opinion.
Glynis Tao
Constant learning and constant juggling because not only do you have a business, you also have a little kid as well. So it's like, I feel this constant juggle of not feeling guilty when you have to do your work and then you're like, not being able to pay attention and play with my kid right now, because I got to get this thing done or I'm like with my kid, but then I'm like, shoot, I got to apply back to this client. So how do you balance running your business with the demands of motherhood?
Carol Shih
I think that was like the most common question I get. And I don't know if I particularly like that question of like, hey, how do you do it all? Because men don't get asked that question. Men don't really get asked that question when they're an entrepreneur. How do you do it all? You're a dad and you're like an entrepreneur. You do everything.
Honestly, when I get asked that question, I think about my husband. He also works from home and I am so grateful, so lucky that he's a very involved dad. He's the one who picks him up. He also cooks and he is very involved in the day to day of my child. Hence the reason why you and I can get on calls and I can pick up sales calls or go to conferences and moderate events at night and all that.
And when you say like, how do I deal with guilt? I think the mom guilt never leaves, right? It's like, we're never doing enough. And that's something, it's biological. Like the baby comes out of us, we know how they feel. And it's, even if I'm not there, I'm thinking about them, right? And now I'm pregnant again. One, I'm like, why did I do this again? Did I forget how difficult this is? I'm gonna do this all over again. But it's also part of like, you know, a certain age group, we want our kid to have siblings, we still envision being that family that we always wanted. And it's like, you want it all.
I don't think it's like, how do you do it all? I think it's because we want it all. We wanna be a business owner. We wanna be a great mom. We wanna be a great leader. We wanna be a good friend, you know? And how do we balance that out? It's like every day is a little bit different. And if you have an amazing partner and you have amazing community, that's why they say it takes a village.
And the American Westernized culture, I know you're Canadian, I'm very much looking forward to seeing if I can move there. But I am already Australian, I already have two passports, maybe I need to calm down. But I truly think that I learned that the hard way about American culture is that there's a lot of personal space, people wanna keep to themselves, but that part really has been hurtful to a lot of female founders is that, you gotta do it all. And I just don't believe that. And I feel like it's all about your community and your village that helps you out. I have great friends that are willing to step in and be like, hey, you and your husband should go take a break. We're happy to watch your kids, you know? And that's like without grandparents' help as well.
So I don't do it all, but I want it all. And so every day it's whack-a-mole. Like today I might not be a hundred percent of a mom, but I know I did amazing being a founder. And some days I am very tired being a founder, pushing for leads, getting conversions, right? But I know today I spent a lot of time with my son in the backyard and we played catch. And I think in his eyes, I scored a hundred percent.
So you just have to, you know, tell yourself, don't score yourself too low. I think you're doing the best you can. And that's what we strive for in life.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. I love that. I think I need to find a better way to rephrase that question in terms of the balancing cart, but maybe it's more of an integration. It's like part of your life, you know, your work, your life, family, it's like, things that you want, you want to do it all. But how do you get that done? How are you, you know, and some, some way, somehow, we figure it out. Like, you know, not like it kids come with a manual, right? They're not born with a how to guide how to parent, how to, you know, so, you know, I have to give credit to all those hardworking mommas out there.
Carol Shih
Not easy. Yeah. You're on the same boat.
Glynis Tao
Let me just ask you quickly about the Major Asian podcast that you are working on. So how did this all come about? How did you get started on it? And why was the reason like that you got involved in this project?
So Major Asians stems from the Major Futures Foundation and organization. And they are a New York founded branding firm with a handful of very talented senior partners. And I came in as a new senior partner around, I wanna say like three months ago. And I think the couple of Asians in there, found us to have a lot of mutual connections as well as mutual interests in really being inclusive in supporting Asian founded brands. And we also see a huge opportunity where Asian brands such as the Korea, Singapore, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong's of the world that want to enter into the North America region, especially like with the buying power of North America.
I think a lot of Asians brands are looking to see, well, you know what, if you're already manufacturing in our country for so long, we want a piece of that pie as well. And you and I both know like when we go back and visit Asia, we always want to bring some of these brands back. We're like, my God, this face mask is amazing. Or like the snack is amazing. We want to like, you know, blow it up here in LA or in Vancouver or in like all these different places that has a large population of Asians.
And especially during AAPI month, we talked so much about how to, I think one of our quotes are, you know, rising tide, raise all boats. So, and there's also a saying in Chinese that, you know, the good nutrient flows within your own family. You don't really share it out. And so that kind of brings us to hone in on this Asian community of how do we support each other to elevate the brands that want to expand in the North American region. And I think there's also culturally a trust that is unspoken, especially with Asian communities. It's like, if you're Korean and then you bump into somebody in, let's say, like you said, like Canada or somewhere that's like the diversity is not as widespread and you see another Korean. Just like me, when I see a Taiwanese in the middle of a random place in LA and we don't find ourselves very often. It's like immediate connection, immediate trust. And that's just kind of how that connection works. And we're kind of rolling off of that. So that's kind of how Major Asians came about. And that podcast we are starting is focusing on highlighting a lot of Asian brands that are starting off as a startup here in the United States and in Canada and what their journey looks like and really just highlight a lot of these brand owners and product owners and see where they're going and how can we support as a community.
Glynis Tao
Amazing work that you're doing and I love that and I feel like there is that connection just between us as well, both as being you know, Asian women, business owners. I mean, I don't think it doesn't matter what geographically where you are, whether you're American or Canadian, I still feel like we face a lot of the same things, same issues. And so that's great that you are part of this podcast to really spread that awareness and talking, actually just talking about these issues that the AAPI community is facing and addressing that through your podcast, using it as a platform, right? To bring that awareness and have those conversations often don't talk about?
Carol Shih
Always. I think, like, especially as Asians, we suck at talking about our own problems. We suck at asking for help. Right. And so I was telling my partner, so I was like, we just got to ask some tough questions. And I remember I was at an Asian founding network event, and I was hosting my small group. And I kind of had to force people and say, like, hey, go around and tell each other, how can we support? Why are you here in this networking event? And then you kind of see everybody like, well, you know, we're just here to network. And I had to stop and I go, no, no, no, no, no. You and I both know you came in here for something, right? Do you need an investor? Are you looking for a web developer? Are you looking for an expert? Let's be bold and ask because you never know what you're going to receive.
And then you start seeing the people start opening up. And I think that's such a cultural thing, right? No matter what Asian you are, we're always about being respectful. Don't ask, don't be too bold. But I think that's a mentality we need to change because one, people can't read your mind. And two, we need to overcome that culture in order for us to grow to another level. So it's time for us to really stand up, ask ourselves what we want and how can we get the universe to help us out by speaking out loud about what we need.
Glynis Tao
Cheers. Here's to that, you know? I want to give you a high five. It's so hard to have those conversations. And even as Asian women ourselves, kind of like, yeah, we know that's there, but we just don't want to talk about it. Let's just kind of pretend it's not really happening.
Carol Shih
And just not talk about it ever. And like, I love one of my mentors, she told me she's like, what's the worst is going to happen? I don't know, we're gonna get no, then you get a no. And then you move on. And once you recognize the biggest damage, it's not your reputation, it’s just people going, sorry, I can't help. That's it. Let's keep asking.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it's an automatic no if you don't ask.
Carol Shih
See, you get it. We all get the concept, but it's hard to step out of your comfort zone.
Glynis Tao
It really is. And it's like taking me almost a lifetime to learn those lessons. Yeah, it's a process. But that's awesome. And before we we end off here, I want to ask you about your future plans for Qode Space and A Major Asian podcast. What do you see yourself, both your company and podcast? Where do you see yourself in the next five years?
Carol Shih
Five years is far. I'm a planner myself. I'm a Virgo and I love to plan. And I think the last couple of years being an entrepreneur, I learned to not plan too far because our long-term plan is like, I'm gonna be a millionaire and I'm gonna get in five years. But I think there's always that realistic step that you really need to plan out. And for me, the short-term is I am pregnant right now, I'm having a baby in November. So my biggest thing is I wanna take a maternity leave and really take care of myself because I need to make sure I am watered so that I'm able to provide for the team and for my family. So the biggest thing for the Qode Space future is looking for somebody to fill in my spot during maternity, which we already have things planned out.
But in the long-term, I see Qode Space really being an incubator for a lot of young females that want to learn more in tech. I am very big in education. I think that whether it's Canada or United States, there's a lot more investment that needs to happen in the STEM program to encourage girls to learn about coding, to learn about like what SEO is, what paid ads are, and a little bit deeper into data analytics, push them to do some computer science classes, you know, which is again, still an unpopular category in a lot of the educations.
So I see Qode Space continue to grow as a boutique agency. And I see myself investing a lot more time in A Major Asians because my passion personally is still to be very inclusive and support the people that look like me, that understands the struggle. Because I think being an immigrant here in the United States really taught me one, of course, the importance of community, but also to support. And I think that brings me so much joy when I see the younger version of me getting that help when I didn't have it back in the day. So that's kind of like always been my strive and my motivation to keep pushing on to do what I do.
Glynis Tao
So from that point, I just let me ask you one more question. What advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs based on your own experiences and lessons learned?
Carol Shih
I think that I always say this. If you're looking at your business, James Clear said, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And I think that's a quote that I really pulled close to my heart because I'm an operational and process person.
And I think that before you're thinking too far, like you said, where is your five-year, 10-year plan? I think before you even do that, you have to look at your systems in your business and see, is this system really going to lead me to that goal that I want? So one, asking for help, understanding your own weaknesses and surround yourself with people that will be willing to help you to kind of fulfill that weakness, but also really understands that your system, the process, your operations, everything should align with your long-term goals. So I truly live that by the heart.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Carol Shih
You can find me on LinkedIn. I do post quite a bit there. You can also add me on social. My social name is Carol Shih, but my Instagram name is K-A-R-O-L and Z as in zebra, karolz. And my husband is a photographer, so a lot of the photos is a lie. I do not always look like that in person. Glynis knows that, but yes, you can find me in a lot of places and you can also find me on QodeSpace.com when you contact us.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much, Carol, for being here today and talking to me, sharing your journey, your entrepreneurial journey with us. I had such a blast.
Carol Shih
Thank you so much. This is such a wonderful podcast. We'll be spreading the word for you and I appreciate your friendship and your partnership. It's been so great connecting with you.
Maggie Lord, founder of Rustic Wedding Chic, shares her journey of starting, scaling and selling her online publication while balancing motherhood. In this episode, you will learn about how Maggie started with blog writing and eventually worked with vendors in the wedding industry, diversified her revenue streams, and adopted new digital platforms to grow her audience, up until she sold the company to David’s Bridal. Maggie also talks about her current role as a strategic advisor to female-founded brands and shares her advice for aspiring entrepreneurs.
About Maggie Lord
Maggie Lord was an early pioneer in the online digital wedding media space, establishing her media company Rustic Wedding Chic in 2008. As a founder and CEO of Rustic Wedding Chic, Maggie led the company for 12 years before it was acquired by David’s Bridal in 2020. Maggie is also the author of six books. Today, Maggie has become a sought after strategic advisor to female founded brands allowing her to focus on sharing her knowledge and expertise with other like-minded entrepreneurs, startups, and small businesses. Maggie and her businesses have been featured in the New York Times, Fast Company, Forbes, Business Insider, Success Magazine, and much more.
Prioritizing and setting boundaries is key. When her children were younger, Maggie would tackle the most challenging business tasks during uninterrupted times, like during her children’s naps. Now that her children are all in school, she maximizes work productivity when they are out of the house so that she can fully engage with them when they are home—thus balancing professional commitments with quality family time.
Diversifying Revenue Streams
Having multiple revenue streams to buffer against market volatility is crucial for maintaining business sustainability and encouraging growth amid changing market conditions and consumer preferences. Rustic Wedding Chic initially relied on display ads. With the decline of ad effectiveness around 2013-2014, Maggie shifted towards branded content and affiliate marketing, then launched a vendor directory for rustic wedding services.
Starting a Business
Take the first step without overthinking the entire process. Start small, validate your idea, and gradually build from there. During her own wedding planning, Maggie identified a gap in the market which lacked digital resources for rustic weddings. She created Rustic Wedding Chic as a blog to fill this niche, gathering and sharing curated content and images from photographers to inspire and assist other brides. It quickly established a significant following due to the uniqueness and timeliness of her platform.
Scaling Sustainably
Focus on building a strong foundation before expansion, and master one area before adding new elements. Understanding the capacity for fulfilling increased demands is important to avoid overextension. Entrepreneurs should consider strategic timing and resource allocation to ensure that when opportunities for scaling arise, the business is prepared to handle them without compromising quality or operational stability.
Selling a Business
When preparing to sell, businesses can reach out to their ideal potential buyers. Maggie crafted a shortlist of potential buyers who could benefit from a direct relationship with her established audience. She contacted key decision-makers, sharing her intent to sell and explore possible synergies. These preparations allowed her to approach the sale thoughtfully, aligning with a buyer, David's Bridal, that matched her business’s needs and future growth potential.
Chapters
00:00 Balancing Motherhood and Entrepreneurship
09:32 Building an Online Presence
16:09 Diversifying Revenue Streams
36:37 Challenges for Entrepreneurs and the Role of a Strategic Advisor
46:22 Balancing Business and Family
53:59 Future Projects and Writing a Book on Business and Motherhood
Transcript
Maggie Lord
You know, the reason why I shifted to this after leaving David's was because I was so desperate as a, especially I was a young entrepreneur, right? I was like 27, 26, 27 when I launched Rustic Wedding Chic. You know, I was desperate over those years. If I could have had an advisor or, you know, quote unquote, business coach, someone who I met with a couple of times a month explained my challenges. I think I would have not woken up in the middle of the night so many times questioning, did I do this right? Is this the right direction for the company? You feel very isolated when you're an entrepreneur.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Maggie Lord was an early pioneer in the online digital wedding media space, establishing her media company Rustic Wedding Chic in 2008. As a founder and CEO of Rustic Wedding Chic, Maggie led the company for 12 years before it was acquired by David’s Bridal in 2020. Maggie is also the author of six books. Today, Maggie has become a sought after strategic advisor to female founded brands allowing her to focus on sharing her knowledge and expertise with other like-minded entrepreneurs, startups, and small businesses.
Maggie and her businesses have been featured in the New York Times, Fast Company, Forbes, Business Insider, Success Magazine, and much more. You can find full information on Maggie at maggielord.com.
Welcome, Maggie. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Maggie Lord
I'm so excited to be here.
Glynis Tao
So one of the reasons why I was interested in having you come on as a guest was because I wanted to learn about how you established yourself in the online digital wedding media space, sold your company to David's Bridal and became successful in business simultaneously while raising kids. Because I'm actually going through that myself and I only have one child. You have three boys, is that right?
Maggie Lord
I do, I have three little boys and yeah, it's certainly been an interesting wild ride to be an entrepreneur and have children. So I'm always open to sharing my thoughts about how people can do that the best because there's really, there's not a lot of playbooks that help you understand how you can do things successfully on both sides of that.
Glynis Tao
No, exactly. I mean, there's business books and then there's parenting books. Very rarely are they merge the two together. So I'm really glad that you're speaking about it. How old are your boys?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, so I have three and they're 13, nine and six. And so we've got a lot going on. And I think the most interesting thing is that because I was an entrepreneur before I had children, they've grown up only experiencing me as an entrepreneur, as a mom and watching me, you know, kind of dominate both sides of that, of being a mom and a business woman. But I think there's a lot of women who I've spoken to over the years who had children and then went on to do an entrepreneurial sort of journey for themselves. And I think it's sometimes harder to mesh those two things once you've kind of established being a mom first. So my kids have only known me as being, you know, my job has always been, some sort of entrepreneurial something.
Glynis Tao
Oh, that's great. I mean, it's sort of a role model to them, I guess.
Maggie Lord
Yeah, I love to share with them about, you know, entrepreneur ideas and things that they that you don't have to set up a formal company if you just have an idea. Like, I think it's important for kids to know that you can create a job that you have out of a dream or a passion or something.
And, you know, I tell them all the time my first entrepreneurial journey was when I was six and it was called Maggie Shell Shop. And I would go to the beach on the weekend and collect shells and then sell them. And I figured out very quickly, like that was endless inventory and it was free because I was taking it from the beach. It only cost my time, but then I could sell them.
And, you know, by the time I was in third grade, I was like selling binders to the girls in my class with like puffy paint pictures. And so I always had that like part of who I was and so when my kids come to me with like a crazy idea, I'm like, yeah, you're an entrepreneur. Of course you can do that. Why not?
Glynis Tao
Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that about you that you had that entrepreneur spirit ever since you were a kid. Do you think your boys will have do the same or any of them showing that sort of that side of them?
Maggie Lord
I think they will. I think a little bit, they're all very sports minded. Like if you ask them all today, they're all gonna be some sort of pro athlete when they grow up. But, you know, I think what is interesting is to allow kids to have fun with the very simple things like they wanna have a lemonade stand. Like that's fun. And yet there's like really good lessons of like, well, how much are you gonna charge? Because how much did it cost for you to buy the ingredients?
And, you know, so I think when my kids have ideas like that and I have one who he's nine and he has a little podcast and he just talks about sports. Like I was like, yeah, sure. We can buy some inexpensive equipment. Like, sure. So yeah, there's signs from them that, you know, at least they feel like it's a safe, fun thing that they can try.
Glynis Tao
Oh, that's great. Yeah. So I'm always interested to talk to other mompreneurs about how they did it. And you're living proof that it's possible to create a successful business while embracing motherhood.
During my research, I found out that you used to be a middle school science teacher. And when you were planning your wedding, you were frustrated by how hard it was to find inspiration except for in physical magazines. So you decided to create your own blog called Rustic Wedding Chic. And you were able to grow that business fairly quickly within a year or so after starting the blog and you were able to leave your teaching job. That's amazing.
Maggie Lord
Yeah, so, you know, as I walk people through what I did was that, you know, I was teaching at a middle school and, you know, enjoying it wasn't my passion, but I was also finishing getting my master's degree at the time. And so, you know, being a teacher and going, you know, going to school for a master's degree, like the time that you need to do both those things kind of worked out well.
So I enjoyed it for sure, but I'm obviously very entrepreneurial. I'm a very creative person. And so, when I got engaged to my husband, this is 2008. So there's no Pinterest, there's no Instagram. And we live in Connecticut. We were planning to have a very rustic lakeside wedding where my family has a summer house in Northern Wisconsin. And there was no way to communicate to the vendors what I was looking for, right? This is even if you go back, like this is...and not everybody had a smartphone. I had a Blackberry that took really grainy pictures. So I couldn't even email great ideas to my vendors. So I had to figure out a way to communicate what I was looking for. And I started finding really pretty pictures on photographers' websites. So if you're a wedding photographer, obviously you show off your work. So I would find those pictures and I was trying to email them to the vendors and I was like, there has to be a better way.
There was a handful of wedding blogs as we called them at the time, right? It was just more of like a personal blog. And I loved them and like Style Me Pretty was big at the time. But none of them kind of really filled the niche that I was going for. And so I started reaching out to wedding photographers and saying, I love this wedding that you have on your site. Could I, you know, I now have a, you know, a little blog called Rustic Wedding Chic just for, you know, rustic and barn sort of weddings. And they were very happy to share their photography because they want, you know, and I linked back to them. They wanted to be able to get their images out there. And, and so we quickly built a large collection or library of amazing images and weddings. And it really was almost, we had a readership like instantly. It was amazing.
So if you look at the wedding content world today, there's hundreds and thousands of places you can go for content. There was probably five or six back then. And so talk about being like right place, right time. I was definitely fueled by this passion of what a bride was struggling with to try to plan. And so we I quickly created this whole idea that like I could be this 360 planning tool for her where she could find resources and inspiration and vendors. You know, and because we were so early in the game, if you typed in rustic wedding, anything to Google, we were the first, you know, six, seven, eight things that would come up in Google for years. And so establishing ourselves at that time, it really was important. I would have had no way of knowing how saturated the wedding market would become with content, but obviously we were in it in an earlier time, which clearly helped why the brand took off the way it did.
Glynis Tao
That's amazing. And indirectly, you were doing SEO.
Maggie Lord
Yeah, no, it's funny. I mean, I, you know, doing a lot of consulting work now, like, you know, SEO is a part of everything and there, I didn't have a strategy for that particularly, you know, and I...
The clients that I work with now are at all different stages in their business journey, but like, I didn't create a business plan. I didn't sit down and say, how am I going to take over this niche? You know, like I just didn't, I, I kind of built it on what I, I was the perfect consumer because I was going through the stage actively of trying to plan a wedding. And so I was like, would I use this? Yes. Is this something I need that I can't find? Yes. So I didn't spend a lot of time creating major business plans and things and it just really unfolded quickly for us.
Glynis Tao
You identified a problem, which you had and came up with a solution.
Maggie Lord
Right, which is, as we all know, that's how the best companies and brands are built when they're solving a problem for someone.
Glynis Tao
So how did you identify your target audience and what strategies did you use to reach them? I mean, you said that there are very few blogs out there anyways at that time. So like, as soon as you launched, like, did you already start having people like readers join or did you have to like, did you do any kind of marketing around that or?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, I mean, we didn't do much marketing, to be honest, there was no like major launch, right? Like we set up a blog platform and had amazing pictures and it, you know, it was growing. But because we were so early to the game, like I said, if you typed in rustic wedding, anything to Google, we came up first. And so we were able to kind of get a very nice organic readership and didn't have to pay for, you know, to get the consumer to see us or to engage with us. And we were able to, you know, really talk about things in an organic fashion because they were finding us in this way.
You know, I will say there was a big turning point when Pinterest became a thing, Rustic Wedding Sheet jumped onto it very early. Like there was no Pinterest business yet. It was just like this Pinterest platform, you know, and someone invited me to be on the platform. And because back then you had to like get an invite from someone, I think. And that was a game changer because people started to find us by the time we sold, I think we had over 10 million monthly impressions of content just on Pinterest alone. Yes, Pinterest became a huge thing for us as we jumped on Instagram early too, because we knew it was like the visual, what we were really doing was inspiring the bride with visual content, right? And then of course, tangible resources that she needed, but the imagery was important. So we had a ton of readership come in through Pinterest and then later through Instagram as well.
Glynis Tao
Ok, because I really answered sort of the next question that I had about like, what were some of your most effective marketing strategies that you employ to scale your business? And it sounds like Pinterest and Instagram were the two platforms that helped support you and build that audience.
Maggie Lord
They did. And then one thing that I was really passionate about was because we were obviously like a digital first company I wanted to find ways to connect with the bride offline as well. So just about maybe two, two and a half years after launching the company, I landed my first publishing deal to write a book. And that was great because what I wanted to do was connect with her offline and online. And so, and it established us like me really being an expert in this area. So by having a book on the shelf at Barnes and Noble, and also having an online platform, that really helped expand our readership. I mean, when I wrote the first one, I had no, I didn't, I wrote six over the next couple of years, right?
I didn't think that it would be that vast, but it was really great because we were able to diversify how we were inspiring her. You know, and we went through a lot of different ways of being able to license our name to product. We did stationary cards with the company, you know. We did a lot of different things so that we were tackling kind of a lot of ways that we could inspire her and talk to her and help her with her wedding journey. So we were digital first, of course, but it was really a big plan of mine to be able to go and expand outside the digital space.
Glynis Tao
Okay. And how many rustic wedding sheet books did you end up publishing?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, so between 2012 was when the first book was released. And the last one that I wrote on weddings came out in 2019. So yeah, there was six total in that time frame.
Glynis Tao
Okay. Can you share a particular challenging period for Rustic Wedding Chic and how you navigated through it?
Maggie Lord
Yeah. So, you know, we really relied in the beginning, the revenue model for the company was having brands advertise with us, right? That were related to the wedding industry so that, you know, the bride could get everything that she needed. She'd come to us for inspiration, but so it was all about the ads. And we did phenomenal in the early days with just the display ads from, you know, served up through Google.
We, you know, I remember somebody said to me, you're sleeping at night and you're making money because if someone's on the site and they're clicking on ads. And it was true, we were printing money from that ad strategy.
And in about 2013, 14, people in the industry, if we all lived through it, would call it the ad apocalypse. Everything changed. Display ads were not producing revenue like they were. Brands were shifting to branded content, content on the site that they would pay for that for you to write blog posts. The consumer...also got very smart and stopped clicking on the display ads, right? They're like, it's a lot of noise. It's a lot of mess.
And so we had to pivot and change very quickly as we just watched every month, the revenue that we'd be making from the display ads would just go down, down, down, down. And at the same time, we had to shift to working with brands on branded content on the site. So we'd write a story about their wedding registry company or I mean, we worked with Macy's and Ikea and a million other different companies and they wanted their stuff to stand out differently. So we had to shift to that model.
And affiliate was starting to happen where you could talk about a product or a company and get affiliate kickback from it. And what I learned kind of going through this mess of thinking, oh my gosh, I can run this company for the next 20 years on just this revenue model, right? It looked like it would never break. And I have multiple friends in the same space that we kind of came up through the digital ranks together and everybody suffered from it. Every company had to shift and change.
But I think my biggest suggestion to people is that one, diversifying your revenue stream is always a good thing, right? Because you can't just rely on one always working forever. And so in 2013, we pivoted quickly and we did not have a vendor directory yet. I was fielding emails from bride saying, I'm looking for a barn wedding venue in Michigan. And I'm like, well, I live in Connecticut. I have no idea.
And there were some wedding directories out there, but they were very general. None of them focused just on this niche of the wedding industry, this rustic kind of barn country sort of feel. And I realized if I built it quickly, we would be able to, you know produce revenue from that stream as well. And we quickly, you know, onboarded like 2000 vendors signed up in like the first two weeks, right?
And so, you know, that we had to pivot and change over the years how our revenue was gonna be structured. So navigating through that and looking back, I would always tell companies or brands or entrepreneurs that I, you know, having a couple of different revenue streams is never a bad thing because if one isn't performing the way you want it to, you have others to fall back on. And I think that's something I keep in mind today and it's something I talk to all my clients that I consult with.
Glynis Tao
Okay, I'm really glad that you brought that up and explained how your revenue model worked and how you're able to generate income from the blog. So it was mainly in the beginning, display ads, right? Is that what you're saying? Like those banners that we see on blogs, right?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, so I mean, you could work with a couple of different networks and like, you know, there was a Google ad platform and there was one that was specific to just like the wedding industry at the time. And, you know, what we wanted to do was to really work with, to have great display ads that complimented why she was on our site, right? So it would be for wedding invitations or florals or wedding dresses or bridesmaids dresses, but she still came to us for kind of resources and inspiration and good content.
But when it shifted, we had to then work harder to sell those same placements from us, right? So brands wanted to have more control. And so, we had to go out to a brand and say, well, here's six different ways that you can advertise on our site. And so it just, it got a little bit more challenging than when you would just work in these great networks where they would just feed you great ads to put up. And then, you know, you were issued a check every month. It was amazing.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So that worked for a while and then kind of started not to not work.
Maggie Lord
Yeah. Industry wide that on all digital platforms, it just, you had to diversify. You couldn't just rely on display ads anymore. You know, there was so much that was changing, you know, with different, the way people search for things and how smart the consumer got. And brands wanted to have different ways of showcasing, you know, their product or their brand. So you had to just shift with the fact that that's where digital communication and advertising was going to move in a different direction. And we had to move with that.
Glynis Tao
Okay. And then so you came up with the idea of creating a directory or guide. Is that right?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, we started the rustic wedding sheet guide and it was vendors from across the country in different categories that could, you know, pay us a certain amount every month and you know, they could be showcased and have beautiful pictures and have all of their information listed. And they knew that they were getting a much more qualified bride looking at their content and looking at their site, as opposed to if they were listed on a general wedding, you know, information page where a bride might have zero interest in an outdoor barn sort of venue, but the brides who were coming and who were our reader, they were already interested. And so they were getting a much more qualified ride by spending their ad dollars with us.
Glynis Tao
Oh, okay. Yeah. So in a way, because you already established and you built this audience that's, you know, you're catering towards them. Right. And then so, okay, that really makes sense. And then so was the guide then mostly like your biggest like revenue?
Maggie Lord
It wasn't our biggest revenue. It was definitely a piece of it. I would say still the ad side of things was definitely the largest revenue piece. It's just, we had to switch from having some sort of network or communication group get feed us the display ads. And we worked individually with brands, right? So brands could come to us and say, what are the ways that we can advertise? And we could come up with a lot of different ways that we could work together.
So the advertising side of things, having the digital placements available for companies was definitely the number one revenue source for us.
Glynis Tao
Okay. And was influencer marketing around at that time?
Maggie Lord
I remember when it started, you know, and we, back in the day, we used to work with a company. Now it's like to know, it's like a whole different thing, but it was called reward style. And we could write an article about, you know, the 10 best bikinis for your honeymoon and link back out to these products. And we would get, you know, affiliate money that way. And it, it worked. The thing with affiliate that's really hard is that, you know, you have to, you don't make that much off of one affiliate link, right? So you've, you, you have to find other ways. Like it's definitely can be a piece of someone's revenue model, but it's really hard for that to be the only thing.
So we did dabble in it, we did play with it, refined it over the years, but we found that brands really still just wanted to spend their ad dollars with us. So after more than a decade of growing your wedding website, in 2020 you decided you were ready to sell the business. So what led you to the decision to sell Rustic Wedding Chic to David's Bridal?
Just an FYI for folks who are outside of North America, David's Bridal is the largest American Bridal store chain with more than 300 stores located across the US, Canada and UK.
Maggie Lord
Yeah, it is a question I get asked often, obviously. It was a big decision because I started the company. We never took on investors. The company ran off its own profit. I didn't have a large team. And so it had been successful for more than 10 years at that point. Over the years, I had a lot of interest would pop up every once in a while from competitors would reach out, lifestyle, digital groups would reach out asking if we were interested in selling. And for whatever reason, those just kind of like weren't the right time for us or I didn't feel like it was the right fit or was getting some sort of like crazy low ball offer. And I was very happy running rustic wedding sheet, because I was able to balance motherhood and I loved being an entrepreneur and I loved really owning my own kind of journey and being in charge of my own destiny a little bit.
But before 2020, in 2019, I kind of crafted this idea. I came to my husband and I was like, okay, I have done it all. I've written six books, we have millions of monthly readers, we've licensed our name, I've done so much and I've done it all now, having multiple kids over the time. And I was just like, this is the point that we're at, that either we have to grow significantly and I need to bring in a lot more staff and we need to start really stretching the boundaries of where we're going. Cause I don't think it can just stay where it is. It was successful, but it wasn't, it needed to grow.
And I always equate it, I'm like, it's like the child who is ready to go to college, but instead stays in like their parents' basement. Like it needed to go to college and it needed to go onto its next big thing. Like it was time. I was like, I've raised it, it's gotta go, it's gotta go to college. It's gotta go onto its next big life. Or it's just gonna kind of stay stifled a little bit. So my husband was like, okay, that sounds great, you know, whatever.
And I went down the path with a couple of companies that I thought was gonna be a great fit and we got really far down the line and acquisitions are tricky and hard and there's a lot of people who have a lot of thoughts on both sides. And I got close to a deal with one company that I thought was gonna just be a dream. I loved the CEO and it just, the stars didn't align at that time with their business. They wanted it to happen, I wanted it to happen and there was just a couple of bigger things that the pieces didn't come together the way we wanted. And so that was a little bit of a heartbreak that was in the fall of 2019.
And after that, I was like, you know what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna put my short list together. Like who do I think would be a great person to purchase us? And for what reason? Like I don't think it can be another content site. They probably have all the content they need. Like who else can benefit from the direct relationship we have with brides? And so I put a short list together and I emailed a handful of people in power at those companies that either some I knew some I had, you know, didn't know at all.
And just said, look, I think we're going to go on the market, but before we do, I'd love to see if there's, if there's a way that we can make an acquisition work between us. Because I probably I had given myself, I had no idea what was coming in 2020, right? But I had said by the spring of 2020, I'll probably go on the open market. So if anyone wants to buy us, they can, but it would be ideal if it was done privately before that.
So in January of 2020, I kind of created, like I said, this short list, started emailing some people, had some interest. And I got an email back from the leadership at David's Bridal. And we had a meeting in Manhattan on like March 6th, none of us knowing the world was gonna shut down. And just as heartbroken as I was that that other deal fell through, when I had this first meeting, the stars really did seem to align for what David's bridal was looking for. You know, I had long thought David's was a great resource for our brides. We talked about them a lot, but we didn't have a pre-established relationship at that time. They had a lot of new leadership come on. Um, when I met with them and you know, it was like a year or so they had a lot of leadership changes, a lot of fresh ideas, a lot of smart, interesting people in the room and the stars really did kind of align.
COVID hit like two weeks later, like there was, my kids weren't in school, like everything was kind of shut down and I didn't know what was gonna happen but we were able to continue our discussions and we got it done.
Glynis Tao
Wow, just sounded like the perfect match. And I mean, was it something that they were looking for as well? Like, were they on the lookout for it, like, before you reached out to them? And then they just suddenly went, wow. Or was that something like you, you know, planted the seed and then got them thinking about it?
Maggie Lord
I think it was a little bit of both. I think they, you know, most companies, if they, if they establish a relationship with a customer at one kind of point in a journey, any way you can move up funnel is like really important and mostly in wedding dress shopping, they would interact with the bride around nine, 10 months before her wedding day. Whereas we at Rustic Wedding Chic, they would start reading us 12 to 14 months before her wedding day. So, you know, I think any brand would want to move up funnel of how they can start communicating with a bride.
You know, I think they certainly understood how digital content can help their company. So I think it was a little bit of like, I'm sure they had thought about it. I don't think they were actively looking for an acquisition at the time, but I brought this idea to them and we kind of saw how all the pieces could go together.
Glynis Tao
And just a quick question, how big was your team at that time?
Maggie Lord
Yeah. So again, when I say that I sold in 2020, everyone assumes that it was like COVID related, but when the wheels were in motion, it was all before COVID. And so we were still kind of running at our regular capacity of I was the editor in chief and CEO. I had someone who oversaw our community and the vendor directory for us. And then from there, I had probably about six contract employees who handled different things, things from social media to some editorial, to advertising and other things like that. So I would say, including some contract and part-time employees, we were a team of about six.
Glynis Tao
Were you the one creating most of the content and writing all the blogs? I did. I wrote 99.9 % of all the content for 12 years, which is why, like, I was a little tired, not gonna lie. You know, creating, we pushed out two new features, two new published posts every day, Monday through Friday for 12 years. There was a couple of times that I brought in a slight little help to write some articles here and there. They never performed as well. They, their style, I would always, there was a reason it was like, it wasn't up to my standards or, oh, I wouldn't have, you know, pick this picture or whatever. And so that is why it gets hard to run a company when it's, when our readership was in the millions monthly, because they're constantly looking for new things. And so to keep pushing out the high level of content that we were doing, which is where I saw that it needed to have a larger team and kind of go on to its next.
Glynis Tao
Okay. And that's sort of the reason why you decided that that was the next step that you needed to take in order for this business to grow. And be able to sustain itself because I guess you really took it as far as you could go with what you had and your resources that you had at the time, right? But you saw that it had more potential.
Maggie Lord
Exactly, and that's kind of how I felt. And I was very proud of what we had accomplished for all those years. But, you know, I, people, it was interesting. People were like, is it going to be hard for you? It was your first baby. Like, how are you going to, like, are you going to be sad? And I was like, no, I am proud of what I created and I loved it. I like, you know, breathed rustic wedding chic for all those years. And it was very much, of course, like part of my identity, but I kind of felt like, you know, as opposed to feeling like, oh, it's my first baby. I'm so sad that it's going to like leave me. I felt like the proud mom who was like, yes, go fulfill your life. Go do those important things that you need to do.
So I was, I was very, very happy to hand it over to start a new journey. I went to work for David's for a couple of years, which was a great, I had never worked in corporate America. I've always either been a teacher or owned my own company. And so I embraced kind of the whole different world that working for a large corporation like that is. And I learned a lot and had a lot of interesting conversations and a lot of different views on things and a peek into, you know, larger business world and, you know, was happy to spend that time there, but then also very, very happy to get back to doing something more entrepreneurial.
Glynis Tao
Okay. Like, how was it like for you when you were handing things off? Because you know how you were saying earlier about when you wrote 99 .9 % of the content and having to do, you know, give it to someone else to do it like, how were you involved in that process and just being able to get it right, you know, the way that you wanted it to continue?
Maggie Lord
Because it was COVID, it was such a weird time and weddings, right? Like there were no weddings at that time, everything was shut down. So it was like people weren't craving as much content. So my transition with David's was very seamless, as in like I transferred everything over. Like I you know, transfer of knowledge, explain why the bride uses us and how, you know, things should be written and all of that. And then I just started a whole different job at David's completely, right?
And so it was kind of like one day I was like thinking everything about rustic wedding chic. And then I started a new job at David's and I was on a completely different path. So, you know, it was, it was a good transfer of knowledge of like, this is why someone likes rustic wedding chic. And these are the reasons that someone would want to continue to read Rustic Wedding Chic. But because of the landscape that was happening, both in retail with the David's Bride of retail stores, obviously during COVID was different. And then the way the bride was planning was all different. It was a little hectic. I kind of like handed things off. And like I said, I was often running as an executive at David's in a completely different direction.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, interesting time as well. I guess nobody would have expected. So now you work as a strategic advisor to female founded brands. What are some of the common challenges that you see entrepreneurs facing? How do you advise them to overcome these obstacles?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, it's a good question. I think, you know, the reason why I shifted to this after leaving David's was because I was so desperate as a, especially I was a young entrepreneur, right? I was like 27, 26, 27 when I launched Rustic Wedding Chic. You know, I was desperate over those years if I could have had an advisor or, you know, quote unquote, business coach, someone who I met with a couple of times a month explained to my challenges. I think I would have not woken up in the middle of the night so many times questioning. Did I do this right? Is this the right direction for the company?
You feel very isolated when you're an entrepreneur, especially even if you have a team. Most female entrepreneurs that I work with, their team, they're great and filled with passion, but they're very junior, right? You don't often see, you know, especially if you're a solo entrepreneur and you don't have a full C-suite built out, you're making decisions based on what you think.
And like, I can't tell you the amount of times at dinner I said to my husband, what do you think about this? And like he'd say, what do I know about the wedding industry? I don't know. I think it's a good idea. And so I think why it works so well for me to work with other female founders is that I was so desperate to figure out, you know, am I doing the right thing? You know, is this a good decision? Is this a good business decision? That I think the challenge I see the most from entrepreneurs is they just don't have the infrastructure to support where they're going and what they're doing from someone who's kind of lived through it and gotten to the level that I'm at, right?
So they can talk to their team, but they don't have an external sort of person to speak to. So I think that's the biggest challenge I see with most of the people I work with. And then it's you know, very isolating and hard. And one of my clients the other day said, well, I was thinking of hiring a therapist, but I actually just hired you instead. You've become like my entrepreneurial therapist, right? Like a therapist for entrepreneurs because it's someone to talk to about the full picture.
Because I've also lived through, I had a one week maternity leave with all of my children. Um, cause I had no one else to run the company. And I always said, if I'm not running it, it's not making money. Right. So it can't just sit there and be dormant. Like it. It very much had to continue. And so I've lived through the challenges of having, you know, one kid, two kids, three kids, um, you know, the overwhelming sense of think the biggest thing I hear is like, I'm just one person. So how can I be running my company, pushing out social media content, you know, like looking for new ideas.
Like there's 150 things as a founder and CEO that you want to, you should be doing every day and you can't, you're at capacity, right? And so I work a lot with my clients about where is the areas you should be spending your time and energy on things. And I told a client the other day, she said, do you think this is a good idea? I said, if it takes less than 45 minutes of your time, sure, go explore that new idea, but give it 45 minutes and then transition back to, you know, your day to day core business.
Glynis Tao
So what advice would you give to entrepreneurs who are looking to start and scale a business? And would you also talk about like how is your experience as a founder influenced your approach as a strategic advisor and business coach?
Maggie Lord
So I think if somebody wants to start something, I think the first step is the hardest, but just do it, right? I think a lot of people get caught up in, well, I need to create an LLC and I have to have a business plan and I need investors. And that may all be true. You may need all of those things, but that shouldn't hold you back from taking the first step.
I, you know, people tell me all the time, oh, I have this great idea for a thing, but I don't even know how I would start. And I was like, do you have a name? And then there's most of the time, like, oh, I do have a name. I had this great name that I came up with. Let's just start there. So, you know, I think with entrepreneurs, I always say, if you have something you want to start, take some small steps forward. Don't look at the big long road ahead of you of, oh, well, I've got to get a bank account and business taxes and an accountant and like, it's scary, it's too much. Just look at what you can do and start with to then take those next steps. So that's my advice if you're gonna start something.
If you wanna scale, I think it's about focusing in on where you're scaling and realistically how you can scale. Because as an entrepreneur, I'm very much I subscribe to the idea of like, let's try a lot of things and let's see what happens and let's see what sticks. I would come up with an idea for something on rustic wedding chic and I could create a whole new page on the platform that day if I wanted to. But I think sometimes when you're trying to scale a business, you'll look at too many options. So someone might say, oh, I'm gonna start selling my product on TikTok shop and Instagram shop and I'm gonna start doing this and that.
And I'm like, that may all be the right way to go about it. But I would start with one and then build, right? So if you're going to scale your brand, let's pick one avenue that you're going to start with, kind of do it well, and then add on those other pieces. Because if you are a founder and an entrepreneur and you've founded a brand and you're, let's just even say you're doing okay, you know, that is very much like the foundation of a house.
You can't build the other layers until, you have a really good base for what it is. And then just, you know, adding on gradually so that when you do start to scale one, you can do it in a way that you can handle that scale that you created because I have worked with companies and brands who they are lightning in a bottle, right? And it's the most amazing thing and like, and it blows up and gets a ton of attention but they actually weren't prepared. They don't have enough inventory or something like that.
So when you scale, I always say you have to do it and create those levels of scaling in a way that you know you're prepared for what the ideal outcome is. Cause if you say, Oh, I'm going to go start selling on TikTok shop and your stuff starts selling, but you end up, you know, you end up with 500 orders and you only have 12 products. That's a problem.
Glynis Tao
Okay, so I like the metaphor that you use. It's like building a business like building a house, right? First start with this foundation. Be good at one thing, really good at one thing, and then build from up from there. Build up the layers. And then, yeah, also having the right infrastructure as well, right? Because, I mean, being successful is great, but are you able to deliver?
Maggie Lord
Yeah. I think that happens a lot where, you know, especially if you're going to be in an e-comm business or something where like you have to be prepared for, if you want to scale, you have to be prepared for what that scale looks like from, you know, a financial standpoint, but also from like a human resources standpoint, right? If you start selling 5,000 of something, but you make every single one by hand, like that's not it's not a great way to be able to, it's not sustainable scale.
Glynis Tao
And what types of businesses do you work with currently? Are they, you know, sole partners? Are they service type businesses? Are they product based businesses?
Maggie Lord
It's a little all over the map, which is nice. I like, I have a wide variety of clients right now. Some are, you know, in the product business, which is great. Um, CPG, I have other, um, amazing clients who are in like services or like their own sort of, um, consulting brands. Um, it's, it's really, it's all over the place, which I love. And it's been really nice that most of the work that I get is through word of mouth from someone who says, oh, I've been working with this amazing advisor. And you know, I've learned x, y, z, and then they say like, Oh, who's that? And then that person just refers them to me. And that's it's really nice to know, because it means that like, I am really helping them on their their journey.
Glynis Tao
That's amazing. So we have a few minutes left. But I want to make sure that we have enough time to go talk about balancing business and family.
So I was really intrigued when I read your story, especially about the part about how you were able to simultaneously create a successful business while raising kids. As a mompreneur myself, I'm always interested in knowing how do you manage to balance the demands of your business with your responsibilities as a parent?
Maggie Lord
Yeah, it's, you know, I mean, it's a huge question. And the thing that I think is most interesting is that it changes based on what sort of timeframe you're in with your children. You know, I was an entrepreneur first and then, you know, and gotten married and then a little bit at a year, you know, two years, I guess, after getting married, like we had our first son and then four years later had our second and two years after that had our third. And so when they were infants, it was impossible, right? Like the demands of my business were so high and the demands of being a mom to a newborn were equally as crushing that, you know, a lot of tears a lot of how, what am I doing? I'm answering emails at two o'clock in the morning when I should be sleeping.
You know, I nursed every single one of my children while typing crazy emails to people, you know, but I will say that it's, you know, and they, you know, they would go as they got older, they went to preschool. And so then there was a couple of hours where I was like, I have uninterrupted time, you know, all of that is good.
I wrote years ago, I wrote an article, called The Naptime Entrepreneur. And it became a series in Entrepreneur Magazine about balancing motherhood and having children. And I said, when my kids were really young, what I focused on was during their nap times, I did whatever the hardest part of my job was gonna be, I focused that on that time. So when they were napping for two hours, I tackled the thing that I needed the most on, you know, uh, interrupted focus time for, um, you know, and that, that was probably would be like advertising or something with like bookkeeping, whereas like I could, I could kind of create some content while other chaos was happening.
But I think where, what I've learned now with the stage of life that I'm in, that they go to school, right? All day, they're all in, you know, school all day is that maximizing the time that they're not here so I can maximize my time with them when they are home. So my kids get out of school at four o 'clock. I pick them up at four, I don't work anymore. My computer's closed. You probably won't hear an email from me unless a client desperately needs something. I maximize the time when they're someplace else, at school or if your kids are really young and they're with a babysitter or daycare, things like that.
Um, you know, that, that is, I think kind of the healthiest thing. It's like, when you have this attention with them, be with them, you know. I mean, I've certainly done multiple, like I said, I nursed them and answered emails. I'd be cooking and holding one and like, you know, trying to text something on my phone. And that never feels as good as focusing, you know, on that, but it's, there's no, the day to day is always different, right? And for most entrepreneurs, your day to day is not the same.
And it, so you kind of just accept the chaos of how crazy it is being an entrepreneur and being a mom. But I always said, I would rather accept that chaos and be in control of my time. Than the flip side of kind of like the years working in corporate where you're not as much in control of your schedule and time. And I don't wanna miss anything that happens at school. So if I have to be there at 10 o 'clock on a Tuesday for a poetry something, I can go. That to me is worth it to the ups and downs of entrepreneurship. That to me is worth it. So, I think for my biggest advice is that talk and share with other entrepreneurs because a lot of people just feel like, oh, I'm the only entrepreneur in the world that can't fix this, can't make this work, can't, you know, and it's not true. And so by vocalizing it and talking about it with other entrepreneurs, I think it's a good thing.
Glynis Tao
Great advice. I know I can imagine what the chaos looks like. You were nursing a newborn and trying to send an email out at the same time and just all the emotions too, because I remember after having my baby as well, I just couldn't even think. You know, because body is just going through so many hormonal changes and everything as well. You would just be like feeling your mood changes were like, so, I mean, how are you able to even like stay focused?
Maggie Lord
I'm not saying like, when I have told clients or things that like, I took like a week maternity leave, like that was not good. Like I would not suggest that to my current clients. I would say, set up time so that with you, you know, having children is important, set that boundary, you know, have somebody else in the business step up for a little bit.
I've had clients who have said to me, Oh, well, if I want to go have a baby, will you come in and be our interim CEO? Because you know how to run a company and be, you know, and I just, I think there's creative ways to step away and take a true maternity leave. That as an entrepreneur, it's really, really, really hard. I was very jealous of a friend who was an entrepreneur and she had had children right before me. And she was like, she took some weeks off. And then after that, she's like, I will only email between like, you know, 10 and two, like every day for the next six weeks. Like, do not expect to hear from me. Like she gave like three day, like return around time on an email. She was very conscious about those boundaries.
Mine was very, I guess more messy where I was trying to do it all at the same time. But I would, I am an advocate for you. I firmly believe you can be an entrepreneur and take some maternity time both for you and for your baby.
Glynis Tao
Okay, that's great to hear that. Do you know if there's any like groups out there that help, you know, like mompreneur type groups, I guess, or if you are a part of any of them, like moms, support moms who are going through this, who have businesses.
Maggie Lord
I think there's probably some, I don't know any off the top of my head, I know that there's a lot of female founder groups, right, that you can join and pay money to be part of and stuff. I'm sure if you look around that there are some that are focused on kind of the mompreneur world and as it's changed and shifted for sure over the time. But I think, you know, talking to anybody who's lived through it helps current entrepreneurs know that like it can be done.
Glynis Tao
So before we wrap up here, can you provide a sneak peek into any exciting projects or plans that you have going for the future?
Maggie Lord
Yes, I do. I have some, you know, I'm a serial entrepreneur as I have been called. So I love working as an advisor to female founded brands. I love consulting with brands. It definitely, it's kind of like fills my cup every day. I'm so happy for the trajectory of where I started with Rustic Wedding Chic to kind of end up at this point in my career.
But I was just asked the other day, like, would you ever write a book about business and motherhood? And I don't know, I kind of have the itch to like write a book again. I just have to kind of think about what that would be. You know, so I'm excited about that. I have a fun kind of exciting, perhaps thought process for a company that would kind of relate to kind of this, the ages that my kids are in.
But again, it's like, I'm very busy. And so the idea of starting a whole other company, you know, kind of seems daunting where, cause on a day to day, I love working with my clients so much, but I think probably if I could sneak away some time, I would love the idea of putting more of my thoughts around business and motherhood and entrepreneurial thoughts into some sort of back into the writing world.
Glynis Tao
I think that would be so amazing and so helpful to a lot of people going through this journey of entrepreneurship and motherhood. I'd love to be part of that. If you ever do decide to embark on that venture. So where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Maggie Lord
Yeah. So you can go to maggielord.com and you get to read a little bit about my history. You can see the current clients I'm working with. I'm really flexible with my clients. There's no packages you can read about. I kind of meet with someone and I hear like where they are in their business and what their needs are. And then we kind of craft some sort of, you know, understanding of how working together would look. So, you know, you can go to maggielord.com and read more about me.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Maggie, for being on the podcast and sharing your inspiring story of how you, were able to balance your business while embracing motherhood at the same time. Thank you so much for talking to me today.
In this episode, Kristi Soomer, founder and CEO of ethical clothing brand Encircled, shares her insights on entrepreneurship in the fashion industry.
Summary
Kristi Soomer emphasizes the importance of understanding your customer and differentiating your brand. She discusses the evolution of Encircled from a travel clothing brand to a versatile athleisure brand. She also shares her motivation for starting her own business and the initial hurdles she faced. Kristi highlights the value of finding support and mentoring, as well as the need to adapt to industry trends. She offers advice for aspiring fashion entrepreneurs and gives a sneak peek into upcoming projects for Encircled.
About Kristi Soomer
Kristi Soomer is a visionary entrepreneur and sustainability advocate known for her work as a founder and CEO of the slow fashion brand Encircled. With a background in management consulting, retail and supply chain management, Kristi brings a wealth of expertise to the sustainable fashion space. Holding both an MBA and bachelor's degree in business administration prepared her for the challenges of disrupting the traditional fashion industry.
Encircled, under Kristi's leadership has become a beacon for ethical production, eco-friendly materials, and versatile garment design. As a certified B Corporation, Encircled exemplifies Kristi's commitment to making a positive impact on the environment, her team, and her customers.
A sought after speaker and thought leader, Kristi shares her insights on sustainable fashion at conferences, events, and podcasts, inspiring others to embrace conscious consumption. Kristi Soomer's dedication to her community, philanthropic efforts and passion for ethical practices are demonstrated through her coaching and online education business at KristiSoomer.com, where she helps up and coming entrepreneurs learn how to scale their businesses through coaching, her eCommerce Maven podcast, Facebook community and mentoring.
Creating a Clear Point of View and Focusing on Customer Needs
Kristi Soomer emphasizes the importance of having a clear point of view and focusing on customer needs in order to stand out in the overcrowded fashion industry. Encircled's commitment to sustainability, versatility, and comfort has resonated with customers looking for more than just fashion–they seek clothing that aligns with their values and lifestyle. By staying true to its core values and continuously listening to customer feedback, Encircled has been able to grow and evolve while maintaining its unique position in the market.
Adapting to Industry Trends and Staying Resilient
Adaptability and resilience has allowed Encircled to navigate business challenges and thrive. The pandemic experience underscored the need for effective risk management to plan for uncertainties and prepare for various scenarios.
Support and Mentoring to Navigate Entrepreneurship
Having mentors and a supportive network can provide guidance, encouragement, and practical advice, making the journey less isolating and more manageable. Resources such as Marie Forleo's B-School and the Time Genius program helped Kristi Soomer refine her marketing strategy and connect with other entrepreneurs facing similar challenges.
The Role of Content in Marketing
Much of Encircled's success is credited to its content-driven marketing strategy, inspired by Marie Forleo's B-School. By providing educational content and helpful tips, Encircled has built a strong connection with its customers, offering value beyond just selling products.
Commitment to Sustainability and Transparency
By being transparent about their progress and areas for improvement, Encircled builds trust with consumers who value sustainability. Kristi Soomer explains that the brand focuses on creating durable, timeless designs to reduce overconsumption and openly acknowledges the challenges and limitations they face in achieving full sustainability.
Chapters
00:00 Understanding Your Customer and Brand Differentiation
06:16 Starting Encircled as a Travel Clothing Brand
09:57 Creating a New Category: Wander Leisure
11:50 Motivation to Take the Leap into Entrepreneurship
16:34 Initial Hurdles and Overcoming Challenges
25:38 Transitioning to Full-Time Entrepreneurship
30:11 Navigating Changes and Adapting to Industry Trends
36:41 Lessons Learned from the Pandemic
39:26 Advice for Aspiring Fashion Entrepreneurs
43:59 Exciting Projects and Future Plans
45:48 Contact Information
Transcript
Kristi Soomer
It's very hard to break through in the fashion industry unless you have like a very clear point of view. And that's where I think it's really important to work or any product based business to really work on understanding who your customer is, because there are a lot of brands out there selling a lot of similar things and stuff comes around. So like there's not a lot of new stuff out there. It may be a new positioning, which is a different thing. That's what as an entrepreneur you bring to the table, you know, your own point of view on it, your own take, your own way you bring it to market. So I encourage people to think more about that and how they're going to go to market and what their brand looks like and their values as much as possible. Because I think that is what becomes a differentiator at the end of the day. Anybody can make a t-shirt. It's super easy. But can you tell a story with that t-shirt? Can you emotionally connect with that t-shirt? What values does that t-shirt bring to the world and to your customer's closet? That's more challenging.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
My guest today is Kristi Soomer, a visionary entrepreneur and sustainability advocate known for her work as a founder and CEO of the slow fashion brand Encircled. With a background in management consulting, retail and supply chain management, Kristi brings a wealth of expertise to the sustainable fashion space. Holding both an MBA and bachelor's degree in business administration prepared her for the challenges of disrupting the traditional fashion industry.
Encircled, under Kristi's leadership has become a beacon for ethical production, eco-friendly materials, and versatile garment design. As a certified B Corporation, Encircled exemplifies Kristi's commitment to making a positive impact on the environment, her team, and her customers. A sought after speaker and thought leader, Kristi shares her insights on sustainable fashion at conferences, events, and podcasts, inspiring others to embrace conscious consumption.
Kristi Soomer's dedication to her community, philanthropic efforts and passion for ethical practices are demonstrated through her coaching and online education business at KristiSoomer.com, where she helps up and coming entrepreneurs learn how to scale their business through coaching, a podcast, Facebook community and mentoring.
Welcome, Kristi. It's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Kristi Soomer
Thanks for having me, Glynis.
Glynis Tao
This feels like a dream come true, because I've been hoping to talk to you for a while. I've been following your work and I'm a huge fan of your brand, Encircled. As a matter of fact, I'm wearing one of your tops today.
Kristi Soomer
Yeah, I was like, that kind of looks familiar.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, I love it. I love the color. You're an entrepreneur, podcast host, business coach, mentor, not to mention dog mama, to sweet little doodle named Harlow, who by the way has more Instagram followers than I do. How do you find the time to do it all?
Kristi Soomer
Well, I don't have kids. So that’s part one, I'm just a dog mom, but I do keep up with her post. I think I'm actually more regular on my dog's Instagram than on my own. Like, I find it easier to post content on there for whatever reason. And I think that's kind of the case for a lot of people because social media is where people tend to overthink what they need to post and stuff like that. Especially I find within the space that we operate. So dog Instagram is just a much easier place.
But how do I find the time? Well, I mean, most of my time is spent in Encircled. The majority of my time goes into operating and running the business. But I do have like the other things on the go, like my podcast and Facebook group and stuff like that and do some coaching and mentoring.
Um, but that's a very small portion of my schedule and I'm just, like I've, I've become pretty good at like time blocking and really being focused with how I use my time. I'm a huge advocate of Marie Forleo’s Time Genius program, which I've been through and I also coach in as well. Um, and it's really about changing your mindset on time and not, um, trying to be the most productive person ever, but instead being like really focused on your efforts and doing like less almost to get further ahead with what you're working on.
So it's a balancing act for sure. And every week is different. And some of them, especially around key holidays like Black Friday and Christmas and stuff like that can be kind of messy. But I've tried intensely over the last few years to cut back my hours. And I think I've been pretty successful at it.
Glynis Tao
What I admire you most for is that you're an innovator, leader, disruptor, and champion of small business. Not only have you built a successful business, you are dedicated to helping other business owners achieve success as well. You're also very open and transparent about sharing strategies you use at Encircled. I know the story of Encircled and how you got started, which involves solving a pain point that you had, but I want to talk to you about your most recent business announcement.
You decided to make some changes recently and create a new category of clothing. Do you want to talk about that and what led you to your decision to return to your roots?
Kristi Soomer
Very up to date question. I love it. Since this announcement was just made last week. That's great. Yeah. So originally Encircled started as a travel clothing brand. Essentially I was in my most recent previous career, I was a management consultant. So prior to the pandemic times, management consultants pretty much traveled on site to clients and most of my clients were not in Toronto. So I was living out of a suitcase, flying, you know, back and forth to New York, sometimes Calgary for like years, not just like weeks.
And so I started to really challenge myself on the notion of traveling light and being stylish because you can't check a bag. Everybody will make fun of you and the consulting world. And you don't want to do that because you don't want to spend extra time at the airport. So I started, that's my original inspiration behind designing the Chrysalis Cardi, which was like our hero piece that I launched with back way, way, way back when, which is an eight in one garment that can be transformed and it's made out of the same lovely fabric of the Evolve top that you're wearing.
Um, and then over the years, you know, we've still always had that travel ethos, I would say at the heart of everything we do, but we've definitely shifted, I think a lot in the last, like, probably since around like 2017, we really focused more on talking about minimalist wardrobes and capsule wardrobes and, you know, kind of doing more with less.
And while I think that resonated with our customer, it's a hard concept for people to wrap their heads around a little bit. And I think sustainability in itself is a very complex topic in any industry, but for some reason, I guess maybe I'm a bit biased. I feel like fashion, it's incredibly complex because there's so many nuances to the sustainability continuum. And I think over the years, I've changed my opinion a little bit on sustainability from just purely looking at like the fabrics you're using to not only that, but the longevity and the utility of the design being as like, as important, if not more than the fabrications. Because one of the biggest things I know in the industry, and I'm sure you're a well aware as well, is that like, it doesn't matter if you make 8 billion tops out of a sustainable fabric through one of the fast fashion brands, like if they're not needed, and it's over, it's fueling like over consumption, and then they're going to fall apart in a year anyways, you can't wear them. We're no farther ahead.
So I think our move to creating a new category, which we're calling Wander Leisure, is really a push to come back home, not only to our roots, but also to where our customers are today. And I would say that's kind of our niche has always been like this like elegant athleisure. So like not your everyday kind of yoga pants kind of stuff, but a step up from that and stuff that people can wear not only to work, but on the weekend or to trip to your city or Paris and not look like a tourist and be comfortable.
So I don't think we're really changing as dramatically maybe as it seems, although we are being more focused, I think, with our designs and actually slowing down our product development cycle quite a bit. But it's more so that we're changing how we articulate it to our customer, because that's what we want. Like I want the designs I'm most proud of are the ones that, like your Evolve Top, I designed in 2013, 2014 maybe. It's like almost 10 years old and it's still timeless and many customers still wear them. So to me, that's a marker of sustainability is creating clothing that's timeless, elegant, wearable, comfortable, and that's sustainable. So it's really just another take on it. We're not giving away any of our core values at all, but we're just really changing kind of our focus a little bit.
Glynis Tao
That totally makes sense. I'm looking at your website, and you know, it's the message is really clear in terms of like, this new, or not new message, but it's saying travel inspired, elegant athleisure that takes you places. We make wander leisure travel inspired, elegant athleisure that takes you places. That's like, you know, it gives you really clear ideas to like, okay, what is it that you do? And you know, what is the idea purpose behind your your company? And I love this, like, this word that you invented. Chic comfy, compact and clever styles consciously crafted to never compromise on fit, function or quality. I mean, it speaks to me. And that's why I still love these designs. Oh, and I see the Evolve Top is on the website homepage on the front homepage too.
And like, you know, I subscribe to your e-letters and I read every single one of them. And I just love, you know, the little tips that you give to people. Styling tips are how to create a capsule wardrobe or how to pack, you know, better for trips. So it's, it's really neat. Like I really like what you do. And it just, to me, seems like you really know who your customer is.
Let's talk about a little bit how before founding Encircled, right? So you were working as a strategy consultant. Can you share a memorable moment or experience that motivated you to take that leap into entrepreneurship and launch your brand?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah, I think for me,
Like it started with the idea originally. So just like I came up with that word, wander leisure, I think just like a moment when I was packing for, ironically, my first yoga retreat I'd ever been on, I was on the bench, they call it, or on the beach in consulting when you're not assigned to a client. So I asked my manager, can I go on vacation? Cause the cancellation just opened up in this yoga retreat my friend's going to.
And now that seems like very normal, but I guess back like 10 years ago, or even that would have been more, that would have been more like 13 years ago, yoga retreats were not like super well known. So I'd never been on one, but I did yoga. So I was like, let's go last minute book trip going like two days later, packing for my trip, overpacking because you know, I've never been on a yoga retreat. What do you bring? I don't know. So I started just like shoving all this stuff in this huge suitcase that I had and it broke.
And I was packing the night before and it broke and I was like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? All I have is a carry on. This is a crisis. I can't call my friend because it's like four in the morning and I'm packing. So I'm like, I just got it. Okay. What, what do I not need to bring? And then I'm like, why am I bringing like all this stuff? Like I need a cardigan for the plane, but what else? I wouldn't really use it there. Like, so that was like a pivotal moment where I was like, okay, I need to like think more compact with how I'm packing and why do I have so much like single use items that are not multifunctional that could be. So that was like one moment.
And then I think the real pivotal moment, at least in my career, I would say was, and I'd already kind of started Encircled at this point and had it kind of running as like a side hustle to my full-time job, but it was the Rana Plaza factory collapse. And that was in 2013. Um, and I was still actively in consulting and my vertical was retail. So, and I was going to Montreal and I was on the ferry. Uh, that's how old I am to the Island airport in Toronto, which is now a tunnel. Um, and I overheard somebody from one of the brands talking about how their brand was involved in this. And I wasn't supposed to hear this conversation clearly, but I did need to hear it. And the way they were speaking about it was so disrespectful to the people that were involved in that. And it just made me really question.
They didn't work for me or anything like that or work with me, but they're in the industry. And it just hearing that made me like sick to my stomach. Cause I'm like, these are people's lives who are lost making clothing that weren't even being properly paid in the first place. They were literally locked in to this building and could not leave. And it just made me think like, who am I helping with the work that I'm doing right now. And the answers weren't what I wanted, you know?
And I think that's tough and that's definitely a very privileged position to sit in because I was in what I believed was my like dream career, but I didn't want to help more big businesses do bad things ultimately. So I realized that if I wanted to create change in a positive direction, it wasn't going to be through this role and it wasn't going to be in this industry even. And I think that's very true. Cause now if you look even like we're like 10 years later there's not much change that's happened in the mass fashion or fashion vertical in terms of sustainability. Like it's moved very slowly. The biggest change has come from the creation of all these other brands kind of starting up and bringing new ways of working and new designs, new materials.
Um, so I really wanted to be at the forefront of that. And that was like pretty pivotal in thinking like, you know, at the end of my life, do I want to be known for restructuring brands and firing people and cutting 50 cents out of a manufacturing cost? Or do I want to be like a champion of creating better lives and the workers who make our clothing and educating consumers on, you know, where things are made and the value of quality and cost per wear and utilization of clothing in the industry.
So that was a pretty pivotal moment in making the decision, I think, for me to go forward and actually quit my job and go into the business full time.
Glynis Tao
Wow, that's an interesting story. I didn't know that part.
Entrepreneurship comes with challenges. What were some of the initial hurdles you faced when starting your clothing brand and how did you overcome them?
Kristi Soomer
The first one would be not knowing anything about manufacturing a garment for sure. And back when I started, you know, it's not like it is today where, you know, there's Upwork and a lot of resources online and, you know, myself included creating courses for digital marketing. Like it wasn't as big and accessible as it is now the information kind of gig economy. So that was a big hurdle, I think was figuring out actually how the fashion manufacturing process worked, how to get a garment made, which fabrics to even used, you know, that's very still much a black hole. I think when you're trying to make a garment, even for us today, because there's like, you think as a consumer, you're like, Oh yeah, there's, there's modal, but there's modal jersey, there's modal scuba, there's modal rib, there's tubular rib, like there's so many variations on one thing, there's fleece, there's French terry, like what are the differences, like where it's certified, like just figuring out even that was so difficult. So that would have been like a big one.
The second one would be, I think, believing in myself as a challenge because I came from a very non-entrepreneurial family. My parents believe in like working at a corporation forever. So I didn't have a lot of family support. I didn't have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs. It's not like it is now. Now entrepreneurs are like, you know, superheroes and everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. It was not like that. It was like, don't quit your day job, girl. So that was really hard because I didn't know what I didn't even know. And there wasn't a lot of communities to help support you at that time. So that I think that was a big one because I just didn't really I don't know, I had a great idea, but I didn't realize it, I think.
And then, yeah, just figuring out the technicalities of selling online. This is like early days Shopify, my original site was not built on Shopify, it was built on Magento. And just understanding even how to run a web store and figure out shipping and all that kind of stuff. Wow, that whole logistics side cannot be underestimated.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. So many moving parts to running a clothing business.
So, I mean, going back to, you know, when you sort of like, well, sort of coming from a family where, you know, wasn't really entrepreneurship wasn't really supportive, like, okay, stick with the corporate job, you know, like, how did you stay motivated during those times? Like, you know, did you have anybody that you worked with, or coach or mentor or something to help you like, get through those more of the challenging times?
Kristi Soomer
Mostly I didn't tell people what I was doing. I hid it. I hid it from a lot of people. Not that I lied, but I hid it because I didn't want people that I didn't want my family to know. I didn't want my work to know because I didn't want them to think I wasn't serious about my job or like somehow maybe stealing time from them. And then my friends, I would periodically like have them try stuff on or whatever. But I don't think anybody really thought I was being serious about it.
But I did, you know, one of the communities I early on got into was I took a program called B-School by Marie Forleo and she had a large community of entrepreneurs and it's global. So we had like a little Facebook group for all the e-commerce retailers. And that was like my first kind of connector network, I would say, of people kind of experiencing the same thing. So like, how do you do this on Shopify? How do you upload that? Like, how can you make this graphic? Like how did they do this? Like and that was just like incredibly supportive in terms of getting me forward.
I was hoping that I would have more resources but I found that the local community wasn't as supportive of my initiatives and that's not meaning to slight anybody but I think I didn't come from a traditional fashion background and my business was really commercial. Like I'm not a like couture designer and I think a lot of the agencies in Toronto and organizations kind of cycle around those like higher end designers. So there wasn't really a space for me to be supported there.
Although I will say, I found one of my technical designers through like a resume database at one of those incubators. And she was invaluable to like the first few years of my business. So you kind of have to pull from resources where you can get it and where you feel like most supported.
And definitely I found like online was the place. And now it's so great because there's so many great online communities and mentors and coaches and stuff like that. It's really such an up level, even for me at this stage in my business to find somebody who's, you know, a few years farther ahead that can see what you can't see.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So you mentioned Marie Forleo's B-School. I also was in that program. I took it when probably around maybe 2011, 2012. Yeah, it was only when the program was around for a couple years then, and I still had my own clothing brand. But I was struggling with like, a lot of the same things that you mentioned. And like, but I came from a fashion background, in manufacturing background. So I had product development and garment manufacturing experience, but I didn't have the business experience. And so that's what why I turned to B-School.
And I thought, was very early on like one of the maybe first you know kind of online programs that were available but it had that community feel to it and that you also get the support which is great and um yeah you're currently mentoring um for them as well right?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah I mentor in both programs B-School and Time Genius I've actually been doing mentoring in B-School for almost eight years, maybe, it's been a while. So, so yeah, and Maria is amazing. As you know, like she's really committed to constantly like revisiting the content and expanding it. And now she has a whole mentor team, you know, in there helping in the comments, and it's a variety of people like it's me and there's a couple there's another e-commerce entrepreneur, there's, you know, life coaches, there's website designer mentors, like there's a real rich perspective in there.
Sometimes I want to go in and ask questions. I can probably just DM them. But like, she's really done a great job of staying current with what's happening in digital marketing, because I think that changes quite a bit. And I will say, like, to her credit, like I took, I mean, I have an MBA, I went to business school, and I have an MBA. And when I took her program, I was like, whoa, I've been thinking about this all wrong.
Um, and it's because like my tactics and my background were all corporate marketing, which does not work when you have no money. It just does not work. So what I was trying to do was adapt corporate marketing tactics to a small business. And like, it was not working. And I took it in 2013. And the only reason I know that is because it was soon after I launched my business and I had hired a PR agency because that's what corporate people do. And they had kind of run out of steam after three months, because I only have one product. And they were like, I don't think we can promote you anymore. We've been there, done that. You got lots of placements. And I did get lots of placements. But then all of a sudden, I had no marketing plan. Like as soon as they left, I did $138 in March 2013 in sales. And I thought to myself, you are never going to be full time in this business. That is crazy bad. That is so bad. And it was my friend who bought it bought a cardi, like it wasn’t even somebody I didn't know.
And I laugh about it now, but like, some of the early tactics that I started to use were from B-School because they were content driven. And actually you still see that as you mentioned, to this day in my business, we do a lot of content creation in the business, not just like outfits, but like actual educational content and packing lists and all this kind of stuff. And a lot of that was inspired through that program.
And it's so value added and it creates just such a nice connection with your customer because you're truly giving them something other than just trying to sell them something, but you're giving them a lot of value as well.
Glynis Tao
So it sounds like in your early days, I guess when you sort of started Encircle, like you still were working at your job, right? Like you hadn't quit your job yet at that time, like when you had, when you do, you were doing in Encircled at the same time. And because you were like am I ever going to be able to like do this full time?
I had the same experience too. I was working as a product manager at Reebok and doing the business on the side until I was kind of forced out of my job. And I was like, well, I guess this is the opportunity for me to do this full time and never look back. But the learning curve was just huge.
Obviously, you know, now we know you've managed to be successful over the years and have been able to scale the business. Did your previous experience as a consultant, like, help you in being able to, you know, plan and establish your business? You did talk about it a little bit, but yeah, did you draw from a lot of that experience from your work into your business?
Kristi Soomer
Consulting is that like the reason people hire consultants and probably the reason people hire coaches and mentors is because it's like an objective view on the business. So when you're a business owner, you're not as objective, no matter if you have a consulting background. So from that sense, no, but I would say my whole career was helpful in structuring the business and even my school, like I think my MBA program, I went to Queens University in Canada and that was really transformative from a framework perspective. So that's why I think I'm such a strong operator is because I do have a strong framework for operating the business and the business is, as you know, fashion businesses are really finance driven. You really have to understand the numbers and be really good at forecasting and inventory and manufacturing and stuff like that.
Of course you have to be good at design, but the fundamentals that underpin it need to be really strong. So I think my education and career set me up really well for that. So I worked for some amazing consulting firms, but I also like a lot of shaping of my career happened when I worked at Colgate-Palmolive, which is a consumer packaged goods company that's run like, you know, the tightest ship you'll ever run. And like that taught me so much about like profit and loss statements and marketing spend and all these things, you know, that are really important for a business. So I'd say that's like been really helpful. And I don't think I, you know, I quit my job in 2014 and I had been in my career for almost 11 years, which is like very stupid, probably to a lot of people who are thinking, why would you do that?
But it's not like what happens today. People graduate university and they've already got a business on the side or something. They don't even bother or sometimes they don't even bother going to school or college and they just start their business. That just wasn't really as much of a thing back then. And I'm grateful for every lesson. And I always say this to people who are doing a side hustle. There's always something to learn from your business and having that side business you know, although it was hard because I wasn't home a lot. So I would literally like pack orders on the weekend. And I dropped them on the way to the airport in, you know, Canada Post mailboxes, and I'd have the driver pull over and like stuff some in there. And then I go to the next one, I stuff a bunch in there. That's kind of how I worked. And so that was hard.
But I, there was also I didn't have to worry about money as much, you know, that whole financial stress point was relieved from having a career. Like I wasn't like constantly stressing about that. And so that kind of was, I think, a big game changer. So I always encourage people if they can kind of do both, or at least keep some sort of consistent income while they are starting their business. I think it is it does reduce that like anxiety that comes from being an entrepreneur that we all know comes with it either way at every level, it reduces it for a little bit and allows you to focus on, you know, what matters most and to hire out stuff as well.
Glynis Tao
Sort of like what would you say was the tipping point for you? Like, what was the thing that you did that, you know, got to really like, boost you, your business?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah, I would say like every year, especially early on, you know, the business was like kind of doubling every year. And I think it hit its point where it was becoming unmanageable by me, uh, part-time for sure. And I was starting to realize like, if I want this PR opportunity, if I want this, I want to do another product. Like everything was moving so slowly because I could really only do it on like Saturdays and Sundays. Um, and I'd have to take vacation to work on the business. So it's becoming like prohibitive, I think. So I had to decide.
Um, and I don't remember the specific revenue, but I think it was around, I would guess like $150,000 or something like that. Like I was doing a decent amount of revenue through the business a year. And I was like, okay, I've got something people are like interested in what I'm selling. So like, what if I actually put my full-time effort in and what will happen?
Um, so yeah, I would say like over the years, it just started to kind of grow. Obviously as you get bigger, it doesn't double every year. And then during the pandemic, we had quite a bit of growth, like a lot of brands did for sure, just with people shifting to online shopping and being kind of in this space where we literally make sweatpants you can wear to work. So we were in the right spot at the right time kind of thing. So yeah, but it does get harder as it gets, your business gets bigger to grow and the tactics always change.
Back in the day, like, especially when I first started, like working with bloggers was such a big and influencers, they weren't even called that back then, was such a big unlock for our business. Like we could do a blogger partnership, you know, and we would make like $20,000 in like 24 hours. Like it was crazy. Now it's like so much more fragmented. So you kind of have to, as a business owner, as you know, like adapt your skillset all the time to kind of the changing channels and the tactics and the strategies and, you know, Facebook ads are always shifting and all that kind of stuff. So you really have to become a Jack or Jill of all trades when you're an entrepreneur, which is, it's tough, but I think it's really fun too, cause you get to learn about a lot of stuff and continuously challenge yourself.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, absolutely. And you share a lot of that knowledge on your podcast, especially exactly what you've been doing, what's worked and what hasn't worked for your business. And I love that. I really, I've listened to almost all, if not all your podcasts, because you offer such valuable advice. It's just valuable. It's, you know, practical. It's stuff that you can do. It's, you know, it's not anything crazy. It's like stuff that's actually doable. And knowing that, you know, you've tested it out for your own business, knowing that it works. It's like, wow. I think that's great.
I know in the past three, four years, you know, there's been a big shift in terms of consumer behavior and, you know, the way industry trends are going. How have you adapted to all those changes? Like, have you obviously had to adapt your business model? Like, how did you navigate through all of these changes?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah, so...It's been a little tough because like somewhat ironically, I'm sure this happened to many brands. You know, in 2020, we were going to expand into physical pop-ups. Like we had booked a bunch of like collaborative pop-ups with another brand in person and we had booked all these shows and events. And then, you know, all of a sudden you can't do any of these. And so that was tough.
Um, but you, and we used to do a lot of in-person events and retail in our studio even. And then all of a sudden we're like, can we even open our studio? Can we even ship from our studio? So we had to like really adapt quite a bit. And because of where we're located, like some of our manufacturing shut down, like there was a lot of like, um, uncertainty, especially during the first like six months. Um, so we, we adapted pretty quickly to you know, selling masks. We were one of the first brands in Canada to move to that because we had a manufacturer who was like ready to make them and already had like everything set up for that. And those really carried us through the first few months of the pandemic for sure. And, you know, it was crazy. You would like go on the website and we get a sale like every second when we restock them, like it was, it was insane.
But that led to a lot of discovery of us as a brand, which was nice as well. So once we had manufacturing back open, we were able to like get back into production and kind of business as normal, but not really for a few years. So you just kind of have to roll with the punches. It's, you know, it was an incredibly difficult time. I think any entrepreneur will tell you that. And, you know, even from everything, from getting materials to, you know price increases, to getting people to work for you, and like all the things. Like there was just so many things that like, I hope we just have the next decade and it's just like cool and calm. That'd be nice. Cause I think a lot of us like really went through it, but you know, all you can do is just do the best that you can and adapt and be gentle and kind to yourself through the process because you know that like other people are going through the same thing as well.
And that's where I think community is really helpful also is to make sure you're supporting yourself with like, you know, different communities, because oftentimes what you're thinking, you're probably not the only one experiencing it. So it's good to have that community so that you don't feel so alone.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Just exactly what you said. I mean, during the pandemic, we were all in it. So it's not like you felt like you were the only one going through it. You know, the entire world was.
So in that way, I felt like it's never been a time like something like this in history and like within the past hundred years, that was like global, that everybody was in the same situation at the same time and all having to adapt to this.
But like, would you say now, you know, did the pandemic help you in your business in terms of identifying certain things? Doing things differently? Has it changed the way you did business? Do you think you came out stronger?
Kristi Soomer
That's a great question. Would I do it again? No. No. If I'm honest and transparent like I am, no, I would not wish that on anybody. But I'm definitely more resilient. And I think, you know, all the business owners that I know are in some way, because it showed a lot of us that, you know, we can adapt to whatever is thrown at our way. And some businesses were just dealt a crappy hand. Like it was just like chance, right? Like if you're in the right category, like thank God we weren't selling like luggage or something during the pandemic, that would have been a lot harder to like deal with, right? So I think in some ways, some brands got really lucky. Some of them did not. Like restaurants, I think struggled a lot.
And we lost a lot of great restaurants, I know in Toronto. So it's like, it's like neither good or bad. It's just like, it happened and we deal with it and we move on. But the things I learned for sure were like, you know, nothing is certain. And I think too, I think a lot of us got that reality check that like, you know, as an entrepreneur, like stuff is always out of our control, but there's usually like stability somewhere.
And I think the thing with the pandemic was that it was like really out of control and there was no stability in your external environment and then internally. And it's just like, whoa, okay, that can happen. And for a lot of us, like we had never experienced anything that unstable in our lives. So I think from that perspective, it was eye-opening to not only build resilience, but also to build awareness that like we have to plan for some of these things.
Those things that people talk about in risk management that we laugh at, because we're like, oh, that's stupid, that'll never happen. They can happen. Like nothing's out of the field. So I think about that a lot when we're planning production, when we're how we structure our business, where people are located, who serve the business. We're definitely much more hybrid model with a huge portion of like remote freelancers now just because of the way things have shifted. So I do think we took whatever positives we could out of it, but yeah, it was a very challenging time for sure.
Glynis Tao
For aspiring entrepreneurs in the fashion industry, what advice would you give them based on your own experience and lessons learned?
Kristi Soomer
I would say it's very hard to break through in the fashion industry unless you have a very clear point of view.
And that's where I think it's really important to work or any product based business to really work on understanding who your customer is, who you're serving and how you're either solving some sort of problem for them or creating some sort of joy for them. Because there are a lot of brands out there selling a lot of similar things and know, we see it all the time that fashion is very recycled in terms of silhouettes and you know, now 90s fashion is back again, much to our horror, you know, stuff comes around. So like, there's not a lot of new stuff out there. It may be a new positioning, which is a different thing of old things. And that's, that's what as an entrepreneur, you bring to the table, you know, your own point of view on it, your own take your own way you bring it to market.
So, I encourage people to think more about that and how they're going to go to market and what their brand looks like and their values, um, as much as possible. Cause I think that is what becomes a differentiator at the end of the day. Anybody can make a t-shirt. It's super easy. Um, but can you tell a story with that t-shirt? Can you emotionally connect with that t-shirt? You know, what, what values does that t-shirt bring to the world and share your customer's closet? That's more challenging.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And, um, I mean, you have very strong values as a brand and seem like it was something that you had, you know, from the beginning had your set core values. And that's carried you through all these years. And the more or less I guess the values have remained the same in these past 11 years?
Kristi Soomer
Pretty much. Yeah, I think I mean, they haven't really changed that much. I would say maybe the way we articulate them has sometimes changed. But like, we've always been really comfortable. Versatility has always been at the core of what we do. The thoughtfulness of our design is always integral. And then obviously, our ethics have always been there.
We've always been made in Canada and always strive to do the most sustainable thing with our fabrics as possible. So yeah, they've always been the way they are. And I think that's a testament. I do believe that our customers see that we live our values and we're really authentic about them and we're transparent when we can't achieve something. Some things are just not realistic for small brands and some things are just not far along enough to deliver on product quality and stuff like that yet. Removing spandex out of every product would be amazing, but there's benefits to spandex that people don't understand in terms of longevity and rebound and fabric and fit.
So like there's things that we can't solve for yet, but it doesn't mean we're not thinking about them. So we're always very transparent with our customers to let them know, you know, where we're doing well and where we're maybe, you know, still a work in progress.
Glynis Tao
I love that. Um, what's your look for 2024?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah, so I think it's really positive. We're coming out with a lot of new styles coming up, really inspired by our customer where they are today. As you mentioned, when I started Encircled in 2012, even I've grown up with the business, this is like 10, 12 years later, and I'm even in a different phase in my life. So we're really designing for the woman who is living her midlife journey.
And we really want to be a part of that. So that's something we take really seriously into how we design. So I'm very excited to kind of roll that out a little bit more in terms of how we're executing on even pants or like tops and dresses and stuff like that. Like we have some really great designs that are functional, yet comfortable, yet elegant and dressy that we're launching over the next like six months that are planned out. And I'm really excited about them all.
So I'm really happy to see our customers reactions because I feel pretty confident in them and the new directions. So, so yeah, it's looking good.
Glynis Tao
Oh, amazing. Can you provide any sneak peek into any exciting projects or plans a brand has for the future?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah, so we are coming out with, for years people have asked us for dressy sweatpants, which is one of our best selling products. Without pleats and without ruching like less of a sweat pant kind of looking sweatpant. So one of our new products that's coming out in February is called the Wanderer Pant. And it is basically like your go to like, kind of like tapered leg work to weekend pant made out of dressy sweatpant material. So it feels like pajamas it’s so comfortable, really elegant. Um, our designer’s done an amazing job at making jersey not look like jersey, which is really difficult to do. Um, so it has, it looks actually structured, but it's not, um, it's soft. So I'm really excited for that pant. I think our customer is going to love it. Um, it's really modern and fresh and it's like one of those pants you can wear anywhere. Um, and everywhere. And that's the beauty of our dressy sweatpants and other designs that's been around forever.
So this is, I think, one of those designs that will be in people's closets for a really long time. So we're really proud to bring that to market next month.
Glynis Tao
Oh, I'm excited for that as well. I have a pair of the dressy sweatpants. I'd like to see the next evolution of it. Yeah. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
Kristi Soomer
Yeah. So you can check us out at Encircled.ca. That's E-N-C-I-R-C-L-E D.ca.
We're at @Encircled_ on Instagram and you can find me at @KristiSoomer on Instagram or TikTok.
Glynis Tao
Thank you so much for being here today and sharing your valuable insights into entrepreneurship, the fashion industry and business scaling with us.
In this episode you will discover the journey of Canadian fashion designer, Linda Lundström.
Linda shares her insights on embracing change, the impact of technology in manufacturing and why challenges should be seen as gifts. Join us for an inspiring conversation with this true fashion innovator.
About Linda Lundström
Linda Lundström is an award-winning fashion designer, lean manufacturing practitioner, inspirational speaker, Indigenous ally, and creative director of online outerwear brand Therma Kōta.
Linda’s career spans over five decades in the fashion industry. She's well known for designing and building the Linda Lundström brand and a state-of-the-art Canadian lean manufacturing facility. She is the recipient of numerous awards, including three honorary PhDs. She was named to the Order of Ontario in 1995 and received the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal in 2013. She is recognized as a champion of First Nations awareness, ethical manufacturing practices, and a proud supporter of the Made in Canada label. Linda's entrepreneurial journey is marked by synchronicity guided by mantras from her parents and a deep commitment to social responsibility.
Summary
Linda Lundström, a renowned Canadian fashion designer, shares her journey of resilience, innovation, and spirituality in the fashion industry. With over five decades of experience, she emphasizes the significance of seeing every life event as a gift, even setbacks like her company's bankruptcy in 2008. Lundström highlights the importance of paying attention to the universe's signs and believing in one's path. Her career is marked by her dedication to Canadian manufacturing, ethical practices, and empowering Indigenous communities through the Sewing Circle Project. She also discusses the transition from running a multimillion-dollar business to founding Therma Kōta with her daughters, focusing on sustainable, made-to-order outerwear.
Takeaways
View Challenges as Gifts
Lundström's philosophy revolves around perceiving every life event, including setbacks and failures, as gifts that lead to growth and new opportunities.
Lean Manufacturing and Innovation
Lundström's adoption of lean manufacturing and computerized systems in the '80s showcases her forward-thinking approach, focusing on efficiency, waste reduction, and empowering workers.
Sourcing and Sustainability
Her commitment to Canadian manufacturing and sustainable practices highlights the importance of ethical considerations in fashion. She designed products based on the available materials, promoting a waste-not-want-not philosophy.
Cultural Identity and Design
Drawing inspiration from her father’s Swedish indigenous background and Canadian heritage, Lundström underlines the significance of integrating personal and cultural identity into design, making it unique and authentic.
Adaptation and Online Business Model
Transitioning to an online business model with Therma Kōta, she illustrates the importance of adapting to changing market dynamics and leveraging technology to reach customers directly, offering customized, made-to-order products.
Importance of Physical Fitness
She emphasizes the physical demands of the fashion industry, advising aspiring designers to maintain physical fitness to handle the workload effectively.
Chapters
00:00 Believing in the Gifts of Life
03:15 Introduction to Linda Lundström
06:30 Early Passion for Sewing
13:35 Starting the Linda Lundström Brand
18:22 Inspiration from a Trip to Japan
23:07 Creating Laparka
30:49 Commitment to Made in Canada
36:52 Transition to Lean Manufacturing
43:08 Supporting Indigenous Communities
56:09 Starting and Building a Multi-Million Dollar Company
57:26 Facing Financial Crisis and Selling the Company
59:18 Creating a Plan B and Transitioning to a New Chapter
01:01:08 Finding Joy and Success in a Smaller Studio
01:03:08 Working Remotely and Embracing Lean Manufacturing
01:05:01 Embracing Online Retail and Minimizing Waste
01:07:52 Supporting Indigenous Communities through the Sewing Circle Project
01:10:53 Advice for Aspiring Fashion Designers and Entrepreneurs
01:15:18 Viewing Challenges as Gifts and Finding Happiness
If you pay attention to the signs and signals that the universe sends you on your path that are meant to direct you in a certain way, believe, have faith that if you follow that path, it will take you somewhere good. And even going bankrupt, having my company fail in 2008, even that was a gift.
And the second thing besides, you know, being physically strong that I want to share with people as a piece of advice is that I've gone through life believing that everything is a gift. Everything is a gift. Growing up in the bush turned out to be a gift. Losing my company in 2008 became a gift because now I live on a lake surrounded by cedar trees and I'm working in my studio and I'm still doing what I love.
So losing my company was a gift because I would have been in worse shape if I clung onto it and not listened to what the universe was telling me. So everything in life in business is a gift. If you have that belief, then you will find that no matter what happens, you can survive it, you can thrive and be happy.
Glynis Tao
Welcome to Chase Your Dreams, a podcast for fashion entrepreneurs who want to build a purposeful and profitable clothing business so they can make a living doing what they love. I'm your host, Glynis Tao, an apparel business consultant and SEO specialist with 20 years apparel industry experience. I'm also a mom to a wonderfully energetic little boy named Chase.
Glynis Tao
Hey everyone, I'm so thrilled to have you join us today as we delve into the incredible journey of Canadian fashion designer, Linda Lundström. Linda Lundström is an award-winning fashion designer, lean manufacturing practitioner, inspirational speaker, Indigenous ally, and creative director of online outerwear brand Therma Kōta.
Linda's career spans over five decades in the fashion industry. She's well known for designing and building the Linda Lundström brand and a state-of-the-art Canadian lean manufacturing facility. She is the recipient of numerous awards, including three honorary PhDs. She was named to the Order of Ontario in 1995 and the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal in 2013. She is recognized as a champion of First Nations awareness and ethical manufacturing practices, a proud supporter of the Made in Canada label. Linda's entrepreneurial journey is marked by synchronicity guided by mantras from her parents and a deep commitment to social responsibility.
Today, Linda shares her insights on embracing change, the impact of technology in manufacturing and why challenges should be seen as gifts. Join us for inspiring conversation with a true fashion innovator, Linda Lundström.
Hi, Linda, it's so nice to have you here today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Linda Lundström
Thank you, Glynis. It's so good to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Glynis Tao
You are a Canadian fashion industry icon, and I'm so honored to have you here sharing your story and expertise with us today. My pleasure. So can you tell our listeners a bit about yourself and how you first got started in the fashion industry?
Linda Lundström
Wow, how much time do we have? Well, the short story is that I started sewing when I was three. So, you know, the fact that I did what I did with my career kind of makes sense when you know that. We grew up in a little tiny community in northwestern Ontario. It was a mining community, gold mining community, where there was a lot of little towns, each one with a gold mine. And so the town that we were in when I was actually a hamlet had about 11 houses.
And my mom ordered a Singer featherweight sewing machine from Eaton's catalog. It was electric, which was state of the art back then because a lot of the sewing machines were treadle sewing machines, you know, you pump them with your feet. So my mom had this little sewing machine which was her pride and joy. And she took the needle out and let me play with it. Can you believe it? So at the age of three, I was feeding fabric through the machine, but there was no needle in it.
And then she thought, oh, this kid seems to be pretty competent in that. So she put a thread in it and a needle and gave me fabric. And so by the time I was in grade one, I was making my own clothes to go to school.
Glynis Tao
Wow.
Linda Lundström
Yeah. And my mom, so my mom was really instrumental and encouraging. I mean, can you imagine we're in the middle of nowhere in the bush. Our only contact with the outside world is Eaton's catalog and or one of our only contacts wasn't the only one. There was a highway out of the area which is basically it's called the Red Lake District but it was made up of these little towns and we lived in several of them but the one I was born in was very small and so for her to supply me with fabric. Sometimes it was just the bags that flour came in. Flour used to come in cloth bags, by the way, so did sugar. So my mom saved those bags and she'd let me experiment with them. So when I got to grade one, I was wearing my own clothes and I wasn't wearing like little girls things. I was wearing like pencil skirts with a slit up the back.
Glynis Tao
But you were already a fashionista.
Linda Lundström
I was making adult clothes, but in miniature sizes. And so that was how my career began. And then I just, you know, school was something that I had to contend with when all I really wanted to do was go home and sew. And so consequently, my scholastic records were not great.
I did graduate from high school, but I graduated with a 53% average. So I had some subjects that I was pretty good in, like English and anything creative, but not so good in math and those kinds of subjects. And so my options were limited, but we sent a submission to Sheridan College with photographs of all the things that I had made from the time I was that high to my 17 or 18 year old self, we sent the photographs to Sheridan College and I was accepted and that's where I met my tribe. I met other people like me who were making things and who had shown this ability. And so I was, died and gone to heaven. I mean, that's where I really thrived and I was getting A pluses on my projects and high marks and it was the first time I'd ever experienced that.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that sounds very similar to my story as well. Like, I was not very interested in things in high school except for home economics and sewing classes, the sewing classes that I took.
Linda Lundström
Yes, yeah, home economics was a good one.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Yeah, and then it wasn't until I went to fashion school too that, you know, I felt like I came alive.
Linda Lundström
Which school did you go to?
Glynis Tao
I went to Kwantlen in BC and then I moved out to Toronto and went to Ryerson University.
Linda Lundström
Okay, okay. So and did you study fashion design or fashion merchandising?
Glynis Tao
Fashion design.
Linda Lundström
Okay, oh cool. That's really interesting.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, so then after Sheridan, then did you decide to start your own fashion brand then or?
Linda Lundström
No, no, I knew that I got a certain amount of knowledge from my time at Sheridan College, but I knew that it was more of an academic approach and that to really understand manufacturing and the business, the industry, I needed some practical experience. So I said, okay, I think I was, I think I was 20 when I graduated from Sheridan College and I thought, okay, I need to get some experience in the industry.
So I thought, okay, when I'm 27, I'm going to start. So I'm going to take the next, you know, six, six or so years and I'm just going to learn more. So I, um, I worked for, um, a couturier in Toronto. Then I worked on Spadina Avenue as a pattern maker. And that was really wonderful. It was a company, um, that had been in business for a long time and they took me under their wing and they really enjoyed, you know teaching me how it actually worked in the industry, you know, like going to New York and getting patterns because they had a tie-up in New York.
So they didn't actually create a lot of their own styles, which is something I didn't realize that the Canadian industry was basically based on copying or having a tie-up with a company in New York that was creating the styles and the patterns and then reproducing them here.
I also worked, I also worked for a company in London, England, called Frank Usher because I was awarded a Canadian government scholarship to study abroad for a year. And so I went to London and I was accepted with Frank Usher as an intern. And I worked with them for eight months. And then I went to the south of France and I worked for a company called Chacok.
So you can imagine my learning curve was just, you know, it was going, it was going way up. Yeah. And I came back just full of enthusiasm and thinking, okay, I need another couple of years on Spadina Avenue learning more. And I could not get a job, couldn't get a job. And so that's when I decided to accelerate my plans by a couple of years and, uh, and start my own company.
So call my mom and dad. Said, Mom, Dad, remember when you promised me that when I was ready to start my company, that you'd loan me some money to start it? Well, I'm ready now. And so they did, they kept their promise because my dad was in the mining business, but after being an underground miner for many years, he started his own company in the mining contracting business. And my mom had her own company in our basement where she sold fabric and rented sewing machines.
So that's another part of my story is that when I was about 10 years old or 11 years old, my mom opened this fabric store in her basement, in our basement, and she bought fabric from Eaton's catalog and then she sold it for the same price she paid for it. And she made cake and coffee for everyone that came to her fabric store. And so my dad said, Olive you're losing money. So that's when my mom started. My mom started traveling to Winnipeg, which is like an eight hour, well, it was like a one and a half hour plane ride, but it was an eight hour drive. My mom started going to Winnipeg and buying fabric at wholesale so that she could afford to, you know, mark it up a bit and cover her costs.
So I would come home every day and go downstairs and there would be a fabric store in our basement, right? And so my job was to, my mom also rented out sewing machines because she didn't think that not having a sewing machine was an excuse for not buying fabric. So she started renting sewing machines out to people for a month at a time. And when they came back from the person, they usually, the thread was jammed or something, they needed cleaning, they needed oiling. And that was my job. I became like almost like a sewing machine mechanic. So simple repairs to sewing machines was something that I developed and I love doing that. I love machinery.
And so where was I? So when I was yeah, so I studied in Europe for a year and came back, started my own company in a two-bedroom apartment with a loan from my mom and dad. And that was in 1974.
Glynis Tao
And that was the start of the Linda Lundström brand. Yes. It started out of your parents' home.
Linda Lundström
No, I was in Toronto at this time. My mom and dad were, yeah, I stayed in Toronto because I knew I had to either be in Toronto or Montreal.
And I was sort of a flip of the coin, but I was in Toronto one day, picking up my things that had been in storage out of friends and I ran into one person that I knew. And I thought, okay, I'll stay in Toronto. I know one person here. I didn't know anybody in Montreal.
Glynis Tao
Right, okay.
Linda Lundström
So I rented an apartment, a two bedroom apartment. I had sewing machines in one bedroom. Not many, like two sewing machines, industrial sewing machines. In fact, I still have one of the machines. I don't know if you can see this machine right here.
Glynis Tao
Uh-huh.
Linda Lundström
This machine is an industrial singer sewing machine. And when I bought it in 1974, it was old already. And that machine has not missed a stitch in all those years. It's my favorite machine. It's a beauty.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Yes. And you're still using it.
Linda Lundström
Still using it had the motor replaced once, you know, maintain it as much as I can, because I know about machine maintenance, right? So that's why it's lasted so long. And so I had sewing machines in one room. I had rolling racks in the second bedroom with garments on them and patterns and stuff. My living room was my showroom and it also had a couch in it that was a hide-a-bed. That was where I slept, but in the daytime it was a showroom.
And the dining room was where I built a table, a cutting table. The apartment was one of these old apartments with, the dining room was like the largest room in the apartment. And the way I built the table was if I gained weight, I couldn't get out from behind the table because of the, it fit exactly into that space.
And I started showing my, I made a small collection and I started showing it to people. One thing led to another. It grew very, very slowly. I remember my first year, my sales were $14,000. My second year, they were $30,000. And my third year, I think my sales were over $100,000. And I just kept, you know, I just kept going.
Glynis Tao
Wow. So what was the vision that you had for the brand in the beginning?
Linda Lundström
You know, the mouse that's in a maze and it just goes, it goes where the cheese is.
Glynis Tao
Yeah.
Linda Lundström
You know, that, that whole analogy. The maze? Well, um, the maze and they go for where the cheese is. And so I made my first collection, I made dresses, I made tops, I made sportswear, coordinated sportswear, tops and bottoms, skirts and pants, jackets and blouses. I made coats. I made a lot of different categories. And back then, the industry tended to be in categories. You were either a blouse house, or you were a pant house, or you were a coat house, or you know what I mean?
The industry wasn't set up to be like a concept, a wardrobe concept industry. And I learned pretty quickly that buyers, and I was selling to retail stores, I was trying to sell to retail stores, buyers were used to categorizing. They went to one place for their blouses, they went to another company for their dresses, another company for their coats. So when I put out this collection that had everything in it, coats and everything, I kind of confused the buyers, I think.
And what sold the best was the dresses. Who knew? The dresses sold way better than anything else. So I guess that was a sign that maybe there was a void in the dress end of the industry that for some reason I stumbled upon it. And so what happened with the next collection, I made more dresses. And then the next one, I made even more dresses. I dropped the coats, I, you know, and started going to where the cheese was. And at a certain point, I was I became sort of known as a dress house, which was okay, as I was building my business, but I felt very limited in that category.
But I kept going and my sales kept you know, my sales kept going up. And then an amazing thing happened in 1980. At the age of 30 a very good friend of mine invited me to join her on a trip to Japan. She was in the fabric. She had gone to Sheridan College, but she ended up going into the fabric design end of the business. And at that time, Japan was the main supplier of fabulous fabrics. Today it's China and Korea, but back then it was Japan. And so to be invited to go with her to Japan was an amazing opportunity. And her name is Glynis, by the way.
Glynis Tao
Your friend's name?
Linda Lundström
Yeah, my friend's name was Glynis. Yeah, she changed my life. And so I really didn't have a pot to piss in. Like, I mean, I did, my company was growing, but when you're running a growing company, you're almost always cash poor because you have to finance that growth, right?
And you have to buy more fabric to fill more orders and everything. And so we were running a pretty tight ship and I thought, well, I can't afford to go to Japan. But Glynis said, well, you stay with me in my hotel. You know, well my expenses are all paid. You're just tagging along. So I did. And I took her up on it and I went to Japan and I was mesmerized by the aesthetic.
In Japan, you know, I thought it was going to be a cesspool of humanity with people pushing you and crowding you, not at all. People really respect personal space over there. There were lots of areas that were very spacious and the inside of buildings. It was, it just blew my mind. And the fashion back then was being recognized around the world from Issey Miyake, Rei Kawakubo. It was pulsating with creative energy. And I landed right then in Japan and I got to absorb all that. And what I observed was that the Japanese fashion that was really being recognized around the world, like in Europe and everything, was when you looked at it, it was all geometric shapes that were based on the kimono. They were kind of kimono-esque, but then they had taken that that those geometric shapes and they had morphed them and twisted them and made them into these really unusual things.
And they started to rediscover some of the traditional fabrics of Japan that were being used in modern day, but were actually old ancient textile techniques. And so I thought, wow, it's Japan at that point was really leaning into their natural cultural heritage.
I came back from that trip and I looked at my collection and I went, no wonder I'm working so hard. I'm trying to figure out what's happening in New York, what's happening in Milan, what's happening in Paris. I'm reading Women's Wear Daily, trying to figure out how to stay up with everything. And I felt a little bit like this. I went to Japan and I went, stop. I canceled my subscription to Women's Wear Daily.
I stopped traveling to all the different shows and everything. And I said, okay, what can I make that is to Canada, what the kimono is to Japan? What can I draw upon having grown up in the North in a little tiny town? What was it about that life experience that I can bring into my work now? What is it about? What is, is there a garment? Like, is there a garment that's typically Canadian?
And then my father is from north of the Arctic Circle, was born north of the Arctic Circle in Sweden. And his family was partly Sami, which is the indigenous people of Northern Sweden. And they were called Laplanders. And I, so I'm asking myself, what can I make that is a reflection of my Lapland, Sami heritage, my Canadian experience living in the North. And at that point I was visited with a vision that kept recurring. It's almost like a dream that you have over and over and over and over and over again. And the vision, it was of a figure walking across a frozen horizon. There was no trees. The sky met the ground, which was covered with snow, and there was a very faint line where they met. And the sky was shades of pink, soft pink, soft yellow. And it was, and walking across was this figure with a pointed hood and fur around, walking in profile, and the color of the coat that this person was wearing was the same color as the color of the sky.
So you can, can you see it? Can you, am I painting a good picture?
Glynis Tao
You are, absolutely. I can visualize all of what you're saying.
Linda Lundström
Was very mystical. It just seemed like that vision is so clear in your mind, like. It's almost as though, Glynis, it came from somewhere in, it's almost like I felt like I was channeling. Because it kept coming back and it always came back in the morning when I was waking up but I wasn't fully awake yet. This vision would appear of this woman walking across this horizon. And it was all very dreamy, very dreamy. So I went, oh, well, that's a beautiful parka which I grew up wearing parkas, like we all were parkas, there are little jackets with the fur around here.
Glynis Tao
Yeah.
Linda Lundström
And I've got photographs of me when I'm like two, wearing a parka that my mom had made and, um, cause it was a good, a good design for the North. And then I thought that my father's heritage was from Lapland and they dressed in a, a system of layers also. So the outside layer would be brightly decorated and then inside they would either have wool or they would have reindeer hide inside. So there'd be layers, the outside one being decorated with bright ribbons and everything like that.
So I went, wow, it's almost like a combination of my lap background and a parka. Maybe I should call it Laparka.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, yeah. And that's how La Parka was born.
Linda Lundström
Yes. What started with this vision turned out to be a product that I ended up manifesting. So I had to get spent. I wasn't a coat house. Remember, I had eliminated the coats.
Glynis Tao
Yeah
Linda Lundström
I have this I have this obsession based on this vision to make what I see in my vision. And I told two people what I had in mind. One person was my sales agent in Western Canada that I knew that would be a market for this. And that person laughed at me because their idea of a parka was what you see in Eaton's basement, you know, with rickrack around it. And it wasn't considered to be an iconic garment. He laughed at me. So I fired him because I knew that this was had to happen. I thought he was going to be all enthusiastic and he wasn't. I said, okay, fine. I don't need your energy.
Glynis Tao
You're not on board with this.
Linda Lundström
Yeah. Get lost.
Glynis Tao
Go away.
Linda Lundström
And then I told the second person who was my sort of the person that was helping me run the company, who was a Ryerson graduate. It's now called Metropolitan University, but she went to Ryerson and started with me as an intern and ended up never leaving. And I said, Donna, I've got this idea and I explained to her my vision. And she said, Linda, I can't see it, but if you can see it, I believe you can make it happen. So I support you. Well, three months later, she was killed in a car accident.
Glynis Tao
Oh my gosh.
Linda Lundström
Yeah, but so I had to postpone everything for a year because she was pivotal to my business and everything had to be put on hold for a year. Meanwhile, her passing triggered a lot of things to happen. I ended up getting married, getting pregnant. And by the time I was working on Laparka again, I was pregnant and I had opened up my first Lundström brand store.
And I started accelerating my plans because I thought life is short. Life is short. I was at the age of 30, I had lost somebody really close to me. And that was a reminder that, you know, if you've got plans, just get them done. So I have this vision, right? I have this vision.
And in case you're noticing my hands, my hands, I have two brains. One brain is in here and one brain is in my hands. My hands do things almost on their own. And that's how I built the Laparka. I ended up getting fabric from a supplier that I had never bought from before. It was the wool duffel, getting a machine that I didn't know if it was gonna work or not due to the blanket stitching. I went to a show in Paris for fabrics because I wanted to get the fur for around the hood. And I didn't think of using real fur because I didn't know, I hadn't learned how to handle real fur, you know. You need cold storage. I wasn't knowledgeable in real fur, so I thought I'm gonna get a fur fabric.
And I went to a fabric show in Paris with hundreds of exhibitors. Like literally, I'm talking four football fields full of booths selling fabric. And I went down the first aisle of the first hall. I was about halfway down that aisle, and I turned and there's a company selling the most beautiful fur, man-made fur. In all the colors that I was thinking of doing, like royal blue, red, ivory, all the colors matched exactly. I'd only been at the show for 15 minutes and I went, oh wow. So I took their card and I said, okay guys, there's gotta be more. If we found these guys this easily, there's gotta be more companies that we can go and compare prices and everything. We went, we spent the next two days going up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down all the halls. And that was the only company that had fur.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Sounds as if it was meant to be.
Linda Lundström
Yeah. I mean, you know, if something falls into your lap, what I've learned if something falls into your lap, it's kind of divine intervention and pay attention because when you're making something that came to you in a vision, then you have to be prepared for magic to happen along the journey, you know? And so when that happened, I went, poof. This is amazing.
Glynis Tao
That just confirmed it to you.
Linda Lundström
That said, totally, totally, it totally confirmed. And I ended up doing business with that company for the next 25 years.
Glynis Tao
Wow.
Linda Lundström
Right So I come back from, I've ordered all this fabric, I've ordered the fur, hasn't arrived yet. I've ordered a machine, I don't know if it's gonna work, a blanket stitch machine, not this machine, another machine, a blanket stitch machine that I don't know if it's gonna work. I'm up to my maximum at my bank in terms of my line of credit, I can't tell my bank that I've gone out and I've gone out and spent all this money on this vision.
Like, what am I going to do? Go to the bank and say, yeah, I'm a little over my line of credit because I had a vision. And they don't want to hear that.
Glynis Tao
They want to hear that you're actually doing making sales.
Linda Lundström
They want to see cash flow projections. Yes. A balance sheet. You know, they want to see all that stuff, which was like, so on one morning, one morning when I was on my way to work. We were waiting for everything to arrive. And I...I was coming down the Don Valley Parkway, I'll never forget it, and there's an overpass right around Richmond, where you can go off onto Richmond, there's an overpass right there. And I all of a sudden was filled with doubt. I went, you know, my inner voice was saying, what the hell have you done? You know, does that ever happen to you, Glynis? When you feel like you're taking a risk and then you get filled with doubt?
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it just comes out of nowhere and sinks you down
Linda Lundström
It comes out of nowhere and it kind of sinks like a hot lead stone in there right? Oh, God, what have I done? And so as I was coming up on from the Don Valley Parkway way up onto the Gardiner Expressway. Those of you who are in Toronto, you know exactly what I mean.
Out of nowhere in front of me comes this truck. And on the back of the truck is written the words Laparkan, la L-A-P-A-R-K-A. So Laparka with an N at the end.
Glynis Tao
Wow, talk about a sign.
Linda Lundström
At the very moment when I'm being filled with such doubt. Yes. Oh my God. And again, I didn't just take it for face value and say, Oh, it's a sign I'm on the right track. No, I went, damn it. Somebody stole my name and they've got a truckload on the road delivering it.
Glynis Tao
And so did that just, you know, increase the doubt?
Linda Lundström
It increased the doubt, right? And underneath the big laparcan, it said for all your shipping needs. Oh my God. It was a white truck, I'll never forget it. And so I got into work, we were on WellinGlynis Taoon Street back then, and I'm going through the phone, back then we had phone books, okay? I'm going through the phone book and I see Laparkan. I dial the number, someone answers the phone, Laparkan. I said, what kind of company is this? And she said, we ship boxes and barrels to the Caribbean. Oh do you make coats? No, but we'll ship them to the Caribbean for you. So that was my sign, Laparkan. Isn't that amazing?
Glynis Tao
Wow, that is an amazing story.
Linda Lundström
And you know what? I've got the, where's the?
Glynis Tao
You know, I'm all into this stuff, this like synchronicities and you know, signs.
Linda Lundström
Oh yeah, are you? Okay, I'm just looking around. I've got the photograph. Oh, I should have been prepared with the button. Okay, so years later, when we're doing like $10 million of sales of Laparka, and we've moved a couple of times to bigger premises because we're, you know, our sales are going up, the bank is inviting me out for lunch, for God's sakes, putting me in their annual, I'm a success story in terms of the bank, who I never told I was doing this.
And we're selling Laparkas like crazy and I went, you know what, I tell the story of the truck. I need, I need some evidence. So I call up Laparkan and they are still in business. I said, I had a friend who was Jamaican. I said, I want to ship a barrel to your family in Jamaica. So I called the Laparkan and I said, um, I, I want to, I want to, I want to pick up, got a barrel here, uh, going to, um, Jamaica. So my friend was thrilled because her family, you know, we put all kinds of fabric in there and we put all kinds of food in there and everything like that.
So the truck arrives and it's not white, it's brown. I said, oh, okay, well, stand on the bumper. I wanna take a picture of you. And so I took a picture of myself with this truck with the Laparkan. I said, what happened to the white truck? They said, oh, that broke down years ago.
I said, oh. I said, how many trucks did you have on the road? He said, oh, we've only ever had one.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, and that was the one that you saw in front of you that day when you were all filled with doubt and ready to give up.
Linda Lundström
Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that's my appeared, the sign appeared. Yeah.
Glynis Tao
That is an amazing story. But so you've been…
Linda Lundström
My journey has been a series of magical, synchronistic, divine things that have happened on my path that have directed me, you know in the way, the path that I'm supposed to take.
So after 34 years in business and being taken to lunch by my bank and receiving a lot of the awards, which you mentioned, I've received some, they're up here on my window sill here now.
I've got some wonderful awards where I was recognized for our business practices, for innovation. Because we weren't just innovating our product, but we were innovating the way we did business, the way our factory was set up, our employee relationships. For example, we didn't have sick we didn't have sick days, we had wellness days, and everybody got wellness days. So if you just didn't feel like coming to work, and you knew that you were not going to feel like coming to your, maybe your child had a dentist appointment or you had a doctor's, whatever you need to do to be well, you could use those days for that and not feel guilty that you called in, pretended to be sick.
How many people have called in, pretended to be sick when they weren't really sick, they just needed a day off. So in our company, I didn't want anybody to do that, have to do that. I said, you've got wellness days, you use them however you want, you don't have to be sick.
Glynis Tao
That's unheard of in the fashion industry. Linda. Well, that's something, yeah.
Linda Lundström
Well, that's something that I just.
Glynis Tao
It's usually more cut throat than that. People just expect you to work.
Linda Lundström
Yeah, no, because my dad had his own business and my mom had her own business. And my dad's business in particular in the mining business, he always would say to me, Linda, you gotta be good to your men because it was all men that worked in the mines. And his way of showing that was to, there was a remote mining site where they were working. He would make sure they had steak and roast beef and had a cook that could bake fresh bread. And the food becomes really important if you're in the bush working long hours in a mine in the cold, food becomes very important. And he knew that. And so I had, my mom and my dad were my role models really.
And also in my mom's fabric store in the basement, indigenous women would come from the reserves all around. If you look on a map of where Red Lake is, there's Pikangikum, there's Sandy Lake, there's Deer Lake, there's Great Bear Lake, Bear Skin Lake. All these indigenous communities would fly into Red Lake and the women would fly in, then they would take a taxi to my mom's store in Cochenar, which is another little town that's 20 miles from Red Lake. And they would come to my mom's store, and the town that we lived in then was 250 people. So we were moving up from the first town I told you about. And they would spend hours, and I would be down there, and they didn't speak English.
And we didn't speak Anishinaabegway, but we would spend hours together just feeling fabric and looking at fabric and laughing. And one of the things my mom did was she really honored the beautiful work that the women were doing with home-tent moose hide deer hide, moccasins, mukluks, gloves, gauntlets because we wore mukluks all winter long. We didn't wear boots up there because when it snowed, it didn't melt. It just snowed and then it snowed some more and more and more and more. And so it was clean. The winter was clean. And so you could walk around in your mukluks and it was the warmest type of footwear and curling sweaters. We also curled in these curling sweaters with the different reindeer and everything and all. And that was another thing that I incorporated into my collection.
And these women would come to the fabric center and they would have available really good fabrics to line their mukluks because what they were doing is they were making beautiful mukluks and moccasins, but then they didn't have lining so they would take an old shirt or something and they'd line this beautiful moccasin with it. My mom said, no, here's the fabric you need to line them. So it elevated the perceived value of them.
And I can remember going downstairs and the smell of that home tanned moose hide. Have you ever smelled hometanned hide?
Glynis Tao
No.
Linda Lundström
Oh, it has a most, it has this smoky smell that's instantly recognizable. And these were all home tanned, which is really a dying process up north because, well, we won't get into that. But anyway, this wonderful fragrance of the smoke would come up the stairs. And so mom was taking orders for moccasins and mukluks by a person would draw their foot out on a piece of paper. My mom would give that piece of paper to one of the indigenous women. They would make the product, you know, there was a whole like, and they would trade it for, they would often, they would often get money for it or they were happy to get traded for fabric so that they could, you know, and it, it was just a really wonderful symbiotic relationship.
And in the process, I got to feel I got to love these women and really admire and respect them. And it was the beginning of my of a sense of purpose that I had in my life to be an ally to indigenous people.
Glynis Tao
I wanted to talk to you about the sewing circle project a little bit. But before I get to that. Maybe you can go back. But yeah, I'm just so amazed by the story that you told me about the La Parka and how it came to be. And so you've always produced your product in Canada.
Linda Lundström
Yes
Glynis Tao
That's something that you believed in, that you never wanted to go overseas and do any overseas production. You kept it all in Canada. And you also had your own factory and one point in Toronto that you.
Linda Lundström
I do have to say though, Glynis, that there was a period of two years when I was making this whole, I was making a whole concept wardrobe. So by then I had educated the buyers to the idea that you could have a Laparka with a matching sweater with a matching boot, with a matching turtleneck, with a matching, you know what I mean?
Like, so if there was a Laparka in a color called Opal Ice, there was a whole family of products that went with it. And one of those products was sweaters. And at the time it was very difficult to find sweater manufacturers in Canada. I had one that was in Kitchener who did a very good job but I wanted to do these curling sweaters that had all these designs and everything on them. And so somebody said, well, you've got to go to China, got to go to Hong Kong. So for two years I did. I was manufacturing my sweaters in Hong Kong.
And I ran into what a lot of companies now and back then were running into, which is in that business, there's minimums required. You can't just go and order 23 of that sweater. You have to order 123 of that sweater. You have to pay upfront with a letter of credit before you've even seen the product. There were all kinds of contributing factors that led to me feeling a sense of loss of control. And I would say 75% of the shipments arrived exactly as I thought they would. Great quality exactly as I had designed them, but more quantity than I actually had sales for, for example. So I'm left with inventory, which I had to clear. And the 25% that didn't arrive as I wanted it to, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I just said, no, I can't do this. This is too, if I'm going to screw up, I want to be the person that screws up here in Canada. I don't want my reputation affected when somebody makes an error halfway around the world.
And by that time, I've got a young family. I'm, you know, I have small children. I didn't want to be traveling because a lot of people that do manufacture offshore, you know, they're traveling there all the time. So that's when I recommitted to made in Canada. And I said, okay, everybody's going offshore everybody's swimming downstream. And I was like the little fish that was swimming upstream saying, if we can't make it in Canada, then maybe we shouldn't be making it. And so my entire company was based on designing things that could be made in Canada, rather than designing things that had to be made somewhere else.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And so is that when you decide to open your own lean manufacturing facility?
Linda Lundström
No. Well, I didn't actually open a lean manufacturing facility. What happened was, at the beginning of my company, I was using contractors for the production of my things. And they were contractors in Toronto. And what started happening was the same thing 75% would be perfect. And 25% would not and we'd have to either recut or correct or whatever. And I just went no I've got to be more in control of my own. I've got to be able to walk over to something that's being made and identify if it's being made properly and if it's not, then to stop and fix it before it's all finished. So I had my own sewing machine operators. And when my contractors started not being able to fulfill the quality that I wanted, I began to buy machines, but not all at once, buy sewing machines, hire sewing machine operators, and gradually I brought my production in-house, but I was still using a batch bundle system of manufacturing, which means that, you know, you cut all the size eights and you bundle all the size eights and then you cut all the size tens and you bundle all the size tens and then you move the bundles to the first operation and they do all of the surging on the whatever and then they bundle it back up and move it over to the, that's batch manufacturing. And I was using that method.
In 1999, I think it was, 1999, we hired a consultant to help us to be better at delivering product to the customer when they wanted it and decrease our turnaround time. Because using the bundle method, there's a lot of time when those garments are sitting in a bundle waiting waiting for the next operation.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, there's a lot of work in progress.
Linda Lundström
Exactly. How do we eliminate? Yes. How do we eliminate that wait time? How do we eliminate waste? Basically. And so for a period of about three months, we worked with this consultant and learned about lean manufacturing. And we converted the existing batch manufacturing factory into a lean manufacturing. And it was met with a fair amount of resistance by the employees, not so much the employees who were sewing machine operators, but by the middle management, because what it did was lean manufacturing empowers the person who's doing the work. So the actual sewing machine operator was empowered to make decisions that would improve the turnaround time, the flow. And it took away the sort of power, I guess, of the middle managers.
And so what happened was the sewing machine operators began to take ownership for improving our turnaround time. And it became like a really exciting and fun atmosphere because it involved, I don't need to get into detail about what lean manufacturing is, but it goes from bundling and batching to single unit production.
So instead of cutting all the size eights that we need for all the customers in all of North America at one time, we would only cut the size eights for the customers that wanted that style and that color early. So instead of cutting something once, we might cut it 10 times. But that was okay because we had computerized cutting machines, their capacity, we hadn't even reached the maximum capacity that they were capable of, but we had a constraint in our sewing. So by slowing down the cutting, we went from batch manufacturing to single unit production. So one garment would start being made and we put the machines in the order in which the operations had to be made so that garment would be finished in seven minutes. So it went from a cut garment to being shippable in seven minutes as opposed to having 100 garments, 20% made, that weren't gonna be shippable for another three weeks. So it was so exciting, honestly.
Glynis Tao
Wow.
Linda Lundström
It was so exciting because we started seeing real improvements in the way our customers were, because we had merchandise, we had a whole merchandise concept, some customers only wanted to do two colors of Laparka and all the things that went with it, it didn't matter to them that somebody in Oklahoma wanted these other two colors. But they didn't want theirs until later. So what it meant was let's make these guys first, get them out, and then we'll go and focus on this order over here. And so our customers were happier, our employees were happier, we reduced our management staff and increased our sewing staff.
Glynis Tao
Wow, so improved the overall efficiency of everything.
Linda Lundström
We don't use the word efficiency because efficiency applies to batch manufacturing. So it's very efficient to take a bundle of 100 garments and surge everything.
Glynis Tao
Yeah.
Linda Lundström
And then bundle it. That's efficiency, right? If you take it in isolation. In lean Yes, versus efficiency because you can be efficient but not productive. You know what I mean? It's like when you go to Costco and you buy enough kiwi fruit to last you for a month, that's very efficient. But it's not very productive when you have to throw half of it out because it goes bad in your fridge.
Glynis Tao
Wow. Yeah, because I think, you know, this lean manufacturing is being more adopted into production. Now I'm seeing it more, but the still the bundling system is still the most common way that they do production, especially if it's overseas, their majority is the bundling system. But very rarely do people go into the lean manufacturing. So you are just really like ahead of your time in all of this.
Linda Lundström
Absolutely. And we've always been ahead of our time. I've always been ahead of my time in terms of embracing technology. When we were back when we were only doing like a million dollars in sales, I brought in Electra, Electra being the company from France that produces the best CAD CAM systems. I brought in Electra pattern making pattern grading. So back in the 80s, I had computerized pattern making. And I was I think I was the first company in Toronto that had that. Even though we were a relatively small company, I didn't see, like people think, oh, you know, computerized, you have to be a big company. No, you don't. In our case, it enabled us to become a big company.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, that is really ahead of the time because I don't know that many people, even when I started in the industry in the 90s, who were using computerized pattern making, it was still very manual.
I worked at Club Monaco actually, which was my first job. They were over on King and Spadina. That's where the head office was based and they did their manufacturing on King Street when they still did their production locally in Canada. But a lot of the pattern making was still done like manually. And this was like late 90s. But you doing this in the 80s, seriously, this is amazing. So would you say a lot of this foresight from hearing your story now of you having the vision of Laparka, seeing the truck after you felt so much doubt and that make you of, okay, this is the sign to move ahead. And then, you know, being ahead of staying ahead of technology and implementing the lean manufacturing and all the technology and stuff like, would you say like all of this contributed to your overall success and your longevity in the industry?
Linda Lundström
Well, yeah, but there's another part to this story, Glynis.
Glynis Tao
Oh.
Linda Lundström
There's another part to this story. It gets even better. So where am I now? Well, guess what? I'm gonna pick up the phone. I'm making paper patterns in my studio. I do not have computerized pattern making equipment. I've gone back to the way I was working in 1974 in that two bedroom apartment. And my life has come full circle.
I started in a two-bedroom apartment and I'm now in a two-bedroom house with a studio in the upstairs. But I built a multi-million dollar company at one point. We were doing over 13 million dollars in sales. I realized, I set out, when I was at Sheridan College, I envisioned having, someday having a state-of-the-art manufacturing facility. I didn't know about lean back then, but I created everything together with a community of people that came, found me, and helped me. I had a wonderful team of people that joined me on that journey, including my husband Joel, who was a chartered accountant, and he came in right at the point where the numbers were starting to get bigger, I needed somebody I could trust managing the money.
Right around to 2008, when for the first time, in 2007 for the first time, I had a decline in sales. And in 2008, the bank called my loan and gave us 30 days to pay back $3 million.
Glynis Tao
Oh.
Linda Lundström
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
So what did you do?
Linda Lundström
I don't know if you remember what happened in 2008.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. Well, that was the time of the recession, right?
Linda Lundström
There was a world financial crisis.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, the economy tanked, the world financial crisis, New York.
Linda Lundström
World financial crisis. And you know, a lot of Canadian banks were involved in the whole fiasco happening south of the border with subprime mortgages and all that sort of stuff. Somebody in a suit in an office on Bay Street at my bank decided that we were off margin with our loan and we were often off margin with our loan because we had a cyclical business, we were a seasonal business. So there were times when we were over our credit limit and times when the bank owed us money, you know, so it was, it was, and the bank rock and rolled with us through those highs and lows.
Well, somebody decided, okay, we're being put under pressure here, we better call in any loans that are off margin. So the bank called our loan. I'm now, my girls are teenagers, I'm now in my 50s. I've been working hard my whole life. I didn't have a plan B. I never had a plan B. I never had a plan that, well, if this company in this two bedroom apartment doesn't work, I'll do this. If this company in this state of the art, I never had a plan B. So for the first time in my whole career, I started thinking about what my plan B would be, if I had one.
And I just, my husband and I looked at one another and we said, I don't think we can do this anymore. I don't think we wanna borrow more money to pay off the bank, owe somebody else money, put everything we have on the line and risk it all again. And you know what, it was a good decision because in January of 2008 when the bank called our loan was the beginning of the financial crisis, it got worse. And so it became a bloodbath. And so we ended up paying back the bank in 30 days, believe it or not.
We just put our heads down and we said, okay, everything's for sale. We're gonna liquidate. We're gonna, anything that's not nailed down, we're gonna sell it. And we ended up paying back the bank, which gave us a little bit of breathing room and enough time to find a buyer. And we found a buyer and sold the company in 2008. And in 2010, we left Toronto and moved to our cottage, and that's where I'm speaking to you from today.
Glynis Tao
Wow, what a story. Oh my god.
Linda Lundström
Yeah. So one of my speeches, I'm a speaker, and one of my topics is the F word. And the F word is how to how to ride that wild bronco that's failure.
Glynis Tao
Yeah.
Linda Lundström
And now, you know, I live on a lake surrounded by beautiful cedar trees. My husband and I are together. My girls are good. And I have this little studio that's about the same size as that. No, it's smaller than the two-bedroom apartment that I had in 1974. And I have paper patterns and I'm having a ball.
My joy, my joy still comes from making things. And so in this little studio, we use lean manufacturing. We don't have digital patterns, but we do have single unit production.
Glynis Tao
And is this where you make all your Therma Kōta products?
Linda Lundström
Yes.
Glynis Tao
And so now you're in the studio kind of made full circle, kind of sort of where you started with your first industrial sewing machine still there working away.
Linda Lundström
Yes, I have other machines too.
Glynis Tao
Other machines and you're doing paper patterns. And you are working with your daughters you co-founded this new company with.
Linda Lundström
Yes.
Glynis Tao
My daughter and my daughter, my one daughter lives in Los Angeles and my other daughter lives in Ireland. And when we began Therma Kōta in 2016, we were working remotely with each other. So when COVID hit, it was no big deal. We were just, it was the same, same way we'd been working for four years.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, yeah.
Linda Lundström
I'm here in my studio and we have FaceTime and we have you know, we talk every day and they're responsible for the front end, which is, you know, the photo, photography, the website, the image of the brand. Sophie is also a wonderful model. And Mosha is more director of marketing, which is, you know, positioning the brand as a, you know, premium brand of mostly shearling.
So if you go to thermakota.com, you'll see the shearling styles that we make. And shearling by its very nature has to be cut one at a time. And so one of the one of the unique aspects of Therma Kōta is that we offer our customers at no extra charge a custom-made garment. So they give us their measurements and I often have to call the customer just to verify the measurement because I'm thinking, you know, somebody five foot eight could not have a sleeve that short. So I called them and said, I think maybe we needed a better sleeve measurement. And so it gives us a chance to really interact with the customer.
And then we go ahead and make about 75% of our orders, I would say maybe 80 are custom. And we've only had two instances where we had returns and they were both from men. We do make a man's product as well. And the men made a little error in their measurements. And so I had to, but we've only had two returns and we've made hundreds of shearling jackets.
Glynis Tao
You are strictly online with this business, right?
Linda Lundström
Strictly online and I said to my daughter when she said, mom, I think we should get into the outerwear business. And I said, well, she said, we could sell at Barney's, we could sell at Lord and Taylor, we could sell. I said, no, I was in the retail, I was in the wholesale business selling to boutiques for 34 years. I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna do it again, I've done that. So we decided to focus on online and people place their orders, they pay for their orders, we ship their orders.
Glynis Tao
A very clean order, no extra inventory, no excess production.
Linda Lundström
Exactly.
Glynis Tao
And I know that you have a philosophy. Going back to your mother. You have a motto is waste not want not.
Linda Lundström
Yeah
Glynis Tao
I saw that. And, you know, do you want to speak a little bit about that and how that applies in your business, Therma Kōta now and how you guys approach the sustainability?
Linda Lundström
It's a philosophy of life, Glynis. It's the way I look at life. I don't want to waste anything. Even this morning, I knew I was going to be speaking with you and I decided to sleep in. I decided to just let myself have a nice long sleep because I didn't want to waste that precious time where I could do that, where I didn't have something that had to be done. So I was taking advantage of that. But it wastes not want not. I mean, when we lived up in the mining communities up north, I don't remember us ever having garbage. All the food waste went into the garden.
I designed everything according to the material that I'm using. And a lot of times, when I was teaching at George Brown College, my students tended to do it the other way around. They'd be sketching all these designs and then they'd go out and try and find fabric that would suit the designs. And it was quite often a miss because the design might have been good, the fabric might have been great, but they didn't go together. So I feel it's really important to let the material you're using speak to you about what to make out of it.
Glynis Tao
Um, so just before we wrap up, well, I had a couple questions left, first of all, about you'd spoke about you finding a sense of purpose, which was becoming an ally of First Nations. And that's the reason why. Is that reason why you started the sewing circle project?
Linda Lundström
Yes, yes. Yeah, no, the sewing circle, the sewing circle is really an intention that I have to support Indigenous communities to be able to make, to be more clothing independent and be able to make things in their community, by their community members, and for the appreciation of people visiting their communities or, you know, for example, right now I'm working with a group in Georgian Bay, the First Nation on Christian Island, and we're gonna be starting a sewing circle there.
Sometimes the sewing circle is just me sourcing fabric or supplies for a community and arranging for shipment to that community because they may not know who to go to for a particular fabric or whatever. And because I have a network of suppliers from my business, so I can connect, you know, the supplier with the community. And quite often I'm an intermediary for sourcing supplies.
So for example, I've had fabric shipped to Pond Inlet, which is a northern point of Baffin Island. I've sourced machinery, in that case, machinery and fabric. I've sent fabric to Deer Lake, which is one of the communities north of Red Lake, Maskwacis in Alberta. So, Peawanuck, Moose Factory. Sometimes all I'm providing is supplies. I'm an intermediary, I source things. And I don't charge a markup for that, it's just something that I love to do.
And the work that I'm doing with the Georgian Bay community is they want to have a store and a workshop where they actually can make things to sell to tourists that are indigenous to that area and to those people of that first nation. And so I'm gonna help them understand how to make patterns, how to do lean manufacturing and make sure it set them up with the proper connections to suppliers.
Glynis Tao
Sounds like a wonderful initiative.
Linda Lundström
Yeah, it started out as one thing and then it kind of took on a life of its own and it's become sort of a variety of different services, but it's all intended to support the talent that lies within Indigenous communities that just needs to have access to the right materials at the right prices, you know?
Glynis Tao
Amazing. So last question. For aspiring fashion designers and entrepreneurs listening to this podcast, what piece of advice would you like to share based on your experiences in the industry?
Linda Lundström Um. Start lifting weights, make sure you're physically fit. People don't think of fashion designers as being, you know, having to be physically fit, but it's really important because it's a very physically demanding job. It's not just sketching, it's lifting rolls of fabric, and quite often they're full rolls of fabric, which is pretty bloody heavy.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So in the beginning, like in most cases, just like yourself, you know, you had to do everything, right?
Linda Lundström
That's right.
Glynis Tao
And that included lifting, heavy lifting, carrying bolts of fabric, right?
Linda Lundström
That's right. And you look around and you go, well, there's no man, there's no muscular man standing there. People underestimate how physically fit you need to be to be in this business. You don't know what's gonna come at you, even lifting finished garments for a fashion show and carrying them, you know.
Glynis Tao
Oh, no kidding.
Linda Lundström
Schlepping garments around, schlepping garments around in garment bags. That's my one piece of advice. My other piece of advice is to find, find a purpose and a path that is unique to you, that you can offer to the world. And that might not come to you right away, but always be looking for what that could be for you.
For me, it really started when I said, what can I make that says Canadian, as a kimono is Japanese. And that's when I started to really develop my identity as a designer. So who you are, where you come from, what your family is all about, what culture did you grow up in? What is your perception of fashion and how does it fit into what you wanna do? I see, it's one of the questions I have about, when I see a designer who's clearly not a sample size and is sending models down the runway that are, you know, size two. And yet when that designer walks out on the runway, they're not size two or anywhere close to size two. And I'm thinking, wow, it'd be so great if you were designing for people your size, you know? There's some kind of a disconnect there for me. It's so much easier if you could just so as a result, I'm not a small person myself. I'm 5'9", and I'm a good size 14, 12-14, and my fit became popular within the population that was my size, because they knew that my things would fit them. And when, and people would come to me and say, oh, your things, I'm so tiny, I'm so tiny.
And I go, yeah, well, there are tiny designers that would make things that would be perfect for you. You know, and it doesn't mean to say that, like I have lots of customers that are five foot one, five foot two, it doesn't mean that I've excluded anybody. It just means that I'm starting from a point of familiarity for me.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, very good point. And I think that's what contributed to your longevity and probably still what keeps you going is that you are designing in terms of it from a point of place of alignment. That's what I see.
Linda Lundström
Yeah, that's it. That's it.
Glynis Tao
That's kind of the I feel this theme that's carrying, carrying through out this conversation that I'm having is that I'm seeing from what I'm hearing you say, you know
Linda Lundström
Yeah, and you have to be you have to be aware of the signs and signals that the universe has sent. This sounds like me, sound like a wing nut, but I really, I'm proof that if you pay attention to the signs and signals that the universe is sending you, that you will, if you pay attention to the signs and signals that the universe sends you on your path, that are meant to direct you in a certain way, believe, have faith that if you follow that path, it will take you somewhere good.
Glynis Tao
Oh, I love that. Thank you so much, Linda.
Linda Lundström
And even going bankrupt, having my company fail in 2008, even that was a gift. And the second thing besides being physically strong that I wanna share with people as a piece of advice is that I've gone through life believing that everything is a gift. Everything is a gift. Growing up in the bush turned out to be a gift. Losing my company in 2008 became a gift because now I live on a lake surrounded by cedar trees and I'm working in my studio and I'm still doing what I love. So losing my company was a gift because I would have been in worse shape if I'd clung onto it and not listened to what the universe was telling me.
So everything in life in business is a gift. And if you have that belief, if you have that belief, then you will find that no matter what happens, you can survive it, you can thrive and be happy.
Glynis Tao
Amazing. I mean, from someone who's been through it all.
Linda Lundström
And that's right.
Glynis Tao
You know, been through the ups and downs. Where can people find you if they wanna get in touch with you? You're on TikTok.
Linda Lundström
I'm on TikTok. I'm on Instagram. Follow me on TikTok at @lifehackslinda.
Glynis Tao
Yeah.
Linda Lundström
They can follow me on Instagram. On Instagram, I think I'm @lundstromlinda, and those are my two main platforms. And I don't participate that much on Facebook, although I do have somebody that is posting for me on Facebook from time to time.
Glynis Tao
Perfect.
Linda Lundström
And then if you go to thermakota.com, it's possible to get a message to me through that.
Glynis Tao
Okay, amazing. Thank you so much for being here today and sharing your insight and knowledge about the fashion industry with us.
In this episode, retail growth strategist Cristin Zaccareo shares insights on wholesale expansion for clothing brands. She emphasizes the importance of considering factors such as scale, profitability, and growth potential before pursuing wholesale distribution.
Cristin also discusses the challenges brands face in wholesale expansion and provides advice on overcoming them. She highlights the significance of brand positioning, differentiation, and consistent storytelling in standing out in the competitive wholesale market. Additionally, Cristin offers tips on pricing, negotiating, and maintaining brand identity across different retail channels. She concludes with advice for brands looking to expand into wholesale and recommends software and tools for successful wholesale expansion.
About Cristin Zaccareo
Cristin is a strategic leader with 15 years of experience working with leading luxury retail companies as well as mid- and mass-market retailers such as Estée Lauder Companies, Shiseido Company, Lord & Taylor, and Ross Stores. Cristin has a strong history of constantly finding new methods to unlock value, drive sales, and evolve business models in an ever-changing retail landscape.
Her company CGZ Consulting strives to empower digitally native retailers to unlock their full potential through the implementation of wholesale expansion strategies.
Takeaways
Key Factors for Wholesale Distribution
Clothing brands should assess their current profitability, operational efficiency, and growth potential before considering wholesale distribution. This includes ensuring that backend operations are streamlined and ready for scaling.
Importance of Inventory Management and Systems
As brands expand into wholesale, managing inventory on a larger scale becomes crucial. Implementing ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) and WMS (Warehouse Management Systems) can automate and optimize business processes, essential for managing increased inventory and operations.
Understanding Retail Buyer Cycles and Compliance
Brands must adapt to different buying cycles of retailers, which can range from three to twelve months. Also, being EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) compliant is critical for seamless transactions with large retailers, as it allows for electronic order transmission.
Negotiating Terms and Pricing Strategies
Brands entering wholesale must navigate negotiation challenges, including setting favorable pricing, payment terms, and promotional strategies with retailers. Ensuring profitability and consistency in pricing across various sales channels is key.
Brand Positioning and Differentiation
Successful wholesale expansion requires strong brand positioning and the ability to differentiate in the competitive market. Brands should leverage marketing materials and storytelling to highlight their unique value proposition to both retailers and customers.
Chapters
00:00 Factors to Consider Before Pursuing Wholesale Distribution
04:08 Challenges in Wholesale Expansion and How to Overcome Them
06:55 Key Factors to Consider Before Pursuing Wholesale Distribution
11:04 Scaling from Boutiques to Department Stores
17:25 Brand Positioning and Differentiation in Wholesale Expansion
18:25 Marketing Strategies for Wholesale Expansion
20:16 Creating Exclusive Products for Big Box Stores
23:05 Handling Returns and Cancellations in Wholesale
25:55 Negotiating Pricing and Margins in Wholesale
27:22 The Challenge of Pricing for Sustainable Brands
29:15 Advice for Brands Considering Wholesale Expansion
35:51 Brand Consistency and Storytelling in Wholesale Expansion
41:07 Software and Tools for Wholesale Expansion
43:58 Final Advice and Tips for Wholesale Expansion
My guest today is retail growth strategist, Cristin Zaccareo. Cristin is a strategic leader with 15 years of experience working with leading luxury retail companies, as well as mid and mass market retailers, such as Estee Lauder companies, Shiseido Company, Lord & Taylor, and Ross stores. Cristin has a strong history of constantly finding new methods to unlock value, drive sales and evolve business models in an ever-changing retail landscape. Her company, CGZ Consulting, strives to empower digitally native retailers to unlock their full potential through the implementation of wholesale expansion strategies. Welcome, Cristin. It's so nice to have you here. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Cristin Zaccareo
I'm excited to be here.
Glynis Tao
Can you please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background as a retail growth strategist.
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah, so you covered a lot of it, but I've held various positions, mostly on the merchandising side. So whether it's financial planning and analysis, merchandising, buying in beauty and apparel with mid to mass market. So I've dealt with everything from really teeny brands to really big political brands.
And about a year ago, I started a consulting practice, um, helping direct to consumer companies implement strategies for wholesale growth. After having my second child, I took a little bit of a pause and realized that, you know, I was lucky enough to need a little bit of flexibility and able to, to have that. Um, so, you know, I started out. Okay, I want to be a retail consultant. Here's my entire background. And that was entirely too broad for people. So I started to speak to some founders and VCs and private equity companies and found out that there was definitely a need after this massive DTC boom that we've had over the last 10 years. And especially during the pandemic, because now, you know, marketing costs are sky high and there's not as much funding as there was.
And the customer is extremely picky where before it was so easy to make, it was like free money everywhere. Um, and now, you know, we have to be a lot more thoughtful with how we're spending money and a lot of that means that there needs to be an omni-channel growth strategy. It can't just be, um, direct to consumer.
So I'm helping companies understand the key differences between brick and mortar and digital. Um, some of them might wanna just do a wholesale in the digital model, and that's okay. And then others might wanna say, hey, I need to understand stores. So I'm here to kind of help, you know, guide the way and figure out what are the key differences and, you know, how can we approach retailers showing that your brand fills white space and coming across as really enticing.
Glynis Tao
Excellent. What are some common challenges that clothing brands face when it comes to wholesale expansion? How do you typically advise them to overcome those hurdles?
Cristin Zaccareo
So I think that the biggest one as any company is experiencing growth is planning and managing inventory on a larger scale may require some changes to your operations. So you might need to implement ERP or WMS systems.
If anyone is not familiar, ERP is an enterprise resource planning system. And so it's designed to automate processes across your entire business. So it includes anything from marketing and sales, human resources, and then inventory and financial planning. And then WMS is warehouse management. So it's truly used to optimize warehouse operations. And that's really when you get to be a little bit bigger. ERP is the best place to start. So just understanding that those are things that you're gonna need.
Other key differences is the buying cycle is different. So a direct to consumer company might be able to place an order, you know, 60 to 90 days ahead of when they need it and they're gonna get their inventory. That's not how retailers buy, depending on if it's off price or more full line, like a department store. They might buy three to 12 months out. So if it's a beauty brand, it could be 12, nine to 12 months out. And part of that is because they need to change their in-store setup. They might need to change their staffing models, in apparel, same thing. So they're going to need to change their floor setup, depending on its seasonality, what does staffing look like? What does marketing look like? So aligning your buying cycle with that of a retailer can be really helpful. That also gives you more scale with your manufacturers, which should allow you to negotiate better pricing.
And then something that is really an older school thing that some of these bigger box retailers are gonna want is are you EDI compliant? So can you transmit orders electronically? And that, you know, at first is gonna look like a little bit of a manual process for you.
But over time, if you're a denim brand, it's extremely easy where the retailer sells one week, let's say 50 units of your size 27 jean. And then the next week, they're just going to send you an order of, hey, the system automatically will generate, we sold this, we need this, we're going to forecast that we're going to need this much more. So it's really, it's not, no longer becomes a manual process. So just understanding those components and talking that language is really helpful when you're starting to look into doing wholesale business.
Glynis Tao
Okay, great advice. In your experience, what are the key factors that clothing brands should consider before deciding to pursue wholesale distribution?
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah, I think you need to look at, you know, what is the scale that you want? How profitable are you right now? And can you scale growth? And do you need it to make, to become more profitable. So if that's something that, you know, your growth plan of your company is looking for, then that's, you should definitely look into wholesale, but you should make sure that, you know, your backend is tight and running smoothly.
Glynis Tao
I had interviewed Misty-Dawn Paulson, who is a fashion wholesale agent recently about a similar topic. There's a previous podcast episode that I did. And she was talking about how some brands may not necessarily be ready because either their pricing or their margins are not quite, you know, they can achieve the right margins to be profitable. And also with their production in order to be able to, you know, scale up and produce the products in a timely manner that could also be an issue.
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely true. As far as the scale, you're not gonna get paid until you deliver the goods to them. So you need to be able to fund this on your own. And there's always a chance that you get stuck with inventory. So you should really be at a place where this is not a huge, it's always a risk but it shouldn't be a make or break financial burden for you. And then as far as margins go, this is a typical model.
But retailers are going to want to sell your product about 50 basis points higher than, so like they call it keystone. So it would be a 50% profit margin. And in an ideal world, you are also getting that 50%. So, you know, minus marketing costs and all of those other things, or without marketing costs and all those other things. So If your cost is $25 on a sweater, you're gonna sell it to a retailer for 50 and then they're gonna sell it for 100. So that's an ideal world.
Now, if your cost is $30, is it still something that you can achieve? You need to look at that financial planning. If your cost is $35, is this still something that you wanna do? Yeah, maybe it does make sense because maybe then you go to your manufacturer and you say, hey, if I start to bring you, you know, let's say 50,000 units a year, what does my cost go down to? And then it goes down to that $25. So is it a risk that you take in the short term, but you know, you're still making a decent profit margin. You need to look into, you need to think about all those things. You don't have as high of a marketing cost when you're going into, you know, a brick and mortar or an online wholesale, you still might have the marketing costs.
Um, so, you know, you need to weigh, weigh all the pros and cons and, and look at the financials of it all before just signing up and saying, Hey, this is something that I want to do. Smart growth.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. A question that just came to my mind as you were talking just now is I was to ask you because say a brand want to get to retail and say, you know, they can say they're selling to boutiques right now, right? Independent retailers and boutiques, that sort of thing. But then they have their eye on department stores or like big box stores. Like it's a whole different scale, right?
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah.
Glynis Tao
So how would they handle that?
Cristin Zaccareo
So I think boutiques are a really great place to start, especially if you're lucky enough to get a chain where they might have 20 stores or 10 or 15, even if it's five stores, because it's not just one location. So you're able to potentially get a different client base in each store and you can get feedback and still be really close to where the product is if you're lucky enough.
For the bigger box people, the business model is going to be similar. You're gonna want the pricing to be very similar because it's a small chance, but you don't want a big box store to go into a boutique and see their item, that item at 40% off, and then they're gonna want it to be 40% off and they might charge you for that 40% off. So the underlines of what it takes to make it are very similar. It's this production scale that you need to make sure you can handle as you go into the bigger box stores.
And in some of the bigger box stores, your payment terms might be different. So a boutique might pay you in, I don't know, I'm not as familiar with the boutique model, but maybe they pay you in 15 days. And the big box store might wanna pay you in 20 to 45 days. And then it depends on when it hits their warehouse because a bigger box store is gonna have a much bigger warehouse than just delivering it to a little boutique. So maybe then if it hits their warehouse towards the end of the month, you might not actually get into that billing cycle and it might be 60 days. So you need to make sure that all of that is palatable to you.
I would negotiate marketing costs so that you're not paying for any promotions that the big box store runs ahead of time. And maybe your product can be coupon excluded or only run in certain sales throughout the year.
You don't want your product to not be enticing to that store, but you don't want it to be on sale all the time. And you don't wanna pay back that markdown. So all of those things should be talked about upfront as you're going into those stores. And they might say, well, everyone else pays for markdowns. Why aren't you? And you can say, maybe you have a really great social following. I'm gonna, you know, have this social following that is gonna potentially bring customers into your store or, you know, what white space are you filling to the brand? Maybe you can also say, I'm gonna do events in store. So certain other things that you can offer to make yourself enticing as you're approaching them.
Glynis Tao
Okay. As you were speaking, I just thought of a whole bunch of other questions to ask you about this. Let's go back to pricing later because I have a question that addresses pricing and margins and that sort of thing. You have something called a route to market roadmap. Can you explain what that is to our listeners and maybe walk them through it?
Cristin Zaccareo
Sure. So maybe we can share it at the end of the podcast so everyone can get a peek of what that looks like. Basically, it's a way to identify, plan, negotiate, and grow your business. And it's a super simple, well, it can be a very simple way to figure out where should I look to be in wholesale and what are some things that I should think about. And this is something that I always help my clients plan out so that we can be extremely planful because you know, as you're starting out, you should really ask yourself, where do I wanna see my product? What white space do I fill for that retailer? Because you can't be everywhere and you can't be everything to everyone. And your initial, if you're starting out and you've been in no stores, you shouldn't say to yourself, I wanna be in Target, because that's just not really realistic
Down the line, that might be your goal, but why? And is there something smaller that you can start out with to test and make sure? Because as you were talking about boutiques versus brick and mortar versus big box, if you get burned by a boutique, it's a much smaller financial burden than if you get burned by a big box because you don't have your operations set. So first really look to identify where to play and what is needed for success at each retailer.
And then you can do this by initiating key introductions with priority targets. You could do this through a broker, a consultant, or as simple as reaching out to a buyer via LinkedIn. They might not always respond. And then the second step in the route to market is to plan your engagement with the retailer. So as I meant, talked a lot about operations. You should ensure you have your inventory logistics, your pricing, your marketing and then your new buying cycle in place to make sure that your buying cycle aligns with that of a retailer.
The third step is to negotiate. So what is your pricing going to look like? Are you offering the retailer better pricing than online? If so, what are they gonna do for you? Is it better floor space? Is it in-store support? Is it signage? And then what do your payment terms look like? This should be a profitable relationship for both of you. And if your white space is really valid, then you should be able to negotiate better payment terms.
And then the final step is what does growth really look like? So you can go to a retailer and say that, hey, here's what I have to offer you now, but they're always gonna wanna remain fresh and innovative. So what does business innovation look like for your company in the future and make sure you offer?
Glynis Tao
What your company is projecting and offering for growth when you're pitching retailers. What role does brand positioning and differentiation play when it comes to wholesale expansion? How can a clothing brand stand out in a competitive wholesale market?
Cristin Zaccareo
So in my experience, especially right now, the market's really tough. Consumers are extremely tricky. They're very picky right now. So I keep talking about white space, but you really need to highlight your value add to customers. And I wouldn't just talk about what, when you're pitching a retailer, I would talk about the customers because any good retailer is going to talk about putting their customers first. Um, so what can you bring to their customers and how can you cross pollinate together to increase basket size and foot traffic?
Glynis Tao
And so marketing, how does that come into play? Like, can you partner up with the retailer and to put together some kind of a marketing, you know, promotional strategies, like how does it work? Does it, is it different for different retailers or how can they approach that?
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah, so your marketing strategy is gonna look a little bit different depending on who, what retailer you're approaching. So if you're approaching a promotional big box retailer, then, and let's say you have your sweater brand, or I think if you're in a promotional big box retailer, you better have some promotional product.
So you're gonna want it to be an exclusive product so that if you do have a boutique or an online business, not going to look like you're cannibalizing that. So it doesn't need to be an extremely different product, but let's say your best seller is a black dress with a bow on the back. You're going to want to change it up a little bit, but still ensure that the retailer is getting one of your best sellers. And then that product you're going to want to, let's say add to their promotional calendar. So maybe in October for the Columbus Day sale, you're going to go down 25% and then for Black Friday, you might go down 30%.
And then when they want the product to be gone around Christmas time, you might be at 40%. But you should build in that cost that maybe at that 30% mark, you're still getting that 50% margin. They're still getting that 50% margin. So a big box retailer would call it owning at the low. So they own the product to be able to do the business at the 30% margin and still be happily profitable. Does that make sense?
Glynis Tao
Yeah, it does. And so would you advise that in this case to have a different collection or create a special makeup for this? big box retailer that's different from what you currently offer, maybe say to your smaller boutiques retailers, so that if they're doing the promo, you know, with the big discounts and stuff that it doesn't kind of cannibalize, I guess the, the stuff that you have on your website and stuff. So it's like, different enough, right?
Cristin Zaccareo
I would have it be just different enough. So so slightly different that you can call it exclusive.
because in an ideal world, you're still getting the production costs for both of those as one. So you don't have to change, you know, your tech packs are gonna change slightly, but not dramatically. So, you know, you can still go to your manufacturer and say, this is basically the same item. I wanna look at it as one so that you're not, you can still use the volume that you get from that big box retailer to help your brand overall.
Glynis Tao
Okay, that's a great strategy to use because then you have the benefit of the large volume numbers to hit your production as well as being able to create something that's separate, a little bit different from what you offer. Yeah, but it still would fall within the order, like minimum orders like in order to hit your target price.
Cristin Zaccareo
And if you get lucky enough at some point to be in multiple big box retailers, then you might have to get a little bit more creative. But at first, I think that that's a really good strategy. And depending on how picky they are, you might still be able to just be slightly different for each one.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. And from your experience, have you found like with department stores and big box stores, are they looking like do they usually buy off the line or are they looking for like something little different or they ask for you to make something different just for them?
Cristin Zaccareo
It depends on exactly what's working right now and how great your costing is. Let's say you know one of their best friends is going out of business or has just raised their costs they might take the to come up with an item besides like a sweater. They may take the woven shirt that was one of their best sellers. And now that their costs are much higher, they might give it to you and say, Hey, what's your costing on this? This was a best seller for us. Where can you be?
And I think overall, it really depends on if they're going to buy off the line or if they're going to want to develop something that's much more exclusive.
Glynis Tao
Okay. So another question I just thought of was returns. Yeah, how do brands handle that? And, you know, can department stores return something that's like, that was made just for them, right? It's just a style that was produced for them. Because I've heard stories of stores canceling last minute, and you're stuck with the order and having to pay for this now.
So is that a potential risk that brands should be aware of and how can they kind of navigate through that?
Cristin Zaccareo
It's definitely a risk. It's something that I would talk about with the brand from the beginning so that you have an idea on where they stand. So you're not, there can always be surprises but you can at least say, hey, you know I'm not taking this back. If this doesn't work, I'm making this specifically for you.
If that doesn't go and go over well with them and you feel like this is still an item I really stand by, you know, is there padding that you can do on the back end for you where let's say you have to take it back from them, do they pay for the shipping costs for it to come back to you? And then you have an exit strategy with an off price retailer.
So there's certain things that you can be a little bit planned for ahead of time, but I would say I overall try to talk to the retailer saying like, I can't take this back, this is exclusively for you. Otherwise we can't do exclusives
If you're much newer and you don't have the ability to do that, I would try to talk about, try to figure out, you know, can you charge them a little bit more for this? If I do need to take this back, I can take back X percent and you need to pay for shipping costs. So I would definitely try to negotiate.
Glynis Tao
Mm-hmm. And is that something you do to help your client? Do you help your clients with that and the negotiation process?
Cristin Zaccareo
Yes. So the negotiating and talking like a retailer is something that I definitely help my clients doing. My background is really on the retailer side, not the brand side. Although I have had fantastic partnerships with so many brands, I think the thing that has always made me really successful when I was sitting on the retailer side is being flexible and trying to understand both perspectives. And I think I really bring that to my customers as they're working through what their journey should look like.
Glynis Tao
So is there always room for negotiation? Like when you enter into a contract?
Cristin Zaccareo
You hope so. I think sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't. I had...not a client, but someone that I was speaking with that Wholefoods approached her. Um, and this is a food, food brand. So not apparel, but you know, there was really no negotiation. It was like, can you fit your price into this? Um, she had, she had a little bit, but not much. And she was like, you know, I really can't fit into this price point. You know, I have a 15% profit margin. This just doesn't make sense for me right now. Um, and there was really no negotiation, even though her product was different than that price point that they were comparing her against, she offered more value, they still weren't willing to change it.
So there's certain times where the answer on your side might be no, this doesn't make sense for me right now. I can't, they're not willing to negotiate and this doesn't make sense for my brand. And that's okay, because there will be a time where you are gonna get the growth that you need and want, but you shouldn't push it if it doesn't make financial sense. And I think that's why so many of these direct to consumer brands are struggling right now, is that it was like a growth at all costs attitude for so long and it really doesn't make sense to grow unless you're profitable. It just becomes a bigger pain the bigger you get.
Glynis Tao
Yeah. So speaking of pricing. I mean, just want to circle back to the question about like, how do you advise clothing brands to approach pricing and margins when entering the wholesale market? And what are some of the best practices in this area?
Cristin Zaccareo
So yeah, I think using that like 50%, 50% is a good starting point. I think that there's always room on your side, if 40% works for you, there are plenty of brands that do 40%. There are plenty of brands that do 30%, especially if you have no marketing costs or the marketing costs are extremely minimal with the retailer. It still might make sense for you to do that number. It might make sense for you to do 25%. So you just need to make sure that it works within your financial matrix.
And you need to make sure that your pricing is similar on your different platforms. So you don't want your retailer pricing to be a lot lower than what you're offering on your site. If you offer a 10% coupon on your site for new customers, like that's something that you should talk about with the retailer and say, you know, I'm paying for shipping costs. This is a way for me to grow my business. This is a cost that I'm absorbing. Like if this is something that you wanna do as well, that's fine, but I'm not absorbing that cost.
So there's gonna be some negotiation as far as, especially on your own site, if you're offering signup, you know, I'm gonna offer this as far as what's palatable.
Okay. So what do you, as people that you're interviewing with or speaking with, even in your own business, what do you think is the major challenge that some of these brands are having as they're trying to go into wholesale?
Glynis Tao
I think the biggest challenge that I see that the clients that I work with is the pricing. Many of them are, you know, smaller, independent brands, focusing on sustainability. So the products are most likely locally made. The costs tend to be a lot higher, right? And so they're not able to price their products in order to be profitable. Like they might not even be making even the 25% that you mentioned. And I've come across brands who are like, well, let's just, you know, we'll take a hit on our margin, maybe even take a loss, get into wholesale and hopefully eventually we'll get our numbers up. Is that a good strategy to use?
Cristin Zaccareo
I don't think so. I don't think you should ever be taking a loss. You have scale, you can lower your costs, but I mean, look at everything. Look what you pay for groceries now. Like costs just keep going up and up. So yeah, if you wanna start and say like 10 or 15%, fine. But I think the loss is so hard for me to make sense of it all. And I think that that's the problem is it was this growth that is everybody was doing, not everybody, a lot of people were doing this and making it kind of okay.
I mean, I held a wholesale workshop in July and someone asked me the question of, should I go into the retailer and buy my product so that it looks like it's turning? And you're not giving yourself a real shot. I mean, you wanna make sure that this makes sense.
I don't know if you have any of your money tied up in this, but you certainly have other people's money tied up in this. And you don't wanna create false pretenses, of can your brand actually be successful? You might need to change your business model if it's not. And for some of these sustainable local brands, the answer probably is not big box for them because I think they could do it on a really small scale.
I mean, they're certainly never gonna be like a Walmart or somebody like that. Could they get into like a Nordstrom and only be in a couple stores? Yeah, maybe. And maybe they focus on the stores that are in their regions, so they can go there and touch and feel the product and do, because it's a higher price point, they can do education sessions with the sales associates on the floor. But they should be profitable.
Glynis Tao
Oh, I agree with you. And I said, I say the same thing as well. I would never, you know, go in taking a loss from the beginning, I would always have price my products to be profitable from the beginning. If it has to be higher costs in your retail, maybe a little higher, but you have to be profitable. Like, okay, so yeah, I think we're on the same page with that.
Cristin Zaccareo
I'm curious because it's interesting when you speak with different people about what the biggest hurdles are. So I love asking that question to any client that I work with. And I think just coming from a place of curiosity as a brand owner and as a consultant is extremely knowledgeable.
Glynis Tao
Mm hmm. Yeah, because I imagine that every brand is sort of different. Right? Depends what their product is, so needs to be handled differently. And maybe not all the, you know, certain retailers might not be the right fit for them.
Cristin Zaccareo
Definitely.
Glynis Tao
Right? Because I know brands who strive to be in Sacks or big department stores, they're like, yeah, I want to do that. That's my goal right off the bat. But I mean, as a newer brand say, what would be your advice to them? If they wanted to just start off with doing wholesale right off the bat.
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah, I would say like boutiques in your area are such a great test market. And I think that the store associate is really overlooked these days. They're overworked, they're stretched, they're probably underpaid. So I think if you get into a boutique in your area, you should go in there, bring the store associate some coffee. This is something people used to do all the time and it's super prevalent in the beauty area.
Um, so it's really, these people are in charge of selling your products. So get them excited about your product. Um, if you're able to at certain times of the year, you can run contests in stores. So let's say you have a higher price point brands, your items are two, $300 each. Sell $2,000 of my product. Here's a hundred dollar gift card. Um, like what kind of things can you do to get the associates a little bit more excited about your brand?
Those are things that can be done in bigger box stores as well. They're sometimes a little bit harder to execute but all of those things get the associates but the education component of a higher price brand is so important because depending on the market it's hard for a customer just to pick something up that's three to $500 and sell it to themselves. Sometimes it's super easy, but the store associate definitely can add on to that sale maybe, or make it a lot easier.
Glynis Tao
How important is brand consistency and storytelling in the context of wholesale expansion? What strategies do you recommend for maintaining a brand's identity across different retail channels?
Cristin Zaccareo
So I think strong marketing materials are very helpful. So you should have a one pager. You might have something that's four or five pages with your brand story. It should be really enticing to both the customer plus the retailer. And that can kind of tell the story, if you know something as easy as hang tags that maybe say something, if you're sustainable, that should definitely be marketed on your product. If you're made in Canada, made in the US, made in Peru using organic materials. Like that should be on the product. That should be loud on your marketing materials that you're distributing to people as well. Um, so I think that making sure that you have consistent messaging on your marketing materials, um, if you're lucky enough to be put in advertising for free with retailers you can ask them for approval. You shouldn't be super picky. It's not gonna look like you're marketing, but it should be somewhat consistent.
If you're a brand that has a $500 jacket, you shouldn't probably be with a $20 pair of jeans. And then I would say about like running promotions, just be consistent there as well. So my brand is part of promotions, my brand is not part of promotions. And then from a margin perspective, which we talked about a little bit before, you should agree not to pay for any markdowns that the store is the promotions that the store is running those markdowns, they should be a cost that the store has to incur.
Glynis Tao
Okay. And I mean, I used to work as a product manager for a brand and we used to make a lot of catalogs, collateral, that type of thing, but physical copies of catalogs. Do stores still look for that? Like they want the physical or copies or is digital okay?
Cristin Zaccareo
I think that you should not spend a ton of money on paper, but you should, like the buyer should have some paper. They should have digital too. If you're in a couple of boutiques, give them paper because the store associates behind the register, do you need to spend a ton of money on this? No. Do you need to use like super thick card stock? No. But it should look presentable. It shouldn't be printed out and stapled probably because the store manager might have the email to your marketing material, but the associates on the floor might not have your materials. So I do think that paper is still in. So I think having both right now is important.
I think you should also ask the store, you know, how do you guys distribute marketing materials? How would you like my brand education? Because they're going to have a better insight into how they operate than me or you.
Glynis Tao
And like, would you have the opportunity as a brand to be able to present, you know, do some product knowledge training with to the associates or is that something those stores just completely take on themselves?
Cristin Zaccareo
No, I would promote that you can do that and that you're able to do that because I think that that's a value add. You know your brand like nobody else. And if you have enough money to, let's say you get into 10 Nordstrom or Saks stores and you're on the West coast and you're able to contract out, education people that they wouldn't just work for your brand, they're gonna work for multiple brands, but they can do that as well. In Southern California, if you're located in Northern California or you're located in Vancouver. So I think the education component and you saying that you're gonna take that on is a total value add to the stores. Hey, amazing.
Glynis Tao
As we look ahead, what advice do you have for clothing brands that are considering wholesale expansion as part of their long-term growth strategy?
Cristin Zaccareo
So I think walk before you run, which we've talked about. So test yourself, I think in local markets first. If you get an opportunity, let's say you're West Coast, you get an opportunity in New York, take it. But I think start out small and then go for growth.
Make sure that you have your operations and your inventory in check first. And that is just gonna make, if you're pitching a retailer, making sure that you have the foundation set is gonna make you a lot more attractive and much more credible.
Glynis Tao
Hey, we talked a little bit about software. So, just wanted to kind of circle back about that. Can you share any resources or tools that you'd recommend clothing brands to dive deeper into for wholesale expansion? You mentioned a few different things before, but can you, are there any, is there software that you recommend for brands who want to get started?
Cristin Zaccareo
Yeah, so some of the software that This, so SIN 7 is one, but it's expensive and that's gonna be an ERP and WMS, I believe system. I think starting out, you know, to do inventory planning you probably use Shopify if you're direct to consumer.
So I think creating a model in Excel for stores that is similar to how you're managing your inventory in Shopify will be helpful for projecting. You can hire, if you don't have an inventory planning team, you can hire contractors out quite quickly. It's something that I can help with as well. But then for the bigger systems, I'll send you a list of an article. I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but it basically describes different systems. I think it was Forbes, but describes different systems and what they can do. I mean, there's smaller ones, like I think ShipBob's pretty cheap.
There's some much cheaper systems and then there's some like Sin7 and NetSuite that are thousands of dollars a month. So it depends on what you can afford. But there are some that are really affordable that you can start out with. And then as you grow and scale, you get a bigger one that can do a lot more things and make your life a lot easier.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, if you have that list you can I can put a link to it in the show notes so that people can go in and look at it. Look at it. Do you have any final advice or tips to share with our listeners who are looking to expand into wholesale?
Cristin Zaccareo
No, I think, you know, it's an exciting journey wherever you are in your retail. I just use journey, but I was going to say in your retail journey. And it's you know, I think the hardest part is getting started and it's super challenging. Roadblocks are thrown at you all the time, but you know, keep trekking through. Be smart with your growth and be profitable with your growth. So, you know, I know growth is something that everybody wants as a founder, but be smart about it. You also wanna make money. So just to make sure you have everything sort of together before you expand at a much larger scale. Amazing.
Glynis Tao
Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you? Yeah, so my email is Cristin, cristin@cgzconsulting.com. You can also look me up on LinkedIn with my name that Glynis is putting in the podcast.
Glynis Tao
Yeah, all your contact information will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here today and sharing your insight and knowledge about the wholesale business with us today.
Cristin Zaccareo
No problem. Thank you so much for having me and for empowering people and women especially. It's something that I really love to do. I think that more of it can be done everywhere. I think we should all just try to lift each other up.
